Lords Sitting of 17 April 1856

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—la Exchequer Bills (£21,182,700).
2a Public Works; Public Works (Ireland).

THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT—THE FIRE BRIGADE.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that he had made inquiry on the subject of a question put to him by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Redesdale) with regard to the fire brigade attached to the House, and he had ascertained that it had been considered by the Board of Works, on the whole, not to have a mixed body of firemen and police in charge of the House, but there should be only one force for the purpose. It was ascertained that in the dockyards at Woolwich and Deptford the, fire department was placed in the hands of the police, who discharged the duty most efficiently. It was now intended that the police force attached to the House should consist of one inspector, two sergeants, and sixteen constables, in whom all the duties of the charge of the House should be concentrated, including those of the fire brigade. With regard to the police being inexperienced in this duty, he had to say that the firemen would be employed till the police were fully instructed in the necessary duties; and it was thought that then there would be ample security for the protection of the House. If his noble Friend wished to see the correspondence on the subject between the Chief Commissioner of Works and the Treasury there would be no objection to produce it.
LORD REDESDALEconfessed his entire inability to understand either the policy or the justice of the proposed change. On the contrary, he had a strong conviction that the safety of the building would not be adequately provided for unless it were confided to the care of a body of men intrusted with that duty and none other. The fire brigade were in that position.

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They were acquainted with every pipe that had been laid down, whether for gas or water; they were fully cognizant of all the duties connected with the arrangements for the security of the House, and they were in all respects as zealous and efficient as the men proposed to be substituted for them could possibly be. The new system would occasion a great increase of expense, for the men about to be brought in were exactly twice the number of those whom they would supplant. The greater part of these men had been engaged for eight years; some of them for a longer period than that. They had families, and were men whose age and stature prevented them entering the police force. Being in the service of the Government, they were naturally under the impression that their engagement was for life; but notwithstanding that they had always behaved admirably they were now cast upon the world without resources. Nay more, they were, before leaving, required to instruct the men who were to turn them out of their situations, It might be said that the engagement with these men did not differ from that with the servants of railway companies or other public bodies; but certainly no such body would, when discharging servants, require them to teach their duties to those who were to succeed them. He thought that the proposed change was one which would press very hardly upon the firemen, and would not tend to the security of the building. Nor was this only his own opinion. Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney, to whom was intrusted the whole charge of the lighting and ventilation of the House, had that morning called upon him (Lord Redesdale), and expressed his opinion that under the new arrangement the building would not be so safe as it was under the existing one. The matter well deserved the consideration of the Government, and he (Lord Redesdale) hoped that the proposed change would not be adopted without further inquiry.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that, in his opinion, the existing system of firemen was not a good one. Within the last six years, there had been a fire which exposed the building to great danger, and in connection with which it was shown that there was much mismanagement. It was most important to the safety of the building that this system should be revised and reconsidered. Those who had charge of the pipes ought also to have charge of the cisterns. When the fire to which he had alluded occurred, the cisterns were found
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to be empty, owing to the water having been drawn off for other purposes without the knowledge of the firemen, who had no control over them. Unless there was one common control over the water, both in supply and delivery—whether by policemen or firemen did not matter—the danger which had occurred six years ago might occur again.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYentirely concurred with the noble Duke, that considerable danger arose from a divided control, as had been shown by the occurrence of the fire to which the noble Duke had referred. At that time the custody of the House was in the hands of Sir Charles Barry; the Board of Works had a certain power; and the firemen were a third body, under their own head. It was now proposed that the authority of Sir C. Barry should cease, and that the whole control and guardianship of the building should be transferred to the First Commissioner of Works, who alone would be responsible for their safety. It was also thought desirable that there should be no divided authority over the men who had the protection of the buildings. If there were firemen who had to look to one authority, and policemen who had to look to another, and to give aid or not as they might think fit, there might be a great conflict of authority, and would certainly be an absence of that uniformity of action which was necessary in order to prevent the recurrence of danger from fire. Instead of increasing, the proposed system would considerably diminish, the expense of watching the Houses. The estimate of the probable expense of the united bodies of firemen under Mr. Brady, and of policemen, was £3,000; while the whole expense of the police, who would be available both for the protection of the building and for ordinary purposes, would not exceed £1,500 a year. The cisterns would be under the immediate control of the Clerk of the Works, who would be always resident in the Palace, who was an officer of the Board of Works, and who would invariably be in direct communication with the superintendent of the police, who would also be resident within the building.

TROOPS TO CANADA.
THE EARL OF ELGINsaid, I have a question relating to a matter of the utmost importance to put to the noble Lord the Secretary for War, but of which I have not given him notice; and therefore, if he should prefer it, he can answer it on another

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evening. I think it is most desirable that it should be made known, whether the rumours which are abroad with regard to a large increase in our military forces in Canada being in contemplation, are or are not correct? As I have given no notice of the question, I will abstain from adding a word of comment.
LORD PANMURE: Although my noble Friend has given me no notice of his question, yet as I believe that there is a general impression out of doors that it is proposed to send a large military force to the British North American provinces, I think it right to say it is true that it is the intention of the Government to send back to British North America a certain number of regiments, which were taken from the garrisons of those provinces at the commencement of the war; and it is not improbable that in the new organisation of the army by divisions and brigades, there may be spread over the whole of the North American provinces a number of men amounting to a small addition to the British army; but the report that these troops are being sent out for purposes of aggression is entirely without foundation. It has also been stated—and I am glad to have the opportunity of explaining this too—that large quantities of gunpowder and munitions of war are about to be sent to British North America. The fact simply is this, that at the commencement of the war we drew from those colonies almost the whole of the munitions of war which were in their stores, and all that is now being done is to replace what was drawn from thence.

THE EDUCATION BILL—QUESTION.
THE BISHOP OF OXFORDbegged to ask his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to persevere with the Education Bill which had been introduced into that House? He was not present on a former evening when the Bill was discussed, but he had gathered from the ordinary channels of information that the noble Earl had stated that he should not proceed with it till he saw what was the issue of certain events in another place. There might have been some mistake in that statement, for it could hardly be supposed that a Ministerial measure could be dependent on the events in question.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the right rev. Prelate had been correctly informed of what had passed on a former occasion, when a question was put to him with regard
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to this Bill, for he had stated that in consequence of the course taken by a noble Lord in the other House, he thought it right to postpone troubling their Lordships with the discussion of the much smaller Bill which he had laid on the table. The discussion in the other House had now taken place, and he was glad that he had waited for that discussion before proceeding with his Bill, for the main principle of his Bill was included in the Resolutions then discussed: but he did not think it logically followed that because those propositions had been rejected, a similar fate must necessarily attend his measure, which was wholly of a permissive character. It was, however, very undesirable, when measures were not likely to be carried, or at least when the Government did not see their way to carrying them, that they should be proceeded with at the risk of exciting any sectarian and angry feelings, and for those reasons he did not propose to press this measure on their Lordships' attention any further, at least during the present session. At the same time, he would say that, in the office he held, he should use every exertion to promote the spread of education, by the use, at once liberal and economical, of the means now placed at the disposal of the Government.
House adjourned till To-morrow.