Lords Sitting of 26 March 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Militia (Ireland); Intramural Burials (Ireland).

THE QUEEN'S MESSAGE—THE MILITARY CONVENTION WITH SARDINIA.
Order of the Day for considering Her Majesty's most gracious Message of Friday last, read.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, in moving your Lordships to take into consideration Her Majesty's gracious Message, I feel that it would be unbecoming in me to detain your Lordships for any lengthened time, as I think that your Lordships would consider that it would be superfluous for me to offer any argument in support of the Address in answer to the Message which I intend to propose; because, my Lords, although the treaty which, by Her Majesty's command, was proposed to the Sardinian Government has only recently been ratified, we must all agree that the treaty is one which has long since received the assent of Parliament and of the nation. My Lords, I well remember the cheers which from all parts of this House greeted the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough) when, with even more than his accustomed fervour and eloquence, he declared the gratification he had experienced upon learning that the treaty had been signed, which has since been laid upon your Lordships' table. The only drawback which there

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appeard to be to the satisfaction of the noble Earl was that diplomacy had had something to do with the matter. It will, therefore, be agreeable to your Lordships to learn that no solicitation was required to be made on our part to the Sardinian Government to bring about a result which, I must say, more than any other event of a similar kind within my recollection, has been received with satisfaction by all ranks and classes of the people of this country. The only merit which diplomacy or Her Majesty's Government can claim, is having thought that the time had arrived when an invitation to the Sardinian Government to adhere to the Anglo-French treaty of April 10 might be acceptable. We were not disappointed in our expectations; for within a very few hours after the proposal was made to the Sardinian Government by those of England and France, the Sardinian Government, acting with that vigour of purpose and perfect good faith which characterise all its proceedings, and which has secured for it success at home and respect abroad, agreed to those preliminaries which left us in no doubt about the ultimate arrangement of the treaty. I think it will not be unacceptable to your Lordships to learn the precise grounds on which the Sardinian Government adhered to the Anglo-French treaty, and I will, therefore, read to you a short extract from a despatch from the President of the Council and Minister for Foreign Affairs, M. Cavour, which has been officially communicated to Her Majesty by the Minister of Sardinia in this country. In that despatch he said—
"When the treaty of alliance of April 10, 1854, between France and England was officially communicated to Sardinia, the Government of the King, while it recognised both the right and the duty of the Great Powers to oppose the encroachments of Russia, and to defend the Ottoman Empire from an unjust aggression, while it proclaimed its sincerest sympathies in the cause which France and England were generously defending, nevertheless abstained for the time from availing itself of the stipulation in article 5 of the treaty. Now, however, the war has assumed great dimensions in the East and in the Baltic, and the whole world is convinced that the question which is agitated in the East is a European question, all are now agreed that if the Great Powers have in it an interest more direct, the States of second order are threatened in their commerce, and, what is of more importance, in their independence, by the ambitious progress of Russia. The moment is therefore arrived for opposing to the vast means of action that she possesses, and even the enormous advantages of her geographical position, the United efforts of the Powers, who, free from all
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ambitious projects, aspire only to guard against dangers which it might afterwards be too late to avert, and to secure the triumph of the eternal principles of justice and of right."
My Lords, to a Government animated by such sentiments no solicitation was necessary. Nor should I omit to remind your Lordships that, in adhering to the Anglo-French treaty, Sardinia had adhered to that article of the treaty which I will call the self-denying article—the article by which England and France bound themselves to derive no advantage from the war—a stipulation which is not, I believe, to be found in any other treaty, and which, therefore, reflects the more honour upon those who have set such an example. Sardinia adheres to that engagement, and thereby meets the accusations which might and would otherwise have been brought against her of wishing to engage in this contest in order hereafter to procure territorial aggrandisement, profiting by the troubles the war produces, or claiming such advantages on the proclamation of peace. Sardinia takes her full share in the war, and I think it is honourable in her not to demand any such advantages. She makes no such demand; but her finances not being equal to meet the expense of placing upon a war footing a large force whose numerical strength is always to be kept up to a certain amount, without undue taxation to the people, she applied to England for an advance of money, the interest of which she will pay and will provide a sinking fund for its ultimate redemption. Not having means of transport at her disposal, she also asked that these troops should be conveyed by us. Her Majesty's Government, waiting the approval of Parliament, have agreed to the advance of money, and at this moment a British fleet is on its way to Genoa, where it will embark for the theatre of war these men who, if reports be correct, are inferior to none in Europe in organisation, in discipline, in equipment, and in courage. This will be effected at no eventual cost to England, and at a much less present expense than that for which a similar number of British troops could be sent out. The extract which I have just had the pleasure of reading shows the complete identity of purpose which now unites Sardinia with England and France in this contest. Give me leave to say, also, that I think it manifests the spirit of independence and of justice which animates the Sardinian Government, by which they have been able to surmount many and

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peculiar difficulties at home, and by which, while scrupulously fulfilling their engagements with foreign Governments and maintaining good faith, they have secured for themselves rational liberty and constitutional freedom. With their struggles we in England have always sympathised; we have rejoiced at their success; but we have never directly or indirectly interfered in the matter. I believe that one great cause of the success of Sardinia is that it has been wholly free from the action of foreign Governments. The institutions which its people have given to themselves are of native growth and culture, and are on that account stronger and more deep-rooted, and better adapted to their purpose. Sardinia has been tree from the curse of foreign parties in her own territory, intriguing and competing for a nominal and worthless influence; and such complete confidence has been established among all classes, that the King, with the full approval of his Parliament and his people, is enabled to send forth the flower of his army to contend in a just cause, without a thought or a fear of revolution or disturbance. My Lords, Sardinia is a territory small in itself, but she will raise herself in the scale of nations by taking part in the settlement of one of the greatest questions that has agitated Europe in modern times, by placing her army side by side with those of France and England—destined to share the same toils, the same dangers, and, as I hope, the same triumphs. I think also we may anticipate, hereafter, a closer alliance between England and Sardinia, founded upon a more intimate knowledge of each other, and an increase of that kindly and cordial feeling by which the people of England are now animated towards her. The noble Earl concluded by moving that an humble address be presented to Her Majesty, thanking Her for Her most gracious Message, and promising Her the support of the House in carrying out the stipulations of the Treaty She has entered into with the King of Sardinia.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEwished to say, that he concurred most completely with the Address which the noble Earl proposed to lay at the foot of the Throne; and if he were to make any remark upon the subject, it would be, that he quite agreed with the noble Earl, not only as to the policy of supporting the treaty, but also in the high encomiums which the noble Earl had bestowed upon the Sardinian Government. He had himself had an op-
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portunity of knowing many persons who were connected with the army of that country; and amongst them he had always found a generosity and nobility of character, which he had not been prepared to meet with very frequently amongst the Italian people. The Sardinian people, whatever unfavourable circumstances they might have had to contend with, possessed a very high sense of the value of liberty, and a genuine love of liberal institutions, which they had cherished in the face of the greatest difficulties, and without the assistance of any foreign Power. There was no nation, he believed, to the south of France, which had evinced so great a capacity of self-development, not only in the improvement of her agriculture and commerce, but in the growth of her liberal institutions, as the Sardinians had. There were no people animated with a higher sentiment of national honour. He (the Earl of Hardwicke) had had an opportunity, too, of seeing what the Sardinian soldier was. A better disciplined force, he believed, existed not upon the face of the earth. At the time he saw them they were a defeated army; they had just suffered a severe defeat at the battle of Novara; but he found them, even in that condition, an organised body of men, and commanded by most able officers, and at their head was General de La Marmora who was about to proceed to the Crimea at this time. He could state, for the satisfaction of the English army, that the General was a man of high ability, whose soldier like qualities would merit their esteem, and that he possessed, moreover, so much openness, frankness, and nobility of character, that he would be always accessible to their communications, and receive them in a congenial manner; the General was a good soldier, and a perfect gentleman.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that much as the present unhappy war was to be deplored, it would not be unattended with some compensatory circumstances, one of which Was the intimate relations about to be established between this country and Sardinia, and the position which that country was about to take among the nations of Europe, a position due, not to her geographical extent or the number of her people, but to the vigour of her principles, the nobility of her efforts, and the wise and righteous administration of such men as were now at the head of her affairs. The people of this country are regarding

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with the most intense interest and anxiety the struggles of that noble country for civil and religious liberty—for independence without and independence within; and if—which God forbid—the Government should be called upon to appeal to the people of England to defend Sardinia against external aggression—come from whatever quarter it might—rely upon it they would meet with such a response from the most northern to the most southern point of England, from John o'Groat's House to the Land's End, as had never before been made.
Address agreed to, Nemine Dissentiente; and Ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

POSTAL COMMUNICATION WITH AUSTRALIA.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he was charged with a petition from the Australian Postal Association, praying for the re-establishment of the Postal Steam Service between Australia and England, in explanation of which he would describe the strange position, at present, of the postal service between this country and Australia. The question of postal steam communication with Australia had been agitated since 1846. In 1851 the attention of Parliament was particularly called to the subject, and a Committee was appointed, on the Motion of a noble Lord in the other House, to make inquiry into the postal service of Australia. The result of that inquiry was that two special contracts had been entered into to carry on that service. One contract was made with the Oriental Steam Navigation Company to carry the mails to the Mediterranean, whence they were taken to Singapore, to be from thence conveyed to Australia; the other arrangement was for their conveyance by way of the Cape of Good Hope, and the contract was given to the General Screw Steam Navigation Company. These arrangements were for alternate months, the mails of one month being conveyed by one route, and of the next month by the other way; and the time occupied in so carrying the mails to Australia was, by one route, from sixty to sixty-five days, and by the other route, from sixty-four to seventy days. Such were the arrangements up to the commencement of the war. Whether they were perfectly satisfactory or not he would not say, but they gave a constant and tolerably rapid communication between Australia and the
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mother country. Now, the great importance of that communication was evident from the fact that the mails carried viâ Singapore generally amounted to thirty or forty tons in weight, contained in 300 or 400 boxes; and the amount of postal revenue received on them was now 90,000 l. a year. The value of our exports to Australia in 1853 was no less than 14,506,532 l.—an unheard-of amount, exceeding our average exports to America by a million and a half, and being double our exports to India or to Germany, and six times greater than our exports to France; seven times greater than our exports to China. That our Australian colonies should have risen so rapidly to such great commercial importance, was a strong argument for a speedy and sure postal intercourse with them. The grievances, however, they complained of now were, that at this moment, when such large quantities of English goods were lying there, and when it was particularly important that their owners should be able to send out instructions how to dispose of them, postal communication was stopped. He meant, that as sailing vessels had been substituted for steam vessels, the people must now wait three, four, or five months for the return of their correspondence, whereas formerly the time a letter took to reach them was six weeks. The noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey), in receiving a deputation from Australia on this subject, said "he viewed the establishment of steam postal communication as a matter of the utmost importance, and that he should be happy to do what he could to remove the obstacles in the way of its establishment," and he therefore hoped he should have his assistance on the present occasion. The petitioners, while they admitted that the war must have diverted a portion of the steam marine, said that by proper arrangements the steam postal communication with Australia need not have been interrupted. The petition having given information as to the subject of which it complained, went on to propose the remedy. Their Lordships would remember that in other colonies, such as the Canadas, they were allowed to arrange their own postal service; and the petitioners asked on the part of Australia that she should be allowed to do the same thing. They stated that there existed in Australia wealthy steam companies, possessed of steamships well adapted for the conveyance of mails, and willing to establish a branch line between Sydney

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and Singapore, and they prayed the House to take into its earliest consideration the injury sustained by the commerce of the colony in consequence of the suspension of all steam intercourse with this country, and to vote an address, praying Her Majesty to be graciously pleased to direct that arrangements might be made for the re-establishment of postal communications between the two countries. Whatever difficulties there might be in the way of carrying on the postal service as it had been carried on before the commencement of the war, he could see no objection to allowing the colony to do that which had been done by other colonies—namely, establish a postal service of its own.
VISCOUNT CANNINGsaid, that the question which the noble Earl had brought under the consideration of their Lordships was undoubtedly one of considerable importance to the mercantile community in this country, and of vital interest, to that body in Australia. But he thought that the noble Earl had been misled with respect to some of the details he had laid before their Lordships. He was surprised to hear the noble Earl state that the revenue derived by this country from the conveyance of the mails to and from Australia amounted to 90,000 l. a year.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEexplained: What he meant to say was that that was the gross revenue derived from that service.
VISCOUNT CANNING: He could assure the noble Earl that even that statement was a very exaggerated one. It appeared from the Report of a Commission which had last year been laid before their Lordships, that two years ago the gross revenue derived from that service had not quite amounted to one-half of the alleged sum of 90,000 l. a year; and since that time the revenue from that source had been diminished by the reduction effected in the rate of postage, so that, according to the nearest estimates he could obtain, it did not at present amount to more than about 36,000 l. a year. The noble Earl had stated that there were in Australia shipowners who would be willing to undertake the carriage of mails between this country and Australia. An application had been addressed to him by an Australian company that he should enter into engagements with them to the effect that, if they were to construct certain vessels which they did not at present possess, they should receive a contract from the Government.
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But he had declined to accede to that application, because he considered that it would be rash and very unadvisable to entertain the proposals of a company which had not already the means of carrying out their undertaking, and which could not give some substantial proof that they could fulfil their contract. With regard to what was called the suspension of the postal service with Australia, he must remind the noble Earl that the war in which we were engaged not only called for every resource which the country could command, but paralysed the means by which those resources were maintained. Two companies had not long ago been engaged in carrying on that postal communication; but last year, at the outbreak of the war, a number of large ocean steamers had been hired by the Government for the purpose of military transport from several companies, and from those two companies in particular. It so happened that he was at that very time in communication with one of those companies—namely, the Peninsular and Oriental—for the purpose of obtaining from them the conveyance of a monthly instead of a bi-monthly mail; so that while the contract with the General Screw Steam Shipping Company would also have continued in force there would have been eighteen instead of twelve mails each year between this country and Australia. The exigencies of the war, however, had not only prevented such an arrangement, but had even led to a reduction of the postal communication previously established. Australia was not the only sufferer. The lines to all the other colonies and to foreign countries had been interfered with. The Peninsular and Oriental Company had, a short time ago, eight of their vessels employed in the conveyance of troops; the General Screw Steam Shipping Company had seven vessels engaged in the same service; eight of Cunard's vessels had been similarly employed; and altogether there had been not less than from twenty-seven to thirty large postal steamers in the service of the Government for the purposes of the war. Australia had certainly suffered more than our other colonies from that interruption of its ordinary postal communication, because, from its greater distance, it had become impossible to find any substitutes for the steamers which had been so withdrawn, and the Government had necessarily been compelled to fall back on sailing vessels for the convey-

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ance of the Australian mails. But they were so convinced of the inconvenience which had been produced by that change, that, notwithstanding the exigencies of the war, they were at present in communication with the parties who were most likely to be able to supply the existing deficiency—the Peninsular and Oriental Company—as to the terms on which that Company would be able to establish a postal service with Australia by way of Singapore and Point de Galle. He did not look forward to this as a permanent arrangement, as he thought that hereafter a much better one might be made, both as regarded the public here and the colony. He repeated that he thought there were some errors of the statement in the petition which the noble Earl had just laid before the House. In opposition to the allegation of the noble Earl with respect to the capabilities of companies in the colony for carrying out that communication, he should observe that he had reason to believe that there were not more than one or two steamers in Australia that could undertake the long ocean voyage. Again, the noble Earl had fallen into a serious error in speaking of the difference of time in which the voyage was made by the steamers and by sailing vessels. The noble Earl had stated that in consequence of the employment of sailing vessels instead of steamers it took four or five months at present to send a letter to Australia and to receive an answer to it, although the same service had formerly been performed in five or six weeks.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, that what he had intended to state was, that whereas the passage between this country and Australia had formerly occupied only about six weeks, it occupied at present three or four months.
VISCOUNT CANNING: That, too, was a mistake. The passage between this country and Australia had never been performed in so short a time as six weeks: the average time consumed in the passage by the vessels of the General Screw Steam Shipping Company had been from eighty-five to ninety days. It was the intention of the Government to establish again, as soon as possible, an efficient steam communication between this country and the Australian colonies; and he would take the liberty to add, that he hoped the colonists and those who influenced their councils would be patient with the Government in this matter. He thought it was not unfair to remind them that we were
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engaged in a very serious contest, and that whatever might be thought of the manner in which that contest had hitherto been conducted, one thing was certain, that the evils of war had not affected the distant and peaceful shores of our Australian colonies, and that neither their enterprise nor their tranquillity had in any way suffered, or even been threatened. That being so, he thought he might fairly ask that they should display a little indulgence, and that they should evince their readiness to forego for a time the convenience they had hitherto derived from the employment in their postal service of vessels which were at present found essentially necessary for the vigorous prosecution of the war.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he was informed that the Australasian Steam Packet Company possessed twenty vessels, many of which were of 700 or 800 tons burden.

DESPATCH OF BUSINESS—COURT OF CHANCERY BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee on the Bill read.
Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into a Committee upon the said Bill.
LORD LYNDHURSTsaid, that the Bill referred to very important matters, which he thought it most desirable that it should be referred to a Select Committee. He had to present petitions in favour of such a course of proceeding from the Incorporated Law Society, and from the clerks referred to in one of the clauses of the Bill. The noble and learned Lord, who was very indistinctly heard, proceeded to condemn the existing mode of remunerating solicitors, which, he contended, required a thorough revision. Until such a step were taken, most of our other reforms in the judicial system of the country, whether relating to equity or to the common law, would be in a great measure nugatory and abortive. In adducing authorities in support of this view, the noble and learned Lord quoted an opinion expressed before the Incorporated Law Society by the late Lord Langdale, then Master of the Rolls, which was to the effect that the present system gave to solicitors and all other legal practitioners a direct interest in increasing the length of documents and in protracting the duration of proceedings; and that in many cases a solicitor was compelled, in his own defence, to put his client to very heavy and unnecessary expense, in order

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to obtain some remuneration for services in respect of which he could not otherwise make a legal demand. The noble and learned Lord then illustrated the practical working of the system by reference to particular instances, characterising it as absurd, unequal, unjust, and impolitic, and arguing that under its operation the solicitor had an interest directly adverse to that of his client, and antagonistic to that speedy and efficient administration of justice the promotion of which had been the object of so much of our recent legislation. The system was closely connected with the speedy and efficient administration of justice in the Court of Chancery; it called for investigation, and he believed it could not be investigated better than by referring this Bill to a Select Committee.
THE LORD CHANCELLORagreed that the question of the remuneration of solicitors in the Court of Chancery was of the greatest importance; at the same time it was one of very considerable difficulty, and he thought he had some right to complain that his noble and learned Friend had not communicated with him previous to bringing it under the notice of the House, as he then should have been able to enter into the subject more fully. Shortly after his acceptance of the Great Seal he had been waited upon by a deputation frrm the society referred to; and, in consequence of the representations then made to him, he had thought it his duty to look into the subject to see if he could devise any more satisfactory plan by which the remuneration of solicitors should be calculated upon the principle of the quantum meruit, which ought, in truth, to be the object of all systems. The noble and learned Lord said that the remuneration ought to be calculated on the scale of quantum meruit, but the difficulty was how to ascertain the quantum meruit. The scale of fees at present in force had been fixed by his predecessor in office after great consideration; and, no doubt, it would be extremely inconvenient to be changing the fees every year, so that persons would never know what it was that they were to receive. It very often happened that the interest of the client conflicted with that of the solicitor, and, if proceedings were to be paid for by their length, not very honourable practitioners would be occasionally tempted to lengthen the proceedings, in order to increase their remuneration. The proposal to pay them according to a per centage of the value of
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the property involved appeared to him perfectly preposterous, for sometimes a question involving 100,000 l. might occupy a very short space of time. In like manner, it would be impossible to look into each separate case to see what remuneration should be given for the particular service performed. He had, however, consulted the three Judges and the taxing master upon the subject, beside several eminent practitioners in the Court, with a view of devising some more satisfactory scale; he found, however, that he was fully justified in saying that the matter was full of insuperable difficulties, and he had been obliged to leave it as he found it, with the exception of making some slight alterations in the fees adopted in 1842. This was in the spring of 1853. Since then the Master of the Rolls had informed him that he had gone into the subject, but had not succeeded in framing any plan which would exactly meet the views of all parties, and he had abandoned the task. It was customary for the Judges of the Court of Chancery to meet together, in the evening of the first or second day of each term, to consult as to any alterations of practice which might have been suggested by the proceedings of the previous three months; and at one of these meetings, at the beginning of Michaelmas or Trinity term last, it was represented to him by all the Judges of the Court of Chancery that it would be of great advantage if largely increased remuneration were given to solicitors in cases where, by their having got the facts into a neat and intelligible form a long inquiry was superseded, and the hearing compressed into an hour or two, instead of being spread over two or three days. This was an alteration which he had been of opinion could safely be made; but he owned he entirely despaired of ever arriving at any general system of remuneration which should exactly satisfy the wishes of all parties. If his noble and learned Friend would move for a Committee to inquire into that subject, he should be the last man to oppose it, provided it was to be effected in a legitimate manner; but he certainly could not consent to such an inquiry being tacked on to this Bill, with which it had nothing whatever to do. With respect to the present Bill, the original object in introducing it was to obtain power to appoint additional junior clerks to assist the senior clerks in the Judges' chambers, it having been represented to him by the Judges that the business in

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their offices was greatly impeded by the want of such clerks. The senior clerks, it appeared, having each only one junior clerk under them, were often obliged to do work which would properly fall to the lot of a junior clerk to attend to, and it was thought advisable that extra assistance should be afforded them by the appointment of a second junior clerk in each office. He originally introduced the Bill with that sole object; but his attention was then called by persons connected with the Court of Chancery to the fact, that there was one office, that of Master of Reports and Entries, the abolition of which had been recommended by a Committee of the House of Commons, but that was not adopted by the Act passed three years ago, although other recommendations of that Committee were adopted; and the second object of this Bill was virtually the abolition of that office. The reason why the recommendation he had mentioned was not adopted was, that his noble Friend, Lord Truro, thought that that was a hasty recommendation—that the office was useful—that, if necessary, its duties might be increased; he therefore thought it was better it should remain. But it had since been found that the office did not work well. The office of Clerks of Records and Writs, in which most of the business of the Court of Chancery was carried on, could transact more business, and more effectually, if it were separated from the Office of Reports and Entries in the way in which it now existed. It was therefore suggested as desirable, practically to abolish the Office of Reports and Entries, the present holder of that office to be called upon to perform other duties, with the same salary, during his life, and that the duties he had hitherto discharged should be transferred to the Clerks of Records and Writs. He had made it his duty to go and inspect the Office of the Master of Reports and Entries, and he must say that it was in a most discreditable state. The place was crowded with documents so as to defy all attempt at arrangement, and the whole floor was covered with papers that were of the greatest importance. By the Act of the 15 and 16 of Vict., four clerks were appointed to perform the duties of Clerk of Reports. One of those appointments fell vacant the other day. The Master of the Rolls had not felt it to accord with his views to fill up that vacancy, so that three clerks were now discharging the whole of the duties of that office. It was proposed that
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they should continue to do so, and that if it should appear to the Lord Chancellor that the additional duty cast upon them deserved additional salary, he—with the advice and assistance of the Master of the Rolls—was empowered to give it, so that the whole amount paid for such salaries in any one year should not exceed, if divided equally, 250 l. for each clerk. Under the Act which abolished the Masters' Offices, power was given to the Lord Chancellor to let or sell the Masters' Offices; now by a former Act, the fee of these offices was vested in the Crown; and the third object of this Bill was, that the piece of ground in Southampton Buildings and the buildings thereon should be vested in the Lord Chancellor for the time being for the purposes of the said Act. With regard to the proposal of his noble and learned Friend to refer the question of solicitors' fees to a Select Committee, he thought it was going out of their Lordships' way, and would be doing an act which was not at all necessary.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, that one thing was most obvious, that nothing would be more unwise than to disturb the late settlemennt on this question without grave consideration. What he called the late settlement was the Act passed in 1852, when the new arrangements were made with regard to the Court of Chancery, affecting not only the matters referred to in the Bill now before their Lordships, but the whole business of the highest court of judicature in the kingdom. He was not disposed to offer any opposition to the present measure; but there ought to be great forbearance exercised in coining to a decision upon any particular branch of the system until they saw how all its parts worked together. If their Lordships allowed a pressure from without to have too much influence, they might by and by find it exceedingly inconvenient. Give the system a little time to work, and whatever evils might be found in it, set about and correct them. As regarded the appointment of an additional junior clerk to each chief clerk, it was impossible to resist that demand. He agreed with his noble and learned Friend, as to the appointment of an additional chief clerk, that if not absolutely necessary he should regret its being done. If the Judges did not require it, he was sure the chief clerks did not require it. If there were more chief clerks, it appeared to him that the great security of the whole plan of 1852 would be violated. That plan was based upon this:—that the clerks

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should be kept in their proper position; that they should be men of ability and of judicial power, but that they should not be viewed in the same light as the masters were, but should depend upon and be under the sole direction of the Judge. The duties of the chief clerks, from what he had himself seen, had been well discharged, and he believed the offices were filled by men who had proved themselves competent for the duties intrusted to them. With regard to the building of new courts, he certainly would press upon his noble and learned Friend the necessity of taking the subject into consideration without loss of time. He rejoiced that he had successfully resisted the transferring of the Judges chambers to the masters' offices. He felt that the locality was extremely prejudicial for carrying on the business of the Court of Chancery; but, although he did so, never thought of hiring chambers except as a temporary arrangement. There was a spot in Lincoln's Inn on which two new courts could be built, with convenient chambers for the Judges' clerks, and if the Masters' offices in Southampton buildings were sold and the money applied to the new building, the expense would be very small indeed. He thought the Government ought to erect the building suggested, as it was almost essential to the working of the legislation of 1852. As his noble and learned Friend retained the Master of the Records and his salary, he did not object to that part of the Bill. He considered the clerks had mistaken the course which they ought to have taken, and that, instead of petitioning against the Bill, they should have gone to his noble and learned Friend and respectfully submitted to him any complaint on the subject of remuneration. Unless the new system were watched they would have abuses springing up. It was not sufficient to carry measures of reform. It was the duty of his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack, of his noble and learned Friend near him (Lord Lyndhurst), and of himself—who understood the subject—to give their anxious attention, for the benefit of the suitor, to see that the system worked as was intended. It was said that the attorneys did a great deal of work and had very little to show for it; but they must take the business altogether, and consider whether the whole did not produce sufficient remuneration. His noble and learned Friend said the attorneys had the temptation to make conveyances of unne-
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cessary length for the sake of costs; but he did not believe—though in every profession there would be some persons who would act dishonourably and discreditably—that any respectable professional man would indulge in great length for the mere purpose of making charges. If they altered the fees, that would give an additional motive for delay. They could not prevent delay except by such arrangements as those of 1852. His argument with the attorneys was that, although the scale of fees was not so large, the facility with which cases would be decided and these bills paid would be more advantageous than those longwinded suits in which the interest of their money absorbed a great proportion of their profits. He could have no other motive in settling the fees of 1852 than that of giving fair remuneration to the attorneys, standing as he did between them and the suitors. If it could be shown that they were entitled to higher remuneration he was perfectly ready to join with his noble and learned Friend in giving it; but still he must say they ought to take the rough with the smooth—it would not do to take all the plums and leave the rest of the pudding. The attorneys desired to have any expense saved by their exertions considered in the amount of remuneration. If that could be done he should not object, but there must be something by which to measure the value of services, and, therefore, the proposition on the part of the solicitors did not seem to him to be practicable. He would not oppose the Committee, but he was bound to declare that he should not got go to that Committee with any hope of ever coming at a satisfactory conclusion. There were in the scheme of 1852 several things requiring attention, and one was the operation of the regulation relative to the examination of witnesses. Care should be taken to see that the expenses were kept within narrow bounds, and that no special examination was taken without very sufficient grounds. There ought also to be some cheek upon the number of counsel who attended before the examiner.
LORD LYNDHURSTsaid, it was now nine or ten years since he had washed his hands of the Court of Chancery, and he had never wished to entangle himself again in its folds. He had to-night presented a petition from the Incorporated Law Society, who were more minutely acquainted than any other body of men with the proceedings of the Court of Chancery. He had no

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doubt their statements were correct, and he had founded his observations upon the statements of that petition.
THE LORD CHANCELLORhad referred to the petition of the clerks in the Record office, who had not adopted a perfectly correct course in presenting a petition to their Lorships' House without previously communicating with the head of that Court. The circumstance should never be an obstacle in their way as far as he was concerned, but he must protest against such a course as irregular. He thought it right to add that he had received a letter from seven other clerks in that office, who stated that they entirely dissented from the petition.
LORD LYNDHURSTsaid, that the Bill did not put the clerks of the Record office on the same footing as the other offices, as was recommended by the Select Committee of the House of Commons of 1848.
Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly; Amendments made; The Report thereof to be received To-morrow.
House adjourned till To-morrow.