Lords Sitting of 16 February 1855

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Army Service Act Amendment.
2a Purchasers Protection against Judgments.
3a Fisheries (North America).

ARMY REFORM—ARMY SERVICE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHrose to call the attention of the noble Lord the
1398
Secretary of State for the War Department to what took place in their Lordships' House two or three weeks ago—when the noble Lord himself was not present—when a pledge was given on the part of the Government that a clasp should be given to the troops who fought at Balaklava, and also that the Secretary at War should communicate with the First Lord of the Admiralty, with the view of ascertaining what had been done, or was intended to be done, by them for granting medals especially to the seamen who were engaged in the batteries of Sebastopol. As he could not say that he saw much difference between the present and the late Government in other respects, he trusted he should not be driven to the conclusion that there was this difference between them, that in a matter so intimately connected with the feelings and interests of the army the present Government would neglect to do what the late Government had promised. A promise was also given on the same occasion which would, perhaps, take rather more time and consideration to perform; and all that was necessary for him then to do, was to call to the noble Lord's recollection the fact that such a promise had been made. The promise to which he alluded was, that an Order of Merit should be instituted upon the model or principle of that of Maria Theresa and of the St. George of Russia, to include the common soldier as well as the officers of the army who had distinguished themselves in the field. He was quite aware that a good deal of consideration must be given in framing the rules and regulations for the government of such an order; but he trusted that no delay would take place in establishing the order, because, as a question of time, the matter pressed, inasmuch as our troops were at this moment engaged fighting side by side with the French troops; and whilst the French troops had the very next day after the actions in which they had borne a part received from their commander General Canrobert, the military decorations which rewarded them for their valour, our troops would be left entirely without any reward until the new order should be established. Just before the noble Duke the predecessor of the noble Lord quitted the War Office, an alteration was made that appeared to be one of very great value and importance; and he (the Earl of Ellenborough) mentioned the matter now, because he thought the noble Duke ought to

1399
have credit for the advantage which would be derived by the army from that alteration. The noble Duke had separated the provision of animals of the army from the Commissariat, and placed it under a new department, to be called the "Land Transport of the Army Service." Some little time ago, on the Motion of one of their Lordships, a paper written by Sir Charles Trevelyan had been laid on the table, explaining the details of the Commissariat as then transferred to the Secretary for War. Perhaps the noble Lord would not object to lay upon the table the warrant or memorandum by virtue of which this new department had been constituted. He would not then move for it, because he was not aware of the proper designation to give to it. Their Lordships and the public had often observed that promotions had been granted for "distinguished services." He would venture to suggest to the noble Baron the War Secretary, that in future in all cases where promotions or honours were granted specifically for distinguished services, the nature of those services should be specified. He urged this the more strongly because some very painful doubts had arisen as to the correctness of the judgment with which some of those promotions, nominally for distinguished services, had been given. Indeed, in more than one instance, questions had been raised whether an officer who had received promotion "for distinguished services" had actually been under fire in the action for which promotion was given. Of course it was impossible for him to say how far this representation was or was not correct. He knew very well, that, let the honesty of a Minister be what it might, or let his exertions be what they might, to discover merit and reward it, his award would not in all cases be ratified by the public opinion of an army; at the same time, no doubt every exertion should be made in order that the promotions and honours granted by the Government should be entirely in conformity with the feeling of the army itself; and with a view to carrying these promotions and honours somewhat further, and enabling the Government to award them with greater satisfaction to the troops, he would suggest that the Government should do that which was done by all foreign Governments in a state of war, and which had recently been done, not only by the Emperor of Russia, but by the Emperor of the French—namely, that the
1400
noble Lord at the head of the War Department should depute an officer to inspect the army, to see, return and report; and this not only once, but from time to time, so that they might ascertain what was the real state of things in the country in which the army was engaged. If this plan was adopted, it appeared to him that it would be productive not merely of general but of particular advantage in the matter of promotions. Their Lordships could not be ignorant that a very unpleasant feeling had been created with respect to the promotions being granted almost indiscriminately to the staff, rather than to officers of the regiments of the line. He believed there was no doubt that, generally speaking, the officers of the staff were less exposed to personal danger, certainly much less exposed to personal privation and discomfort, than the officers of the line. On the other hand, their services might, perhaps, be of a superior and somewhat more intellectual description; but there were services performed by the officers of the line which were essential to the very existence of the army; and it was, therefore of the highest importance that Government should possess a knowledge of the manner in which those services were performed. There was another point on which he would trouble their Lordships for a moment. Their Lordships could not have failed to observe, that whilst the army was subject to sickness, the sick among the officers bore a great disproportion to the sick among the privates; and with regard to death it might be said to be the same. When the army was engaged in fighting, no doubt the deaths and wounded among the officers were greatly out of proportion. Whether it was owing to their dress, or their being more forward in the fight, he could not say; but, at all events, the killed and wounded among them were greatly more in proportion than among the privates. But very different indeed had it been under the circumstances which had of late prevailed in the Crimea. There could be no doubt that the sickness and deaths among the troops had infinitely exceeded the proportion which they ought to have borne, according to numerical proportion, to the sickness and deaths among the officers; and although some obvious reasons might be assigned for this difference, no reason with which he was acquainted seemed properly to account for the extraordinary difference that had appeared. Upon sending out such an officer as he had

1401
suggested to inspect and report, this circumstance should be one of the first objects of his inquiry. But there was not only this discrepancy between the officers and men, there was also as extraordinary a discrepancy between regiments placed apparently in circumstances that were precisely the same. That, he thought, was a subject of the gravest importance, and it seemed to him quite impossible that regiments could be reduced to the situation in which one or two were at this moment represented to be—that was practically extinguished, the privates all gone, the non-commissioned officers all gone, but the commissioned officers apparently still remaining—without the greatest want of management or much failure of duty on the part of the officers in command. That, again, was an important subject for inquiry by the officer to whom he had alluded. Further, not only should one regiment be compared with another regiment in similar circumstances, but one company should be compared with another in each regiment; and should it appear that in one company there had not been the same amount of sickness that had prevailed in another which was placed in exactly similar circumstances, then he should say that the captain of that company was a man who had recommended himself in the strongest manner for promotion, and that that promotion he ought to have. On the other hand, if it should appear that, through the neglect of the officers a regiment, like the 63rd, had been totally destroyed, whilst the officers had been saved, though there were no peculiar circumstances which should have saved them and destroyed the regiment—if on inquiry this should turn out to be the case, it was incumbent on the Government to mark, in the strongest manner possible, their disapprobation of the conduct of the officers of that or any other regiment similarly circumstanced. Having offered these suggestions to the noble Baron at the head of the War Department, there was one other point upon which he was sure the noble Baron would not he unwilling that he should say a few words. He perceived that the noble Baron had appointed to the command of a division of the army in the Crimea General Simpson, and he (the Earl of Ellenborough) thought it right to state what he knew of that officer. In the beginning of the year 1843 the late Sir Charles Napier commanded in Scinde. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) had great apprehensions, in
1402
consequence of the accidental illness of Sir Charles—a stroke of the sum—that the army might be suddenly deprived of his services; and he was in great fear lest through the system of seniority prevailing in the army, the command of that army, at a most critical period might fall into hands that were totally unequal to it. It became his duty, therefore, to look through all the various regiments, and all the departments in India, to select the person he thought the fittest to be sent at once to Scinde, as the person upon whom the command might devolve in the event of such a calamity occurring. The officer be selected from all India was General Simpson; and Sir Charles Napier afterwards told him that he thought a better man could not have been chosen; that he was a perfectly safe officer, that he knew he would on all occasions do exactly that which he ought to do, and that he might be entirely depended upon. This much he (the Earl of Ellenborough) thought it right to state in justice to the gallant officer. Undoubtedly twelve years had elapsed since that, and twelve years were a considerable period in a man's life. But presuming that the noble Baron had had a personal interview with the gallant General, and that the result of that interview was satisfactory, he did not think that the noble Baron could have made a better selection, supposing it to be determined that the command of the army should remain in the hands of persons of that age. If a different system were adopted, his appointment would, of course, have been out of the question. As it was, when he first saw who were the officers originally appointed to the various divisions of the British army in the Crimea, it was a matter of surprise and regret to him not to see the name of General Simpson among them.
LORD PANMURE: My Lords, in replying to the observations of the noble Earl who has just sat down, I must take leave in the first instance to point out to your Lordships the great inconvenience of the course which the noble Earl has taken, inasmuch as he has questioned me on several points with regard to which I had no notice given me beforehand, so that I might be able to give more satisfactory answers than I can possibly give off-hand. I only notice the course which my noble Friend has taken for the purpose of saying that on all occasions when information is required by your Lordships with reference to any matter connected with the important

1403
department over which I preside, it will be for the advantage of your Lordships and of myself that notice should be given of these inquiries, in order to their being answered more completely and correctly than otherwise could be done.
Now, with reference to the different subjects on which the noble Earl has touched, I quite concur with him in the general views he has taken as to the distribution of honours and rewards for gallantry in the field or good conduct in the army—that the sooner these honours are conferred, the more weight they carry with them in the estimation of those on whom they are bestowed. And, in so concurring with my noble Friend, I can assure him that no time shall be lost in redeeming the promise made by my noble Friend (the Duke of Newcastle), as the representative of the Government of which he was a Member, and with reference especially to the new class of honours in the army to which the noble Earl has referred. It is quite true that much consideration is required to be given to the manner in which such honours ought to be conferred, and that we may derive advantage from considering the mode in which they are conferred in foreign countries into whose armies they have been introduced; but I can assure him that in that direction also no time shall be lost in enabling us to reward immediately, and on the scene of action, the gallant deeds of our army.
The next point to which the noble Earl has alluded is with respect to a measure as to which I am ready to give the full credit to the noble Duke who preceded me in the office I now fill; and I trust, my Lords, that in no act of that noble Duke, whether in a matter merely shadowed forth by him for future consideration, or already adopted, and conducive to the well-being of that army whose comfort he has had so much at heart, I shall be found for a moment to hesitate in giving him full credit for the good he has effected. It is my anxious desire, if possible, to do away with the impression which I am afraid may exist in the public mind, that my predecessor had neglected, or rather, had not carried out to the fullest extent, the interests of the army committed to his charge. My noble friend did his utmost to conduct the affairs of his army efficiently; but, from various reasons, one of which was that we were hurried into a war at a time when our army was only upon a peace establishment, neither the noble
1404
Duke nor any other individual, not even the noble Earl himself, could have administered the affairs of the army with much more success than he has done. There is much more yet to be done, no doubt; but in what the noble Duke has done, he has already laid the ground-work for further proceedings—I am not disposed to detract from the merit of what is undoubtedly a great improvement in the army—I mean the establishment of the Land Transport Corps, which will supply the place of the waggon attached to the Duke of Wellington's army. That corps owes its existence solely and entirely to the exertions of the noble Duke. On Monday last the officer in command of the Land Transport Corps embarked for the scene of operations in the Crimea, and as quickly as possible his officers and men will rally round him. He will have charge, distinctly and separately from the Commissariat or any other department, of the whole and entire land transport service in connection with Lord Raglan's army, and he will be responsible for finding ambulances for the sick and wounded, and for the conveyance of provisions and stores.
The next subject to which the noble Earl adverted was the step, which has been adopted by the Emperor of the French, of sending to the army an officer to see with his own eyes, to inquire into the whole position of the army, and, having made a full and complete survey, to report the results of his inquiry. It is my duty to inform the House that the Cabinet have already determined to follow that course. They have determined to send out an officer who shall report to them the whole state of the army, and its condition, physical and moral, who shall communicate with Lord Raglan, and be able to inform the Government with respect to his views, not only with respect to the army, but with respect to all matters concerning operations in the Crimea. For this appointment will be required an officer of some standing, in whom the greatest confidence can be reposed, and an officer between whom and the Commander in Chief of the army no jealousy can exist. We hope at an early period to secure the services of such an officer, and I trust that when the appointment shall be made the Government will be put at an early period in possession of his report, and will be enabled to act with reference to the army with more effect and success than hitherto.
I now come to the subject of promo-

1405
tions, which is a very difficult and delicate subject for those to deal with who are at home, and who are not, therefore, perfectly aware of the services that have been performed. I believe that the promotions that have taken place have been for "distinguished services in the field," and not merely, as the noble Earl said, for "distinguished services." When Lord Raglan, or the commander of any army, recommends an officer for promotion for "distinguished services in the field," I do not see how the Government at home could go into further details with respect to the services of that officer. It must be assumed that the services which have been rendered are such as to warrant the Commander in Chief in recommending the officer for promotion; and whether the services rendered may have been in storming a battery, in heading the troops in a gallant charge, or in performing gallant deeds of any other description, they are services rendered in the field, are good and gallant services, and are grounds for promotion. I think it would be difficult and somewhat dangerous to interfere with the discretion of the Commander in Chief in describing such services, and we at home, 3,000 miles from the scene of action, can know nothing of what the services are. With reference to rewards having been distributed in much disproportion to the staff and regimental officers. I am inclined to believe, with the noble Earl, that there have been on some occasions discrepancies in the allotment of rewards. It is my determination, my Lords, to look into this matter, and particularly with regard to the rewards given to regimental officers; for I have always been struck, in the numerous recommendations which have been made on great occasions, by the omission of the names of regimental officers of the lower rank where their services were in my opinion almost equal to any performed in the field.
In reference to what the noble Earl has stated, and to the comparison which he has made between the sufferings of the officers in the army and the sufferings of the men, I must say I am afraid that such comparisons will not tend to benefit that army. I am quite certain the noble Earl does not mean to insinuate that the officers in the army have refused in any way to share the privations of the men. I believe, my Lords, that there never was an army which had a more devoted band of officers than that at present in the Crimea; and whatever hardships have been undergone, whether in the
1406
field or in the trenches, or in whatever duty they may have been called upon to perform, they have cheerfully shared with the men in all the privations to which they have been subjected, and in all the difficult and onerous duties which they have been required to perform. I cannot certainly, my Lords, account for the disproportion with regard to the sick in the number of officers and men. That is one of those questions which cannot be answered now, and which must be subject of investigation; and, in regard to the sickness which has occurred in the 63rd Regiment, it is a case which has attracted much attention, and is one to which further attention will be very particularly directed. I cannot conceive what could have been the reason for the sickness and mortality which has taken place in that regiment, except it was that, being very young men, they had been suddenly called upon to perform very severe duties, from the more laborious part of which the officers would necessarily be, to a very great extent, relieved. The subject is one, however, which has engaged my attention, and I have already directed Lord Raglan that, under any circumstances whatever, whenever a regiment is so reduced by casualties as to induce him to send that regiment away, he is at once to send it home to this country, and not to depâts in the Mediterranean, where its presence might dispirit others, and give a false and exaggerated impression of the hardships which have been endured. My Lords, the only other point to which I have to refer is that to which the noble Earl also alluded—namely, the care which an officer takes of his regiment, or which a captain takes of his company. I entirely agree that an officer is as much, or perhaps even more, entitled to credit and reward for taking due care of his regiment or company as he is for leading that regiment or company on to gallant services in the field. I think that inasmuch as the commanding officer is rewarded for the distinguished services of his regiment in the field, so should the colonel of a regiment who exhibited a disposition and capacity for taking care of the men under his charge be entitled to the notice of his superiors, and also to a reward for die services which he may thus have rendered. An analogy is drawn by some persons between the commander of a regiment and the commander of a ship. If a ship meets with the smallest accident, the commanding officer is made responsible

1407
and is called to account. So, if a regiment happens to get into bad order, either through sickness or from any other cause, my apprehension is that the commanding officer should be called to account for the state his regiment is in; and, if that regiment is in a superior state to others placed in a similar position and under similar circumstances, I think the conduct of that commanding officer should be noticed for commendation.
Another point to which the noble Earl alluded was the appointment of General Simpson for service in the East, and to whose claims and character he has done no more than justice. The noble Earl seems to share in the report which has been circulated that General Simpson has been sent to the army for the purpose of taking the command of one of the vacant divisions. My Lords, that is not the object for which his services have been required. It has struck me forcibly, in looking over all I have heard and learnt as to the state of the army, that the general staff of the army requires to be inspected from its head down to its lowest member; and, likewise, that there ought to be an officer in our army in the situation of chief of the staff, who shall communicate and convey to the heads of the departments the orders of the general—whose duty it shall be not only to convey to the heads of departments the orders of the general, but who, having given those orders, shall see that they are strictly, implicitly, and immediately carried out. He will be an officer corresponding to one that exists in the French army. I believe that post was instituted by the Emperor Napoleon, who was compelled to institute it from being utterly unable to convey from his own mouth to the different heads of the departments in his army the orders which he thought requisite. General Simpson, therefore, will be chief of the staff. It will be his duty to take Lord Raglan's orders, and to convey them to the Quarter Master General and the Adjutant General; and it will be his duty, as I said before, to see that these orders are strictly and implicitly obeyed. It will be his duty also to inspect and to review each of those staff departments throughout all their ramifications, to report to Lord Raglan his opinion of the fitness or unfitness of the various officers composing those departments for the positions they may fill; and I am quite sure that, from General Simpson's character for uprightness and impartiality, from his knowledge of the duties
1408
which a soldier ought to perform, and of the men who are capable of performing those duties, he will speedily make both the Quarter-Master General's and the Adjutant General's departments far more efficient than I am sorry to say they are represented to be at present. I have great confidence in General Simpson's abilities to perform these duties. I have represented to him the hardships he may be called upon to endure in common with other officers of the army; I have represented to him the duties which will be expected from him by the Government; I have questioned him with reference to his physical capacity to perform those duties: and he has assured me that, though age has crept upon him since he was engaged in the service to which the noble Earl has so handsomely referred, he believes himself still capable of rendering good and efficient service to his country—and upon that assurance he has been appointed.
While upon this subject, I beg now to be permitted to proceed to a duty which I intended to have performed had the noble Earl not put these questions to me—namely, to present to your Lordships a Bill (which I shall endeavour to have carried through as speedily as possible) for enabling Her Majesty to alter still further the period of service in the army. Your Lordships are aware that the period of service was limited, by a Bill which I had the honour of introducing in the other House in 1847, to a term of ten years. That Bill has not yet been in operation sufficiently long to enable us to judge of what the effect of that shorter period of enlistment will be; but in the present emergency, with a view to obtain a class of men who will be better capable of enduring the hardships of service than those boys of eighteen who are now in the habit of enlisting, I propose to introduce a Bill which shall enable Her Majesty in Council to declare that she will accept the service of any man who may choose to enlist in the army for any period under ten years; that is to say, we may enlist men for one or for two, or for three years, taking those men at the ages of not under twenty-four and not above thirty-two. That will enable us to obtain a class of men for short terms of service who will be immediately fit to undergo the hardships of a campaign—whose constitution will fit them to undergo immediately the hardships of the field, and who, having served daring the period for which they have enlisted

1409
will not find themselves tied to a profession in which they may not desire to remain. Your Lordships, I think, will feel that, in bringing forward this Bill, we are taking one more step in the right direction for recruiting our army from the right class of men; for, however well those boys of eighteen turn out, yet two or three years must elapse before they are well drilled, well fed, and properly trained, and, as to sending them within six months after enlistment to represent the valour of this country in the field of war, it is evident that they must at that period be totally unfit to compete with the enemy against whom they are sent. I feel sure we shall be enabled by this Bill to obtain for Her Majesty's service a better class of recruits, whose constitutions will permit them to endure the hardships they may have to undergo.
In introducing this Bill, it was my intention—and I trust your Lordships will allow me to trespass upon your attention for a few moments longer—to state the course I mean to pursue with reference to several subjects which of late have engaged the public attention. Great complaints, my Lords, have been made—with what justice I am not able to say, for I have not yet received the explanations which were required by the Government from the officers charged with neglect, and I should be sorry to condemn any man without a hearing—I say great complaints have been made against the commissariat department of the army in the East. It has been said that it has been lax in obtaining supplies, and lax also in distributing those supplies when obtained; and that it has to a very great extent failed in maintaining the army in the condition which we had reason to expect. Now, my Lords, I have determined to send out a commission to inquire into the whole of this matter. I have obtained for the services of that commission a gentleman whose name I have only to mention to prove to your Lordships that I have endeavoured to find out the best man I could, from his connexion with that country and the former services rendered by him in the East—I mean Sir John M'Neill. That distinguished gentleman has undertaken to leave the employment which he has filled hitherto with so much credit to himself and so much usefulness to his country. He has agreed to leave his charge in Scotland, and, at the head of this commission, to make a searching inquiry into all that has taken place; and
1410
with his full knowledge of the sources from which supplies can be afforded in connection with our army in the East, I have not the smallest doubt that he will be of the greatest use to that army, and will render important, as I know he will render useful, services in the East. With reference to the hospitals, we have taken, within these two days, great pains to inform ourselves, as far as possible, upon the exact state of these establishments. We have already taken means to clear the hospital at Scutari, and to put it upon a better and more healthy footing, and I have given directions to remove out of that hospital a depot of the army which was quartered there together with the women and children attached to it, so that the barracks they occupy may be given over exclusively to the control of the medical department; and, above all, I have put an end to that which struck me as one great source of many of the evils of that hospital—I mean the sale of ardent spirits within its limits. But we have done more. We have established an hospital for convalescents at Smyrna, solely and entirely under the control of civil practitioners. We have also taken means for providing hospital offices at Scutari, containing accommodation for 5,000 men in detached buildings and in huts, which will also be put under the charge of a staff of civil practitioners; for I regret to say that the army medical department is scarcely able to supply the demands made upon it for the service of the army in the East. These, it will be admitted, are great and important improvements, which will be carried out with the least possible delay—for I am aware that there may be a demand made at any moment for hospital accommodation for the wounded and sick which, unless we can provide it with vigour beforehand, may lead to most unhappy results.
My Lords, another great danger has forcibly struck me with regard to the state of the camp. Stationary as that camp has been for many weeks, although the inconveniences arising from a stationary camp may not be perceived at this moment, when everything is locked in the hard and icy embrace of winter, yet the instant that the sun begins to shine and the earth to give out its warmth, fermentation will take place, and the steam of the camp will create plague and pestilence, unless speedy measures be taken to prevent it. Upon Friday last, therefore, in a despatch which I addressed to Lord Raglan, I desired him,

1411
as it was perfectly certain that the pioneers of his army could not cope with these difficulties, immediately to take steps, in conjunction with our Ambassador at Constantinople, to form a corps of scavengers, whose duty it would be at once to perform all scavenger work in the camp. I order to give a proper direction and superintendence to these operations, I have determined to avail myself of the services of three gentlemen connected with the sanitary operations of this great city, and to send one of them to the hospital at Scutari, another to Balaklava, and the third to the camp, in order to give such directions and make such suggestions for the sanitary care of the whole camp and hospital as shall save us from the effects of pestilence, should such unfortunately break out. In adopting this course I have taken, I think, one of the most important steps in order to save many lives in prospect.
The only other point to which I shall advert is, that inasmuch as my noble Friend has turned his attention to the land transport of the army, so my right hon. Friend at the head of the Admiralty has directed his attention to the sea transport for the same purpose; and he has thought it right—and I entirely concur with him in the view which he has taken of the matter—to establish a Transport Board, which, during the war, shall be charged with the conveyance of all the army and other stores, and which shall be in immediate communication, in the first instance, with myself, or whoever may be Minister of War, so that no delay need occur, when an expedition is undertaken and stores and supplies are to be sent, in giving full notice of the tonnage required for the purpose of sending out that expedition or forwarding those stores without loss of time to the port to which they are to be sent.
My Lords, it will of course be satisfactory to the House to be made acquainted with everything which is proceeding in relation to this subject, and, so far as a due regard to the interests of the public service will permit it, I shall be happy to afford every information in my power. I may add that, having no longer any occasion for the services of Sir John Burgoyne in the camp—General Harry Jones having now gone out there to take the command of the Engineer department—I have thought it my duty to recall Sir John Burgoyne to the office which he before filled with so much public advantage in this country—that of Inspector General
1412
of Fortifications, attached to the Ordnance Department.
With these observations, I have only further to say that there is another great subject which has attracted my attention, and which is only of secondary moment to the condition of the army itself now serving in the East—it is the subject of a reform in the military administration of all the civil departments of the army. My Lords, to that subject the Government are turning their attention; but until I am in a position to say that everything has been done, or is being done, in order to remedy whatever may have gone wrong with the army in the Crimea, to bring into good order the working of the Commissariat, to remove the evils which have existed in the hospitals, and to set the whole thing in such a state as to give me a satisfactory assurance that it will go on in a proper manner for the future, subject to no other casualties than those over which human power has no control—until that is done, I say, I cannot promise to lay before your Lordships any scheme for the administration of the civil branches of the army. I hope, however, that the period is not distant when I shall be enabled to do so; and that I shall succeed in drawing such a distinction as shall meet with public approbation between the two branches of the army, and point out the method by which, under the control of one Minister, all the civil administrations of the army may be easily concentrated and carried out, and by which, under the control of the Commander in Chief, the discipline of the whole may also be properly administered. But, before I consider such a scheme, it is my desire to direct my efforts more particularly to bringing the army under Lord Raglan into a proper condition, so as to hold out the promise of a permanent improvement.
My noble Friend behind me (the Marquess of Lansdowne) has reminded me of one other point which I have undertaken, and which is a very important one. It is, that as soon as we can obtain a sufficiency of transports, it is the intention of the Government to establish a communication every week or ten days direct between Scutari and England, by means of steamers fitted up as hospital ships, which shall bring home from Scutari to England every week or ten days 300 or 400, or perhaps 500, of our wounded or sick, who will be far sooner restored to the service of the army—or, certainly, far sooner restored to health, if not to the service of the army—

1413
in this country, than they can possibly be in the place where they now are; for I have been informed by medical gentlemen and others that such is the state of the atmosphere in those regions that wounds scarcely ever heal properly there, and that, fever supervening upon them, are hardly curable. Under these circumstances, it appeared to us actually necessary that some such means should be taken to save those poor men who had been wounded and struck down—and it appeared to us to be one of the surest, as well, I may add, as one of the most economical courses which could be adopted, with a view to saving the lives of the men, to remove them at once to their homes in this country, so that they may have the benefit of comforts procurable here, and recover much more speedily than they would in hospitals abroad. Thanking the House for the patience with which it has listened to these observations, I now present the Bill, and move that it be read a first time.
A Bill to amend the Act for limiting the Time of Service in the Army, presented by the Lord Panmure.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that the statement which had just been made by his noble Friend, at least afforded some grounds for hope that there was a probability, under God's blessing, of mitigating, if not of averting, the great disasters which appeared to be hanging over our army. He was apprehensive, however, that we had not yet by any means reached the maximum of the danger; for, great as had been the difficulties, the privations, and the mortality under the influence of the cold weather, they were nothing compared with those which would be developed when the sun exhibited some warmth upon that saturated soil where thousands of human beings had been en-encamped during the last three or four months. It was very well known—and if their Lordships would refer to that excellent work by Sir John Pringle on the Diseases of the Army—that in all great campaigns the fevers which had decimated the troops had broken out, not during the winter months of their encampment, but when spring began to dawn, and the sun to shine with some power. If, then, something were not done to obviate these consequences we might depend upon it that scarcely one man of our gallant army would return to these shores alive. Hundreds upon hundreds were sent daily from the Crimea; and they were dying in the
1414
hospitals—not from the effect of wounds, but from dysentery and diarrhœa and similar diseases, which were occasioned by the pestilential atmosphere in which they were placed. It was next to impossible that any one who was wounded and carried into these hospitals should recover—it was almost impossible that any one struck down by a common simple disorder could recover. He had heard it stated, upon the authority of medical men, that if those young men whom we were sending out in such numbers, and who must be subject to some sickness until they were acclimatised, could go to a proper hospital, where every sanitary arrangement was complete, they would in a very short time return fit for active service; but that they might as well be sent to a charnel-house at once as to the hospitals in their present state, for that there was no hope whatever of their recovery. He had only that morning seen a letter from a physician, stating that the hospitals at Balaklava were more filthy than any knacker's yard in the city of London. Of course, more sickness and greater casualties were to be expected, and it was therefore necessary that due preparations should be made to receive those additional cases. If that were done he believed that we might still entertain a hope that the larger part of the army might be saved; but if it were not done, he believed, from all the evidence which he had received—and it was not inconsiderable—that it would be a positive miracle if one-twentieth part of that army which had gone out in such force to fight our battles in the Crimea ever returned to their native shores. He felt assured that the country would feel gratified at the decided interest manifested by the noble Lord by the new arrangements which he had proposed. He could assure him that the commission which was to be sent to the East would be most effective, as being distinct from the medical staff, and not interfering with that body, but having absolute control over the sanitary regulations and full power to carry into effect such arrangements as might appear most desirable. He believed that from the very hour that commission was appointed there would be a visible and permanent improvement in the welfare of the army.
THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, that there was one point to which the noble Lord had not referred, and which was of great importance, and that was the state of the harbour of Balaklava. It was most

1415
essential that effective arrangements should be made for the distribution of stores when they arrived at Balaklava. It appeared that Admiral Boxer had been appointed to the superintendence of that harbour; and, however invidious it might be to mention names, still he was sorry to say that that appointment had not been viewed with satisfaction by the public. The name of that officer had been associated with all that had proved deficient in the communication between the two sides of the Bosphorus, and the alleged want of sympathy he had displayed did not lead to the belief that his appointment was one which was calculated to give any assurance to the public that those errors which had been committed would not be committed again. He wished to ask the noble Lord the Minister for War, if, among the other improvements to which he had referred, he was prepared to announce, on the part of the Admiralty, that that great key to all the calamity of the army had received the attention of the Government.
LORD PANMUREcould answer the question of the noble Earl in a very few words. Admiral Boxer had been appointed to the immediate control of the harbour of Balaklava, but instructions had been given to Lord Raglan, and more especially to Admiral Lyons, to take every possible step to bring the confusion existing in that harbour into something like proper order. He could only add, that several officers attached to the Customs, who had been in the habit of superintending landing in the docks and the landing of stores, had been sent out to assist in putting things in a proper condition.
THE EARL OF HARROWBYthought that one of the greatest faults which had been committed was that months ago persons accustomed to deal with such matters as the shipment and landing of goods had not been consulted. He was convinced that such gentlemen as Messrs. Peto and Brassey could have pointed out means of landing stores which, if they had been resorted to six months ago, would have secured the army from the sufferings it had undergone. The Government in time of peace had no opportunity of becoming acquainted with such matters, and it was to their interest, when the necessity arose, to have recourse to the commercial energy of the country.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHwished to know if Sir John M'Neill would have full authority to remove any obstructions
1416
and redress any grievances he might discover, or only to report as to their existence. It appeared to him that one great source of error and delay was to be found in the system of accounts, with its various checks and precautions. However excellently these might work in time of peace, it was vain to expect that they could be efficient in time of war, when certainty and despatch in the execution of orders were the great requisites.
LORD PANMUREsaid, that the Commissioners sent out would not have power either of dismissing or appointing persons; they would be called upon to make reports, both to the Government and the Commander in Chief, as to any change which might seem necessary. It would then be in the power of the Commander in Chief to make such changes on his own responsibility before the report reached the home Government; but whether the Commander in Chief did or did not make those changes, the reports would reach the home Government, and it would then be their duty to consider them, and to take such steps as might appear necessary.
Bill read 1a.

THE VOTE OF THANKS—THE FLEET IN THE BLACK SEA.
THE LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House that he had received the following letter from Rear Admiral Sir Edmund Lyons, Bart., G.C.B., in return to the Thanks of this House communicated to him in obedience to an Order of this House of the 15th of December last—
"Agamemnon, off Sevastopol.
30th January, 1855.
"MY LORD,
"Having succeeded Vice Admiral Dundas in the Command of this Station, the Honour has devolved upon me of communicating to Rear Admiral the Honourable Montagu Stopford, and to the several Captains, Officers, and Seamen of Her Majesty's Fleet in the Black Sea, the unanimous Expression of the Thanks of the House of Lords for their Services during the present War, and the high Sense which it entertains of the Value of their Services:
"These Expressions of the Thanks and Approbation of the House of Lords are deeply felt throughout the Fleet, and encourage us all to make increased Exertions for the Honour and Glory of our Queen and Country:
"By the Terms in which your Lordship has been pleased to communicate these Resolutions we all feel highly honoured and gratified:
"I have the Honour to be,
"My Lord,
"With much Respect and Regard,
"Your Lordships most obedient, humble Servant,
"EDMUND LYONS,
"Rear Admiral and Commander in Chief."

1417
The said Letter being read was Ordered to lie on the Table; and to be entered on the Journals.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that their Lordships must have observed that the Thanks voted by their Lordships to Members of their Lordships' House, who had distinguished themselves, had not been communicated in person by the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack to the illustrious individuals to whom the Thanks were voted. He knew that the noble and learned Lord had followed precedents, and that, if precedents had allowed it, he would have done so. As, however, some blame had been attached to the noble Lord for not having done so, and as he knew it was undeserved, he was glad to give the noble and learned Lord an opportunity of explaining why the course followed in the other House had not been adopted here.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was obliged to his noble and learned Friend for giving him an opportunity of explaining what had been done. When the noble and gallant Earl (the Earl of Cardigan), whom he was glad to see again in his place, returned to this country, it occurred to him that the same course which had been taken by the other House of Parliament ought to be taken by their Lordships, and he had immediately inquired into what had been done on other occasions. He had referred to what had taken place from the commencement of the last century, and he found that a Vote of Thanks agreed to by their Lordships had never been personally delivered to a Member of their Lordships' House, unless he had been Commander in Chief, and then only upon a special vote of their Lordships, directing it to be done. When the House of Commons voted Thanks to officers, the resolution usually went on to say that it should be communicated by letter to all to whom the Thanks were given, except such as were Members of that House, and that to them the Speaker should communicate them in person. Such had not been the custom in their Lordships' House; and, independently of any other objections, he (the Lord Chancellor) had no authority from their Lordships to communicate their Thanks without special directions. It was not for him to say whether their Lordships ought to diverge from the ordinary custom, but he had had the matter looked into, and was happy to be able, in the presence of the noble Earl, to show that no blame was attributable to him (the Lord Chancellor) that the course
1418
adopted in the other House had not been pursued in their Lordships' House.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to add that there could be not the slightest objection to depart from the ordinary practice beyond the obvious and powerful reason that it would tend to throw discredit on all former Members of that House who had received the Thanks of the House otherwise than personally.
LORD CAMPBELLcould not see the force of the observation of his noble and learned Friend who spoke last. He thought it would be much better to change the course which they had hitherto pursued and adopt that taken by the other House. He could not see how it would reflect in the slightest degree on those Members who had received the Thanks of the House when a different system prevailed.
House adjourned to Monday next.