Lords Sitting of 21 May 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Weights and Measures; Chimney Sweepers Regulation Act Amendment; Needlewomen, Limitation of Hours of Labour.
2a Customs Duties; Spirit, &c. Duties (Excise); Religious Worship; Parliamentary Representation (Scotland) Act Amendment; Registration of Births, &c. (Scotland).
3a Intestacy (Scotland).

RELIGIOUS WORSHIP BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY moved, "that this Bill be read a second time, with the view of its being hereafter referred to a Select Committee."
LORD REDESDALEwould not oppose the Motion, but wished to guard against its being understood that he concurred in the principle of the Bill, which was one requiring, he considered, a great deal of consideration. The Bill might, he thought, afford facility for persons being induced, by those who were discontented with the clergyman of a parish, to attend a species of

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worship which would be neither strictly private nor strictly public, and might in that way create disunion and give rise to most objectionable consequences.
Motion agreed to.
Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House To-morrow.

THE NEW FOREST—INCENDIARY FIRES.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYwished to call the attention of the Government to the deplorable state of the New Forest during the last two winters. He was sorry to say, that during that period there had been a great number of incendiary fires, not only in the forest itself, which had burned a great deal of the grass and heath all over the forest, and some of Her Majesty's plantations also, but which had spread to the neighbouring properties, several of which, including his own, had been burned. Last year the crime of incendiarism was exceedingly prevalent in the New Forest, and yet the Government took no pains either to put a stop to it or to detect and punish the offenders. From January to May, 1854, there had been no less than twenty-four incendiary fires, and in more than one instance cottages were burned to the ground, and the inmates had difficulty in escaping with their lives. But what had the Government done with a view to prevent these acts? Nothing; positively worse than nothing; for they had reduced the number of keepers, and dismissed four policemen who had been appointed to look after the depredators. Last winter these acts of incendiarism were renewed, and amongst other property destroyed was a lodge. Three weeks ago he (the Earl of Malmesbury) visited that part of the country, and saw three or four miles of the New Forest in a blaze. It was two or three days before the flames could be extinguished, and of course very considerable damage was done. This district, as their Lordships were aware, was a wild one, far removed from any large town, and not partaking of that civilisation which districts in the neighbourhood of large towns enjoyed. One would think, however, that that would have been a reason for exercising a more careful supervision; but as he had just shown, the Government had been most supine. About five or six years ago Lord Seymour brought in a Bill, which was afterwards passed into a law, for the inclosure of a considerable quantity of the New Forest, and this measure occasioned a loud outcry on the part
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of the commoners, or squatters, who were, in consequence, deprived of their pasturage; and the Bill was also accompanied with the total destruction of Her Majesty's deer. The whole management of the forest was then placed in the hands of a Commissioner. Mr. Kennedy, the late Commissioner, was now gone; and of that gentleman he might say, that he did not belong to either of the categories of official gentlemen described the other day by the noble Lord the Secretary for War, when he said that there were two kinds of men—one round men, fitted for round holes; the other, square men, fitted for square holes; Mr. Kennedy belonged to neither, for he was a three-cornered man—a most decidedly triangular man, and unfitted for any hole whatever, and it was under his iron rule that these depredations began. The whole source of the evil was this—that Mr. Kennedy, when he received the appointment of Commissioner, at once put an end to all the permissions that had been previously given to people to cut turf and pasture their milch cows in the forest. Hence a great deal of discontent and dissatisfaction had been created. In addition to the acts which he had mentioned, poaching had also immensely increased; and if Government had any wish to keep up the stock of game in the district, he could assure them that they would not be able to do so unless they changed the system and augmented the strength of the staff employed in the forest. As yet, he believed, not a single person had been detected or brought to justice for the crimes to which he had alluded; and it was only within the last fortnight that a reward of 50 l. had been offered by Government for the detection of the offenders. In these days of civilisation and improvement of all kinds, it was absurd to suppose that any district could be allowed to exist in this country that was the resort of ill-disposed persons amenable to no law. If the New Forest was to be retained as an appanage of the Crown, then the least that Government could do was to place such a force there as would be sufficient to prevent the perpetration of those crimes. In its present state he did not think the forest would be much longer tolerated by the public; it was high time, therefore, for the Government to consider whether they ought not to bring it gradually within the pale of civilisation; or, if they thought that it should still remain an appanage of the Crown, whether it might not be used as a hunting ground

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for the Queen's hounds, for it was well known that at this moment Her Majesty's hunts could not be held as formerly in the vicinity of London. The New Forest was exactly fitted for the service of the Queen's hounds; and he would recommend, therefore, that it should be made really useful for some public purpose, or that measures should at once be taken for preventing so large a tract of land, some 60,000 or 70,000 acres in extent, remaining exposed to the crimes and depredation which had occurred of late years.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble Earl was correct in stating that there had been many fires in the New Forest lately—four had occurred during the present year, but it did not appear that they were all incendiary, and one was proved to have been accidental. There could be no doubt that the extremely dry state of the ground, caused by the protracted drought, had much facilitated the operations of incendiaries, and had led to greater destruction than would otherwise have taken place. He could assure the noble Earl that there had been no delay or neglect on the part of the Government; but it was very difficult to catch the criminals, as by some means a fire might be kindled and the criminal be four or five miles distant before the breaking out of the fire was discovered. With regard to the dismissal of police, it was considered by the surveyor of the forest that it was better to have a larger number of watchers and fewer policemen; and as soon as Government heard of the fires they sent him orders to appoint as many watchers as he pleased. A reward of 50 l. had been offered, as the noble Earl stated. Three persons had already been arrested, and the cases of two of them were now before the Attorney General. The attention of the department within whose jurisdiction the New Forest came had been particularly drawn to the state of things of which the noble Earl complained, and every exertion would be made with a view to correcting the evil. With regard to the suggestion of the noble Earl, that the New Forest might be appropriated to the service of Her Majesty's buckhounds, his noble Friend the Master of the Hounds (the Earl of Bessborough) was not then in the House; but it seemed to be a very good suggestion, and he would communicate it to his noble Friend.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYwas not at all sure that men who were appointed watchers might not be the men who committed
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the crimes. The persons to be employed in that capacity ought to be strangers.
House adjourned till To-morrow.