§ THE EARL OF MALMESBURYwished to call their Lordships' attention to an occurrence which took place in the House last night, and which was of material 586 importance to their proceedings. He was sure that no one was more anxious than his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Bessborough) that the proceedings in that House should be carried on in a manner befitting the House of Lords. His noble Friend would recollect that after the division of last night had taken place, proxies were called, but by that time a large number of Peers, who usually sat on that (the Opposition) side of the House, had left without being aware that such was the intention of the Government. Now, the custom had always been—and he (the Earl of Malmesbury) considered himself some authority upon the subject, because he had had the management of divisions in the House for some years—for the party who had the majority of proxies, and were, therefore, the most likely to call them, to inform the other side that such would be the case. This had always been done in courtesy to the other side of the House, and for the sake of regularity in their proceedings. The noble Lord who managed the division on the side of the minority was always informed by the noble Lord who managed the division on the side of the majority whether proxies would be called or not; and there could be no objection to such a course being generally adopted. It appeared, however, that yesterday, probably by accident, this custom was omitted by his noble Friend who managed the division on behalf of the majority, and his noble Friend, who managed for the minority was not, therefore, made aware that proxies would be called. The consequence was, that the division being a large one, and it taking five or ten minutes to clear the bar of noble Lords who were voting outside the House, those who first passed through the wicket quitted the House before the division was concluded; and it was then felt that it would be of no use to call proxies, inasmuch as they would not give a fair idea of the division on that side of the House, so far as proxies were concerned. Under these circumstances, he would strongly recommend to the Government that in future another custom should be followed, and that the doors should be kept closed until the division was concluded. There was, he believed, an order of the House to that effect; and if it had been enforced last night, the confusion that then took place and the omission of that (the Opposition) side of the House to call proxies would not have occurred.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHdenied 587 that since he had managed the divisions on the Ministerial side of the House it had been the custom for the noble Lord who managed for the majority to give notice to the noble Lord who managed for the minority that it was his intention to call for proxies. On the contrary, the notice usually proceeded from the other side. What took place on the previous day was this. He entered as many proxies as he had, and his noble Friend who managed on the other side did the same; and it was clearly understood during the whole evening that proxies would be called. After the division, he and his noble Friend walked up the House together, and when he had got just below the gangway he called out as loud as possible "Proxies," believing that all Peers present heard what he said. He then went up near to the throne, in order to prevent Peers on that side of the House who had proxies from leaving the House. To his surprise, he saw a number of Peers on the opposite side leaving the House; but of course it was no business of his to prevent them. He then went to the table, but his noble Friend on the other side did not appear for a considerable time. He could assure the House that he had not the slightest wish to act unfairly; but no one could blame him for endeavouring to secure as large a majority as possible for his own side.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, there was not the slightest intention to throw any blame on the noble Earl opposite. The fact was, that in accordance with the practice of modern days—and he thought it a very useful practice—proxies were now seldom called for; and as they had become the practice rather than the rule, he thought it was very desirable that previous notice should be given when proxies were intended to be called for, rather than when not. At any rate, there should be a clear understanding between the two sides of the House on the subject, in order to prevent any future mistakes. He thought it very desirable to adopt the suggestion of his noble Friend, that the doors of the House should be closed while a division was going on.
§ EARL GRANVILLEalso thought the suggestion of the noble Earl on this point well worth adopting. He was glad that any intention to impute blame to his noble Friend had been disclaimed. The noble Earl had said that the practice of calling proxies had now become very rare; and he could not help remarking that he could 588 hardly conceive circumstances in which it was more natural for the Government to call for proxies than in order to show, not only to the country, but to the whole world, that they had the support of a decisive majority of independent Peers on a question of great importance, and the effect of a defeat upon which must have been (as the noble Earl opposite had intimated on the previous evening), to substitute another Government in their place. He thought, when he saw noble Lords opposite leaving, that they were of opinion that a majority of forty-four for the Government was sufficient for one evening, and they did not wish to swell that number by handing in proxies. However, the reason of what had taken place had now been satisfactorily explained, and it appeared that there had been a misapprehension with regard to proxies which he trusted would not happen again.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYAfter the observations of the noble Earl, perhaps he will give notice whether he intends to call for proxies on Monday evening.
§ EARL GRANVILLEIf the noble Earl divides the House, we shall unquestionably.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYThat I certainly shall; but I expect to have the pleasure on that occasion of dividing with my noble Friends opposite.
§ LORD REDESDALEwished to call the attention of their Lordships to the presence last night, contrary to their Lordships' orders, of a large number of ladies in portions of the House not set apart for their reception, which was attended, he must say, with a very prejudicial effect to the general appearance of the House. The habit of surrounding a house of debate with that which was, no doubt, most beautiful, but which here was out of place, made their Lordships' House look more like a casino than anything else, and was not advantageous to the discussions carried on there. He trusted that this would not he repeated, for he knew with respect to one noble Lord, who would have spoken last night, that he expressed an unwillingness to do so, on account of having to address their Lordships surrounded by an audience of that kind. In future he hoped the admission of ladies would be confined to that part of the House to which they were properly admitted by the orders of the House.
§ EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he remembered once seeing a French farce, in which an English Milord was the principal character, 589 and he was represented as objecting very much to the presence of ladies at dinner, because he said they were displeasing to his eyes. Now, he never knew before this evening the original of that English Milord. He must also add, that he believed all their Lordships had not the advantage which his noble Friend seemed to possess, by frequenting the casinos, of enjoying those views of the female sex which his noble Friend wished to deprive that House of. He, however, accepted with great pleasure his noble Friend's satisfactory explanation why some of the speeches delivered on the other side of the House last night, were, in the opinion of the supporters of Ministers, much less effective than they usually were.