Lords Sitting of 7 May 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Fisheries (British Islands and France); Church Patronage Transfer.
2a Affirmations (Scotland); Income Tax.

THE CRIMEAN MEDALS—QUESTION.
LORD VIVIANbegged to ask the noble Lord the Minister of War how it happened that the issue of the medals for Alma, Balaklava, and Inkerman had been so long

177
postponed? The fortune of War had already carried to their last account many of the gallant men who had helped to gain the victories won in the Crimea, and he hoped, therefore, that rewards intended to be bestowed upon them would not be longer delayed.
LORD PANMUREwas able to inform the noble Lord that in the course of a week or two the Crimean medal, with the clasps for Alma, Balaklava, and Inkerman, would be ready; while he could assure their Lordships that no one regretted more than he did the delay which had taken place in their preparation. With regard, however, to the higher honours to be conferred on the officers, namely, the decoration of the Order of the Bath, the delay which had arisen in bestowing them originated in the, as yet, non-fulfilment of the prescribed rules of the Order. For, as their Lordships might be aware, according to those rules, it was requisite that the names of all the officers who were to receive the decoration should first be mentioned in the public despatches, and then inserted in the Gazette. In the present case that had not, up to this time, been done, and hence the delay. But, in order to prevent any further delay taking place, he had written to Lord Raglan, calling upon him to forward a despatch, enclosing the names of all the officers whom he considered entitled to receive that distinction.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYhoped that for the future they would learn a lesson from their enemies. Their Lordships might perhaps be aware that at the present moment there were in London more than one Russian medal, with the stamp of "Inkerman" upon it, granted to Russian soldiers for distinguished bravery in that action. Now that circumstance proved that in other countries greater dispatch could be used in the preparation of medals than in England.
LORD PANMUREsaid, the fact of the Russian army having already received a medal for Inkerman was easily explained. It was well known that a medal for Sebastopol was actually prepared at the moment of the battle, and all that the authorities had to do was to affix the name of Inkerman to the medal with means existing on the spot.
EARL GREYhoped that due caution would be observed in the distribution of the honours of the Bath. The rule which
178
required that the names of the persons who received the Order of the Bath should have appeared in the Gazette was adopted with the view to prevent that honour being conferred, except in cases of most distinguished service; but, in the present instance, he dreaded very much, unless that consideration was kept in view, the mention of names in the Gazette would be far more indiscriminate than upon former occasions. In the Peninsular war the Duke of Wellington was most careful only to report the names of those for that honour who had done some especial service. By degrees, however, the practice of mentioning names in the Gazette had come to be so extended, that the published list was tantamount simply to a statement of the officers engaged in the particular service recorded. He was much mistaken, however, if a perseverance in the practice would not tend to render the honour valueless in the eyes of those on whom it was conferred; while, at the same time, he could not help thinking that this calling upon Lord Raglan to state in a despatch the names of all the officers whom he deemed worthy of the honour, would conduce to increase the mischief rather than otherwise. If it was determined that all officers who had distinguished themselves should receive the decoration of the Bath, the best course would have been to advise Her Majesty to issue a new statute providing for their appointment, and dispensing with the particular portion of the original statute which caused the present delay. Such a course would have been by no means unprecedented, as especial statutes had constantly been issued where the ordinary ones were not sufficient to meet the demands of the moment.

AFFIRMATIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
LORD CAMPBELL, in moving that this Bill be now read a second time, said, that their Lordships would have no difficulty in sanctioning a measure the object of which was to extend to Scotland an advantage now enjoyed in the rest of the United Kingdom, and to allow witnesses appearing in a court of justice, who had conscientious scruples to the taking of oaths, when that was proved to the satisfaction of the presiding Judge, to make affirmation instead. He had been informed by Members of the right reverend bench that those scruples were not confined to Dissenters, but were shared in by many who

179
were sincere members of the Church of England, and who grounded their objections on the words of our Lord, as well as on the phraseology of the Thirty-nine Articles. The Bill which provided for the satisfaction of those scruples as regarded England, by the last clause in it expressly exempted Scotland; but the fact was, that that those scruples were more prevalent in Scotland than in England. The English Bill confined the power of dispensing with oaths to courts of civil judicature; whereas by the present Bill it would extend also to criminal courts: but he should propose in Committee to restrain the enacting clause to courts of civil judicature, leaving Her Majesty, at the same time, power to extend it to criminal courts by Order in Council, if it were considered advisable.
THE EARL OF WICKLOWthought that their Lordships could hardly be aware of the extent to which the English Bill had been altered in the House of Commons. Regardless of the feeling which had been over and over again expressed by their Lordships with regard to Lord Denman's and other similar Bills, they had so altered it that every individual in this kingdom who chose to say that he had a conscientious objection to taking an oath, whether in a court of justice, on affidavit, or any court of record, would be at liberty, with the consent of the Judge, to make an affirmation instead of an oath. No doubt, if the measure were a good one for the rest of the kingdom, it should be extended to Scotland, He asked their Lordships to contrast their proceeding in the present instance with that which they adopted in another, While oaths were about to be dispensed with in every court of justice in the kingdom, their Lordships still tenaciously adhered to the necessity of every member of the House taking oaths at the table which he might believe to be false and improper. He trusted that in a short time their Lordships would no longer be called upon to take those oaths, to which So many Peers conscientiously objected; for how was it possible to assert that the Pope had no spiritual authority in this country, when every one knew that he had, and that we endowed schools and colleges for the express purpose of cultivating Roman Catholicism?
LORD CAMPBELLwished to set his noble Friend right in one particular. The only alteration which the Commons had
180
made in the Bill of last year was to extend it to affidavits, which it did not include when it left their Lordships' House.
Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.
House adjourned till To-morrow.