Lords Sitting of 31 July 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Metropolitan Buildings; Excise Duties; Passengers Act Amendment.
3a Slave Trade (Sherbro).

THE GRANT TO THE ROYAL SOCIETY.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he wished to draw the attention of the noble Lord the President of the Council to a report, which he believed was not unfounded, of the withdrawal of the grant of 1,000 l. per annum which had been for the last four or five years voted by Parliament to the Royal Society for the promotion of science. The most eminent men concurred in saying that the utmost possible good had been achieved by the outlay of this very moderate sum in the advancement of science. He might be told by some that the expenditure
1554
of war had come into competition with that of peace, and that it was, therefore, no longer expedient to continue this outlay; but that was an argument which he regarded with perfect disdain— Parliament had voted—and wisely voted—nearly 80,000 l. for the promotion of the arts and the diffusion of science during the present Session. While upon this subject he would read a letter from a most learned friend of his, now in Paris, relative to the Exhibition. His friend had expected to find the Exhibition a failure, as, indeed, it was at first; but he said he had been most agreeably disappointed, as he found it in all respects superior in its general appearance and in the number and variety of the articles shown to the Exhibition in Hyde Park. The French and other continental nations had, according to this gentleman, made the most extraordinary progress in steam-engines and machinery, and his correspondent added, that notwithstanding the progress our manufacturers had made in some of the departments of art, he was mortified to see what a poor figure we cut in the department of philosophical instruments. All the prizes were given to foreigners, and he understood the English jurors intended to make a representation to the Government on the subject. He (Lord Brougham) thought that statement showed in the strongest way the necessity of continuing those grants for the promotion of science and the diffusion of the arts.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, it was not remarkable that his noble and learned Friend, who possessed such great scientific attainments, and had taken so active a part in the promotion of science in this country, should view with surprise and some indignation the withdrawal of the annual grant from the Royal Society. His noble Friend behind him (the Duke of Argyll) and himself had heard the statement of that circumstance, at a meeting of distinguished gentlemen connected with science, in a speech of that illustrious man Professor Owen. The point of that speech was the neglect of science and scientific persons by the Government, and its climax was the statement of the withdrawal of the yearly grant of 1,000 l. from the Royal Society. His noble Friend and himself were then unacquainted with the details of the matter, but he would mention a circumstance to show that everything which could be done was done on the part of his colleagues to promote the interests of scientific

1555
men. Professor Owen's son, a well educated young man, was desirous of obtaining a clerkship in the Foreign Office, a place, as their Lordships were aware, which was very much coveted, and his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, without any acquaintance with Professor Owen, but owing entirely to the great fame he had acquired from his scientific attainments, presented him at once with the appointment. The noble Duke and himself left the meeting at which they had heard of the withdrawal of the grant in a state of great indignation; his noble Friend fired off a letter to the Prime Minister; and he (Earl Granville) applied to the lesser gods of the Treasury, when he was made acquainted with the state of things which he would now lay before their Lordships. In 1850 the Royal Society, through their president, Lord Rosse, applied to the Government for assistance to enable them to carry out some special and, as it was understood, temporary objects connected with science, and the Government, instead of bringing the subject before Parliament, gave the grant out of the limited fund known as the "Queen's bounty," which was more properly devoted to charitable purposes. Year after year a similar application was made, and in the beginning of May last the President wrote for a renewal of the grant. He would read the answer to that application, which would show that there was no warrant for the feeling which had been created in reference to this subject—
"The Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury having had before them your Lordship's application on behalf of the Royal Society for the annual grant of 1,000 l. placed at the disposal of the Royal Society for scientific purposes, I am directed to state that, although special grants, amounting in the whole to the sum of 4,000 l., have been made from time to time, in the first instance for special and temporary objects, to the Royal Society out of a fund very limited in its amount, which is more properly applicable, and is otherwise applied, to charitable purposes, my Lords are not aware of any understanding for making an annual grant to the Royal Society for scientific purposes out of the public funds, and at the present moment the more urgent and legitimate demands upon the fund from which the above-mentioned donation has been made to the Royal Society do not permit their Lordships to make any grant out of it for scientific purposes. If, however, the Royal Society, looking to the immediate importance of the objects for which a grant of public money is applied for, and to the insufficiency of their own funds to enable them to accomplish them, are of opinion that their claims upon the public funds are such as Parliament would undoubtedly recognise, my Lords will be prepared to take into their consideration any representation
1556
which the Royal Society may make to them with that object."
A month's delay took place before the Royal Society returned an answer to this communication. That answer was only received yesterday, and the Government had not, therefore, yet had time to consider it; but he might state that it would receive the most favourable consideration. He made this statement, because he thought it was necessary to clear the Government; but he hoped he had said nothing which would induce his noble and learned Friend to refrain from pressing the claims of science from time to time upon any Government which might be in power. With regard to the latter part of his noble and learned Friend's speech, the universal opinion in 1851, expressed in public meetings, in periodicals, and in the public press, was, that, notwithstanding all our skill and energy, in the application of the principles of art to our manufactures we were very much behind other European nations. This was to be attributed to the ignorance of our manufacturers, and no doubt, in a greater degree, to the ignorance of the purchasers of articles. Our Government had, then, done nothing to get rid of that ignorance, while the principal continental Governments had for more than fifty years spent large sums in collecting objects of art and science, and in establishing scientific and industrial institutions. He was glad to find that his noble and learned Friend confirmed the statements he had heard, both from Frenchmen and Englishmen, with regard to the very remarkable progress we had made in this respect, as shown by the articles now exhibiting in Paris. He thought that progress must be attributed in some degree to the careful attention which had been paid to the subject by some of the departments of the Government, and by the principal manufacturers. He might state, in conclusion, that there was no rivalry whatever between the separate departments of science and art, and he thought it was the duty of the Government to encourage both.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, nothing could be more satisfactory than his noble Friend's statement. He assured his noble Friend that he would never lose sight of the necessity of pressing upon the Government the encouragement of science and art.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that, early in the proceedings of the meeting to which his noble Friend had referred, he (the Duke of Argyll) had made some observations

1557
with respect to the assistance given by Government to objects connected with science and art, and his observations had elicited from Professor Owen the statement as to the withdrawal of the grant. He mentioned this circumstance in order to do away with the impression that Professor Owen had made a gratuitous complaint against the Government.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had not the slightest intention of making any such complaint against Professor Owen.

METROPOLIS LOCAL MANAGEMENT BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order).
Clauses 1 to 13 agreed to, with Amendments.
Clause 14, relating to the mode of taking the votes at elections,
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYproposed an Amendment, that the votes for vestrymen and auditors should be taken by means of voting papers transmitted to the ratepayers by post, and returned in the same manner.
On Question, their Lordships divided:—Content 19; Not Content 23: Majority 4.
Clause 49,
THE EARL OF POWIS THE EARL OF POWIS moved the insertion of the following proviso:—"Provided always that such chairman shall not be eligible to sit or serve in Parliament." His object was to prevent the office from degenerating into one of a political character.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsupported the proviso. The Secretary of State might select a Member for Marylebone for the office of chairman. Nothing could be more fatal to the operation of the Bill than having a Member of Parliament for the Chairman of the Board.
EARL FORTESCUEconcurred in the objection.
EARL GRANVILLEdeclared that there was no precedent for the exclusion of a Member of Parliament from such an office. The Lord Mayor might sit in Parliament.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, the mayoralty was an annual and elective office; the chairmanship was permanent, and the Secretary of State was to appoint to it.
Earl GRANVILLE and Lord WODEHOUSE opposed the Motion, which was negatived without a division.
Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Thursday next.

OFFICE OF SPEAKER BILL.
EARL GRANVILLE moved, to resolve,
"That as regards the Office of Speaker Bill, which provides for the Performance of certain Duties of the Speaker during his temporary Absence from the House of Commons, inasmuch as the House of Commons considers the Provisions of the said Bill necessary for the better Regulation of its own Proceedings, the Circumstances which render Legislation on the Subject Matter of the said Bill expedient are, in the Opinion of this House, of such Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the same necessary."
Agreed to; and Bill read 2a (according to Order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
House adjourned to Thursday next.