Lords Sitting of 21 June 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Stamp Duties Repeal on Matriculation and Degrees (Oxford); Grants of Lands; Public Libraries and Museums (Ireland); Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000); Spirit of Wine.
Reported—Duchy of Lancaster Lands (1855); Militia (No. 2).
3a Leases and Sales of Settled Estates; Cinque Ports; Insurance on Lives Abatement of Income Tax Continuance.

PUBLIC OFFICES.
EARL GRANVILLE,referring to an answer given by him on a former evening to a question put to him on the subject of an offer recently made to the Government to build new public offices on certain terms, said that, though it had been very far from his intention to cast any slur on any one, yet he understood that a gentleman concerned in the offer had felt himself aggrieved by the terms he had used with regard to the amount of security required from the parties by the Government. He had, therefore, great pleasure in reading the following letter, which he had received from his right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works on the subject—
"My Dear Lord Granville—When Mr. Stapleton had an interview with me on the subject, I did not ask him what pecuniary 'security' he could give for the execution of his scheme, but took time to consider the principle of his proposal. On reflection I came to the conclusion that the principle was one which ought not to be sanctioned by a Government, that it would be no saving of expense to the Government, and that the Government would have better security for the due execution of the works required, by performing them, than by contracting with gentlemen who wished to engage in this speculation.
"Yours truly, WILLIAM MOLESWORTH.
"Office of Works, June 6th."
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYthought that the Government had overlooked the two great advantages contained in this offer—the certainty of the time when the offices would he finished, and the certainty of the sum which they would cost.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHhoped that, if ever this plan of bringing all the public offices under one roof were adopted, the Government would not forget that one roof might be burnt at one time. No adequate precautions had been taken against that danger in the long galleries of that House, and if ever a fire did get possession of one of those galleries it would be perfectly impossible to get it under. The proper principle would be to build separate blocks of buildings, communicating with each other by means of bridges.
LORD BROUGHAMpointed out the great convenience of setting aside a separate chamber for the transaction of the judicial business of the House.

OUTRAGE ON A FLAG OF TRUCE AT HANGO.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I rise to draw the attention of Her Majesty's Government, and to ask from them information in respect to a subject which has filled the public mind of this country, and I doubt not of the whole of civilised Europe, with feelings of horror and indignation. Your Lordships will readily understand that I allude to the massacre on the coast of Russia, near Hango, of a boat's crew, with the officers in command, belonging to Her Majesty's ship Cossack. It will hardly be necessary for me, my Lords, to go into the details of this cruel and unjustifiable act, for your Lordships will already have read the despatch of Captain Fanshawe, of the Cossack, to Admiral Dundas, who sent the boat whose crew were made the victims of this wanton outrage to land certain Russian prisoners at their own request at Hango, and in which those details are fully stated. It will be sufficient, therefore, for me to remind your Lordships that the boat contained Russian prisoners who were to be landed under a flag of truce, and was commanded by the lieutenant of the Cossaek, a surgeon, and one or two petty officers, who had charge of the prisoners; that these prisoners had been allowed themselves to select the part of the Russian coast at which they wished to be landed at; that they were accordingly to be landed at a wharf near Hango. It appears that when the boat approached the

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shore at Hango, and when the men landed on the wharf, no sign of life was seen excepting one man; but suddenly the boat's crew and the liberated prisoners also were attacked by a large armed force, who fired upon them and massacred all, with the exception of one, a man named John Brown, who, though badly wounded, managed to escape in the boat. Not only were the party defenceless, but, according to this man's account, the officer in command, Lieutenant Geneste, was shot down while in the act of waving the flag of truce over his head, and while one of the Russian prisoners was explaining in the Russian language to the attacking party the circumstances under which, and the object for which, the landing had taken place; and it further appears that when the atrocity had been consummated, the Russian soldiers went down into the boat and threw overboard, not only the bodies of the dead, but those also who were wounded. Such is the account given by Captain Fanshawe to Admiral Dundas, upon the authority of the man Brown. When Admiral Dundas was first made acquainted with these facts, he naturally imagined that there had been some act of indiscretion, or that some omission in displaying the flag of truce, or some fault on the part of the lieutenant in command of the boat, had taken place, and would be made the excuse for the perpetration of this wanton violation of all national and of all human law; and accordingly he wrote to Captain Fanshawe, putting to him a number of questions categorically, all of which being answered satisfactorily, Admiral Dundas became convinced that no blame whatsoever applied either to Captain Fanshawe, to the officer in command of the boat, or to any of the crew. It is, however, but fair to add, that not many hours ago an account had reached London, and which appears in the second edition of a morning paper, giving the Russian version of this melancholy affair. That account states that the whole of the boat's crew were not killed, but that nine of the men and two of the officers were taken prisoners, three or four of whom are wounded, and the rest, they say, were killed in resisting the Russian troops who attacked them when they landed. Not a word of the flag of truce is mentioned in this account; but I have thought it fair to state to your Lordships what is the Russian version of the story, so far as we know it. But, even assuming that this version is correct, and that nine, or rather eleven
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men, including the two officers, were taken prisoners, though it mitigates in some degree the horrible cruelty which, according to our own version, had been perpetrated, still it in nowise exculpates the Russian soldiers, and more especially the officer who commanded them, from the complete and wanton breach of the law of nations which they have committed. The killing even of one man, or the taking even of a single man prisoner, while under the safeguard of a flag of truce, is an infraction of the law of nations, and of the law of honourable warfare, derived from the ancient code of the Middle Ages, for the purpose of restraining men's passions when not engaged in actual conflict, and which is adopted by every civilised nation. A flag of truce has always been honoured and held sacred—in every age and by every nation—it is necessary for the interests of humanity, and for the protection of the soldiers themselves—and I scarcely know of an instance of its having been violated. I believe if you trace history throughout you will not find a parallel either in ancient or modern times to this atrocious act. My Lords, it is not so much for the purpose of repressing the feelings of horror with which I have heard of this atrocious tragedy that I have risen on this occasion, as to ask Her Majesty's Government what course they intend to pursue under the circumstances? It appears to me to be the interest, not only of the Government of this country, whose subjects have perished in this cruel manner, but of every Government in the world, to take notice of such an act—and certainly it is the interest of every Sovereign in Europe, as it is the interest of every officer and of every soldier of every army in Europe, to demand that it should be noticed, and the perpetrators of it visited with condign punishment, in order that that sense of honour and of humanity which is inherent in every man's breast may be upheld in the wars of civilised nations. How this is to be done—how punishment is to follow this violation of the sacred law of nations—I wish to know from Her Majesty's Government. It is not for me to suggest the means, but I am sure Her Majesty's Government will not think me out of place in making these remarks, and inquiring of my noble Friend opposite, the President of the Council, what course they intend to pursue?
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, although the question put by my noble Friend has been addressed to my

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noble Friend the President of the Council, I am, perhaps, in a better position to answer, and, with the permission of your Lordships, I will do so. My noble Friend has accurately stated all the facts of the case, and the manner in which this atrocity was carried into effect, and he has characterised it in a manner which must be in unison with the universal feelings entertained by your Lordships. It is an outrage so horrible and unparalleled, so utterly at variance with the usages of war and the customs of civilised nations, that we are compelled to believe that the perpetrators of it cannot have acted upon the instructions or have met with the approval of their superiors. I think it only reasonable to suppose in the first instance, till we have further information, that such was the case; and I say this the more, because it does appear that it must have been the brutal act of some unauthorised subordinate—for I see that Captain Fanshawe, in his despatch, expresses an opinion that the person who directed the force and gave the orders to fire might not be an officer. On receiving information of the transaction, I lost not a moment in forwarding the papers detailing the circumstances to Her Majesty's Minister at Copenhagen, instructing him to request the Danish Government to send instructions to the Danish Minister at St. Petersburg—of whose friendly zeal on behalf of British subjects and British interests it is impossible to speak too highly—requesting him to bring the matter to the notice of the Russian Government, and to state that Her Majesty's Government waited with extreme anxiety to learn what steps they had taken, or intended to take, to mark their sense of this brutal outrage—an outrage which might possibly have happened in some one of the savage islands of the South Sea without exciting any great degree of surprise, but which was not to be expected in civilised Europe, and which, if not amply punished, would demand severe reprisals. Under these circumstances, my noble Friend will see that it is not until we know what steps the Russian Government have, I hope, taken in the matter that we can determine what course it may become Her Majesty's Government to adopt.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, the course taken by Her Majesty's Government seemed to him quite proper; but he considered it extremely probable that the English Admiral had already acted on the information he received, and had already
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made a communication to the Russian Government; and he therefore thought it desirable that the communication between the Danish Government and their Minister at St. Petersburg should pass through the English Admiral.
THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, that the Danish Minister would, of course, communicate to the British Admiral what steps were taken; but he was not aware that the British Government could communicate with the Russian Government in any other manner than that he had referred to.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHrepeated his opinion that the English Admiral, upon receiving Captain Fanshawe's report, would have sent a flag of truce to the Russian authorities, probably to the High Admiral of the Russian navy, and would have communicated all the facts, in order that the Russian authorities might take some steps in respect to the transaction. Under these circumstances, he thought that it would be prudent that any further correspondence on the subject should be carried on in communication with the English Admiral.
EARL GRANVILLEquite agreed with his noble Friend (the Earl of Clarendon) that this most wanton outrage must be disowned by the Russian Government; but, if that were not the case, what security would there then be that a flag of truce from the English Admiral would not be treated in a similar manner—though he hardly thought so—to the way in which the flag of truce from the Cossack was treated? If there should be a double representation made to the Russian Government on the subject—one through the English Admiral, and another through the Danish Minister—he saw no great inconvenience in that circumstance, for it was desirable that the matter should be brought to a conclusion as soon as possible, because the feelings of indignation which must be excited by the transaction, unless those feelings were prevented by some act on the part of the Russian Government, would necessarily tend to add still more to the horrors of war.
In reply to the Earl of SHAFTESBURY,
THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, that the number of Russian troops engaged in the affair appeared to amount to about 500, but he could not say whether or not they were regular troops.
LORD COLCHESTERthought that in any such case as this it was the duty

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of the officer commanding Her Majesty's forces immediately to communicate by a flag of truce with the highest authority he could find, mentioning the circumstances, and demanding that the atrocity should be disclaimed.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he took it to be quite clear, that when his noble Friend expressed a hope that the Russian Government would disclaim and disown this shameful outrage, he must have meant to express a hope that it would not only disclaim and disown the act, but that it would also punish the perpetrators of a deed so extraordinary and so cruel. If ever the land cried for blood it was now.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he had no fault to find with the course taken by Her Majesty's Government, which he thought was as judicious a course as could be taken under the circumstances; but he trusted that if the circumstances were found to be as described, and the Russian Government tried by any subterfuge to escape from the liability to which they had exposed themselves by sanctioning or at least by permitting the act to go unpunished, Her Majesty's Government would take further measures in the matter. The noble Earl used the word "reprisals." He could not, at that moment, think of any reprisals that would be at all satisfactory to the feelings of the people of this country. If reprisals meant vengeance in the shape of offensive acts against Russian subjects, they would be imbued with the same cruelty which we now protested against, and would bring dishonour upon those who employed them, and would not be satisfactory. What he should like to see his noble Friend do would be to bring the force of public opinion in Europe and throughout Christendom to bear against this act. If he were in his noble Friend's place, he would appeal to every Government that was an ally of Her Majesty, to every State that had a civilised Sovereign, and to every free kingdom that had civilised subjects and civilised laws, to protest before the Cabinet at St. Petersburg against such an atrocity. This Sovereign would then see that, however great and powerful he was, the force of public opinion would be too strong for him, and be would be compelled to bow before the representations made by nations more civilised, as powerful, and as honourable as his own. He asked, therefore, if it was the intention of the Government to bring this matter before a jury of nations? Nothing but that would give
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satisfaction, while anything like vengeance would only increase public disgust.
EARL GRANVILLEentirely agreed with the sentiment just expressed by his noble Friend, that it would be wrong to enter upon a course of retaliation. His noble Friend said he had ransacked history with reference to this question; but he begged to remind him of a remarkable instance in which the Duke of York issued a general order in reply to a sanguinary decree of the French Convention, in which he expressed sentiments that excited the greatest satisfaction on both sides, and so called forth the generous feelings of the French soldiery as to make them disobey the orders they had received, and act in the generous spirit in which the order of the British general had been conceived.

MEASUREMENT OF MERCHANT STEAMERS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEin moving the second reading of this Bill said, it was not intended to make any change in the present law of tonnage, but he was desirous that some addition should be made to the existing law as affected measurement and registration. He regretted that certain returns which he had moved for, and which would have thrown considerable light on the question, had not yet been made. The Government had recently employed in the transport service 210,000 tons of shipping at an expenditure of 3,000,000 l., and he believed there was an estimated amount of about 5,000,000 l. more to be paid. It was not surprising, therefore, that he should inquire whether they were paying so large a sum of money for tonnage that was as available as it might have been for public purposes. The question of tonnage really meant power of carriage coupled with speed. The mode of ascertaining tonnage by measurement was of very ancient date; it seemed to have been satisfactory to merchants and builders, and it was a system which met the wants and wishes of the country so long as vessels were propelled by wind and sails; but the application of steam to purposes of navigation had materially altered the circumstances of the case, and afforded cogent reason for a total change in the system of registration and measurement. Now, the internal measurement of a ship, by which the tonnage was at present calculated, was merely an imperfect statement

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of its room, and of its means of holding a certain quantity of materials within a given space; but, then, the question arose, what materials these might be? Say that a ship contained 100 cubic feet of space, if that space were filled with iron the weight might be twenty or thirty tons; if it were filled with lead the weight would be still greater; while if it were filled with straw the weight would be considerably less;—so that it was clear that the means a ship had of carrying weight were not at all indicated by her internal vacant space. It was, however, necessary that persons who wished to purchase the use of a ship, or to obtain her services, should possess the means of ascertaining accurately what quantity of materials she would carry. He would show their Lordships, by the case of two of her Majesty's ships, that it was possible for the tonnage of a vessel to represent by measure an amount which her real power of carrying did not approach, while, on the other hand, the tonnage of a ship by measurement might in reality be very much beneath her real capacity. Her Majesty's yacht Fairy measured 313 tons, but could only carry 176 tons, and, supposing the Government or a merchant were to hire a vessel of the same form as the Fairy, paying upon a tonnage of 313 tons, and were to put that quantity of goods on board, the ship would undoubtedly sink. The Cruiser, another of Her Majesty's ships, measured 540 tons by the present legal mode of registering tonnage, but owing to her form would carry 1,013 tons. He thought, therefore, these facts showed that the mode in which tonnage was now measured and registered did not truly represent the capacity of a ship. He would now refer to the question of steam power. At the present moment no law whatever existed in this country for the registration of steam power. There was no law that fixed any unit of power by which merchants or the Government could tell at what speed a steam-vessel could be propelled, or for what period of time she could be enabled to sustain that degree of propulsion, or what her carrying powers were in conjunction with her speed. He considered that it was imperative upon the Government and the country, for the advantage of merchants, shipbuilders, hirers of ships, and all persons concerned in transit on the ocean, that an approximation to a unit of power should be established by law. James Watt, to whom the invention of the steam-engine had been
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attributed, put down the unit of horsepower at 33,000 lb. raised one foot per minute, and this was yet regarded by the makers of steam-engines as the unit by which steam power was to be calculated; but such had been the improvements effected in the steam-engine of late years that that unit was entirely useless for all calculations. He would mention the case of four of Her Majesty's ships—the Trident, the Retribution, the Caradoc, and the Elfin. The Trident was nominally of 350 horse-power, but her indicators snowed her to be of 492 horse-power; the engines of the Retribution were nominally of 400 horse-power, but when worked they were found to be 1,092; the engines of the Caradoc were nominally of 350 horse-power, but they worked up to 1,600 horse-power; and the engines of the Elfin, nominally of 40 horse-power, worked up to 244. He found also that the real horsepower of the Encounter was double her nominal power; the real power of the Agamemnon was three times, and that of the Undine four times, of the Banshee five times, and of the Elfin six times the nominal power of those several ships. He wished their Lordships to consent to establish a new unit as the unit of power, approximating to the real power of the steam-engine, so that the public might be enabled to calculate the value of a steam-vessel. A scientific friend of his, who had directed his attention to the question of steamship capabilities, had laid down a unit, which he proposed to be taken as a standard of what might be called in future "marine horse-power." In making his calculations, the gentleman in question took ten vessels, and by taking their nominal horse-power in the first instance, then deducting 15 per cent for friction and other matters connected with the engine itself, and dividing the whole sum of the indicated horse-power of the ten vessels by the nominal horse-power, it was found that 132,000 lb. raised one foot per minute was the unit of the horse-power of the ten vessels. The vessels, however, were of a peculiar construction, and therefore 32,000 lb. were deducted, which left 100,000 lb. raised one foot per minute as the unit of the horse-power. By adopting this unit the House would have some groundwork upon which to calculate the power of the steam-engine, and having once embodied in the law and registered a power to be called "the marine horse-power," taking 100,000 lb. raised one foot per minute as

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the unit, they would supply the public with data upon which to form an accurate estimate in future of the power and capabilities of any vessel they might engage. He now came to another part of the subject having reference to the change which he proposed to introduce into the system of measuring steam-vessels. In substituting a new system for that already in practice, he thought that nothing could be easier than to rectify an error which had crept into the present system. In every ship now built the builder was perfectly acquainted with the "displacement" of every vessel that left his yard—the quantity of water which she put aside, and displaced in her immersion in the water. All that he desired now was to have a register of the displacement, which would give the weight of the hull of a vessel, and indicate what she could carry in weight. The present measurement might be retained; and having thus accurately shown both the roomage and tonnage, any merchant engaging a vessel would be enabled to calculate exactly what she would be able to carry. At present, when a vessel was constructed upon the stocks, the builder was compelled by law to mark an indelible line upon her stem and sternposts and amidships, showing her draught of water, previous to receiving on board any of her equipment or engines, and thus the exact weight of her body was ascertained. He now proposed that, in addition to the launching draught of the ship, her light draught, showing the displacement of water when she was fitted up with machinery and rigged and equipped for service, and also her deep draught, representing what she would carry when loaded, should be marked in indelible marks upon her stem and sternposts and amidships. A clause embodied in the Bill would compel the builder, under penalties, to delineate these lines upon the hull of the vessel. Under the present law it was perfectly impossible that a merchant could know even what roomage tonnage he would be entitled to have, because the roomage tonnage must depend upon the quantity of fuel put into her before the use of her was obtained. Suppose a vessel of 5,000 tons displacement were engaged to make a passage of 1,000 miles, at the rate of eight knots, or miles an hour, 172 horse-power would be all that would be required to propel that vessel, and she would be enabled to carry a cargo of 2,738 tons. But if she were engaged to go the same distance at the
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rate of ten miles an hour, she would require 336 horse-power, and would be enabled to carry a cargo, not of 2,738, but of 2,524 tons. To go at the rate of eighteen miles an hour—a speed now frequently obtained—she would require 1,961 horse-power, and would only be able to carry a cargo of 585 tons. If they wished for a speed of twenty miles an hour, she would carry no cargo at all, because upon a voyage of 1,000 miles driven at that speed her whole available space would be required for the coal she would consume upon her voyage; and this, he thought, was an additional reason why they should know the actual capacity of a ship. He had thus shortly endeavoured to state the grounds upon which he desired that the law should enable us to obtain the weight-carrying powers of our vessels, and at the same time their true powers of propulsion and speed. He had ventured, also, to put into the Bill a clause which, he thought, would be of great value to the passenger traffic of the country, forbidding any steam-vessel having passengers on board to load beyond her deep-draught water line. If this were done, it would effectually secure to the passengers safety from those accidents which now often arose from overloaded ships, while, on the other hand, was not too much to require from the builder and the merchant, on the part of the public, that the immersion of the ship should not be inconsistent with her perfect security. He was confident that at the present moment, and according to the present mode of dealing with shipping power and tonnage, no man would be very willing to engage in shipping affairs who had not some previous knowledge on the subject; but, if these matters were placed upon a clear and intelligible footing, so that the buyer and the hirer might know perfectly what they were about, it would tend very much to the improvement of the shipping interest generally, by inducing many persons to enter into the business. He was sure that this subject would be taken up by the public, and that the Government would be compelled to adopt at some period or other, if not the details, at all events, the principles of the Bill the second reading of which he now proposed. If they permitted routine to interfere on this occasion—not proper and necessary routine, but that which, under cover of some obsolete law, took no heed of the science and ability of the country—he was convinced that ultimately this subject

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would be forced upon Parliament from out of doors. Let the Government call together scientific men and take up this question, acting on the advice of those who could guide them; and, if they did so, he should with great pleasure place this Bill in their hands, and leave it to them to pass into a law, with such improvements as they might think fit.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, that if the noble Earl, with all his professional knowledge of the subject, felt its technical difficulties, he might well be excused if he owned that it was impossible for him to argue this question upon its own merits and to enter into details with which he was not competent to deal. But he hoped, on general grounds, to show sufficient reasons to induce their Lordships to believe that they would not be committing an error if they declined to entertain the second reading of this Bill. The object of the measurement of ships was, first, to procure a test of the size of a ship for the purpose of paying light, dock, and other dues; and, secondly, to get a fair estimate of its capacity to carry. Of the two modes of testing the capacity of a ship—first, by displacement, in order to ascertain her weight; and, secondly, by measurement, to ascertain the available space—it was obviously, for ordinary purposes, more important to ascertain the number of cubic feet in a vessel; and to accomplish that object the late alterations were made, in accordance with the principle formerly observed, so as to give a more perfect and accurate measurement of the capacity of a ship in cubic feet. The subject had been brought before the consideration of the Government by a Commission, which heard evidence and considered plans from different parts of the country. That Commission recommended Moorsom's plan for adoption, and this plan was submitted to all the local marine boards, the Trinity House, Lloyd's, and to the Admiralty, in order to ascertain whether they thought the mode of measurement in question was the best which could be adopted. The result was, that these important bodies universally recommended the adoption of Moorsom's plan, the only dissentients being one assistant-surveyor and one master shipwright in Her Majesty's dockyard. The system now in operation was not, therefore, as had been stated, an obsolete and effete one, showing an adherence to routine of the worst description, nor had the
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Government refused to open their eyes and ears to the recommendations of men of science. So far from this being the case, the Government were at all times most ready to receive any objections to the existing system, or communications as to the introduction of a better; but up to this moment not one single objection had been urged to the present mode of measurement, either by the Mercantile Marine Boards or the Admiralty; and, therefore, he thought no sufficient case had been made out for the adoption of a new system. Besides this, he had consulted with the principal authorities, with the Surveyor of the Navy, the Assistant Surveyor, and the Chief Engineer, who assured him that the plan proposed in this Bill was impracticable, and that, even if it could be carried into effect, it would be useless. All seemed to depend on this—whether it was possible to ascertain the draught water line upon launching a ship. Now, as he was informed, it was impossible to ascertain this until the vessel actually went to sea, and even then it depended upon many circumstances which were not always the same. Four eminent shipbuilders had decided against the plan proposed by the noble Earl, and how could it be expected that in all the ports of this country, where ships were built, ordinary shipbuilders would be able to fix the line of flotation? The noble Earl had stated that by the plan which he proposed it would be known at once what amount of goods a ship contained; but he thought that the system at present in use effected that purpose. The noble Earl had also stated that the present system was an arbitrary one; but, in his opinion the plan proposed by the noble Earl would be equally so. He himself was not competent to deal with such questions, but he had been guided by the opinions of those who were most competent to do so, and all those persons whom he had consulted were unanimous in favour of the existing system, and thought that no substantial benefit would be gained by adopting the present proposal. The present mode of measurement was adopted, with variations, by all the nations in the world; and, as at present advised, he could not ask their Lordships to change it for the system set forth in the Bill of the noble Earl.
Amendment moved to leave out "now," and insert "this day six months."
LORD COLCHESTERmaintained that the present system of measurement was

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extremely defective, and, therefore, he thought that their Lordships ought to be much obliged to his noble Friend (the Earl of Hardwicke) for having called their attention to this important subject. He thought that the Bill which had been proposed adopted those scientific improvements which the reports of various Commissions justified, and he hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would give it a second reading.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEreplied. He thought that the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had overlooked one fact entirely, namely, that no system of tonnage registration existed. That which was now called the tonnage was, in fact, the room-age of a ship. He would illustrate the nature of the present mode of measurement by an example. A ship might be filled—all her so-called tonnage entirely occupied—by ladies' bonnets, and yet she would not draw one foot more water than she did when empty; while, on the other hand, she might be laden with cannon balls which would barely cover one of her decks to the depth of one foot, and yet bring her down below her water line. To put the matter on a more satisfactory footing, and give to every one the means of knowing the real capabilities of vessels, was the object of this Bill. But even if the Government were resolved to reject his system of measurement, there was no reason why they should decline to adopt the other part of his Bill—that which related to the establishment of a register of marine horse-power.
On Question, that "now" stand part of the Motion,
Their Lordships divided:—Content 21; Not Content 28: Majority 7.
Resolved in the negative. Then the Question as amended was agreed to; and Bill to be read 2a on this day six months.
House adjourned till To-morrow.