Lords Sitting of 5 June 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Edinburgh Lands. Reported.—Ecclesiastical Property (Ireland). 3a Newspaper Stamp Duties.

THE "MEDWAY" TRANSPORT— QUESTION.
LORD PANMURE, in reference to the question which the noble Earl opposite

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(the Earl of Ellenborongh) had put yesterday on the subject of the fittings of the Medway, wished to bring before the House, in addition to what he had stated yesterday, the report of an officer (Captain Connell) who had been sent from Woolwich to Southampton to examine the condition of the vessel; that report, dated the 5th of May, was as follows—
"In compliance with your instructions, I yesterday visited the Royal Mail steamship Medway, at Southampton. I have to report that she has stable room for 220 horses; the boxes are well and securely built, and the ventilation is admirable; 115 of the horses are boxed on the lower deck, which is nearly seven feet high, and thoroughly ventilated; the rest are on the spar deck. The main deck is entirely set apart for the use of the men, and can berth 220. The only place for stowage of harness, guns, carriages, &c., is the forehold, and there is not more room than necessary to hold the harness vats, six guns and carriages, and six waggons. If thirty of the horseboxes in the fore part of the vessel were taken away there would be ample room for all the carriages of the battery. I beg most humbly to suggest that an officer with a strong party of men should proceed down to Southampton with the harness and guns the day before the horses are embarked, which will enable them to store everything before shipping the horses."
It would appear, as he had stated yesterday, that the accident to the Medway was only the consequence of a severe storm she encountered in the Bay of Biscay, and not in any way connected with the boxing of the horses.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he thought, from the sketch he had seen, that there was some defect in the fittings, and suggested that, in all cases, means should be taken to secure the boxes from sliding from one side of the deck to the other. He believed no blame attached to the authorities, but he would suggest that the noble Lord should himself take the trouble to go down to the ports of embarkation to see that the transport arrangements were properly made, for it frequently happened that the eye of a civilian discovered defects which did not occur by scientific gentlemen who had charge of the preparations.
LORD PANMUREsaid, that no doubt the suggestion of the noble Earl might be useful, but he feared, from the pressure of other important business, he should not be able to act upon it.

THE TURKISH CONTINGENT.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, their Lordships would probably recollect that on the 3rd of February a Convention
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was agreed to between Her Majesty and the Sultan for the employment of a number of Turkish troops in the British service, and he thought he was not considered premature in asking the noble Lord opposite, on the 5th of June, what progress had been made in the formation of this body of troops. If they were to believe what they read in the newspapers—and certainly what he had read there was confirmed by what he had read in a letter from one of the officers engaged in that force—no progress whatever had been made, a fortnight ago, in placing any number of Turkish troops under the command of the officers who had been sent out. Those officers were extremely dissatisfied at the position in which they stood, and were remaining at Constantinople without anything to do, although they were receiving no very great consolation from the pay of a rank superior to that which they had previously held. There could be no fault, so far as he could see, on the part of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Panmure), who had performed his duty in sending out officers; but the fault, if fault there was, was either with the diplomatic authorities, who have not urged the Turkish Government, as they ought to have done, to place troops at the disposal of the officers who had been sent out, or it might have rested with our enlightened ally the Sultan, who might not have seen the present and future advantage which might result to Turkey from the establishment of such a corps. He bad always taken the greatest interest in this subject, believing it to be one of the utmost possible importance, not only to the present but to the future advantage of Turkey; and it would be satisfactory to him if the noble Lord would give their Lordships an assurance that matters were in train for the formation of this force, and that, although no great progress had been reported, some hope existed that, at no distant period, the officers who had been sent out would find men to command.
LORD PANMUREsaid, he could assure the noble Earl that he very much regretted the delay which had taken place in the formation of the Turkish contingent, a corps which he agreed with the noble Earl would confer immense benefits upon Turkey. It is true, as stated by the noble Earl, that the convention was entered into on the 3rd of February—the ratifications were exchanged on the 12th of March—and by the 11th of April Her Majesty's

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Government had fulfilled their part of the engagement, for on that day General Vivian, the officer selected to command the contingent, arrived at Constantinople with, though not a complete, at all events a sufficient staff of officers to undertake the command of a considerable body of men. He found, on his arrival, that no men were forthcoming for him to command; but the reason of that was not to be discovered either in the disposition of the Turkish Government to find troops or in the neglect of the diplomatic authorities to make proper representations to the Sultan on the subject. It arose very much from the fact that many of the Turkish troops concentrated at Constantinople, and from whom it was anticipated that the contingent would be drawn, had been suddenly called by Omar Pacha to the seat of war, and that there was not a sufficient number left to place under the direction of the British officers. The Turkish Government at once offered to detach from the army under Omar Pacha a body of troops to form the contingent at Constantinople; but Her Majesty's Government very properly replied that it would not be advisable to weaken the force immediately at the seat of war by withdrawing from Omar Pacha any of his seasoned troops. It was then proposed, and the proposal was now in course of being carried out, that troops to form the contingent should be withdrawn from the army on the Danube. Omar Pacha himself suggested that arrangement, and promised to give it his support; and as soon as they could command transports either to bring the troops from Varna to Constantinople, or, if it were thought more advisable, to remove General Vivian and his staff to Varna, there to form a portion—for it would be only a portion—of the contingent, there would be no longer any delay in proceeding with the formation of at least half the number of men which the Sultan had agreed to supply. With regard to the other moiety, it had not been determined what proportion of them should consist of seasoned troops, and what proportion—he hoped a small one—of men raised for the first time; but he could assure their Lordships that Her Majesty's Government were as anxious as they possibly could be to complete the force, which they believed would prove a great future advantage to the Sultan, and likewise of immense present benefit to the allies themselves, not only at the seat of war, but at various other points where it
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might be necessary to place disciplined troops, either to form a barrier against the enemy or to garrison important fortresses.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that if it were determined to send half of the officers to Varna, there to form and discipline a moiety of the contingent, he would venture humbly to suggest that the other half should be sent to Erzeroum, there to form and discipline the remainder of the force. It was of the utmost importance that both officers and men should be placed where they were most wanted. He believed, from communications he had had with many officers, that they would, in raising a force to be formed under British discipline, much rather begin with raw recruits than to take Turkish troops, who would have to unlearn a great deal before they could learn anything from their new commanders.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he could not allow the conversation to drop without expressing the hope that the Sultan might derive great benefit from the instruction of his troops by English officers, and he was therefore ready to support any plan for assisting the Sultan in improving the discipline of his forces and in affording them instruction in the art of war; but if the Turkish contingent were to be considered as a mere increase of the mercenary force in the pay of England, and if it were intended that England should go on raising mercenary forces from time to time for the purposes either of attack or defence, he could only say that anything more degrading to the character of the country, or tending more to the ultimate ruin of its power and influence, could not possibly be conceived. If England, with the vast and rapidly increasing population which it now possessed, was unable to fight its own battles with its own men, he could not look forward to the future with anything but a feeling of apprehension and dismay; and he would strongly urge upon Her Majesty's Government the necessity of calling out the resources of the country at the present time, in order that we might not assume, in the eyes of foreign nations, the position of a second-rate Power as compared with our great ally, France. He should like to see an increase of the army vigorously set about by means of large bounties; or, if that were insufficient to secure the requisite force, by means of a resort to those devices which were perfectly constitutional. In the last war, with a much smaller population

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than it now had, England stood in the position of a first-rate military Power, and he saw no reason why she should allow herself to be degraded from that position now. He was one of those who believed that we were only just at the commencement of a great and protracted war, and any measures that might encourage the idea that we were compelled to employ mercenary forces and to subsidise the troops of other countries, would materially affect the position of England in the eyes of her allies and of the world.
LORD PANMUREsaid, he did not intend to prolong the discussion, but he must protest against the observations of the noble Earl with reference to the employment of foreign troops in the present war. He had been engaged in negotiating for the services of such troops, and he could tell their Lordships that he considered it no degradation whatever to England to accept the assistance of gallant men, either of Switzerland or Germany, in a just and honourable cause. He would further add, that in consequence of reflections such as those which their Lordships had just heard, he had found the greatest difficulty in inducing foreigners to enter into our service. He had fortunately succeeded in removing some of those difficulties, and he did trust that no further obstacles would be thrown in his way by such observations as those of the noble Earl, which were calculated to serve no useful purpose, but, on the contrary, had a very injurious effect abroad, by representing the services of foreigners as mercenary, and such as England could not employ with honour.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYdid not think the noble Baron quite understood the bearing of the observations of the noble Earl beside him. There was nothing in the speech of the noble Earl which any foreign country could consider as offensive. What the noble Earl meant to say was, that the amount of military force now raised from the population of England was not such as might be expected from so great a country, and that it was a degradation to us, considering how our population had increased since the last war, that we should be obliged to the use of foreign bayonets. The noble Earl made no reflection whatever upon foreign troops, nor did he say more than every Englishman had a right to say when he thought his country ought to do more than she had done. They all knew that there were no braver men on the face of the earth than the
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Swiss, or none more faithful to those whom they served, and it would be impossible for any person to stand up and declare—he was sure the noble Earl, who had met those foreigners to whom he was supposed to allude offensively as enemies, and who knew their valour, would be the very last to do so—that it would be a degradation to stand shoulder by shoulder with such troops. The same might be said of the Germans and of the troops of other countries with whom we had already fought as allies; and, therefore, he thought the noble Earl had some reason to complain of the noble Baron opposite, because while his observations referred to the exertions made by England herself, as compared with her efforts during the last war, the noble Baron had misrepresented them as meaning something offensive to foreign countries.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, he was not aware that he had said anything that could be considered offensive by any foreign country. All he had said was, that he thought it disgraceful that this country should be forced to subsidise armies or hire mercenaries. He was not aware that Her Majesty's Government had done either. All they had done at present was to league themselves with allies in the field. He should like to know after the observations of the noble Baron, whether or not they had subsidised any troops.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he though it would have been much better if the noble Earl had left the matter as it had been explained by his noble Friend the late Foreign Secretary (the Earl of Malmesbury), whose statement must have given satisfaction to their Lordships, showing, as it did, that he differed entirely from what must be regarded as the impression produced by the observations of the noble Earl who first spoke. He was surprised to find that the noble Earl (the Earl of Hardwicke) objected to what not one single individual had ever objected to before, namely, that in a war in which Turkish interests were primarily and most deeply involved, we should give to the Sultan the undoubted advantage of our greater skill and larger pecuniary means in forming and training a force for the defence of his dominions. The effect of his remarks, however, had been explained away in a most satisfactory manner by the late Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who had spoken of the services of foreign troops in terms which could not fail to produce a good impression abroad as well as at home.

THE VIENNA CONFERENCES—QUESTION.
LORD LYNDHURST: May I ask the noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any intelligence of the close of the Vienna Conferences; and, if so, whether he is prepared to lay on the table the last proposal made to or by Russia?
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: I this morning received information from Her Majesty's Minister at Vienna that a conference was yesterday summoned by Count Buol, and that he then made a proposition to the Russian Plenipotentiaries—I am speaking from a short despatch received by telegraph—requested to know whether they might send that proposal to St. Petersburg. Upon the French and English Ministers being consulted, they said they had no instructions to agree to such a proceeding; and Count Buol then said that having fulfilled the engagement undertaken by Austria—to endeavour to find the elements of accommodation between the contending parties—and having failed to discover such means of accommodation, he considered there was no further use in conferences being held; and the conferences were accordingly closed. With respect to the question of the noble and learned Lord as to whether the proposal which was made at the conference will be laid before Parliament, I do not think there can be any objection to the production of that proposition; but as I am not yet quite certain what the proposition is—having received only a short despatch by telegraph—I must delay answering the question till another occasion.
LORD LYNDHURST: It is at least satisfactory to learn that the conferences have been closed.

CORN AVERAGE RETURNS.
LORD PORTMAN LORD PORTMAN moved, that there be laid before the House, Accounts of the total Quantities of each kind of Corn, returned by the Corn Inspectors as having been sold in the markets of England and Wales in the year 1854; and also the Total Quantities of each kind of Corn and Flour and Meal, reduced to quarters of corn which had been Imported from abroad into England and Wales in the year 1854. These returns were most important. They had been obtained from Ireland in an inefficient state—from Scotland very efficiently; but from England in such a restricted and incomplete form as to be comparatively valueless for the purpose for which they were
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procured. Some step must be taken to get these returns fully, or the system must be given up. It was most desirable to get better information relative to the yearly average of the area of wheat in cultivation, and he hoped measures would be taken to get at what was wanted. The returns would be useful as showing a comparatively small quantity of corn brought into market.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, the subject was one of great importance to the interests of the country. Though difficulties had occurred in procuring the returns from some of the counties by means of the only machinery they had been able to set in motion, yet a great deal of very useful information had been collected, more especially in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and in Cambridgeshire. All the Poor Law inspectors concurred in saying, that it was impossible to obtain more satisfactory returns without the passing of a compulsory law, many occupiers objecting to make returns on the ground that if they did so, some of their neighbours would refuse. As to the noble Lord's suggestion, that returns should be obtained from the seller instead of the purchaser, the same difficulties would occur under that arrangement, in the absence of compulsion. Feeling the importance of obtaining accurate returns, it was with great satisfaction that he had heard a noble Lord, who had been elected to fill the important office of President of the Royal Agricultural Society, giving the sanction of his name to the object, and expressing a wish on the part of the agriculturists of this country that such information should be secured. He was inclined to think that the best course he could pursue under the circumstances was, to ask their Lordships to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into all the circumstances attending the attempt to obtain this information. He thought it important to have brought under the notice of their Lordships the successful manner in which the object had been carried out in Scotland, and the imperfect manner in which it had been carried out in England, and especially in Ireland, and he also considered it desirable to include in the inquiry the present mode of taking the corn averages, with the view of ascertaining whether some better method could not be devised.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, the great point was to ascertain what was likely to be the result of the harvest, so as

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to enable commercial men to engage, without such risk as they had hitherto incurred, in the importation of corn from foreign countries. He did not see why his noble Friend (Lord Stanley of Alderley) should not take upon himself the responsibility of introducing a Bill to carry out the object. Such a measure would probably meet with very little opposition in either House. He perfectly agreed with him as to the desirability of obtaining accurate returns in spite of the inexcusable prejudices which induced some persons to oppose the object, and their suspicions as to the motives of those who wished for them.
LORD PANMUREcould not help saying that the success which had attended the inquiries in Scotland resulted mainly from the fact, that those inquiries were carried on through a body in whom the farmers had confidence; namely, the Highland Society of Scotland, whereas the inquiries in this country were carried on principally by persons who were not particularly connected with agriculture. Not more than a dozen farmers in Scotland refused to make returns when first applied to, and in consequence of representations which were made subsequently that dozen was reduced to one.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, another reason which operated, he thought, rather powerfully in Scotland was, that in that country the farmers all held under leases, and therefore the making returns could not prejudice their interests. The extreme reluctance of many English farmers to make returns was not, in his opinion, considering the terms of their tenure, so unreasonable as some noble Lords seemed to think.
THE EARL OF HARROWBYobserved, that as respected the last harvest the returns were at present so slow as to be of scarcely any practical utility.
LORD BERNERShad long been of opinion, that it was very desirable that accurate returns should be obtained of the gross produce both of corn and meat. He had never apprehended that any evil result would arise from the truth being known; on the contrary, he had always felt that it would be a great advantage to the country if information on the subject were generally diffused. As regarded the taking the averages from the seller instead of the buyer, he thought it very desirable that such an alteration should be carried into effect.
Motion agreed to.

CRIMINAL LAW.
LORD BROUGHAM LORD BROUGHAM moved an Address for Return of the number of Prisoners untried in gaol, 5th June, 1855, distinguishing the counties, and distinguishing the number of those who had been in gaol for twenty-eight days and upwards, and of those in gaol for forty-two days and upwards. The noble and learned Lord said, the matter to which this return related was the greatest grievance that existed in connection with the administration of the criminal law. A return for 1853 showed that in that year there were 28,000 commitments, and that of that number 6,200 were either acquitted on their trial or discharged, because there was no prosecution. The average period during which the not guilty prisoners were confined in eight counties containing a large population was six weeks; and as regarded the 22,000 persons convicted, nearly one half of the persons convicted in two counties were sentenced to periods of imprisonment of less than two months. He trusted his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack would not delay bringing forward the Bill which he had promised with the view of providing a remedy for the state of things of which he complained.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, there was no objection to the returns for which his noble and learned Friend had now moved. As regarded the Bill to which he had referred, one object of which would be to increase the number of sessions from four to eight, and to hold three assizes instead of two, in the year—he hoped to be able to lay it on the table either on Thursday or on Friday; and he did not apprehend any serious opposition to it in either House.
LORD BROUGHAMhoped it would be found possible to hold four assizes in the year.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned to Thursday next.