HL Deb 01 March 1855 vol 136 cc2067-70
THE EARL OF EGLINTON

moved for a copy of a letter, addressed by the Right hon. T. F. Kennedy, on the 15th July, 1854, to his Grace the Duke of Argyll, Chairman of a Committee then sitting on the subject of the Crown Estates of Kilconcouse; also, copy of a letter addressed by Mr. S. G. Macculloch to the Right Hon. T. F. Kennedy, on the 1st September, 1854, and forwarded by Mr. Kennedy to the Secretary of the Treasury on the 26th February, 1855. The noble Earl said he was not going into the case of Mr. Kennedy, or to discuss the hardships to which he believed that gentleman had been a victim. He might have been tempted to bring the facts before their Lordships if they had not been so very fully discussed in the other House of Parliament, and which had resulted in Mr. Kennedy's zeal, integrity, and veracity being unanimously allowed by the speakers on both sides of the other House. Their Lordships would remember that, in the last Session of Parliament, a Motion was made for a Committee to inquire into the management of the Crown Estates of Kilconcouse, and that, in consequence, a Committee was appointed. In the course of their labours the Committee examined Mr. Kennedy, one of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, and, as a witness, he gave, as he (the Earl of Eglinton) believed, distinct and very voluminous evidence. Later in the investigation, Mr. Wilson, the Secretary of the Treasury, was also examined, and his evidence came to the knowledge of Mr. Kennedy, who was induced to conceive that the statements made by Mr. Wilson had been such as to be in direct opposition to matters of fact and the statements made by Mr. Kennedy himself. Mr. Kennedy thereupon wrote a letter to the noble Duke the Lord Privy Seal (the Duke of Argyll), who was Chairman of the Committee, dated the 15th July, 1854, in which he requested the noble Duke to allow him to be re-examined if any doubt existed with regard to those matters of fact upon which he had been examined. Mr. Kennedy also requested that letter to be laid before the Committee, and further, that it might be printed with the evidence. He (the Earl of Eglinton) thought that Mr. Kennedy had some slight cause of offence against the noble Duke, because the noble Duke never answered his letter; and, in the second place, the request which he made to be re-examined at that time should be laid before the Committee was not done. At any rate, he (the Earl of Eglinton) was not aware of it. He believed some doubt existed respecting the letter having been read. Mr. Kennedy requested that the letter should be published along with the evidence, but that was not complied with. He (the Earl of Eglinton) thought he had a right to ask the noble Duke to allow this letter to appear. It was of great consequence that Mr. Kennedy should be examined upon the subject, and therefore he hoped the noble Duke would have no objection to his Motion. It would appear as evidence of Mr. Kennedy's veracity on that occasion. He (the Earl of Eglinton) had also given the noble Duke notice that he meant to include in his Motion that a copy of a letter written by Mr. M'Culloch on the 20th September last, and forwarded on the 26th of last month to the Treasury, should be laid upon the table of the House. The letter written by Mr. Kennedy to Mr. M'Culloch mentioned that a report had reached him that Mr. Wilson's evidence varied from his own, and he wrote to ask Mr. M'Culloch for his opinion as to whether he thought there were any discrepancies in his evidence. Mr. M'Culloch's opinion, given at considerable length, entirely bore out Mr. Kennedy's statements contradicted by Mr. Wilson. He (the Earl of Eglinton) was quite aware that Mr. Kennedy's character for integrity, veracity, and zeal in the discharge of his duties had been most satisfactorily spoken to by many Members of the other House of Parliament, but the noble Duke would pardon him for saying that Mr. Kennedy's character, after he had been for so many years a useful public servant, should not, in this minor particular, be suspected. He therefore hoped the noble Duke would not refuse to grant the Motion which he had made.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, that with regard to the first letter it was impossible for him to comply with the noble Earl's request, inasmuch as he did not remain in possession of it. When the noble Earl first spoke to him upon this subject he had no very distinct recollection of having received a letter from Mr. Kennedy; but owing to the kindness of the noble Earl he had been able to refresh his memory on the subject, and he now recollected the circumstances with sufficient distinctness to state them shortly to the House. During the examination of Mr. Wilson, certain statements were made by him which reached the ears of Mr. Kennedy, and which were contradictory, as he thought, to statements of fact made at a previous examination by Mr. Kennedy himself; and previous to the last meeting of the Committee Mr. Kennedy addressed a letter to him, as Chairman of the Committee, the contents of which had been accurately described by the noble Earl. His recollection was, that he did mention the receipt of the letter, and read part of it to the Committee, but they all unanimously agreed that there was not a shadow of doubt upon their minds as to the veracity of Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kennedy's request to be re-called and re-examined before the Committee was contingent upon their having doubts of his veracity; and as they did not enter- tain any doubt on the subject, he was not further communicated with. He thought there was considerable objection, on public grounds, to time production of the second letter referred to by the noble Duke. After a Committee of their Lordships' House had taken all the evidence they thought necessary on a particular subject, and had concluded their investigations and laid their Report before the House, it was not competent for any private individual to reopen the matter some months afterwards by sending a letter to the Treasury traversing some of the statements made before the Committee. It was perfectly obvious that there were no means of testing the correctness of the statements contained in such a letter by cross-examination or other means, and he therefore thought it would not be right to produce it.

THE EARL OF EGLINTON

said, it was quite palpable that the noble Duke could not grant the first part of the Motion, as the letter was not in existence, and, therefore, he should not press for its production. As to the second part of the Motion, no doubt there was very considerable truth in what the noble Duke had said. But he must remind the noble Duke that he was somewhat in error with regard to the statement of that Committee very generally decided that Mr. Kennedy need not be reexamined.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, nothing occurred to impress the Committee with the slightest doubt as to Mr. Kennedy's veracity.

LORD MONTEAGLE,

as a Member of the Committee, must say that, with respect to the evidence of Mr. Kennedy, there was no difference of opinion on the mind of any individual Member as to his veracity. It was probably to be regretted that a little more time was not given to the subject, and then the letter might have been brought before the Committee. Now, however, after so many months had expired, it would be very difficult to allow any document which was not then before the Committee to be referred to.

Then the said Motion was (by leave of the House) withdrawn.