Lords Sitting of 22 May 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Alterations in Pleadings.
2a Leases and Sales of Settled Estates; Ecclesiastical Property (Ireland); Sewers (House Drainage); Customs Duties; Spirit, &c, Duties (Excise).
Reported—Parliamentary Representation (Scotland) Act Amendment.
3a Sewers (House Drainage).

STANDING ORDERS—PROXIES— QUESTION.
THE EARL OF WICKLOWsaid, that, on the occasion of the discussion which took place in their Lordships' House last week, a question was raised as to whether noble Lords were at liberty to leave the House before proxies had been called and the division was over. It was stated that one of the Standing Orders provided that the doors should be locked during a division, but he did not find any regulation of that kind in the Standing Orders, and he had never known an instance in which a Peer, who had no proxy, had been prevented from leaving the House after giving his vote. He considered the system of proxies highly absurd and objectionable, for a most important measure might be carried or defeated by the votes of Peers who had not attended the House for months; and, for his own part, as he never held proxies, he wished to have the option of leaving the House as soon as he had given his vote upon a division. He wished to know whether any Standing Order was in existence which deprived Peers of the right of leaving the House after a division had taken place, and before proxies had been called?
LORD REDESDALEreplied, that one of the Standing Orders of the House provided that after a Question is put, and the House hath voted thereupon, no Peer is to depart out of his place, except upon a division of the House, until the House shall have entered upon some other business; and it was clear, if that Standing Order was observed, that the doors of the House ought to be kept closed until the divisions were entirely completed. It was only of late years that the practice of permitting Peers to leave the House before a division was over had grown up. He believed that a strict adherence to the Standing Order would tend greatly to preserve the regularity of their Lordships' proceedings.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the practice of the House had been that no Peer should leave his place until a division closed; and, as it appeared to be the general opinion of the House that the old practice should be reverted to, it would be necessary for the noble Lord (Lord Redesdale) to take some steps to prevent it, if he thought it improper. If, however, the

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Standing Order were not enforced, and Peers were allowed to leave their places before a division closed, there would be no possible means of going over the division again, in case the tellers disagreed as to the numbers.
THE EARL OF WICKLOWsaid, they were about to reintroduce a system that had certainly not been in practice for the last thirty-five years, without having previously taken the sense of the House upon it in a regular manner.

THE VIENNA CONFERENCES—EARL GREY'S MOTION—QUESTION.
LORD LYNDHURST: I wish to ask the noble Earl opposite what course he means to pursue with respect to the Motion which stands in his name for Friday next—whether he means to alter the course he intended to have pursued in consequence of the scene last night, of which, I believe, the noble Earl was a spectator?
EARL GREY: I can only say, in answer to the noble and learned Lord, that I undoubtedly was a spectator to the scene to which he has adverted, though I cannot say that I was an edified spectator. I can only state, further, that I am not at present aware of any sufficient reason why I should postpone my Motion; but, if any reason can be shown why I should adopt that course, I shall be prepared to consider it.
THE EARL OF DERBY: It is not for me to suggest what course the noble Earl should pursue. I understood that the noble Earl had postponed his Motion, which he had originally fixed for Monday, until Friday, in order that it might not interfere with the very important discussion that was expected to take place upon the subject in the other House, and in order that when it was brought under the consideration of your Lordships the noble Earl might have the advantage of the prestige of the eloquence displayed in the other House, as well as the powerful division by which the views of the noble Earl might be there supported. I can only suggest to the noble Earl that the motives which stood in his way in bringing forward the Motion on Monday will equally attend the bringing forward the Motion on Friday. It is certainly a matter of indifference to me whether the noble Earl brings forward his Motion on Friday or not, and I merely wish to remind him that by bringing it forward on Friday, he will deprive himself of all the advantages which it has been thought would arise from a delay.
EARL GREY: I did not postpone my motion either for my own convenience or for the sake of deriving any advantage from the debate in another place; but because it was strongly represented to me, by those who took the same view of the question as I did, that it would be disadvantageous to bring forward the Motion on the same night that a similar Motion was discussed in the other House. I must say that it was with great reluctance, and against my own wishes, that I consented to postpone the Motion.
LORD LYNDHURST: I understand that some negotiations at Vienna are still pending, and that it would inflict an injury upon the public interests to bring forward the Motion of the noble Earl until those negotiations are brought to a close. Under such circumstances, I think it desirable that your Lordships should know the state of those negotiations, and whether they are still pending or not.
EARL GRANVILLE: With regard to the question which has been put by the noble and learned Lord, my noble Friend (Earl Grey), as a spectator of the scene which has been described as having taken place in the other House, would be able to give almost as ample an answer as I can give myself. With regard to the state of negotiations at Vienna, it is not true, as has been supposed, that they have been finally closed. The Government are ready to receive any propositions that may lead to a safe and honourable peace, and they also leave themselves open to decline any terms which may lead to a contrary result. Certainly the conferences are not closed; and, under the circumstances of the case, it is for the noble Earl himself to consider what course he ought to adopt. I should be the last person to point out to the noble Earl what his duty is. It is solely for the noble Earl to consider what course to pursure, and I make no appeal to him on the part of the Government. We shall be prepared to meet the question whenever it may be brought forward, and it is for the noble Earl to consider what his public duty impels him to do on this occasion.
LORD LYNDHURST: The noble Earl says the negotiations are not closed; but are they going on? They may remain open for a twelvemonth. Have any propositions been made which are still under consideration, or have they been rejected? Is there any probability of any further propositions being made, and if so, within what time; or have the Government made up their

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minds as to the period at which there is any probability of the Conferences being concluded? I never heard anything more vague.

FIBRE COMPANY BILL.
The Order of the Day for Standing Order, No. 176, to be considered, in order to its being dispensed with, read.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKE, in moving the suspension of the Standing Order for the purpose of allowing this Bill to be introduced, observed that he was in no way connected with the Fibre Company, being neither a shareholder nor knowing anything of the parties concerned; he appeared before their Lordships more in the character of a counsel than as a person about to discuss a topic of his own. It would be well known to their Lordships that the article which constituted the basis of the manufacture of paper was becoming extremely scarce; and that at the same time the consumption of paper was rapidly increasing, having increased, between the years 1842 and 1854, from 96,000,000 lbs. to 177,000,000 lbs., and it was impossible to procure a sufficient quantity of rags to supply the demand for paper. A short time ago The Times newspaper offered a reward of 1,000 l. to any person who might succeed in inventing or discovering any new material for the manufacture of paper produced in sufficient quantity to supply the demand that had grown up. This offer led people to look about them and consider what could be done, and it was found, after various experiments, that excellent pulp and excellent paper could be produced from the refuse fibre of flax after the oil had been extracted. He held in his hand the copy of a newspaper printed upon paper manufactured of this material, from which the great value of flax as an article for the manufacture of paper would be perceived at once. In consequence of the satisfactory nature of the experiments which had been made, a company had been formed for the purpose of making paper from this article, and he now appeared before their Lordships for the purpose of asking them to permit the introduction of a Bill for their incorporation, which had already unanimously passed the House of Commons. At its entrance into their Lordships' House, it was, however, encountered by one of their Standing Orders, which rendered it necessary that three-fourths of the capital of an intended company should be subscribed before the Bill
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was read a first time in that House. That Standing Order had, however, been dispensed with in various cases of railways, and also in the case of an electric telegraph company. The object of the Standing Order was to afford a certain amount of protection to the public; but he thought that sufficient securities on behalf of the public were given by certain Acts of Parliament now in existence, and by other Orders of their Lordships' House, and he now asked their Lordships to suspend this Order, and permit the introduction of a Bill relating to a subject of so much public importance.
Moved, That the said Standing Order be dispensed with on the said Bill.
LORD REDESDALEopposed the Motion. This Bill was one seeking to establish a company with the privilege of limited liability. Now, he did not see how they could consistently relax the Standing Order in this case, unless they were prepared to relax it with regard to all fibre companies; and, if so, he did not see how they could refuse to abrogate it with respect to all companies for carrying on manufacturing processes.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he would not say that the Standing Order in question was the best that could be framed, but while it existed h should be enforced, unless a special cause was shown to the contrary. No special cause had been shown in this instance; and, therefore, he trusted the Motion would not be agreed to.
THE EARL or DERBYsaid, he did not know much of the merits of the case before the House; but it appeared to him that upon one ground, at least, it was entitled to favourable consideration. The Standing Order required that three fourths of the capital of the company to be created should be subscribed before the Bill entered the House; but this Bill wag for the expenditure of capital spread over a long series of years. With regard to the question of limited liability, he must be permitted to complain of the course which had been taken by the Government upon that subject. A Bill on the law of partnership and limited liability was announced to be in preparation as far back as November last. At the commencement of this Session, he (the Earl of Derby) asked the noble Lord opposite what was the intention of the Government respecting it, and he was then told that it was considered important that it should be settled without

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delay, and was assured that shortly after Easter a Bill should be introduced for the settlement of the whole question. But we were now approaching Whitsuntide; at all events, we were nearly six weeks past Easter, and yet no measure had been introduced upon the subject. He must say, that he could not understand why, during the whole of that time, the President of the Board of Trade had not taken up the question, and introduced a measure in this House, which, thus far, had certainly not been overburdened with business. Notice had been given to bring in the Bill in the House of Commons on Thursday next; but he very much doubted if the opportunity would be found of doing so on that day, or, indeed, until after Whitsuntide; in which case he saw very little prospect of the Bill passing into a law during the present Session.
LORD OVERSTONEsaid, he saw in Bills of this kind the first premonitory symptoms of a great disease, which he thought was likely to settle upon this country—he meant the indiscriminate desire for limited liability without fully considering or understanding the principles upon which that question rested, or what was really conducive to the public interest of the country. The Standing Order which it now sought to override was passed by their Lordships in 1824—a period well known to have been characterised by an extraordinary mania for joint stock speculations—dishonest in their purpose and dangerous to the community; and the object of this Standing Order was to protect creditors from speculators who were trading with the capital of other people. He confessed that he heard with satisfaction the assurance of the noble Lord who presided over the forms of this House (Lord Redesdale) that he should oppose the suspension of this order, because he believed that, if maintained, it would now present to the people of this country a protection against the recurrence of such embarrassments as those which led to its establishment in 1824. That danger now assumed the form of asking the Legislature to assent to Bills enabling an undertaking to be carried on, not with the capital of those who conducted it, but with the capital of others, and at the same time protecting these speculators from the repayment of that which they borrowed to the utmost extent of their property. This Bill was promoted under the pretence that there was a great demand for an article of essen-
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tial importance, and that it would be impossible to attempt to supply that demand unless the Legislature enabled capitalists to combine for the purpose of carrying out a certain invention. Now, this was a just ground for legislative interference, provided the persons calling for it came forward in good faith. The question involved two great objects—the maintenance of the high commercial character and the protection of honest creditors; and there were two principles on which commercial undertakings might be carried on—one was by the subscribed capital of the parties interested, and the other by confidence in the integrity, assuidity, and zeal of the undertakers. Great complaints were made that such was the present vicious state of the law of partnership that capitalists, anxious to enter upon a legitimate speculation, were prevented from doing so. What, however, did they find when they looked at this Bill? Why, that the very moment the persons with whom these complaints originated came into contact with the wise and just Standing Orders of their Lorships' House, which required that speculators asking to be protected beyond the full extent of the obligations they might contract should at all events be called upon to subscribe three-fourths of the capital required for their undertaking—the moment they were required to do this they asked for the suspension of that Standing Order. It was impossible sufficiently to condemn the audacity of parties who asked for limited liability on such loose and insufficient grounds. Deeply interested as he was in the maintenance of the commercial character of this country, and in the protection of honest creditors against fraudulent debtors, he trusted that a Standing Order, which he looked upon as involving this high commercial principle, would not be dispensed with by their Lordships.
EARL FITZWILLIAMagreed with his noble Friend who had just sat down that it was of the utmost importance that, in any commercial speculation which Parliament might encourage, there should be the greatest attention paid to the security of those who became the creditors of the concern. He concurred, also, with his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Derby) in the regret which he had expressed that the Government had been prevented from giving that consideration to the general subject of the law of limited liability which he had been led to believe that they would have given to it in the present Session

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of Parliament. His noble Friend who had just sat down had taken a somewhat exaggerated view of the question, and had entirely left out of view the numerous important public interests which were thwarted and impeded by the present state of the law. What he (Earl Fitzwilliam) would suggest was, that the Government should appoint a Committee to inquire into the best mode of carrying into effect the principle of limited liability. Undoubtedly it was a question which deserved to be most seriously considered, and he believed that means might be devised for establishing the principle of limited liability, and, at the same time, for securing creditors, who certainly ought to be protected, against the frauds of speculators who were trading upon the capital of others.
EARL GRANVILLEthought that it was better not to enter at that time into a discussion of the general question of limited liability; but he must say that the noble Earl opposite had pressed a little unfairly upon his noble Friend the President of the Board of Trade, who, to his (Earl Granville's) personal knowledge, had from the very day of his appointment devoted his attention to the details of the Bill which the Government proposed to introduce, which had at that time already been prepared. It was the wish of his noble Friend that that measure should be introduced at as early a period as possible, and he had wisely determined to introduce it into the other House, where alone could be found the representatives of the great commercial interests of this country. Notice had been given three weeks ago of its introduction into the other House, but it had been compelled to give way to other business, over the management of which his noble Friend had had no control. As that Bill, however, was now fixed for Thursday next, it would be better to postpone any discussion upon the general subject until it should come up from the other House. With regard to the particular question before them, it appeared to him that the arguments of the noble Earl who had introduced the subject had been directed solely against the Standing Order as it existed, and that he had not shown any special reasons in regard to this Fibre Company which should exempt it from the operation of the general Standing Order. Under these circumstances, if the noble Earl divided, he should vote against him.
LORD BERNERSdid not agree with
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the noble Earl when he stated that no special case had been made out for the suspension of the Standing Order. On the contrary, he thought that a very good case had been made out, for his noble Friend had shown the extent of the demand for paper annually, and that the supply of rags in this country for its manufacture was only equal to one-fourth of that demand, thus leaving the remaining three-fourths to be obtained from other parts of the world. The fact was, that the case was one of great emergency. The Government had promised that the blockade of the Baltic and the Black Sea should be an efficient one; and, in that event, there would be a considerable deficiency in the supply of Russian produce. It became the bounden duty of this House, therefore, by every means in its power, to encourage our own country and the colonies in the endeavour to supply the demand for that description of produce.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEbriefly replied, and observed, that considering the view which seemed to be generally entertained in the House, and that the Government had promised that a Bill for limiting liability should be introduced into the other House on Thursday next, his better course would be to wait until that Bill had received the consideration which the question deserved, and not press their Lordships to a division on the present occasion.
Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

LEASES AND SALES OF SETTLED ESTATES BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the second reading of this Bill, observed that he had already stated its principal objects to the House, and upon that occasion he had mentioned the fact that the cost of obtaining by private Bill those powers in dealing with real estates which by the present measure it was proposed to grant upon application to the Court of Chancery was from 500 l. to 1,000 l. At the time he made that statement a noble Lord seemed to doubt that the expense was so great; and he (the Lord Chancellor) had therefore instituted an inquiry, the result of which was, that he found he had stated a very moderate amount, for although there were a few isolated cases in which the cost of such applications amounted to 750 l., the majority cost much

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more, and in some instances the expenses had risen to 1,500 l. There was no good reason why people should be put to such an expense, especially as most of the applications were made at the recommendation of the Court of Chancery, and it seemed absurd that, after that Court had investigated the cases, it should have to send them to the Legislature to do that which it would be better for the Court itself to do. By the provisions of this measure he expected that the free disposal and application of property held under settlement would be greatly facilitated. He proposed to give the tenant for life, as an incident of his life estate, the power of granting agricultural leases for a term of fourteen years.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
LORD BROUGHAMexpressed his great satisfaction at the introduction of such a measure, the principle of which he fully approved, although he might have some objections as to details.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he was disposed to agree in the opinion entertained of the measure by his noble and learned Friend who had just sat down. He thought that by the powers given under it for the improvement and management of estates without incurring the inordinate expenses attendant upon private Acts of Parliament, a very valuable addition would be made to the law regarding landed property; but he had some apprehension with respect to the effect of the clause, authorising the interference of the Court of Chancery, which, it seemed to him, went further than was necessary. If that Court should have the power to authorise the sale of property, then, instead of being made instrumental for the improvement of property, it would be converted into the means of effecting the alienation of property.
LORD HATHERTONhighly approved of the measure. He was at a loss to conceive the reason why some general measure of this kind had not been passed long ago, which would obviate the necessity of passing so many private Bills, at an enormous expense, through the House. He thought that to carry out properly the objects of this measure large powers should be given to the Court of Chancery.
THE EARL OF WICKLOWthought that so excellent a measure should be extended to Ireland. The only words in the Bill to which he objected were the words "or
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Ireland," which exempted that country from the operation of the measure.
THE MARQUESS OF BATHsuggested that, previous to the clause in reference to leases being brought before the Committee, the noble and learned Lord should be prepared with instances illustrative of the mode of granting building leases in this country. He understood that a change had been made in the mode of granting them, and that the length of leases for building purposes was much shorter than was the custom some few years ago.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, he had no objection to the Bill; but he hoped that in the inquiries that were to be made under the Bill in the Court of Chancery, the same care would be given to the question under consideration as was given to the Bills brought for effecting similar objects before their Lordships' House. Unless some new regulation was introduced for the purpose into the Court of Chancery, he feared that such a relaxation of the law of settlement would be introduced as was not contemplated by the noble and learned Lord who introduced the measure.
THE LORD CHANCELLORquite concurred with the noble Lord as to the necessity of keeping a strict watch upon the proceedings of the Court of Chancery in connection with the powers to be given under this Bill. For that purpose regulations would be framed in accordance with, the practice adopted in that House. As to the power of sale given to the Court of Chancery, he thought that the Bill would lose half of its efficiency if such power were not conferred. He would also mention that the Court of Chancery would have the power of authorising the sale of an estate only when it did not appear on the face of the settlement that such a sale was contrary to the wish of the settler. He was favourable to the extension of the Bill to Ireland; but to provide for any objections that might be made to it on that ground he thought it safer to introduce the words objected to by the noble Earl (the Earl of Wicklow), which it would be much easier to strike out if the extension to Ireland were generally approved of, than to make any addition to the Bill. He would take care to communicate with the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland upon the subject, and, if practicable, he should be most happy to extend the measure to Ireland.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of

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the whole House on Monday, the 4th of June next.

RELIGIOUS WORSHIP BILL.
THE EARL OE SHAFTESBURY THE EARL OE SHAFTESBURY moved that the House go into Committe on this Bill.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONsuggested that the Committee on the Bill should be postponed until after Whitsuntide. No statement had been made as to what the object of the Bill was, and he thought that a subject of so much importance ought not to be so hastily disposed of.
THE BISHOP OF LONDONsuggested that the Bill should be postponed. It was impossible that he or any of his brethren could consent to the Bill as it then stood. He considered that it would have the effect of breaking up the parochial system, and he objected to the adoption of the measure without the introduction of some safeguard which would obviate the evils it was calculated to produce.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYobserved that he merely intended to put the Bill through Committee pro formâ.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that the Bill had been read a second time without any explanation of its objects having been given by the noble Earl, and he now proposed to put it through another stage, without explaining what the Bill was to do. He (Lord Redesdale) must now state that the noble Earl was bound to give an explanation of its provisions before he proceeded further with it.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYexplained that he was not answerable for the Bill, which had been sent up from the other House, and he now merely asked to be allowed to put the Bill through Committee pro formâ, for the purpose of introducing Amendments, and he would be prepared, on its recommittal, to make a statement to their Lordships.
House in Committee.
Amendments made.
The Report thereof to be received on Thursday next.
House adjourned to Thursday next.