Lords Sitting of 23 July 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Stage Carriage Duties, &c.; Chinese Passenger Ships; Court of Judicature (Prince of Wales Island); Convention with United States; Nuisances Removal and Diseases Prevention Acts Consolidation and Amendment; Dissenters' Relief.
2a Piers and Harbours (Scotland); Crown Suits; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland).
3a Religious Worship; Burials; Dwelling-Houses (Scotland); Crime and Outrage (Ireland) Continuance.
ROYAL ASSENT.—Lady Raglan and Lord Raglan's Annuities; Endowed Schools (Ireland); Gold Wedding Rings; Commons Inclosure (No. 2); Spirits (Ireland) Act Amendment; Friendly Societies; Dublin Carriage Acts Amendment; Christ Church (Todmorden) Marriages Validity; Burial-Grounds (Scotland); Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes.

THE WAR IN ASIA.
THE EARL OF AIRLIEasked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if Her Majesty's Government had received any information with respect to the progress of the war in Asia? Most alarming accounts—whether true or false he could not say—had recently been received from that quarter. It was said that Kars had been invested by a large Russian force, and that another detachment of the enemy had been despatched to Erzeroum. On the fall of Kars during the last war, the Russians immediately advanced upon Erzeroum. The House was aware of the vast importance of this latter town, a subject which had lately been brought before the other House by an hon. Gentleman who was admitted to be a great authority on all matters connected with the East, the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Layard). It was said by those who were best acquainted with the country that whoever held Erzeroum would be masters of that part of Asia; and there was no doubt that if the Russians should obtain and keep possession of it, it would be fatal to the independence and integrity of Turkey. It had generally been supposed that the independence of Turkey was comparatively safe so long as she was not threatened by the Russian fleet. That might be very true as far as regarded the European possessions of the Porte, but that it was equally so with regard to the Ottoman territory in Asia was a conclusion not equally borne out by experience. He hoped the noble Earl at the head of the Foreign Department would be able to contradict the alarming rumours in circulation; and he trusted that the result of the present campaign would show that the Government, in concert with our allies, had taken such steps as would check the further progress of the Russian army in Asia Minor.
THE EARL OF CLARENDONsaid, he had no objection to give the noble Earl all the information he possessed on the subject to which he had drawn the attention of their Lordships. He could assure him that Her Majesty's Government were as fully alive as the noble Earl could be to the importance of repelling the aggressions of Russia on Kars. In the summer of last year Her Majesty's Government sent out to Kars a very distinguished officer, and by his unwearied zeal and perseverance he had succeeded in maintaining the spirit of
1276
the Turkish army, in reforming some of the worst abuses, and placing the army on a more satisfactory footing. They had news from that place to the 23rd of last month, which was that the Russians had made an advance on Kars, and had got within fire of the batteries, and were repulsed with loss. But so far from the Turkish army being in a dispirited and demoralised condition by the sufferings of last winter, they manifested a very excellent spirit. They knew also that the inhabitants displayed the best spirit. They had been supplied with arms at their own demand, and wherever there was an appearance of danger they presented themselves without being called upon. On the 23rd there was a very considerable Russian force between Kars and Erzeroum, which had destroyed some granaries and stores of corn; and after the failure at Kars it appeared that the Russians had sent for heavy guns; but that on their way a violent rain had taken place, the country was entirely broken up, and they were unable to bring the guns up. That was the latest information they had, and it was the opinion not only of the general officer he had referred to, but of the other officers with him, that there need be no fear whatever of Kars being taken by a coup de main. It would be of course the duty of the Turkish Government to take measures to succour Kars. Measures for that purpose would be taken, but of course the noble Earl would see that it would be injudicious for him to state what they were.

RELIGIOUS WORSHIP BILL.
Bill read 3a (according to order) with the Amendments.
THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he must take notice of the doubtful meaning of some of its clauses. His noble Friend (the Earl of Shaftesbury), in drawing them up, had rather stretched a point beyond what the intention of the Bill was understood to be, when he put after the word "dwelling-house," the words "or premises there to belonging." Chapels night be attached to private dwelling houses, and so evade the existing law. There was a provision also to except from the existing prohibitions "any congregation or assembly for religious purposes meeting occasionally in any place not usually appropriated to religious worship." But what was the meaning of the word "occasionally?" The object was to pro-

1277
tect the meetings of societies and bodies of people who did not assemble regularly and systematically in a certain place for public worship. But under this clause, supposing a number of persons, desirous of establishing a system of religious worship in a parish contrary to the will of the incumbent, should hire, week by week, a large ball-room in some inn, or any other place of that description, and meet there every Sunday for public worship according to the forms of the Church of England, would not they be exempted from the existing prohibitions, upon the ground that meeting only upon one day in seven was an occasional meeting?
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYreplied, that the words "dwelling-house or premises belonging to it" were recited from the Act of 1812, in order that the repeal might be as large as the restriction had been. The object of the other provision was to give as much latitude as possible to the London City Mission and other such societies, which held many meetings in the course of the year, and not always in the same spot, not only in Exeter-hall, or the Freemasons'-hall, but went from place to place, taking rooms in various private houses or in halls, which they hired for the occasion, throughout the district. Whether it might be strained so far as to enable persons to take a theatre in which plays were acted during six days of the week, and to hold religious worship there on the seventh day, he did not know, and that question might be left to those who would have to interpret the law; but he did not think that was the way in which the word "occasionally" should be taken.
THE EARL OF DERBYhoped that some noble and learned Lord would favour the House with his opinion upon the point.
THE LORD CHANCELLORthought what the House had meant by this Bill was, that the restrictions of the present law should not apply to meetings for religious purposes in unlicensed places which were not held habitually, but only occasionally. An occasional meeting was one which only took place now and then. Of course difficulties might occur in applying that expression to particular cases, but he did not see that any better one could have been used.
THE EARL OF HARROWBYobserved that the object of the clergy was that they should not be exposed to have rival services set up by members of the Church of England in their own parishes; and he did not
1278
think it was likely that with an occasional system of worship, dodging about from one house to another, any man would be able to deceive himself or to deceive others, into the notion that they were going through a regular course of Church of England worship.
THE BISHOP OF OXFORDwished to say a word upon a matter which affected his own honour. The first time this Bill was discussed he stated that a meeting of Bishops had been summoned by the Archbishop of Canterbury, every single member of which agreed that he could not support the Bill in its original form. In a debate which subsequently took place, at which he was not present, his right rev. Friend near him (the Bishop of London) corrected an extremely malevolent and slanderous statement which had appeared in a newspaper, purporting to be a religious newspaper, to the effect that he had asserted an entire falsehood, as no such meeting as that to which he had alluded ever took place. Notwithstanding the statement of his right rev. Friend, however, this print, pertinacious in its falsehood, returned to the charge, and stated that he had made an entire and wilful misrepresentation. He had referred to the report in the Morning Post of what he said at the time, and he found that his statement was that the Bill was considered yesterday at a meeting held under the presidency of the Archbishop of the province, at which it was unanimously agreed that the Bill could not be supported. That statement was strictly and entirely the truth. The Archbishop had assembled the English Bishops to consider with him a matter affecting the interests of the Church. At that meeting his right rev. Friend (the Bishop of London) introduced the subject of this Bill, and it was agreed, nem. con., that no one present could support it. He wished to set himself right with their Lordships upon this subject, as he should be unworthy of their attention upon any subject whatever if he could have deigned to make such a misrepresentation as that which had been imputed to him.
Amendment moved, and negatived; a further Amendment made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

BURIALS BILL.
Bill read 3a (according to order) with the Amendments; an Amendment moved and negatived,
THE BISHOP OF LONDONexpressed his regret that no measure was enacted to compel parishes to provide a sufficient burial ground where the old burial ground had been closed by order of the Secretary of State. He had had a promise from two successive Governments that this should be done, but in the meantime thousands of the poorer population of this city had been obliged to bury their wives, children, or parents, in a manner which was little better than the burial of dogs. He did not say where the blame should lie, but it was disgraceful to a Christian country that such abominations should be allowed, and the rites of the Church profaned. He did not care for the rich—they could go to the cemeteries; but he did care for the poor.
EARL GRANVILLEbelieved that every evil which the right rev. Prelate had brought under the notice of the Government, as belonging to the deficient arrangements for burial in populous localities, either had been remedied or would be remedied by this Bill, except that one evil of the want of compulsory powers, to oblige the parish to provide a burial ground, which was certainly a matter that required consideration.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

THE EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
LORD POLWARTHsaid, he wished to know whether, if the Government did not mean to introduce before the close of the Session a Bill for continuing to the parochial schoolmasters in Scotland the present amount of their salaries, they would be prepared to support such a measure if brought forward by some independent Member of Parliament.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that if the Government did not think it advisable to introduce such a measure, he thought it could hardly be expected that they would give to it their support if it should be brought forward by some Member of Parliament unconnected with them. He quite agreed with those who said that it would be very unfair to make the schoolmasters in Scotland suffer in consequence of differences of opinion among Members of the Legislature on the subject of education. But the Government did not consider it desirable to bring forward a continuance Bill in that case during the present Session, mainly because they did not believe that it was really wanted. The present salaries would be paid to the parochial schoolmasters in Scotland up to next
1280
Michaelmas, and the next payment would not be due to them until a period which would extend more than two months and a half beyond the usual time of the reassembling of Parliament, so that a sufficient opportunity would be afforded of reconsidering the subject.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHobserved that great inconvenience would be felt from the matter being left in a state of uncertainty, as, in anticipation of the expiration of the existing law, arrangements must previously be made for an altered state of things. With respect to the Bill recently before the House, the noble Lords representing Scotland in their Lordships' House were, with one or two exceptions, decidedly opposed to it; and a similar feeling prevailed generally among the Scotch proprietors. Whatever enactment might hereafter be proposed with respect to education in Scotland, he could confidently say that the most determined opposition would be given to the destruction of the parochial system throughout the country, though he admitted that a totally different kind of school might be necessary in large towns and populous places.
House adjourned till To-morrow.