Lords Sitting of 2 July 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Oath of Abjuration; Religious Worship (No. 2); Spirits (Ireland) Act Amendment; Victoria Government; Waste Lands (Australia) Acts Repeal; New South Wales Government; Indemnity; Christ Church (Todmorden) Marriages Validity; Law of Landlord and Tenant (Ireland); School Grants Security for Application.
2a Union Charges Act Continuance.
ROYAL ASSENT.—Administration of Oaths Abroad; Infants Marriage; National Gallery, &c. (Dublin.)

DEATH OF LORD RAGLAN—HER MAJESTY'S MESSAGE.
LORD PANMURE: My Lords, I deeply lament to say that since your Lordships adjourned on Friday, I have received intelligence from the seat of war of the death of Lord Raglan, Commander in Chief of Her Majesty's forces in the East. I will not on the present occasion enter further into this most melancholy subject, but will simply present to the House a Message from Her Majesty, which I shall intrust to my noble and learned Friend on the woolsack.
THE LORD CHANCELLORthen read the Message, as follows—
"VICTORIA R.
"HER MAJESTY taking into Consideration the great and brilliant Services performed by the late FitzRoy James Henry Lord Raglan, Field Marshal in Her Majesty's Army and Commander in Chief of Her Majesty's Forces at the Seat of War in the East, in the course of the Hostilities which hare taken place in the Crimea, and
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being desirous, in Recognition of these and his other distinguished Merits, to confer some signal Mark of Her favour upon his Widow Emily Harriet Lady Raglan, upon his Son and Successor to the Title, Richard Henry Lord Raglan, and the next surviving Heir Male of the Body of the said Richard Henry Lord Raglan, recommends the House of Lords to concur in such Measures as may be necessary for the Accomplishment of this Purpose.
"V. R.
Ordered—That the said Message be taken into Consideration To-morrow.

THE TICKET-OF-LEAVE SYSTEM.
LORD ST. LEONARDS LORD ST. LEONARDS rose to call the attention of their Lordships to the last Return of the convicts to whom tickets of leave have been granted. The noble and learned Lord said, that there could be no doubt that the present system under which licences were granted to convicts, after undergoing periods of imprisonment, had failed—a result which was in a great measure attributable to the fact, that the Government, after setting these criminals at liberty, took no means of keeping up a knowledge of the conduct of criminals so discharged in their future career, and did not know whether they returned to habits of honest industry or relapsed into crime. There had been originally a very proper feeling that these persons ought not, after their liberation, to be followed and persecuted by the police; but, on the other hand, the Government should have retained such a degree of control over them as would at least have enabled it to form an opinion as to whether the system had answered or not. On every occasion when Returns on this subject had been moved for, the Government had, however, confessed that it did not possess the means of furnishing to their Lordships an account of those ticket-of-leave convicts who had been again brought to trial or been convicted of crime. Surely, the materials for returns much more perfect than those which had been produced might have been obtained without subjecting these persons to an amount of surveillance which would prevent their earning an honest livelihood when so disposed. Could anything be more easy, for instance, than to keep a complete register of all those convicts released upon ticket of leave who were subse-

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quently convicted of crime? Without this they never could have a satisfactory test as to the working of the system. The probationary system to which these convicts were exposed, however beneficial, ought to be followed up by other measures, as it was impossible to suppose that persons who were thus let loose upon society would in all cases be truly reformed; but, unless a salutary watch were kept over them, it would be impossible to tell those who relapsed into crime from those who did not. He should also like to know the principle upon which these tickets of leave were granted:—as far as could be ascertained from the last Return they appeared to be granted indiscriminately. He feared much harm might result from the liberation of criminals in the months of December and January, when the length of the nights, the shortness of the days, and the scarcity of labour, rendered it improbable that they would obtain employment. He had previously complained of the number of convicts who had been released in the months of December and January last—namely, in the first month 216, and in the second 135, making 351 in all, who were turned out upon the world in the depth of winter, when it was extremely difficult for even many a poor man of unimpeached character to obtain employment. Of those men so liberated he understood forty were housebreakers and burglars; and how was it likely they were to obtain an honest livelihood? So that at a time when it was difficult even for an honest man to obtain employment, those people, of whom society was at all times particularly afraid, were discharged because their term of probation was at an end. Transportation, no doubt, could never be restored as a regular system; but it was deserving of consideration whether it might not be adopted with advantage, to a slight extent, for convicts of a more desperate and incorrigible character; while, on the other hand, for those who were fit to be liberated on ticket of leave there should be certain public works on which they could have employment if private employers would not take them into their service. The experiment had failed hitherto, and the system would produce no end of mischief, unless it were carried out more efficaciously. Up to the 30th of March, the date of the last Return, that was in two years and five months, 2,700 persons had been liberated on tickets of leave, and there were then 5,382 under sentence of transportation. This
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was a most alarming number. Under the present system, a large portion of these would, if liberated, relapse into crime, and he therefore earnestly called upon the Government to adopt such measures as should render the system more efficacious.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that, considering the great difficulties which of necessity attended the discontinuance of the transportation system, he was not surprised that the noble and learned Lord had been able to make out a case in many respects apparently very alarming. He was disposed to think, however, that the noble and learned Lord had exaggerated the real state of the case, for on the whole he believed that the ticket-of-leave system had succeeded better than could have been expected. Of course, the attention of the public was always directed to every case where a ticket-of leave man was brought before a police court charged with a new offence; but they overlooked the fact that a large number of such persons were now gaining an honest livelihood. He had it on the authority of Colonel Jebb, that at least 80 or 90 per cent of the men who had thus been returned to society were at the present moment getting their living by their own honest exertions. It would, no doubt, be very desirable that the ticket-of-leave men should not be lost sight of; but the establishment of a system of superintendence by the police, as had been suggested by the noble and learned Lord, would be attended with great difficulty. At present, by dividing the sum of money which was given to the ticket-of-leave men into two parts, the second of which was paid after some interval, and only on the receipt of a recommendation from the clergyman of the parish or from a magistrate, testifying to the good behaviour of each man, some information was obtained with regard to persons so discharged; the chaplains of the gaols had also taken much pains in making inquiries on the same subject, and it was stated in the last report, that out of 254 men discharged from one prison, satisfactory replies had been received with regard to 189, unsatisfactory replies with regard to 17, and no replies at all in the cases of about 50. He could assure the noble and learned Lord that the suggestions which he had offered to-night would not be lost sight of by the Home Secretary, and that every effort would be used by the Government to administer the system with the greatest possible advantage.
LORD MELVILLEcalled the attention of the Secretary for War to the fact of a ticket-of-leave man having enlisted into one of the regiments of the line, and suggested that some means should be taken to prevent the recurrence of such a case.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the returns, showing that 1,500 or 1,600 of these convicts had been released, might lead to the impression that, in consequence of the alteration of the law, that number had been turned loose on society; but the fact was that, of that number, 1,267 were persons who had been sentenced only to seven years' transportation, and according to the old system would have been let loose on society with this difference from the present system—that they would not have had a ticket of leave, but would have been absolutely discharged, and turned loose on society. Therefore, with regard to those persons there was no practical alteration of the law, except that through the ticket of leave, in case of their relapsing into crime, a power of recapture was afforded. Of the remainder of the 1,500 (to speak in round numbers) 267 persons were sentenced to be transported for ten years only, a very large portion of whom were really not transported under the old system; and, in calculating the number turned loose on society under the new system, a large deduction must be made on that account from the numbers in the returns. Only twenty out of the 1,500 were persons transported for terms of years exceeding ten years. A large portion of them would, probably, have been actually transported under the old system, and might therefore be considered an addition to the number turned loose on society under the new system. If, then, the returns were analysed, it would appear that, instead of 1,500, only about 100 additional convicts had been turned loose on society in consequence of the alteration of the law.
THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE,referring to what had fallen from a noble Lord (Lord Melville), observed that the military service was a profession of honour. Of late years every possible means had been adopted to raise the character of the service, and, therefore, he should think it very unfortunate if these ticket-of-leave men should in any manner be allowed to enter the army. The general intercourse between the men in the army was such, that if a black sheep got among them, his bad influence spread throughout the regiment. Therefore, though, admitting that this was
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a most important and difficult question to deal with, he hoped that some means would be taken to prevent ticket-of-leave men from getting into the service.

ACCIDENTS ON RAILWAYS BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order).
Clause 1 agreed to, with verbal amendments.
On. Clause 2, which gives power to the Board of Trade to require the substitution of a bridge for a level crossing,
THE EARL OF EGLINTONobjected to powers being given to the Board of Trade to order a railway company to construct a bridge at any place where they might think fit.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, the power given to the Board of Trade in this clause was similar to that which was conferred upon them in every railway bill, and it was dictated solely from a regard to the public safety.
Some verbal alterations having been made in the clause,
On the question that the clause as amended stand part of the Bill,
Content 26; Not Content 22: Majority 4.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
House adjourned till To-morrow.