HL Deb 01 May 1855 vol 137 cc2037-42
EARL TALBOT

said, he understood great doubts had been expressed with regard to the efficiency of the floating batteries recently prepared—first, with reference to their construction, and next, in regard to the effect that might be produced upon them by the shot and shell of the enemy. He wished to ask the noble Lord at the head of the War Department who was the designer of the floating batteries which were being built for Her Majesty's service, and if the project had been submitted to any scientific men or to the Surveyor General of the navy; and, also, if any experiment had been made with a view of testing the efficacy of the plates with which those batteries were constructed in resisting shot?

LORD PANMURE

said, that the object of the batteries to which the noble Earl had referred was to enable naval armaments to be brought in contact with stone fortifications. He was not able to say who was the projector of them, but experiments had been made with shot at a short distance upon plates formed in a similar way to those with which those batteries were constructed, and the success of those experiments was such as to justify the Government in ordering a certain number to be built. The opinion of the public seemed to be unfavourable with regard to their utility, but he trusted that they would prove to be more successful than appeared to be generally expected.

THE EARL OF HARDWICKE

thought it was hardly possible to receive a more unsatisfactory answer to a question than that which had been given by the noble Lord opposite. He was aware that questions of this kind were not generally palatable, and there might be details which it would be for the interest of the country not to enter into at present. He agreed with the noble Lord that this was a great experiment they were about to try, namely, to ascertain the effect of shot upon iron-plated vessels, and it must be considered that it was one of great interest. It had been arranged to construct in this country a certain number of these vessels, and he understood that the Emperor of the French was also to construct a similar number. It did not matter who was the designer of these bat- teries, but there was a question involved which affected the finances of the country and the success of the experiment, and they should all feel certain, whoever was the designer of the general system, that, at all events, the science of the country had been applied to the construction of these vessels. He had on that day proceeded to Woolwich to inspect two of these ships, and, without referring to the opinion of any other person, he would venture to state what his own opinion was with regard to the construction of these vessels. He would entirely put out of the question the beauty of form, because that was not a matter of importance, merely observing that nothing could be more unsightly than they were; they were entirely flat-sided, and that description of form he thought would do extremely well, and be very appropriate. He would put entirely out of sight, also, their powers of speed and of locomotion, and would merely deal with them as floating batteries that were to be transported to some distant region as a means of attack on fortresses. He took the trouble to measure the distance of the lower sill of the midship port from the water line in one of these ships, and when he did so, she had only on board her engines, empty boilers, and masts—she had no guns, or stores, or a single thing of any description, and was completely swept—and yet the lower sill was only 4 feet 6 incites from the water's edge, and her future immersion he could not calculate at less than I foot when she had received the whole of her cargo—shot, shell, ammunition, and water. If they allowed an immersion of I foot, and that he considered was the smallest that could be allowed, that would bring the lower sill within 3 feet 6 inches of the water's edge. He ventured to assert that that distance of the lower sill from the water was not a safe distance, and they must have the guns secured and the ports caulked for the purpose of transporting her to the Baltic. It appeared that the application of science had been omitted, fey she might have been a better vessel, with a larger power of flotation; and he would venture to say that she was a failure with respect to her powers of flotation. This consequence would also arise, namely, that she would draw more water than was intended. The second point that must strike the beholder was, that the iron plates by which her sides were covered were so placed that they touched each other. They were 4½inches thick. They touched each other throughout, and anybody who knew anything of the expansion and contraction of iron must know perfectly well that it was always in motion. With the sun shining upon it, the expansion of iron was enormous, and it contracted at night. Those plates ought not to touch; they should be a distance of at least half an inch apart, and by that precaution they would have space for expansion and contraction. The effect of the mode of construction that had been adopted would be to loosen the plates when they were brought under the fire of a heavy battery; those plates, being malleable, would suffer in the way that iron did under the hammer on the anvil, and would begin to move about. They would spread with the blows, and would be broken, in all probability. The plates should be placed at a small distance from each other, to prevent the possibility of expansion or contraction acting detrimentally, and that would also prevent the effect of the blow from doing injury to the plate itself. These points appear to have been entirely overlooked, and science had been altogether neglected in the construction of these vessels—the power of flotation was not sufficient, and the treatment of the metal had not been proper. The neglect of all scientific precaution was even more apparent when he looked at these vessels as the means of inflicting serious injury upon an enemy. There was no contrivance, for instance, for protecting the men on the upper deck from those whom they were assailing. No doubt, it had been intended originally to cover the decks with iron, but he apprehended—owing to their small power of flotation—that the builders had not ventured to do so. The consequence was that a parabolic shell, if sent against them, would go completely through them. There was no protection whatever afforded to the men at the wheel, or to the officers who were to conduct the operations on board; and there were numerous other matters of detail which appeared to have been wholly overlooked. The means of working the cables, for example, were remarkably defective, those at one end being adapted in a different mode from those at the other. He would not enter into all these details, but they all went to show that science had been neglected in the construction of these vessels. Looking seriously at all these matters, he was driven to the conclusion that there was a deficiency of science in the naval departments of this country. Circumstances which went to prove this occurred nearly every day. A short time since he had alluded to the upsetting of a vessel, owing to the centre of gravity being too high; and, in order to remedy that defect, the authorities had sacrificed 250 tons of floating power by fixing that weight of asphalte in her bottom. He believed that there existed knowledge and zeal in the naval department of this country, but there was also a something existing which rendered that knowledge and zeal nugatory, much to the detriment of the naval service.

EARL GREY

regretted that his noble and gallant Friend should have considered it necessary to enter into this question at so much length; for, although he quite agreed that if a mistake had been made by the Admiralty, or there were grounds for believing that there was a want of scientific skill in the general conduct of any portion of the business of that department, it was a very fit subject to bring under their Lordships' notice, he must say that, while experiments or improvements were in progress, discussions and criticisms in their Lordships' House did not very much tend to facilitate their completion, or enable the department to bring them to any practical result. The Government were very properly held responsible for the success or failure of their measures, and, if they were to continue to be held responsible, they ought, in common fairness, to be allowed a degree of freedom in taking such measures as they thought fit; which it was quite impossible they could obtain, if, while they were engaged in conducting the business of that department and their measures were still in progress, noble Lords should come down to that House, and before the utility of any measure had been practically tested and its wisdom established, state their views of the disadvantages or advantages of the particular plan adopted by Her Majesty's Government, and enter into a long explanation of its various points. Such a course was the more objectionable, for it was perfectly clear, from the observations of his noble Friend, that he could not enter into a discussion upon the subject, and detail the various inspections which he had made of these floating batteries, without giving information as to the mode of their construction, which might be extremely advantageous to the enemy. It was quite impossible that either in their Lordships' House, or in the other House of Parliament, they could interfere, without inconvenience, with the details of the business of the Executive Government. If they attempted to do so, the result would be no other than injurious; and he was persuaded, from his noble and gallant Friend's high professional character, any suggestion which he might transmit to the Board of Admiralty would meet with every attention, and would be far more likely to advance the public interests than if introduced in the shape of discussion or criticism in their Lordships' House.

THE EARL OF DERBY

did not see that his noble and gallant Friend behind him (the Earl of Hardwicke) was open to the attack made on him by the noble Earl opposite, for they were not now interrupting any plan or project contemplated by the Government, or interfering in any way with its operations. On the contrary, noble Lords on his side of the House had shown by their conduct that they had not the slightest wish to interfere with the measures which the Government had thought necessary to adopt in reference to the present war. But these batteries, which were the subject of observation, were not now projects, being actually carried into operation, and were, therefore, open to the examination and criticism of any one. He was informed that they had cost something like 300,000l., and it was very important that they should have the information which could be brought to bear upon them placed before their Lordships by those possessing the high professional knowledge of his noble and gallant Friend. That noble Earl had inspected them; and he now pointed out what he considered the various defects in their construction, and the grounds upon which he conceived that they would not answer the expectations of the country. His noble Friend, therefore, had a right to ask the Government whether the designs for these batteries had been submitted to and approved by the scientific portion of the service of the country. If they had been so submitted and approved, then the scientific department of the navy would be mainly responsible for their failure or success; and his noble Friend was perfectly justified in stating, by way of warning to the Government, the reasons for his apprehension of failure, so that the Government might not go head over heels incurring an enormous expense for the construction of batteries which there was reason to believe were unscientific and inefficient. No subject could be more fit for discussion. It was proposed by the Government to enter into a new and experimental mode of naval warfare, involving an enormous expense, and the means which they adopted, in the opinion of a man of professional knowledge like his noble Friend, were not calculated to answer the purpose for which they were invented. He could not think that the fact of the construction of these vessels becoming known in Russia, in consequence of the observations of his noble Friend, should be a ground for not inquiring into these matters, for there could be no doubt that everything relating to them had been known in Russia from the moment that they had been projected. He must confess that lie thought his noble and gallant Friend was only discharging a duty to his country by thus publicly calling attention to what was doubtful as regarded the efficiency of these batteries.