Lords Sitting of 1 May 1855

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Lord Bishop of Meath.
PUBLIC BILL.—1a Loan.

FEES IN THE COURT OF CHANCERY.
LORD LYNDHURSTbegged to call the attention of his noble Friend on the woolsack to a subject of great importance to solicitors, and not less so to the suitors of the Court of Chancery. The matter was rendered of still more importance in consequence of a Bill now pending in the other House of Parliament, which would add a very extensive jurisdiction to the already extensive jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery. The subject was that of fees paid to solicitors in the Court of Chancery. He was told that his noble Friend on the woolsack was about to institute some investigation on the subject, and to introduce some alteration; and if that
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were so, he (Lord Lyndhurst) should not then give notice of Motion on the subject, as he had intended, but await the result of the inquiry. He wished to know from his noble Friend whether the fact was as he had stated; and if so, who were the persons to whom the investigation was to be confided?
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the only error into which his noble and learned Friend had fallen was, that he supposed he (the Lord Chancellor) was about to institute an investigation; but the fact was, that he had already set such investigation on foot. He felt the subject was one of extreme importance. It was of importance to the solicitors, and it was not less so, as his noble Friend had stated, but in fact more important, to the suitors of the Court. That the solicitors were placed in a position that was unsatisfactory no one could doubt, but it was always found that, unsatisfactory as the present was proved to be, it was difficult to discover another that would be more satisfactory. But from time to time certain alterations had been made; and some months ago he requested the Master of the Rolls, who took an interest in the matter, to look into the subject, and see if he could suggest any improvement. The Master of the Rolls had done so, and having consulted various solicitors, he made a report, which he (the Lord Chancellor) received about two weeks ago, on the first day of term. He found from that report that the Master of the Rolls had investigated the subject very closely, but, hampered as he was with other business, he (the Lord Chancellor) did not like to ask him to pursue the inquiry further. The Master of the Rolls, indeed, said he had so many matters in hand that, although he would not shrink from the investigation, he would rather be released from it. He then had recourse to Lord Justice Turner and Vice Chancellor Wood, and put a paper into their hands, and had a conversation with them on the subject. These learned persons had very kindly undertaken to make the investigation, and he had united with them one of the Taxing Masters—he thought it was Master Follett—and put him in communication with them. He had also joined with them Master Wharton, one of the Masters of the Court of Exchequer, and a gentleman of whom it was impossible to speak too highly—and they had told him, that without any formal commission being issued, they would examine

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into the matter, and see if they could make any improvement in the scale of fees, or devise any manner in which the scale could be arranged.

THE WAR—FLOATING BATTERIES.
EARL TALBOTsaid, he understood great doubts had been expressed with regard to the efficiency of the floating batteries recently prepared—first, with reference to their construction, and next, in regard to the effect that might be produced upon them by the shot and shell of the enemy. He wished to ask the noble Lord at the head of the War Department who was the designer of the floating batteries which were being built for Her Majesty's service, and if the project had been submitted to any scientific men or to the Surveyor General of the navy; and, also, if any experiment had been made with a view of testing the efficacy of the plates with which those batteries were constructed in resisting shot?
LORD PANMUREsaid, that the object of the batteries to which the noble Earl had referred was to enable naval armaments to be brought in contact with stone fortifications. He was not able to say who was the projector of them, but experiments had been made with shot at a short distance upon plates formed in a similar way to those with which those batteries were constructed, and the success of those experiments was such as to justify the Government in ordering a certain number to be built. The opinion of the public seemed to be unfavourable with regard to their utility, but he trusted that they would prove to be more successful than appeared to be generally expected.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEthought it was hardly possible to receive a more unsatisfactory answer to a question than that which had been given by the noble Lord opposite. He was aware that questions of this kind were not generally palatable, and there might be details which it would be for the interest of the country not to enter into at present. He agreed with the noble Lord that this was a great experiment they were about to try, namely, to ascertain the effect of shot upon iron-plated vessels, and it must be considered that it was one of great interest. It had been arranged to construct in this country a certain number of these vessels, and he understood that the Emperor of the French was also to construct a similar number. It did not matter who was the designer of these bat-
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teries, but there was a question involved which affected the finances of the country and the success of the experiment, and they should all feel certain, whoever was the designer of the general system, that, at all events, the science of the country had been applied to the construction of these vessels. He had on that day proceeded to Woolwich to inspect two of these ships, and, without referring to the opinion of any other person, he would venture to state what his own opinion was with regard to the construction of these vessels. He would entirely put out of the question the beauty of form, because that was not a matter of importance, merely observing that nothing could be more unsightly than they were; they were entirely flat-sided, and that description of form he thought would do extremely well, and be very appropriate. He would put entirely out of sight, also, their powers of speed and of locomotion, and would merely deal with them as floating batteries that were to be transported to some distant region as a means of attack on fortresses. He took the trouble to measure the distance of the lower sill of the midship port from the water line in one of these ships, and when he did so, she had only on board her engines, empty boilers, and masts—she had no guns, or stores, or a single thing of any description, and was completely swept—and yet the lower sill was only 4 feet 6 incites from the water's edge, and her future immersion he could not calculate at less than I foot when she had received the whole of her cargo—shot, shell, ammunition, and water. If they allowed an immersion of I foot, and that he considered was the smallest that could be allowed, that would bring the lower sill within 3 feet 6 inches of the water's edge. He ventured to assert that that distance of the lower sill from the water was not a safe distance, and they must have the guns secured and the ports caulked for the purpose of transporting her to the Baltic. It appeared that the application of science had been omitted, fey she might have been a better vessel, with a larger power of flotation; and he would venture to say that she was a failure with respect to her powers of flotation. This consequence would also arise, namely, that she would draw more water than was intended. The second point that must strike the beholder was, that the iron plates by which her sides were covered were so placed that they touched each other. They were 4½inches thick. They touched each

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other throughout, and anybody who knew anything of the expansion and contraction of iron must know perfectly well that it was always in motion. With the sun shining upon it, the expansion of iron was enormous, and it contracted at night. Those plates ought not to touch; they should be a distance of at least half an inch apart, and by that precaution they would have space for expansion and contraction. The effect of the mode of construction that had been adopted would be to loosen the plates when they were brought under the fire of a heavy battery; those plates, being malleable, would suffer in the way that iron did under the hammer on the anvil, and would begin to move about. They would spread with the blows, and would be broken, in all probability. The plates should be placed at a small distance from each other, to prevent the possibility of expansion or contraction acting detrimentally, and that would also prevent the effect of the blow from doing injury to the plate itself. These points appear to have been entirely overlooked, and science had been altogether neglected in the construction of these vessels—the power of flotation was not sufficient, and the treatment of the metal had not been proper. The neglect of all scientific precaution was even more apparent when he looked at these vessels as the means of inflicting serious injury upon an enemy. There was no contrivance, for instance, for protecting the men on the upper deck from those whom they were assailing. No doubt, it had been intended originally to cover the decks with iron, but he apprehended—owing to their small power of flotation—that the builders had not ventured to do so. The consequence was that a parabolic shell, if sent against them, would go completely through them. There was no protection whatever afforded to the men at the wheel, or to the officers who were to conduct the operations on board; and there were numerous other matters of detail which appeared to have been wholly overlooked. The means of working the cables, for example, were remarkably defective, those at one end being adapted in a different mode from those at the other. He would not enter into all these details, but they all went to show that science had been neglected in the construction of these vessels. Looking seriously at all these matters, he was driven to the conclusion that there was a deficiency of science in the naval departments of this country. Circumstances which went to prove this occurred nearly
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every day. A short time since he had alluded to the upsetting of a vessel, owing to the centre of gravity being too high; and, in order to remedy that defect, the authorities had sacrificed 250 tons of floating power by fixing that weight of asphalte in her bottom. He believed that there existed knowledge and zeal in the naval department of this country, but there was also a something existing which rendered that knowledge and zeal nugatory, much to the detriment of the naval service.
EARL GREYregretted that his noble and gallant Friend should have considered it necessary to enter into this question at so much length; for, although he quite agreed that if a mistake had been made by the Admiralty, or there were grounds for believing that there was a want of scientific skill in the general conduct of any portion of the business of that department, it was a very fit subject to bring under their Lordships' notice, he must say that, while experiments or improvements were in progress, discussions and criticisms in their Lordships' House did not very much tend to facilitate their completion, or enable the department to bring them to any practical result. The Government were very properly held responsible for the success or failure of their measures, and, if they were to continue to be held responsible, they ought, in common fairness, to be allowed a degree of freedom in taking such measures as they thought fit; which it was quite impossible they could obtain, if, while they were engaged in conducting the business of that department and their measures were still in progress, noble Lords should come down to that House, and before the utility of any measure had been practically tested and its wisdom established, state their views of the disadvantages or advantages of the particular plan adopted by Her Majesty's Government, and enter into a long explanation of its various points. Such a course was the more objectionable, for it was perfectly clear, from the observations of his noble Friend, that he could not enter into a discussion upon the subject, and detail the various inspections which he had made of these floating batteries, without giving information as to the mode of their construction, which might be extremely advantageous to the enemy. It was quite impossible that either in their Lordships' House, or in the other House of Parliament, they could interfere, without inconvenience, with the

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details of the business of the Executive Government. If they attempted to do so, the result would be no other than injurious; and he was persuaded, from his noble and gallant Friend's high professional character, any suggestion which he might transmit to the Board of Admiralty would meet with every attention, and would be far more likely to advance the public interests
than if introduced in the shape of discussion or criticism in their Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF DERBYdid not see that his noble and gallant Friend behind him (the Earl of Hardwicke) was open to the attack made on him by the noble Earl opposite, for they were not now interrupting any plan or project contemplated by the Government, or interfering in any way with its operations. On the contrary, noble Lords on his side of the House had shown by their conduct that they had not the slightest wish to interfere with the measures which the Government had thought necessary to adopt in reference to the present war. But these batteries, which were the subject of observation, were not now projects, being actually carried into operation, and were, therefore, open to the examination and criticism of any one. He was informed that they had cost something like 300,000 l., and it was very important that they should have the information which could be brought to bear upon them placed before their Lordships by those possessing the high professional knowledge of his noble and gallant Friend. That noble Earl had inspected them; and he now pointed out what he considered the various defects in their construction, and the grounds upon which he conceived that they would not answer the expectations of the country. His noble Friend, therefore, had a right to ask the Government whether the designs for these batteries had been submitted to and approved by the scientific portion of the service of the country. If they had been so submitted and approved, then the scientific department of the navy would be mainly responsible for their failure or success; and his noble Friend was perfectly justified in stating, by way of warning to the Government, the reasons for his apprehension of failure, so that the Government might not go head over heels incurring an enormous expense for the construction of batteries which there was reason to believe were unscientific and inefficient. No subject could be more fit for discussion. It
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was proposed by the Government to enter into a new and experimental mode of naval warfare, involving an enormous expense, and the means which they adopted, in the opinion of a man of professional knowledge like his noble Friend, were not calculated to answer the purpose for which they were invented. He could not think that the fact of the construction of these vessels becoming known in Russia, in consequence of the observations of his noble Friend, should be a ground for not inquiring into these matters, for there could be no doubt that everything relating to them had been known in Russia from the moment that they had been projected. He must confess that lie thought his noble and gallant Friend was only discharging a duty to his country by thus publicly calling attention to what was doubtful as regarded the efficiency of these batteries.

THE BURIAL ACTS.
THE EARL OF SANDWICH presented a petition from inhabitants of Huntingdon, asking for an alteration of the law respecting the burial of the dead (16 & 17 Vict. c. 134). They complained of the operation of certain clauses in the Acts which prevented the opening of vaults, and a correspondence had taken place between them and the Home Office on the subject. The vaults might have been opened without the least prejudice to the health of the inhabitants, and he considered, therefore, that a great injustice and hardship had been inflicted upon the owners. He begged to ask whether it was the intention of the Government to send down inspectors to examine the vaults, and to grant licences for interment in them?
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that the notice put by the noble Earl on the notice paper had not given sufficient indication of the nature of the question which he intended to put, and he was afraid there was no Member of the Government present in the house who could give a reply off-hand. He had to request, therefore, that the noble Earl would allow the question to stand over till some subsequent day.
THE BISHOP OF CHICHESTERsaid, he also had to appeal to the Government on behalf of a large proportion of the population of his diocese whose places of burial had been closed, and who really had no places of sepulture for their dead. He would instance the case of Brighton to show the condition to which large places

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were reduced in consequence of the shutting up of burial-grounds. Here was this large town, with 73,000 inhabitants, which at present, and for some time past, was in a state of the greatest distress for want of places for interment—no person dying within the limits of this vast parish having a right to burial there or elsewhere. The noble Earl had felt it a strong ground of complaint with respect to a limited number of persons in Huntingdon, but the ground was much stronger in respect to Brighton and its 70,000 inhabitants. He (the right rev. Prelate), in conjunction with the petitioners who addressed the House, asked their Lordships not only that there should be an alteration but an amendment of the law, and that the provisions to be framed for that purpose should be sufficient and effectual. Unless the law was made compulsory there would be found the same resistance to it as was found in Brighton and elsewhere.

THE CAVALRY IN THE CRIMEA.
LORD VIVIANmoved for a Return of the Number of Men and Horses sent or to be sent as Reliefs or Reinforcements to the Cavalry now in the Crimea; Regiments, or Squadrons from Regiments, now in this country, to be employed on this service; Date of Embarkation; Name of Transports in which these Reinforcements have been or are to be sent out, stating whether sailing or steam. The noble Lord said, he had, on a former occasion, moved for a similar return; but he had been induced to withdraw it on the assurance given by the Commander in Chief, that he would at once send a number of men from every regiment in this country, so as to form a strong squadron at the seat of war. Believing that to be the best course to be pursued, and believing that the Commander in Chief would act upon the assurance he had given, he did not press for any return. Finding, however, that up to this moment —certainly up to the last very few days— no single regiment of cavalry had been sent to the East, he felt it his duty again to introduce the subject to their Lordships. It appeared to him, if their army were to continue before Sebastopol, it was essential that that branch of it which was of the highest importance in the operations of the siege, and which at the present moment was the most weak, should be reinforced. He knew he should be told that reinforcements had been or were about to be sent to the Crimea. He was happy to know
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it; and all he now sought was, that they should be sent by the speediest conveyance. What he desired to know was, what were the means which the Government had of conveying these troops? He feared lest the Government should be once again "too late;" and he thought they would best show that there was no ground for apprehension by stating not only the force they were about to send out, but that they were prepared to send them out in steam-vessels.
VISCOUNT HARDINGEsaid, it was very true the noble Lord did, on a former occasion, request him to afford the House information as to the way in which he purposed to carry out the reinforcements of cavalry to the army in the East, and that at that time he (Viscount Hardinge) thought the best course would be to send out to each of the ten regiments that were at the Crimea one additional squadron from the nine regiments that were at home. Subsequently, he had seen reason to believe that the better plan would be to take two of the nine regiments and send them en masse, instead of a squadron from each of the nine regiments, as he had proposed in the first instance. Accordingly, two regiments—namely, the 1st Dragoon Guards and the 6th Dragoons—had been sent out. The force of the cavalry in the East at the present moment was 1,300 efficient men. These would be reinforced by about 700 troops, forming the two regiments which were to be sent out. In addition to those two regiments would be the troops that were coming from India. The first regiment had already arrived at the Crimea from India, and, when the whole reached that country, they would amount to rather more than 1,000 rank and file besides officers. There would then be in the Crimea rather more than 3,000 efficient cavalry. He should further add, that the number of recruits that were now ready was at least 1,000, together with 1,500 horses, all between five and six years old. The regiments at home had cheerfully consented to act as instructors to those recruits, by which essential service had been done. The Inspector General and the Duke of Cambridge had concurred in these arrangements. He had nothing to say as to the mode of embarkation, because that did not belong to his department, but more than half of the reinforcements had sailed, and the other half were ready. The noble Lord had asked whether the reinforce- were sent out in sailing or steam vessels?

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He was sorry to say there had been but one steamer available, and that the remainder were sailing vessels; but he was satisfied that whatever delay might take place through sending out the reinforcements in sailing vessels, there was at home a very efficient force to send out.
THE EARL OF DERBYhoped there was no indiscretion in giving the Emperor of Russia this information as to the amount of cavalry strength that the Government proposed to send out.
LORD PANMUREsaid, that when questions of this sort were put relative to the amount of force to be sent out, he always refused to give information; and although, according to the manner in which everything relating to the army was published nowadays, the enemy had every opportunity of knowing exactly the force of which our army consisted, yet it was not a good precedent for Parliament to grant returns which showed the strength of our national forces in time of war. Such returns were usually asked to elicit explanations, such as had been obtained from the Commander in Chief, for a particular and special purpose, and he therefore hoped the noble Lord would not press for the returns. With reference to sending out cavalry reinforcements, every means of despatch had been used to send these and all the other reinforcements at the disposal of the Government. At this moment we and our allies had, he believed, engaged every available steam transport that could be hired for the purpose. But there were not steamers available for the transport for 3,000 miles of so many men as the Government desired to send, and they had, therefore, been compelled to have recourse to sailing vessels, not only for the transport of cavalry and artillery, but also of infantry, to the seat of war.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHhoped that whenever the Government determined to send cavalry to the seat of war they would give the earliest possible information to the Commissary General, because, although it was very easy to find food for men there, it was very difficult to find food for horses. If they had not done so they ought to use the electric telegraph for this purpose, or else these fine horses would find nothing to eat when they arrived, and they would be destroyed before they met the enemy. Noble Lords must recollect that the cavalry and the rest of the army now in the Crimea were living in a desert producing nothing whatever. When ea-
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valry were in the field they could ordinarily obtain the means of subsistence for their horses, but our cavalry in the Crimea must depend for their support upon what was sent out in ships. That made another serious demand upon the tonnage available for transport, to which had been super-added the claims of the Land Transport Corps. He trusted that the instant the Government determined to send out cavalry they would give information to Mr. Commissary General Filder.
LORD PANMUREsaid, that Mr. Filder had received the information to which the noble Earl had referred; but he had also taken care to have a large quantity of hay sent out from this country and landed in the Crimea for the supply of the troops until the season came round. There could, therefore, be no possibility of a failure in the supply of food for the horses.
LORD VIVIANwould not press his Motion for the production of the returns.
LORD HARDINGEmight add, that he had communicated that day with General Scarlett, who had just returned from the Crimea, and that excellent officer had informed him that the force of cavalry in the Crimea when he left was 1,300 men and 400 horses.
Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
House adjourned to Thursday next.