Lords Sitting of 5 March 1855

MINUTES.
ROYAL ASSENT.—Consolidated Fund (£3,300,000); Consolidated Fund( 20,000,000).

EDUCATION IN INDIA.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that in rising to move for the papers of which he had given notice, he was anxious to state the grounds which led him to bring these papers under the notice of the House. In all cases in which important changes had been effected in our laws or system of government, it behoved us to pause and to review carefully the working of our new measures in order to form a judgment of their success. This, though very generally true, is peculiarly so in a case like the present. He would remind their Lordships that Parliament had recently passed an Act which entirely remodelled the Government of India. It was into the operation of that Act in one of its most important parts, that he proposed to inquire; for the consequences of British legislation on Indian interests demanded the especial and constant care and superintendence of Parliament; for their Lordships would find, on looking back to the way in which former Acts of Parliament relating to India had been carried into effect, that many enactments, on which great reliance had been placed, and from which re-
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forms of the most important character had been expected, in practice had been totally set aside by those who were charged with their administration; and this we have seen done almost as soon as these laws were passed. At other times we have seen them carried out in a manner which defeated the intentions of those who had framed them. He could cite many instances in illustration of this proposition. For instance, the Act of 1813, renewing the Charter of the East India Company, contained many enactments of great importance, some of which were practically set aside as soon as passed. The provision contained in that Act, which directed that an annual sum should be set aside and applied for the purpose of education in India, had been either forgotten or neglected by the East India Company, until, after many years, the fact transpired during the proceedings of a Commission appointed to consider the question of education; and it was not till then that the default on the part of the East India Company was even attempted to be corrected. Even then, it was done most reluctantly, and inadequately corrected. In the same way, under the Charter Act of 1833, that important clause, the 87th, passed distinctly with the view of opening the appointment to offices in India, without distinction of caste, colour, or birth, to all subjects of the Crown, had been repealed in practice. Another most important clause of the same Charter Act had also been set aside in like manner. An especial mode was prescribed for admitting persons into the civil service of the Company, and providing for their education at Haileybury. The candidates, it was true, were to be appointed by the nomination of the East India Directors, with the proviso, however, that three or four candidates were to be named for every vacancy, and the appointment should only be conferred on him who proved his competency after a fair struggle with his rivals, similarly recommended. This clause, also, had been totally set aside by the East India Company. Instances like these, he thought, established the importance that Parliament should inquire from time to time, and closely watch whether the laws which it passed were properly obeyed by public servants charged with their administration in a distant country, and who were neither under the eye nor subject to the control of the Home Government. He would now proceed to describe the papers

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for which he intended to move. The first was a letter written to the Government of India on the 15th of July, 1854, for the purpose of providing a general system of education for the people of India. The Act under which that letter was written had received the Royal Assent in August, 1853, nearly one year before. But he did not complain of the time which had elapsed between the date of the letter and the passing of the Act; on the contrary, he thought the late President of the Board of Control had acted most prudently in taking time for consideration. This was required both for communicating with the Court of Directors and with the authorities in India, whose concurrence no doubt had been obtained, before he drew up the Minute. Parliament was not informed officially to whom the great merit of this measure was due. The divided system left it in doubt whether it was attributable to the Company or to the Board of Control. He felt himself therefore free to choose, and therefore preferred to trace it to the hand of an old colleague and valued Friend (Sir C. Wood), late President of the Board. With respect to the document itself, he could not find words to express his sense of its importance, or his admiration for the able and statesmanlike manner in which it had been drawn up. A more interesting document, or one more honourable to the statesman who framed it, had never in his judgment been brought under the notice of Parliament. It left no part of the question of education in India untouched, and it dealt with every blanch of the subject judiciously and effectually. He thought, moreover, that this document was of the utmost importance, as finally and absolutely disposing of a question which even in our own times had been in some quarters treated as a matter of considerable doubt—whether the education of the people of India was a task which England ought to charge herself with, or whether, on the contrary, it was to be viewed as an undertaking full of danger and peril to British supremacy. His opinion, he need hardly say, on the point entirely coincided with that of his noble Friend (Lord Glenelg), who, on one occasion, when the subject was brought under discussion, declared with generous indignation that if the dominion of England was to be maintained only by keeping the people of India in a state of ignorance and debasement, the sooner it was abandoned the better for all parties.
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The letter he now moved for, and the evidence on which it was founded, settled the question authoritatively and for ever. Besides, it is made clear that it was now beyond the power of those who opposed education in India to arrest it. The progress of education is now irresistible, and it is advancing and extending with great rapidity among the people of India. Sir Charles Wood, therefore, deserved the national gratitude equally of England and India, for having interposed at the time and to the extent he has done; realising as he has by this document a general system of education for the people of India. His plan is complete in all its parts, the highest as well as the lowest, from his scheme of rural or village schools, to collegiate establishments, and completed by an enlarged system of university education. With respect to the combined relation of religion and education, many persons who entered upon the last Indian Committee, did so with an impression that the Government of India and the educational authorities might be made instrumental in spreading the Christian religion among the Natives. He believed he might add, that all had left the Committee with the conviction that such connection would be detrimental to the interests of religion itself, would impede the progress of knowledge, and endanger the tranquillity of the British Empire in India. All who had considered the question were of opinion that it would be better both for the interests of education and the interests of religion, that Government should not be connected with the active propagation of any religion, which was to be left in much better hands—namely, in the assiduous and disinterested efforts of the missionaries. The Government was too powerful to undertake these duties without raising jealousy and suspicion. The masters of ten legions could never safely undertake the duties of Christian Apostles. He wished, on this subject, to obtain the opinion of the eminent man now Governor-General. It was probable that some correspondence had taken place, both previous and subsequently to the date of this Minute, and he trusted that, if such was the case, that portion of the correspondence to which there was no objection would be also laid upon the table. He moved for these papers in no spirit of hostile feeling—quite the contrary; but he was anxious to see how the suggestions of the President of the Board of Control had

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been received in India, and how far the Government of India was disposed to carry them out.
The next paper for which he was about to move was of a different description; and although there was much in it to admire, he regretted to say that he also found much from which he must withhold his consent. Their Lordships would remember that by the late Act the exclusive nomination by the Directors of the East India Company to the civil service was abolished, and a system of free competition and open examination established in its stead. At present this examination was for admission into the College at Haileybury, where a special education was provided and carefully administered for the civil service:—but it now appeared, by this paper, that it was proposed hereafter to put an end to the College at Haileybury, and to admit into the civil service candidates who passed a successful competing examination, substituting such examination for an established course of education and discipline. This, he thought, was a doubtful matter. By the Act of last Session the Board of Control was called on to frame rules under which these candidates were to be hereafter admitted to the civil service; and the Board had in consequence appointed a Commission on which were names of men entitled to the greatest deference and calculated to carry with them the strongest weight. These Commissions, of whom it was only necessary to name Mr. Macaulay and his hon. Friend now at the table of their Lordships' House, Mr. J. Lefevre, were called on to collect information and to advise the Government on this point. He confessed that he expressed any difference of opinion from such high authorities with great distrust; but he considered this paper, with respect to the open competition for the Indian civil service, to be liable to considerable objections, and as likely to act injuriously to the Natives of India, contrary, he trusted, to the intentions of the Commissioners. This was the more objectionable, inasmuch as he knew not in what spirit these rules might be carried out. If the intentions of the Commissioners were such as might be collected, not from their high character, but from the words of the paper for which he moved, they would go far to defeat the entire policy of last year. The point to which he referred was no less than the free eligibility of the
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Natives of India to political offices in the civil service. The words contained in the original Act of Parliament were clear enough—
"that no Native of the said territories, nor any natural-born subject of Her Majesty born therein, shall by reason of his birth be disabled from holding any place, office, or employment under the said Company."
But we had witnessed an attempt made with but too much success to exclude Natives from the most valuable offices, by drawing a distinction between covenanted and uncovenanted servants of the Company; but no such distinction really existed in the Act, and no one had any right to create such a distinction. This violation of the spirit and the letter of the 87th section had been persevered in for twenty long years. The principle was now disclaimed, it is true, and abandoned. The noble Earl (Earl Granville) who had charge of the Bill repudiated it boldly and unreservedly. The declaratory clause which he (Lord Monteagle) had moved, setting the question at rest, was objected to, and withdrawn only as being unnecessary. But let Parliament beware lest one system of exclusion should be substituted for another equally fatal and equally hostile to Native interests. There were also other means of exclusion, which might be adopted under these regulations for the examination of candidates for the civil service; and he thought he should be able to show their Lordships that the course of examination was so framed—he would not say so intended—as to exclude the Native of India whilst admitting the European. There were two examinations of candidates; one for admission, and the other after a certain period of time had been passed in study, in order that the progress made by the students and their relative proficiency might be judged of. He very much feared that the effect of those examinations would be, that while the statute enacted that no man should be excluded by reason of caste, colour, birth, or parentage, that exclusion might be equally well effected by their course of examination. The proficiency of the candidate under examination was to be designated by marks of honour, of which the total number was 6,875. Of this number, however, 2,625 were given for the Latin, Greek, French, German, and Italian languages. He certainly did not think that the natives of England and the natives of India would stand upon

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an equal footing in this branch of examination; to call upon the latter to enter into competition with the former in respect to the dead and modern languages of Europe, was absurd, and not consistent with fair play. He had no doubt that under this course of examination the natives of India would be unfairly dealt with, if not excluded. It might, perhaps, be said that the natives of India enjoyed correlative advantages over Englishmen, inasmuch as they would have a superiority in the examinations in Oriental knowledge and languages. But this was very far from being the case. The vernacular languages of the East were omitted altogether, while Sanscrit and Arabic only were included. More than doubts, however, had been expressed by some of the most experienced men, whether any great advantage was to be derived from the study of those, the learned languages of India. The knowledge of the vernacular languages was of importance, but the other two languages, though useful to scholars in the same way that the Anglo-Saxon dialects were useful to scholars in England, were comparatively unimportant in the political administration of the Indian Empire. But, waiving this argument, presuming them to be important, there was an unfairness in the plan laid down, inasmuch as that, while in the course of examination 2,625 marks of honour were given to Englishmen for proficiency in the Greek, Latin, French, German, and Italian languages, only 750 marks, being less than one-third of the numbers, were to be given to the natives of India in respect to the Sanscrit and Arabic languages. That could not fail to operate in some cases as a most unjust exclusion of the natives of India from the civil service of the Company. Then there were to be 1,500 marks assigned to success in the examination in English. To this he did not object, considering it quite right that the Indian candidates should be exposed to the freest competition in our literature. But it was somewhat curious that the whole of the examinations in history were to be in English history, and that there was to be no examination in the history of India till the period of the second examination was reached, from which Indians might be excluded by the European characteristics of the first examination. He had already shown that, with reference to modern and ancient literature, the Hindoo and Parsee would not be admitted, unless honours
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were obtained to the extent of 2,625 marks in studies exclusively European, thus forming, as he believed, a practical exclusion. For mathematics, pure and mixed, and for natural and moral sciences, there were 2,000 marks, and to that there could be no objection—in these branches the European and Native might justly be placed on terms of perfect equality; but a general view of the case induced him to believe that, though the paper in which this scheme was laid down was prepared with consummate ability, the scheme for the examination paper was framed without the slightest possible reference to any one Native establishment, or the interests of any native of India. It is stated that the interests and the course of study at Oxford and Cambridge had been considered. What he complained of was, that the interests of the Hindoos and Mahomedan colleges had been forgotten or neglected. He might, however, be mistaken, and he could assure their Lordships that nothing would give him greater pleasure than to get an assurance from Her Majesty's Government that in the framing of those papers there had been no intention unfairly to exclude from the benefits intended for them by Parliament, any one of the Indian subjects of Her Majesty who should prove himself to be deserving.
There only remained one other subject to which he would refer. He had said that the noble Earl (Earl Granville) had been quite frank and unreserved in admitting that Lord William Bentinck's 87th clause did admit and was intended to admit Natives to the civil service, and that it was only a forced construction that would exclude them under the terms of that Act. He admitted, in a manner equally distinct and unqualified, that the same was the intention and import of the present Charter Act. This is now beyond all doubt and cavil by what has since occurred, and which has broken down once and for ever the distinction between the covenanted and uncovenanted service, and the consequent and unjust, if not illegal, exclusion of the natives of India. A very extraordinary illustrative case had since occurred which did great honour and credit to a native of India. It was the case of a young Indian of high caste, a Brahmin, who, having gone through a most successful course of instruction for the medical profession, both in India and in Europe, had, notwithstanding his high proficiency, been refused by the East India Company to be admitted

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as one of their civil servants. The East India Directors had been parties to Lord W. Bentinck's clause admitting Hindoos to all offices whatever, without reference to birth, religion, or caste; and yet they refused to confer an appointment on this gentleman, on the ground that the applicant for it was a native of India, and that the office which he sought, and for which he was pre-eminently qualified, was a covenanted office. This gentleman, however, whose perseverance and nobleness of heart in contending against the cruel opposition to which he was exposed, did him the highest honour, though compelled to return to India rejected and disappointed, was nothing daunted, and had, at last, succeeded in his object, and had been admitted under the new Act as a civil covenanted servant of the Company. This gentleman was Dr. Chuckerbutty. His history is most curious and instructive, and will, it may be hoped, serve as an encouragement to his fellow countrymen. At the early age of six or seven he had made great progress at a Native school in the Native languages. Struck with the appearance and evident superiority of a European who accidentally visited the village, the Hindoo child determined to learn English; and, accordingly, packing up his few articles of clothing in a handkerchief, with a small quantity of parched rice, he left his home and travelled on foot to a school at a considerable distance, where English was taught, and where, in consideration of his acting as cook, he received English lessons. He passed from school to school, and from progress to progress, till, at last, his talents having excited attention, an offer was made to him that he should go to England to complete the study of medicine. He accordingly went to England, at the hazard of losing his caste, of losing the favour of friends in India, and the future chances of promotion there. He entered upon a course of instruction at University College, London, and carried off gold medals and certificates of honour; and then applied for the appointment to which he was entitled, if the East India Directors had acted as they ought. He met with the generous and persevering support of Sir Edward Ryan and Mr. Cameron, who have now the consolation of being rewarded for the protection they gave to this noble-hearted Native. They sought to obtain for him an appointment of assistant-surgeon. That appointment was refused him; but he was
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not daunted; he went to the Continent, followed up his studies there, learned European languages, and afterwards returned to India, where he was appointed professor and lecturer in one of the many useful colleges that exist in the East, where he gained new honours. When he understood that by the Bill of last Session the obstacles which had prevented him obtaining the appointment he had applied for had been removed, he again sacrificed, or at least endangered, many important interests and everything that was dearest to him, and returned to England, not merely for the purpose of attaining the object of his own ambition, but of vindicating the right of every one of his countrymen to admission to civil employment under the East India Company. He held in his hand a letter from the Native gentleman of whom he was speaking, addressed to Sir Edward Ryan, in which he said—
"You will see me soon in London, for I wish to compete for an assistant surgeonship there. I shall have to run many risks, but I will brave them. I will have to leave my family, my private practice, and my college appointment; in addition to which, my trip will cost me from 5,000 to 6,000 rupees, a sum I am ill able to spare, especially if I do not succeed. However, this is my last chance, for I shall be twenty-eight on my next birthday, after which age candidates are ineligible."
He added that "even if he failed, it would be a satisfaction to him that he had used his best efforts in the service of his country, and that it was only a physical difficulty thrown in his way which had been the cause of his disappointment and loss." He came over and succeeded; but he believed that meritorious man was indebted to the powerful interposition of the noble and gallant Viscount near him (Viscount Hardinge) for regaining, on his return to India, the appointment he had originally held there, but which, nevertheless, he would have been willing to relinquish in order to fight the battle of his countrymen. Nor was this the only favour which he owed to his noble and gallant Friend. It had been said that there existed in India a great jealousy on the subject of the admission of Natives to such important positions in the public service. But this was a mistake. He was enabled to prove by one conclusive fact that this was no such thing. He (Lord Monteagle) had a letter from India, signed by exclusively British-born subjects in Calcutta, including Mr. Colville, Judge of the Supreme Court, Mr. Allen, Vice President of the Legislative Council, Mr.

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Grant, a member of the Supreme Council, several Judges, Mr. Goodeve, the distinguished botanist and geologist—a letter with which they presented Dr. Chuckerbutty with a purse of 100 guineas, in order to assist him to come home on the last occasion of his visit to England, for the purpose, it should be remembered, of entering into competition with English candidates. In that letter they express "the hearty interest they feel for the success of his undertaking, and their warm approval of the determination he had formed, in spite of many obvious difficulties, of seeking, by open and honourable competition with Englishmen, to be the first native of India who has obtained a covenanted appointment under this empire." They conclude by saying, "We sincerely hope, not only that you yourself may obtain success, but that you may be the pioneer of similar success to many others of your countrymen in future years." He (Lord Monteagle) had also heard various objections to the appointment of Native assistant-surgeons, the one more stupid than the other. The appointment of a Native assistant-surgeon was refused on the ground that it was incompatible with the safety of their Indian dominions; and he had heard that no European, particularly of the other sex, would call in the aid of medical gentlemen of Hindoo caste. But these objections, even if really felt, which he doubted, would speedily vanish. He thanked their Lordships for the indulgence with which they had listened to his statement. He hoped the House would interpose to give effect to their own generous intentions—that they would enforce the operation of their own measure, and that such an interpretation would be given to the Act as would prevent any attempt at a system of exclusion. The subject was a very important one, and he should be gratified and comforted if it led only to a renewed admission from the Government that natives of India were really eligible for offices in the civil service, under what may now be termed the Constitutional Act of the Empire in the East, as interpreted by the framers of that Act, and confirmed by the victory won by the perseverance and intellectual superiority of the young Brahmin who so successfully fought the battle of his country. His Lordship concluded by moving—
"That there be laid before the House, Copies or Extracts of any Correspondence between the Board of Control, the Court of Directors of the
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East India Company, and the Authorities in India, on the Report, dated November 1854, on the Examination of Candidates for the Civil Service of the East India Company: Also, On the Letter as to the Company's College at Haileybury, and Regulations framed for the Examination of Candidates for Appointments to time Civil Service of the East India Company: And also, On the Despatch to the Government of India on the Subject of general Education in India."
LORD ASEIBURTONsaid, that the speech of the noble Lord was a direct censure on the Committee from which the Report proceeded; for it would be a most severe imputation if it could be made out either that they intended to exclude natives from the covenanted service, or that they had so blundered as accidentally to bring about that result. There most assuredly was no intention to exclude the natives of India from the covenanted service of the Company. The evidence of Sir E. Ryan bore directly upon the question at issue. Sir Edward had given it as his opinion that those examinations had been so framed as to leave very considerable advantages to the natives. He said that in a competition in English composition, history, and literature, some Indians surpassed English students; and he (Lord Ashburton) very well understood how that could be; it would be just as a stranger who visited London for a few days would have a better chance of success in an examination upon London antiquities than a Londoner would have who had lived all his life in London, without paying any attention to antiquarian research. An Indian spent in the study of the English language and literature all those years which an Englishman spent in the study of the classical languages. Certainly, with regard to Latin, Greek, French, German, and Italian, an Englishman would possess certain advantages; but in mathematics, pure and unmixed, Sir Edward Ryan said the chances of an Indian were superior, the Indian genius being more apt in that department than the English; and in natural and moral sciences his chances were quite equal; while in Arabic and Sanscrit their superiority was necessarily considerable. Therefore, he thought the noble Lord ought to feel a little relieved from the excess of anxiety under which he was labouring. The noble Lord seemed to throw some slight slur upon the insertion of the French, German, and Italian languages in the curriculum in question; but if he thought that that kind of knowledge was really and absolutely required of candidates, he was much mistaken. The

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object of the Commissioners, he believed, was to make the first examination a trial of strength, to bring out the qualities, whatever they might be, of every candidate who presented himself, no matter where he had begun or completed his studies, and no matter what the nature of those studies might have been. Whatever a man knew was to be brought out, and it was for that reason that so very extensive a list of acquirements had been made up— it was sufficient if judgment and vigour of mind were exhibited with regard to any species of knowledge. If a man could show that he had exercised judgment and ability in the study of the German language, for instance, his knowledge, genius, and powers as displayed in that department would be counted to him. It was upon the same principle that the examination paper included Sanscrit and Arabic. If a man chanced to know Arabic, for instance, why should it be said to him, "You shall not have an opportunity of displaying the ability with which you have dipped into that language," for the object of the Commissioners was that whatever a man knew he should be enabled to come forward and show it? The Commissioners were most anxious that no one should be excluded from the competition, but that whatever candidates might have learned before, at London, Edinburgh, Dublin, or Aberdeen —whether they had studied French, or German, or Italian—if they showed that they had acquired correct knowledge on such matters and could exercise a satisfactory judgment upon that knowledge, they should be admitted as competitors. He (Lord Ashburton) entirely agreed with the earlier part of the speech of the noble Lord; he considered that there were many parts of the Act of last year which were of immense importance to the future interests of India, which would require the constant vigilance and superintendence on the part of the Legislature, as to the manner in which they were carried out, in order that they might be worked to good, and prevented from working mischief.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLEexpressed his gratification that the matter should have been brought under the consideration of the House by his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle). The attention of their Lordships was invited to two classes of persons who, in the legislation of this country, presented a strong contrast to each other—he referred to the assistant-surgeons and the civil servants of the East India Company.
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There was, however, this distinction between the two cases—that for the assistant-surgeon there were no medical colleges in India, so that it was necessary for them to come to England for a medical education. But, though there was no medical education to be obtained in India, there was every facility for obtaining an education to fit the natives of that country for the civil service of India; and it was perfectly impossible that the wants of the civil service in India could be supplied by forty youths annually sent out from this country, and he thought it would be most unjust to compel them to come to this country in order to acquire that which they could obtain as readily at home. He ventured to express a hope that the new President of the Board of Control, whenever he had any occasion to leave Cannon Row for advice, would not go further than the Admiralty. He (the Earl of Albemarle) had a most thorough conviction that if the India Bill of 1853 had been brought forward at the close instead of the commencement of the reign of the late President (Sir C. Wood), the experience which his right hon. Friend had gained before he quitted the office would have enabled him to produce a much different measure. He recommended the new President of the Board of Control to take into his counsels the new Secretary of that Board, who, as President of the Reform Association, had made himself acquainted with the necessities and wants of India, and he trusted that the appointment of the new Secretary was intended by the Government as an earnest of their intention to do justice to the people of India. Seeing the virtual impossibility of the natives of India taking advantage of the Act of 1853, from which his noble Friend (Lord Ashburton) disclaimed any intention of excluding them, he hoped that the Government would take steps to enable the inhabitants of India to fit themselves for the civil service without coming over here; and he would suggest that a certain number of appointments should be placed at the disposal of the Governor-General of India, so that the natives of that country or any British-Indian might have an opportunity of obtaining their fair share of the patronage of the Indian Government, from which they were at present excluded.
LORD WYNFORDsaid, that when it was considered that the natives of India would come a distance of 10,000 miles for the purpose of availing themselves of any advantages which they might derive from

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the Act of 1853, it was to deceive them and to deceive ourselves to say that there was any fair competition as regarded them. Although the energy of one man had overcome the difficulties with which the subjects of India had to contend—and he trusted that the future success of Mr. Chuckerbutty would be proportionate to the sacrifices which he had made to attain it—yet the Act was a mockery as a general measure. In order to make the examination fair towards all parties concerned, the place of examination ought to be the place where the honours were to be acquired. From all that lie could learn, he could not find that any Governor-General of India, any of the Directors of the East India Company, or any one experienced in the affairs of India, had been consulted in framing the measure now in operation, and he thought that something far more beneficial to the Government of India might have been devised if the attempt had been made.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he thought one point had been lost sight of in this debate—that the object and the duty of Parliament, of the Government, and of the Gentlemen who signed the Report which had been so often alluded to, was, in the first instance, to find the ablest men to conduct the government of India. No doubt one very great advantage would be to admit the natives to a share in that Government, but he doubted very much the advantage of greatly increasing the number of natives who should be admitted to the civil service of India, if, by removing the scene of competition from here to India, we admitted those who had not had an opportunity of showing their possession of that energy of character and moral courage which they must now exhibit to qualify themselves for that service. The noble Lord had, in referring to the case of Mr. Chuckerbutty, borne handsome testimony to the sincere desire of the Government to promote the advancement of the natives of India. He (Earl Granville) took that opportunity of saying that the Government viewed the success of that gentleman with the highest satisfaction, not only because it was in itself a well-merited reward of his talents and exertions, but because it disproved the tenor of the remarks made by many of the witnesses who gave evidence before the Committee of two years ago, who, while they spoke most strongly in favour of the attainments, the powers, the application, and perseverance of the natives of India, yet denied
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them the very quality of moral courage which Mr. Chuckerbutty had so signally displayed. It was unnecessary for him to say one word in praise of the scheme of education which was founded on the Minute of the Board of Directors, because the praise bestowed upon that document appeared to be universal, and some curiosity had been manifested as to who was its author—the Board of Directors or the President of the Board of Control. Nor would it be regular for him to say from whom it emanated. All he could say was, that in all the great reforms which had been introduced into the government of India during the last two years—greater within the last two years than any which had been carried out for many years previously—the President of the Board of Control and the Board of Directors had gone together in the most cordial manner. It was not necessary for him to enter into the question of Haileybury College, because there would be another opportunity for doing so when the Bill with respect to it came before the House. He believed, however, that it was clear that under the 41st and 42nd clauses of the late Act, it was competent for the East India Company to admit into their service, persons who had not been to Haileybury; nor could he help observing that if the system of education carried on there was open to the objections of Earl Grenville forty years ago, it would be impossible to support it along with the new system of education. It was impossible to send men whose attainments already qualified them for professors, to an establishment which was little better than a private school. He thought that the names of the gentlemen who had been appointed by the Government to prepare the scheme of examination for the candidates for Indian appointments were a sufficient proof of their sincere desire for the success of the project, and for the admission of the natives of Hindostan to a share in the patronage of the Government. Was it likely that Mr. Macaulay, who at an interval of twenty years had made probably the two most eloquent speeches that ever were delivered in favour of the natives, would now have lent himself to interpose obstacles in the way of their being fairly admitted into the Company's service?—or that, from want of sagacity, and of knowledge of what the natives could do, he should have produced a scheme which would be practically inoperative in that respect? The mistake made by those who had animadverted upon that

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scheme was this—they treated the whole number of marks allotted to the various subjects introduced in the Report as if it was one likely to be obtained by any single candidate. Now, the Report of the Commissioners stated that they did not expect any candidate could take more than half the total number, and, for himself, he (Earl Granville) did not think there was much chance of any candidate obtaining one-third. A great experiment had been entrusted to these gentlemen, and what had been done by the Commissioners and by the Government was, they had framed what they thought the very best scheme which, under present circumstances, could be adopted for the purpose of making this great experiment. There was no pretension on their part that the number of marks they had laid down as necessary should be kept unalterable, like the laws of the Medes and of the Persians, or that the limitation as to age should, under all circumstances, be strictly adhered to. All he asserted was, that, most honestly and, as he believed, most ably, the attempt had been made to render this the best possible scheme; and he had been informed, on very good authority, that one, if not more, of the natives of India would compete the very next year for the high prizes offered to them.
LORD MONTEAGLEbriefly replied, expressing his satisfaction at the discussion which had taken place, and at the sentiments which had been expressed by the noble Earl who had addressed the House on the part of the Government.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned till To-morrow.