Lords Sitting of 8 April 1856

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament.—The Lord Wharncliffe, after the Death of his Father; the Lord Truro, after the Death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS.—3a Agricultural Statistics.

THE STEAM NAVY—OBSERVATIONS.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKE,after presenting a petition respecting a steam postal service with the Australian Colonies, said, he wished to address a few words to their Lordships upon a subject of which he had not given notice, but he trusted that in doing so he should not be considered as unnecessarily or presumptuously trespassing on their attention. At this moment there was assembled at Spithead a very large naval force, consisting of all descriptions of vessels of war, from the largest three-decker down to the smallest gunboat. All these vessels were propelled by steam, and he understood that they were assembled for the purpose of a great naval review. Now, he was not going to make any comments upon naval reviews; he was not going to say that of all the sights he had ever seen a naval review was the most useless and the most expensive; because the Government had, no doubt, their reasons for what they proposed to do, and therefore he would not enter upon that. There was one point connected with the subject, however, that was of vast importance to the country and well deserving the consideration of the Government. It was this; that having collected these vessels of various sizes and construction, provided with steam engines of all sorts, and gun-boats of peculiar form plated with iron, an excellent opportunity was thereby presented for making practical experiments with regard to the best form of floating-body propelled by steam for the purposes
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of speedy navigation; also as to the form and construction of the various steam engines.—One of the most useful measures to the country at this particular juncture would undoubtedly be a classification of steam engines in the same manner as the; masts, sails and other stores of vessels used formerly to be classed. By this means whenever a steam engine required, say a new piston-rod, it could at once be supplied with another of precisely the same size and class, whereas, as at present arranged, if a vessel of war happened to break her piston-rod the greatest difficulty was experienced in fitting a new one, because there was no classification of size. Experiments might also be made with the view of ascertaining whether the floating batteries, plated with iron, were really suitable to the purpose for which they were designed; and whether the new steam gun-boats were really fit to go to sea with all their guns on board. Upon the last-mentioned point he confessed that he entertained very great, I doubt. His impression was, indeed, that I they would be unable to maintain them selves against a heavy sea, and that, if forced, they would go down head foremost. Further, he doubted whether the iron plates with which they were covered were capable of resisting shot; his idea was, that a thirty-two pounder would go right through them. Such an opportunity for making these experiments might not occur again, and he trusted the Government would not let it pass by without availing themselves of it for that purpose.

THE LATE LORD TRURO AND CHAN CERY REFORM.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that before proceeding to the Orders of the Day, he was anxious to set himself right with his noble and learned Friend (Lord St. Leonards), if indeed he had been considered by his noble and learned Friend to be in the wrong, upon a subject referred to by him on the night of the adjournment for the Easter holidays. On that occasion it would be remembered that a noble Marquess, not now present (She Marquess of Lansdowne), announced the presentation of the late Lord Truro's library to the House of Lords, and his noble and learned ed Friend (Lord Lyndhurst) having pronounced a warm but well-deserved panegyric upon that noble and learned Lord, he (the Lord Chancellor) added a few words—unnecessarily he admitted, but

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which he, nevertheless, thought in some degree called for—with the view of showing that the late Lord Truro had never had full justice accorded to him in the matter of the important reforms which had been effected in the Court of Chancery. What he said was, that soon after his appointment as Lord Chancellor, Lord Truro issued a Commission, from whose report those reforms emanated—two Bills having been introduced into the House of Lords for that purpose, and one in the House of Commons, the latter having reference chiefly to the finance of the Courts. Undoubtedly the two Bills by which the main reforms had been effected were introduced into their Lordships' House by his noble and learned Friend (Lord St. Leonards) when he succeeded the late Lord Truro in the Chancellorship, but he had always been under the impression that Lord Truro had given his attention to the preparation of those Bills. In this respect it appeared that he was supposed to have given to the late Lord Truro credit to which his noble and learned Friend (Lord St. Leonards) was entitled. He assured his noble and learned Friend that he had no sort of intention of depreciating his exertions in the slightest degree in the cause of Chancery reform; on the contrary, he stated distinctly that the merit of introducing and carrying the Bills through was due to his noble and learned Friend, though he had stated that the origin of the Bills was the Report of the Commission which was appointed at the instigation of Lord Truro.

AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he wished to address a few observations to the House in consequence of the strong feeling which existed amongst the great body of farmers in the eastern division of Sussex, who had presented a petition against the Bill; and he confessed he was not at all surprised that the farmers of England should entertain great suspicion of any measure affecting them that was introduced in their Lordships' House, because they had not yet forgotten the way in which they had been treated by the House in 1846. He was not prepared to go the length of saying that it was undesirable or objectionable to collect agricultural returns; but he did contend that it
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was premature to bring in an Act of Parliament rendering the returns compulsory. In some parts of the country returns were already made voluntarily, and if the Government had waited only a few years, in order to allow the farmers in other parts of the country to see that there was no danger of mischief being inflicted upon them, they might then have passed a Bill to enable them to collect these returns in a manner that would be acquiesced in by all parties. But, after all, he did not see what use these returns were to serve. It was proposed to spend £25,000 a year for the purpose, and he thought they would find in the end that the returns were a great deal too dear. Besides, in his opinion they were beginning at the wrong end. Before they proceeded to ascertain the quantity of land sown with a particular description of seed, and the number of cattle, sheep, and horses in the country, why did they not turn their attention to the amendment of the system of taking the averages upon corn? Everybody knew that a grosser delusion than these averages now were, never had existed and never could exist; and it was not denied by any one that the returns were not to be relied upon, and that consequently they were not of the slightest use. It was a matter of the utmost importance, not only to some landowners, but to the great body of the tenantry, that the averages should be fairly taken, because at this time the rents on a great many estates in England were based upon the average price of wheat and other cereal produce. The returns which were yearly laid on the table of the House were, he repeated, a gross delusion, inasmuch as a large portion of the corn sold in England was never included in them at all, and an enormous quantity of bad corn was never sent to market. He thought, therefore, that Parliament would have done better if it had, in the first place, employed the £25,000 a year now proposed to be expended for the purpose of rectifying the averages by securing correct returns. He also objected to the machinery which the Bill contemplated for collecting the returns, on the ground that the Poor Law guardians were appointed for a particular purpose, and that they ought not to have their attention drawn from that most important of all subjects, the relief of the necessitous poor, and have the power conferred upon them of collecting these returns from the farmers whose servants they were. Although, for the reasons stated, he protested

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against the Bill, and especially the penalties it imposed, which were outrageous, he did not anticipate that the measure would have the bad effect which some appeared to imagine. He would not, therefore, oppose the Motion for the third reading.
LORD WODEHOUSEbelieved that the apprehensions which had been entertained in some quarters in respect to the present measure were perfectly groundless. In his own neighbourhood, when he had explained to the agriculturists that there was no inquisitorial object in view and that the sole purpose of the Bill was only to collect for general use such facts as were notorious in each district, the objections previously felt to the measure were removed. There was no doubt that the returns to be made under the Bill would be very valuable both to the country and to Parliament.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that one point in connexion with this subject which had created apprehension was the power given to the Board of Trade to call for returns, and he wished to know how far this power would extend, whether it would be confined to the amount of produce, or whether the amount of rent paid might be also included in the schedules?
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYreplied that the power which the Board of Trade would have would be to increase or diminish the number of schedules in reference to the different crops and animals and did not extend to any question of rent. He was glad to find that the noble Duke did not intend to oppose the further progress of the Bill, and he believed that it would be found on experience that the farmers had no indisposition to give the required information. The noble Duke had said, that the Government would have done better to direct their efforts to improve the corn averages, and he quite agreed that it was very desirable to have some improved mode of obtaining them; but they could never have a fair and accurate test of the whole quantity of corn sold in the country unless compulsory returns were made of every transaction both in public and private. Since the Committee of last year the attention of the Government had been directed to the corn averages, which had been very imperfect, and directions had been given that the returns should be made with greater accuracy. That step had been followed with success, and the returns were more numerous and extensive during
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the present year than formerly. The attention of the Government was still directed to the same object; but, though it was possible to get returns of all corn sold in market towns, it was not possible to obtain returns of the quantity changing hands in private. The returns afforded a fair and accurate test of the price of corn, though they did not include all the quantity sold. The subject of agricultural statistics was fully considered by their Lordships' Committee in last Session, and the evidence proved that anything like a universal return was not to be expected without the enactment of a compulsory power; but no apprehension need be entertained that the power would be exercised vexatiously. In an analogous case—the collection of the Census—a compulsory power was given; but in no single instance bad it been necessary to exercise that power; and in the present case he believed it would be hardly necessary to have recourse to the compulsory power. With regard to the penalties, it was the wish of the farmers that the magistrates should have a discretionary power to impose them, in order that they might be sure that information would be obtained from their neighbours as well as from themselves. It gave him great pleasure to find that noble Lords on both sides of the House were impressed with the importance of this subject; and he had no doubt that the farmers of this country would readily furnish as accurate data with regard to the nature and produce of their crops as the agriculturists of Scotland had done. In conclusion he would remind their Lordships of the importance of the co-operation of the gentry and landed proprietors in the work of obtaining the information they required.
THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, that if this bill became law he should of course advise the farmers to obey it, and he had no doubt they would do so to the best of their ability; but he thought that the money to be expended in endeavouring to carry it out would be entirely thrown away.
LORD ABINGERsaid, he had not heard any statement of the benefit which was to be derived from the information sought to be obtained by means of this Bill. The farmers did not wish for it, and, although they might obtain returns of the number of acres planted in a particular manner, he could not understand how they could get information as to the produce of those acres.
Motion agreed to;
Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

INDIAN FINANCE.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE,in calling the attention of the House to the subject of Indian finance, said, he did not intend to enter into a detailed exposition of the character and amount of the taxation of our Indian empire, but only to remind their Lordships that it was high time for Parliament to consider that subject. Agreeing with Sir Robert Peel in the opinion that Indian credit was, in fact, English credit, and Indian debt English debt, he had been much surprised to find, upon referring for information to the Indian financial accounts laid before Parliament every year in pursuance of the Act of 1834, that on no occasion had it been thought necessary to print and deliver those accounts to that or the other House of Parliament. It was also a remarkable fact, that although educational and a variety of other questions were entered into by the Committee of 1852–3, yet into this great question of finance they did not enter; and he would therefore trouble their Lordships with a few figures, derived from sources that were accessible, showing the progressive state of the income and expenditure of India, both positively and relatively. In 1834, the general revenue of India amounted to £18,016,918. He would not quote its increase during successive years, but in 1851–2 it appeared, before a Committee of the other House, that the income had increased to £25,536,634, being an increase of £7,519,716. He offered no opinion upon the question whether the increase of revenue indicated the increased prosperity of the country; but of this increase £4,860, 479 was from old sources, and £2,311,237 from territories that had been acquired in the interval between 1834 and 1851. In those seventeen years the increase of debt was £12,912,607; the total debt on the 1st of May, 1834, was £38,986,720; on the 1st of May, 1851, the total debt was £51,899,327. The increase of the annual income being £7,500,000, and the increase in the debt being £13,000,000, there was nothing very alarming in that state of things unless their Lordships should think that the debt had been increased by unprofitable expenditure. It appeared, however, that £5,000,000 of the £13,000,000 of increased
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debt had been laid out in public works. During seventeen years there had only been a surplus in five years; in twelve years there had been a deficiency. He was a Member of the Government which selected and sent to India Lord Dalhousie as Governor General. That noble Marquess was selected entirely because, under all the circumstances, he was considered the best man that could be sent; and his conduct had fully justified the selection. Under such a Governor General the finances of the country would not have gone on in an unsatisfactory state, unless there was something in the system of Indian government which was beyond the control of the Governor General, and it therefore behoved Parliament to examine very narrowly into this subject. In 1848–9, the excess of expenditure over revenue was no less than £1,473,115. In that year the expenditure was increased by the operations in the Punjab. In 1849–50, there was a surplus of revenue over expenditure of £354,837; in 1850–1, a surplus of £415,866; in 1852–3, a surplus of £424,257; in 1853–4, there was a deficit of £2,044,117; in 1854–5, a deficit exceeding £2,500,000. The deficit in the years above quoted was £6,066,442, and the surplus £1,725,725, leaving a balance of deficit of £4,334,727. He was afraid that the account of the revenue and expenditure of the year ending this month would also show a deficit. If the revenue and expenditure were so badly managed under such an administrator; and if, at the end of six years, the deficit had been increased by upwards of £4,000,000, the state of Indian finance demanded the grave consideration of Parliament. The total charge in 1854–5 was £22,915,160. The total income in 1854–5, was only £20,371,450, being a diminution since 1851 of £5,165,184. There was, therefore, nothing satisfactory in the aspect of Indian finance at the present moment. But, as our territory had been much increased lately by annexation, it might be expected that the new territory would be productive of a large increase of revenue. He would not go into the general question of annexation, but he had endeavoured to extract from the papers before the House the value of the different territories annexed of late years. The total revenue of the five recent annexations to our Indian empire was £2,346,980. In three of them, Scinde, Sattara, and the Punjab, there was a surplus of expenditure over

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income of £389,521; and in the other two, Nagpore and Pegu, there was a surplus of £242,585; the balance being; £146,936 deficit. These figures did not include many military and civil charges. This was a subject which demanded inquiry, to ascertain whether the expenditure could be brought within the revenue, or the revenue raised so as to give a fair surplus over the expenditure. In the Madras Presidency, Lord Harris proposed to reduce the land tax one-third. That tax yielded £3,033,000, so that there would be a future decrease of revenue from this source of about £1,011,000. Therefore, the revenue which had fallen from £25,000,000 in 1851 to £20,000,000 in 1854, was still further to be reduced by the amount of more than a million. It was impossible to suppose that Lord Harris would propose the diminution of the land tax if he did not consider the ryotwarry system, under which it was collected, most detrimental to the country, and he believed that to be the case. But no Governor or Government could enter upon a course of material improvement, unless the financial condition of the country was in a tolerably sound state. It was said that the Government of India must make railways, that they must advance money to construct canals for the purpose of irrigation, and that they must promote other improvements; but they could not expect the Government to do those works, unless the expenditure was reduced within the income of the country. He was sure no Indian Government could of itself make the changes which he believed were necessary to effect these objects. Not only must it be done by the authority of the Home Government, but by the direction of the Ministry, and under the pressure of Parliament. Any Governor General who attempted to make large reductions of establishments would become so unpopular that he would lose all power in India. The Home Government must coerce the Indian Government into that course of action which, upon deliberation, was considered most desirable. He had stated generally the facts which justified his directing their Lordships' attention to this subject, and he hoped the Government would be able to produce the specific accounts of the total disbursements of the Indian Government for military expenditure, distinguishing payments made on account of Her Majesty's European troops serving in India from those made for the Indian army—specifying, as
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far as possible, the military charges incurved in the lower provinces of Bengal, in the North-Western Provinces, in the Punjab, in Scinde, in Pegu, and in the territories of Madras and Bombay Presidencies. The noble Marquess concluded by moving—.
"That the Accounts respecting the Annual Territorial Revenues and Disbursements of the East India Company for Three Years (1851–52, 1852–53, 1853–54,), according to the latest Advices, with a Statement of the same for the succeeding year partly estimated (delivered on the 13th of March last), be printed."
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, the Government had no objection to the production of the paper moved for by his noble Friend, but it would be difficult to estimate the exact proportion of the military charges which belonged to each of these provinces. It would be easy to give the military charges for the different presidencies and for the North-Western Provinces, and if a more detailed return could be made it should be prepared. Probably, with that assurance the noble Marquess would be satisfied. As far as he could gather from the speech of the noble Marquess, his object in moving for these papers had reference to the general question of annexation, but he would guard the House against the inference that because large military expenditure was incurred in particular frontier provinces for the protection of the whole empire the whole of that expenditure was to be carried against the income of those provinces, and the result taken as conclusive with respect to the general question of annexation. He did not anticipate from the terms of his Motion that his noble Friend would have gone into a general statement of the financial condition of India, and into that statement he declined to follow him. Whatever might be said as to the financial position of India, it could not, he thought, be very unsound, because at the present moment the Indian Government could, on its own credit, borrow almost any amount of money at the rate of not more than 4½ per cent. With regard to the excess of expenditure over income during recent years, it had, to a great extent, arisen from the carrying on of extensive public works. Some of these works might not be immediately productive, but they were matters of the first importance, without attention to which we could not hope for the progress, either moral or economical, of India. He should, for his own part, be glad to see continuous attention given by Parliament to Indian

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affairs, believing that the greatest advantage would result from it.
LORD MONTEAGLEurged upon those who were charged with the government of India the importance of affording to the Legislature regular and detailed information as to the affairs of that empire, in order that Parliament and the country might not—as they were at present—be dependent upon the result of desultory Motions moved by noble Lords or by Members of the other House for a knowledge of the condition and prospects of India. The periodical renewal of the East India Company's Charter had the very useful result of presenting an occasion for the discussion of Indian affairs, for which the Government and other persons interested in the management of our Indian empire, were forced to prepare themselves. He hoped that the Government would not be carried away by the idea that everything must be right in India because of the rate of interest at which the Indian Government could borrow money. They might rely upon it that the Indian Government would not have been able to borrow money at so low a rate if capitalists in India were not perfectly aware that there was a distinctly implied moral guarantee on the part of this country. He hoped the Government would use every effort in their power to furnish Parliament with correct information as to the financial condition of India. His object was to get such returns annually made as should enable Parliament to see how far its intentions had been carried into effect by the local government of India.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, the Government were disposed to give every information which any noble Lord might call for. His noble Friend the President of the Board of Control had recently made arrangements for the production of more complete returns than any which had yet been laid before Parliament, and made upon a better system than that which had been recommended by their Lordships' Committee. He had also added to the library of the House of Commons a very large number of detailed reports from various local commissioners, which were too voluminous to be presented in the shape of Parliamentary papers.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHdoubted whether the Government of India was able to raise money at 4½ per cent. The Four per Cents were now at 16 per cent discount, which was lower than they
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had been at any time since immediately after the news of the great disaster at Cabul. When he went to India, he found them at 16 per cent discount, but he left them at par, and he left, the revenue greater by £1,000,000 a year than it was when he went, after paying all the interest of the money he borrowed. No doubt there had been appearances of greater prosperity since, although the prosperity of the country during the time he was there was very great, for the exports and imports increased 22 per cent in two years. He was glad that their Lordships' attention had been called to this subject, for the finances of India must always be a matter of great anxiety. He did not, however, share in the apprehensions entertained by the noble Marquess in consequence of the fall in the revenue in one particular year; because even our own revenue varied very much, and the revenue of India must vary much more extensively. He must candidly confess that when he was in India, although he had gone through all the sources of revenue and had calculated them as carefully as possible, with the valuable assistance of the gentleman who was then at the head of the finances of India, and had looked forward with equal care and minuteness to the future expenditure, he had never been able to see daylight, and never could say certainly whether there would be a surplus of revenue over expenditure. Since then there had been various annexations of territory. It had been said at first that the Punjab would be a valuable acquisition, but he believed experience had modified the expectation. It had always been his opinion that the last great increase of territory which would yield any material addition to the revenue was made by Lord Clive when he annexed Bengal. That was an annexation of a rich country which required very few troops to retain it, while the others were annexations of poor countries which required very large military establishments. He would except Scinde, however, which might be called a beneficial acquisition—not that the direct revenue derived from it was sufficient to cover the expenses of the military establishment and the civil government, but because the possession of it enabled us to realise our opium revenue, and to put a stop to the smuggling of opium from the central provinces, which had materially interfered and competed with our opium trade with China. He believed the finances of India were at the present moment in an extremely difficult

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position; but he entertained the greatest hopes of their improvement from the able and honest exertions of the noble Lord who had recently gone out to undertake the government of the country. He believed that that noble Lord went out with the best possible intentions. He was an able man; he would listen to those who would give him information, and he had the power of weighing the value of the information he acquired and of applying it to the best advantage. From the personal intercourse he had had with the noble Lord before his departure, he believed that no man ever went to India with a more earnest desire to make his government generally beneficial to the people of India and creditable to this country.
THE EARL OF HARROWBYobserved that the development of the internal resources of India by means of public works afforded the prospect of a great improvement in the financial condition of the country.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHwished to bring under the notice of their Lordships a circumstance which prevented the Indian Government raising money at a low rate of interest for their own purposes. He alluded to the guarantee of 5 per cent interest given by the Government of India for making railroads in India; and, that being the case, no one, of course, would buy the Four per Cents at par, when, with an equally good security, 5 per cent could be obtained by advancing money for the railroads.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned to Thursday next.