FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. (Hansard, 26 June 1855)

§ LORD PORTMAN
said, with respect to the question of privilege they could not have a higher authority than a noble Lord who had so recently come from the other House of Parliament; but he believed, notwithstanding the assurance the noble Lord had given, that their Lordships would agree with him in thinking that questions of privilege should be touched upon but tenderly in that House. With respect to the arguments which the noble Lord had used in support of his proposition, he would first advert to the question of fact. The necessity for the proviso had arisen out of an adjudication of the Court of Common Pleas, by which the privileges of members of friendly societies were extended to benefit building societies, for whom they were not originally intended. The more important question, however, was the reason why the proviso imposed such limitations. Under the Benefit Building Societies Act transfers were exempted from the payment of stamp duty up to the amount of 150l., but it had been found that the 118 shares of such societies were usually 120l. each, paid by instalments of 12s. a month, and by the proviso it was proposed to extend the exemption to 240l., the amount of two shares. By the decision of the Court of Common Pleas that exemption had been claimed and allowed upon transfers to the amount of even 1,000l.; and it was quite clear that such persons were receiving the advantage of an exemption which was originally intended to be conferred upon the provident poor alone. The noble Lord said that injury was done by this clause, and that it would prevent certain classes who had hitherto enjoyed the exemption from continuing to obtain it. But there could be no complaint of injustice being done to them, because, as he had shown, they were not the parties originally exempted in the Benefit Building Societies Act.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
thought that the reply of the noble Lord to the arguments of his noble Friend was hardly any answer at all to those arguments, or to the objections which he had stated. The grounds on which the proviso should not be introduced in the present Bill were clear and manifest. The Bill was introduced for what was certainly a very useful object—namely, the consolidation and amendment of the great variety of Acts affecting Friendly Societies, and so far as the Bill carried out the original intention with which it was introduced, no human being objected to it. But it occurred to the Secretary of the Treasury during the progress of the Bill that there was an opportunity of increasing the public revenue by introducing into it a clause affecting a different class of societies altogether, and which were not at all mentioned in any of the Acts the Bill proposed to consolidate, but which depended for their existence on a totally different series of statutes—the Building Societies Act. Now, when a Bill of such an unobjectionable kind was introduced into the other House of Parliament, he thought it was a very hard thing that the Secretary of the Treasury should come down to the parties proposing the Bill, and say to them that they should not have the support of the Government unless they would consent to introduce into their Bill a proviso that had nothing whatever to do with it. Yet it was under that compulsion that the clause in question was introduced. The noble Lord had said that the wealthier classes had taken advantage of exemptions 119 to which they were not entitled. The Building Societies, however, enjoyed no exemption with regard to stamp duties upon mortgages or transactions of that nature; the only exemption they possessed being with respect to the transfer of property, as between the societies and the members composing such societies. It was only with regard to these transfers, which were, so to speak, merely domestic affairs, that the Building Societies under the existing Act enjoyed an exemption from stamp duties. The persons who were permitted to enjoy this exemption were generally artisans, who were enabled by industry and economy to lay aside from their earnings some 2l. or 3l. a month, which they invested in these Building Societies. The exemption had been deliberately granted by the Legislature in order to encourage Building Societies, and he contended that it was not just, right, or fair to the parties, or honest as between the Legislature and the industrious classes of the country, to take away from them exemptions under which they had entered into engagements and subscribed money to those societies in a Bill professing merely to consolidate Acts relating to a totally different class of societies. For these reasons he should support the Amendment for the omission of the proviso.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
said, the noble Lord appeared to misapprehend the reason why this clause had been introduced into this Bill at a late stage of its progress in the other House. Under the Benefit Building Societies Act stamps upon transfers were exempted up to 150l. That continued until the fourth clause of that Act was construed by the Court of Common Pleas with the eighth clause of the Friendly Societies Act, and thus the privileges of those societies were extended to the benefit of the Building Societies, for which they were never intended. At the time when these societies were established they were confined within very moderate limits; but they had since assumed a more extensive character, resembling, in some respects, banks of deposit. The Government, therefore, thought the continuance of the exemption would be attended with considerable injustice; under these circumstances, it was thought proper, when the Bill for consolidating the Friendly Societies Acts was passing through Parliament, to insert a clause which would restore matters to their original position; but representations 120 having been made to the Secretary of the Treasury, that the alteration in the law would be attended with hardship in certain cases, the exemption had been extended to amounts of 240l. instead of 150l.

§ THE EARL OF DERBY
observed, that there was not a single word contained in the Building Societies Act as to the amount which should be exempted from taxation. On the contrary, the transfer of any number of shares was exempted from the operation of the Act if the amount did not exceed 150l. each share. By adopting this proviso the House would say that a member of any of these societies holding more than two shares would be deprived of the benefit of the exemption provided in the Act.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
expressed the satisfaction he had experienced from seeing the growth of the societies in question, and the benefit they had conferred on the poorer classes, especially in encouraging habits of providence and foresight. He thought it would he exceedingly injudicious to take any steps which would tend in the slightest degree to discourage them; and, with respect to the proviso under consideration, he quite concurred in the opinion that it had no right to be in that Bill at all. It was not mentioned in any of the enacting clauses, nor included in the title; so that the societies had not had any notice that their interests would be affected by it. He should therefore support the Amendment.

§ THE EARL OF ELLESMERE
hoped that the noble Lord who introduced the Bill would not consider it inconsistent with his duty to abandon this proviso. It was said that it was not for the advantage of the poor, but for the advantage of the rich that the exemption should be maintained. That, however, was not an argument that ought to weigh with their Lordships. Most of the large towns throughout the country were deeply interested in the question; but he believed it would be found that it was very seldom that men of extensive capital were induced to invest money in these societies. At any rate, though the matter might be one for inquiry, it ought not to be taken for granted without explanation. If the proviso were pressed to a division he should certainly feel bound to vote for the Amendment.

List of the CONTENT.
DUKE.	Bantry
Northumbeland	Bandon
MARQUESSES.	Harrington
Bath	VISCOUNTS.
Salisbury	Bangor
Drogheda	Hawarden
Westminster	BISHOP.
Winchester.	Exeter
EARLS.	BARONS.
Derby	Wynford
Eglinton	Colchester
Malmesbury	Dinevor
Stradbroke	Lyndhurst
Ellenborough	Sondes
Stanhope	Walsingham
Carnarvon	Downes
Haddington	Colville of Culross
Kingston	Redesdale
Shaftesbury	Ravensworth
Delawarr	Polwarth
Ellesmere	Plunket
Lucan	Monteagle
Powis	Lilford
Talbot	Vaux
Beauchamp	Wharncliffe
Macclesfield	Berners
Leitrim