§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHMy Lords, I have given notice to the noble Lord the Minister of War of my intention to put a question relative to the appointment of Major General Vivian, of the Madras army, to the command of the Turkish levies; and also a question relative to the appointment of some officers of reputation and experience to proceed to the Crimea, to inspect the state of affairs there, and to report thereon to the Government. I wish to know whether there will be any objection on the part of the noble Lord to lay a statement of the war services of Major General Vivian before the House. When an officer receives an annual gratuity of 100l. a statement of his war services is invariably printed in the Army Estimates; and if it is important that it should be known what are the war services of an officer in such case, how much more important is it that they should be known when an officer is appointed to form and command 20,000 men. I 1950 ask for this information because I have not been able to obtain it elsewhere. Let it not be supposed that I impugn the military character of Major General Vivian; I cannot do so, because of that military character I know nothing. He may be a very respectable officer—and he was respected in the Presidency of Madras, or he would not have been appointed adjutant general of the Madras army. He may have conducted himself in this appointment in a business-like way, and he may be a very fit officer to appoint as adjutant general to the Turkish levy; but the question is, his fitness for the peculiar employment that has been given to him. I think your Lordships will agree that a force of this irregular character, composed of Asiatics, ought to be commanded by officers who have had experience of Orientals;—that appears to be the intention of Her Majesty's Government. I think your Lordships will admit that three qualifications are required in the officer appointed to such a command; he should have a high reputation in India, because, in consequence of that reputation, more officers will be willing to serve with him, and therefore his sphere of selection or recommendation would be increased; and he should, besides, have been placed in a position in which he has had an opportunity of becoming personally acquainted with officers the most fitted for the appointments he may have to confer or recommend officers for; he should also have had personal experience in the management of irregular corps, which differ entirely from those composing the regular army. Now, this officer, appointed to the Turkish levy, has not had the good fortune to receive the honour of being made a Companion of the Bath, and, considering the great liberality with which this order has been conferred on the Indian army, I think that circumstance is at once a clear proof that he has not had an opportunity of distinguishing himself in important actions. In point of fact, being in the Madras army, unless he had the good fortune of being selected for service with an irregular corps in the Affghan war, he could not have had an opportunity of witnessing any great operation of war since the Burmese war, which terminated in 1826, because in the war in Affghanistan, on the Sutlej, in Scinde, and on the Indus, the Madras army was not employed. Being an officer in the Madras army, he has not been placed in a position in which he could by any possibility know the men most fitted 1951 to be appointed to the Turkish force; such men are to be found in our irregular corps, and of the officers belonging to the irregular corps in India two-thirds belong to the Bengal army; out of 298 officers 210 are in the Bengal army, and the others are equally divided between the Madras and Bombay armies. Again, as this officer has been attached to the Presidency of Madras, and not employed in any capacity in an irregular corps, he has not had that experience in the management of an irregular force which is absolutely necessary to enable him to form and discipline the irregular corps forming the Turkish levy. There is a great difference between a regular and irregular corps. In the former there are many officers and a large establishment of non-commissioned officers, under whom discipline is carried out; but there are only two or three officers to the latter; and it is, therefore, absolutely necessary that the officer of an irregular corps should associate with the men, know them all, and exercise a moral ascendancy over them to an extent not required in the regular army. It therefore appears to me that this officer has the misfortune of being deficient in all three of the requisites which ought to be possessed by the individual appointed to the command of levies of this description. He cannot have a high military reputation, not having enjoyed the opportunity of acquiring one; he cannot have become acquainted with the persons most fitted to officer such troops; and he cannot have had that experience of an irregular corps which is absolutely necessary to qualify a man for this appointment. My Lords, the number of officers whom Major General Vivian will have to recommend, or upon whose appointment he will have to express an opinion, is very considerable. I have looked into this matter, and I think it is impossible that fewer than 125 officers, according to the lowest calculation, will be required for the disciplining of these 20,000 men. Now, where are these 125 officers to be found?—in this country? I have seen notices in the newspapers desiring them to make their applications, and I wish to know in what manner and by what person these appointments are to be made. If recourse is only to be had to officers on furlough, the number obtainable will be exceedingly small; and, besides, many of those officers are here on account of their health, and are, therefore, not the fittest to be selected for employment. I consider that the officer appointed 1952 to the command should have to recommend such officers as are fit among those who are at home, but that the Government should reserve to itself a discretionary power of acceding to or rejecting his recommendations. But, above all, a letter should be written to the Governor General of India, explaining to him the circumstances of the case, and desiring him to make known the necessities of the Government, and to recommend and send at once those officers who, in his opinion, are the fittest to hold these commands. Should this step have been taken, I think the best course that could have been pursued will have been adopted. But what I have been informed from, I believe, credible sources is, that, with the exception of the young officers who will do anything to enjoy the excitement of service, few will be disposed to serve in the Turkish force, unless their brevet rank, now extending only to India, should be extended to Europe. My Lords, that is an important question. I have at all times entertained the opinion that it was altogether contrary to public policy to confine the services of Indian officers to India alone. I have always considered that it was deserving of consideration whether the services of those officers should not be made available in this country and in every part of the world. The boon would be to them most grateful. It costs the State nothing. If they are not employed at all, it gives them only a right to that social position which the courtesy of society always now acknowledges, but which they desire to have established on a firmer and more regular footing; while, on the other hand, if their services should be required, the State can at once call for them, and they can be employed with great advantage to the public service. There can be no doubt that service in India is of a larger character, and tends more to open the minds of officers, than the ordinary service of the British army. I do not say that brigadiers to command British regiments ought to be taken from the Indian army, although brigadiers in the Indian army often command English regiments in India with credit and success; but in your staff, commissariat, and transport you can employ the services of Indian officers with whom the officers of the British army in Europe cannot compete. Those Indian officers have a more extensive and more valuable experience, and I have no doubt that in those particular branches of the military service in which it is asserted that great 1953 deficiencies have been observed, those deficiencies may to a very great extent be supplied by applying to the public service in Europe the ability and experience of officers who have served in the corresponding departments in India. My Lords, I have made these observations with reference to the appointment of Major General Vivian and that of other officers, because I feel deeply impressed with the conviction that the very first thing—the very life of the execution of all public affairs, consists in the judicious choice of agents, and that the greatest judgment is shown, and the greatest errors are committed, in the selection of the instruments by whom measures are to be carried out. We have at the very commencement of this great war lost the only army we have, and we have not in our military institutions the means of replacing it. We have lost it notwithstanding the most extraordinary efforts of courage and devotion on the part of our officers and men. There has, indeed, been glory, but there has been utter loss. The military reputation of the country has been impaired, not by any failure of the officers and soldiers, but in consequence of the want of men equal to the command of the army and the conduct of its various departments. It is my conviction that unless you can find the men by whom these disasters can be repaired, it will be impossible for you to re-establish our military reputation.
§ LORD PANMUREMy Lords, I cannot deny the right of the noble Earl to take the course he has just thought proper to follow; but I do deny the justice of that course as regards Major General Vivian, and its prudence as respects our whole army in the East. With reference to Major General Vivian, I can scarcely say that that officer has been yet appointed to command the Turkish contingent. I am in communication, however, with him, and, so far as my responsibility is concerned, I mean to select him for the command of those troops. I will do so, my Lords, from no personal acquaintance with this gallant officer, but because, after consulting those on whom I think I can rely in this matter, I have arrived at the conclusion that I am fully justified in intrusting to Major General Vivian the high and important command of the Turkish contingent which is to be raised under the convention just executed between Her Majesty and the Sultan. I think, my Lords, we require other qualifications on the part of an officer besides those of being a dashing officer and of having been 1954 engaged in glorious achievements with irregular cavalry or regiments of the line in India to fit him to organise such a Turkish force as we contemplate. It requires a man who is not only respected and looked up to in the service to which he belongs, but who also has filled such a position as Major General Vivian has long held with reputation in the Madras army, to warrant the expectation that he can organise a large body of troops, and, having organised them, to subdivide them as may be requisite into the different arms of the service. My Lords, Major General Vivian has filled the responsible post of adjutant general, as the noble Earl states, in the Madras army. In early life, while connected with the Indian army, no man in his position in the subaltern or inferior ranks of the army ever displayed more courage or a more gallant bearing on the plains of India, than did Major General Vivian; and in his capacity of adjutant general of the Madras army he so conducted himself in the disciplining of that army and its conduct that on his retirement he received from the General in command in that Presidency the very highest testimonials which I ever knew any man to obtain from another. He received from the civil authorities of that Presidency testimonials equally strong; and he received from the authorities at home likewise testimonials of which, as an officer, he may well be proud. My Lords, if I wanted anything to confirm me in the opinion I have formed of the character of Major General Vivian, and of his fitness for this service, it is the simple fact which I am about to mention. Since it has gone abroad that it was in contemplation to appoint Major General Vivian to the command of the Turkish contingent, applications upon applications have flowed in from officers connected with the Indian service, each of whom is more anxious than the other to be employed under this gallant officer. My Lords, the selection of an officer for so high a command as this, I am aware, is attended with no little responsibility. I feel that responsibility in this case; nevertheless, I am not disposed to shrink from it. But I put it to the noble Earl whether, when an officer has not been actually appointed, it is either fair towards him or just towards the service he is to be called on to administer, to cast, from the moment his name is mentioned to the public—I will not say a slur upon him—but doubts as to his fitness for the discharge of the duties about to be imposed upon him- 1955 The noble Earl has said that he doubts whether any but young officers will volunteer for service under General Vivian. To that assertion I am not able to make an answer, but this I can state, that it will be my duty to select the best officers I can find, of whatever grade they may be, and to give reward and employment to merit wherever that merit may present itself, allowing no personal considerations to interfere with the appointment of the best, most experienced, and most gallant officers whom the Indian army affords. No doubt the greater number of those officers at present at home on furlough will be the first to present themselves, but of course if a satisfactory selection cannot be made from them, the course referred to by the noble Earl will be adopted. Much valuable time, however, would be lost by resorting to this course at once, and therefore from among those who present themselves from the East India Company's service—than whom none better could be desired—from officers on half-pay of Her Majesty's service—nay, even from those who may have retired from the service whose abilities may recommend them for re-employment—I shall endeavour to make a selection of officers for this service. In every way it will be my desire to appoint officers to this contingent who will not only make it effective for the immediate service for which it is required, but who also will do their best to disseminate, through that portion of the Turkish army at least, the spirit, the order, and the gallantry of British troops—thereby conferring a temporary advantage on this country as well as on Turkey, and on Turkey herself a permanent good, by the new spirit and life which will be infused into her army. With reference to the other question on which the noble Earl slightly touched—whether it was the intention of the Government to appoint an officer to go to the Crimea to see and report on the state of affairs there—I have to answer that no such officer has been appointed, nor is it the present intention of Her Majesty's Government to appoint such an officer, but to wait and see the result of the steps already taken with reference to the staff in the Crimea. I was glad to hear that the noble Earl, in questioning this appointment of General Vivian, confined himself to the military fitness of that officer for such an appointment, bearing testimony at the same time, as I am sure every one must who knows him, to the worth of his personal character.
§ LORD VIVIANMy Lords, I hope I may be permitted to say a few words in vindication of a gallant officer whom I have the honour to call my relative. I must say, my Lords, that I think it is rather hard that the noble Earl should—I will not say attack, but criticise the merits of a general officer, appointed to a particular service by the Executive, who are alone responsible for that appointment, in such a way as materially to damage the prestige of that officer, and to render him, perhaps, less useful for the service on which he is to be employed. As the noble Earl thinks he has a right to question General Vivian's capacity, because he has not received that reward for his services which it is for the Crown alone to bestow, I take leave to read to your Lordships the opinion of General Vivian's commanding officer on this point, in order that your Lordships and the public may see whether the selection of my gallant relative is a judicious one or not. The following is an extract from a letter to the Government authorities from the Commander in Chief of the Madras army when General Vivian resigned his office of Adjutant General:—
Bangalore, August 29, 1853.But besides the requisite ability for the discharge of the duties of his department, Colonel Vivian possesses such eminent qualifications for active command that the Commander in Chief would feel himself wanting in his duty to the Government, to the Hon. the Court of Directors, as well as to the distinguished officer in question, did not his Excellency bring the subject thus prominently to notice, in the hope that, should Colonel Vivian return to India, early opportunity will be taken to select him for employment in such manner as may be most beneficial to the public service. There is not, in the Commander in Chief's opinion, in any army a more gallant soldier than Colonel Vivian. The record of his services contained in the accompanying general order of the Commander in Chief shows that he distinguished hinself in the field on every occasion on which he has had an opportunity of doing so. 'Many officers who have seen less service have (the Commander in Chief believes) been honoured with the approbation of their Sovereign; and, should the right hon. the Governor in Council participate in his Excellency's sentiments in regard to the Colonel's merits, Sir R. Armstrong doubts not that the home authorities will recommend to Her Majesty the recognition of Colonel Vivian's services.'General Vivian has also had the honour of being mentioned three times in public despatches. Whenever he has had the opportunity he has distinguished himself by gallant conduct in the field; and I do believe I am justified in saying that no more distinguished officer could have been 1957 found for this command. It is hardly necessary for me to say that I knew nothing whatever of the appointment of my gallant relative until it had been made known to the public in the public journals. The noble Earl says he does not think any officer of distinction would consent to serve under General Vivian; but I can only say to that, that two general officers, one of them a C.B., have offered themselves to serve under him, and many distinguished field officers are crowding in to offer their services. I must repeat, I think it most unjustifiable and most cruel to attack the prestige of an officer about to undertake a most arduous and responsible duty, and I do not think we are justified in taking such a course in this House. The Executive is responsible for the appointment of officers, and it is sufficient for us to interfere whenever an officer goes wrong and proves himself incompetent for his duty.
§ THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHThe noble Lord has mistaken me on one point. I did not say that no officer of distinction would consent to serve under General Vivian. What I said was, that the more distinguished the officer appointed to command this contingent the more probable it was that officers of distinction would press forward to take service under him. With regard to the rest, I made no doubt but that General Vivian was a most respectable officer; that he had the respect of those who were acquainted with him was evident from the fact that he had held the office of Adjutant General of the Madras army, and I thought he would have done extremely well in a similar position in this contingent. What I questioned was his fitness for the peculiar appointment which has been conferred upon him.
§ LORD VIVIANI must venture to tell the noble Earl that higher military authorities than he have pronounced General Vivian to be an officer peculiarly fitted for command in the field. I am perfectly aware the noble Earl thinks himself able to command an army in the field, but I wish to point out to him that General Vivian's reputation has been stamped with the approval of those who have actually commanded armies in the field.