Lords Sitting of 30 April 1855

MINUTE.
PUBLIC BILL.—3a Militia.

SUPPLIES TO THE SARDINIAN CONTINGENT.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he wished to call the attention of the noble Lord at the head of the War Department to a statement that had appeared on Saturday, in a letter dated the 22nd of the month, from Genoa. That statement was to the effect that two of the largest vessels, the Crœsus and the Nubia, had been laden
1936
with provisions for the Sardinian troops, in consequence of the Commissary General in the Crimea having declared himself unable to fulfil the engagement that the Sardinian troops should be supplied with provisions by the British Commissariat. He was of opinion that, unless there was some military convention of which they had no knowledge to supply the Sardinian troops from the British Commissariat, that duty was not imposed on them. The obligation we had undertaken was, to secure and facilitate the supply of provisions to the Sardinian army; but he apprehended that such securing and facilitating the supply of provisions to the Sardinian army would be effected by giving to the Sardinian Government the use and advantage of the transports at our disposal. It was desirable that their Lordships should have information as to what steps had been taken to carry out the provisions of the convention. With regard to the alleged inability of the Commissary General in the Crimea to fulfil the condition—supposing it existed—of supplying the Sardinian troops from the British Commissariat, he could not think it possible that that could be the case. He thought it was impossible, because the convention was dated the 26th January, and of course it must have been known for a long time before that it was in contemplation; and he presumed that the Minister of War had given immediate information to the Commissary General, with directions to take care to obtain a sufficiency of provisions for the additional troops. Difficulty there was none in providing a sufficiency of food at Balaklava for the use of the troops. A single ship of 1,000 tons would convey provisions for twenty-two days for 40,000 men, and four times that amount of tonnage would so continue that supply, that the army would have always at its disposal twenty-two days' provisions, besides what was contained in its magazines. Therefore, considering the amount of tonnage at the command of the Government, he thought there could be no difficulty in complying with that requisition at Balaklava. There was no doubt that the demands on the Commissariat had largely increased since October. In that month there was probably about 30,000 rations required; and notwithstanding all the losses the army had sustained, yet, taking into consideration the large drafts that had been sent out from this country to several regiments, and the large number of additional regiments already sent out, as well as the

1937
ten regiments that were to be sent from the Mediterranean when they were relieved, and also considering that a number of men were to be provisioned by the Commissariat, who were employed and would be employed in the land transport corps, he could not but think that at present there was a demand for 40,000 rations. They would besides have a new demand in a few weeks for rations for 20,000 troops of the Turkish levy, and there was also a further demand coming upon them for 4,000 rations on account of General Beatson's corps of cavalry, and for rations for the followers necessarily attached to these troops. There would be also a new demand for rations for about 10,000 men of the reserve stationed at Malta, so that, instead of there being only a demand, as in October, for 30,000 rations, the demand could not be less than for 70,000 or 80,000 rations. Difficulty there could be none in supplying the troops near Balaklava; and in the ordinary state of the roads there would be no difficulty in carrying up to the lines a sufficiency of food to be used by the troops. 450 or 500 animals would be perfectly capable of carrying up all the rations for 40,000 men every day. As the men had hitherto been fed from hand to mouth, he presumed it was intended they would continue to be fed in the same way, and, therefore, 450 or 500 animals would be sufficient. But the case would be different when the army moved into the field. When it moved into the field 10,000 mules would be required to carry provisions, and as they required 4,000 persons to lead them and look after them, they would also require 4,000 more rations. For these 10,000 mules they would require forage, which, in a country like that, must be carried also. And the further the army went from the coast the greater number of mules would be required, to return empty and keep up the supply by bringing back to the army fresh provisions. Therefore, if the Commissary General said it would be impossible for him to supply the army in the field with provisions, that would be probably the fact, because the question of land transport would be involved in it; but the only question that had been put to the Commissary General was, whether he could supply food or not to the Sardinian troops at Balaklava; and he (the Earl of Ellenborough) thought it was impossible that he should have said he could not. When he thus referred to the great demand on the resources of the Commissariat—to which he had also re-
1938
ferred on former occasions, but with little success—he must at the same time press upon the noble Lord the Minister of War the necessity of providing persons, without taking them from the ranks of the army, for the purpose of acting in various situations under the Commissariat, and in the various situations in which men were required to act with an army. As the army then stood, or lately stood, he learned, not only from information he had himself, but from what he had gathered from the information contained in the public journals, that 4,000 troops were detached for Commissariat purposes; and if they sustained a loss of 4,000 men in consequence of the number required for those purposes, and if they did not otherwise provide for the execution of the duty, by the extension of the force now taking place, they would be reducing to a very serious, dangerous, and painful extent, the ranks of the army, which they must again fill up; but no matter what provision they might make for that purpose, if they could not obtain men it would be impossible for them to carry on the war with success. He wished to know whether there was any convention in furtherance of the objects of the clause in the Military Convention with Sardinia for the purpose of specifying what France and England were to do with the view of securing and facilitating the provisioning and maintenance of the Sardinian troops, and whether the Commissary General in the Crimea had been applied to, to supply those troops, and had replied that he was unable to do so?
LORD PANMUREin reply to the first question of the noble Earl, had to state that he had heard with considerable surprise what had been stated with regard to the Crœsus, one of the most important vessels in the transport service, and which had been intended to convey Sardinian troops to the Crimea. He did not say that the ship went to be laden with provisions, but he did expect that provisions would have been sent for the maintenance of the Sardinian troops. The understanding between the two Governments was, that, in the first instance, the Sardinian Government should send forth an army accompanied by one month's provisions for the maintenance of that army. There was no further convention between the two Governments, but there was an understanding with reference to the Sardinian army, that, to avoid contention in the market, provisions should be supplied to it from the

1939
British Commissariat, which were to be paid for by the Sardinian Government, and the Commissariat Department of the British army had been charged to furnish magazines able to answer the demands for rations made by the Sardinian troops. What was received by those troops would be paid for, and an intimation to that effect had a considerable time ago been sent to the Commander in Chief of the British army in the Crimea. It was quite true that Mr. Filder, in the first instance, expressed some doubt as to procuring supplies; but neither Lord Raglan nor Mr. Filder had ever expressed any doubt that, with sufficient means at their disposal, they could fully and efficiently supply the necessities of the army. He was satisfied, from information which he had received by the last mail from Sir John M'Neill, who had been sent out to inquire into the efficiency of the Commissariat, that that gentleman was convinced, from the facts before him and his experience in that country, that ample supplies of meat and grain were to be found there, and that there was at this moment at the disposal of the Commissary General sufficient for the maintenance of any number of troops which it could fall to his lot to have to supply. He thought that this answered two of the questions which the noble Earl had put. With reference to the other point—namely, the increasing demand upon the Commissariat, he might state that the Commissary General of the army in the Crimea would not he called upon to supply the Turkish Contingent or the troops forming under General Beatson. Those forces would be supplied from other sources, and not from any means at Mr. Filder's command. With regard to what the noble Earl had stated respecting the large number of men detached on commissariat duty, the attention of Lord Raglan continued to be directed to the importance of reducing as much as possible the number of persons employed in administering to the wants of the army from the ranks of the army itself. The question appeared to resolve itself into this—whether, when an army was called upon to advance into the interior of a country, or was employed as the British army was at present employed in the Crimea, it was desirable to take from the ranks of the army a certain number of men to perform these services, or to add to the non-combatant ranks of the army individuals who should do that work for them, as was the case in the Indian army? No
1940
doubt there were evils in both systems. A practical soldier might say that the manner in which the service was performed in the Queen's army was attended with less inconvenience than resulted from the plan adopted in the Company's army. For himself, he thought that whenever the services of civilians could be employed they ought to be; and he was happy to state that at this moment the whole duty of the camp, which would fall naturally upon the pioneers, was entirely in the charge of civilians, and that for that purpose, therefore, no troops were detached from the ranks. Whenever the army began to move he feared that it would be necessary to continue to observe the practice which at present obtained in the British army, of course always taking care that no men should be detached from the ranks whose services were necessary in other situations. However, when the army moved, he was afraid that it would be necessary to detach men from the ranks, instead of the army being accompanied by a large number of men for the purpose of performing these duties, which might be attended with much inconvenience, and these parties might fall into the habit of plundering the country.

MILITIA (IRELAND) BILL,
Bill read 3a (according to Order).
THE EARL OF WICKLOWsaid, he was anxious that their Lordships should give a little more attention to this measure than they had yet bestowed on it. Upon the two former occasions when it had come before the House very little had been said upon the subject, and it had been read a second time before he had had an opportunity of seeing it. Considerable interest, however, existed in Ireland with reference to it, and he had been requested to take steps with the view of rescuing Irish officers of militia from the evils to which the Bill subjected them. By the Act of Geo III., to which the present Bill referred, certain property qualifications were required for militia officers in Ireland, which were much higher than those required from officers of a corresponding rank in England. He believed that very few persons in Ireland who were in the habit of signing militia commissions, and of certifying to the possession of certain qualifications by militia officers, were really aware what those qualifications were. He had been a colonel of militia so long ago as 1810, and he was ashamed to say

1941
that until he had looked into the provisions of the proposed measure he had not been aware of the qualification necessary. Their Lordships would be surprised to hear how different the qualification was in the three countries. He found, upon investigation, that the qualification for a colonel of militia in Ireland was to be in possession of 2,000 l. a year, or to be heir apparent to 3,000 l. a year; while in England it was to be in possession of 1,000 l. a year, or to be heir apparent to 1,000 l. a year; and in Scotland it was to be in possession of 600 l. a year, or to be heir apparent to a similar amount. The qualification for a lieutenant-colonel in Ireland was to be in possession of 1,200 l. a year, or to be heir apparent to 1,800 l.; while in England and Scotland it was respectively to be in possession of, or to be heir apparent to, 600 l. and 400 l. a year. The qualification for a major in England was 400 l., or heir apparent to the same; in Scotland, 300 l. a year, or heir apparent to the same; in Ireland 300 l. a year, or heir apparent to 600 l. The qualification in England for a captain was 200 l., or heir apparent for the same; in Scotland, 200 l. a year, or heir apparent for the same; in Ireland, 200 l. a year, or heir apparent to 400 l. a year. The same discrepancy was observable throughout the inferior grades of the service, and he was at a loss to understand upon what grounds it was that militia officers in Ireland should be required to possess so much higher qualifications than were required in the case of English and Scotch officers of the same rank. He proposed that the qualification should be the same as in England and Scotland; for he was convinced that unless a provision of that kind were introduced, the consequences would be very disagreeable. He had no objection to their making any regulations with regard to those officers who might be newly appointed, but he was most anxious that the rights of those whose appointments were not of recent date should be preserved. Many officers had been put to an enormous expense in order to render themselves available for immediate duty, and he thought it was extremely hard that those officers who had shown such laudable zeal for the service of their country should now be called upon to lodge a qualification which be believed a large proportion of them would be unable to do. There was another arrangement which, in his opinion, was very objectionable. Many officers of the Irish militia who had now joined their regi-
1942
ments were of old standing, and had served during the last war, or between that period and the present year. Their Lordships were aware that in consequence of the great distress which had prevailed in Ireland a vast change of property had taken place under the Encumbered Estates Act, and he himself knew captains, and, he believed, field officers, in the militia, who, at the time they obtained their commissions, were perfectly qualified under the Act, but who, in consequence of having been obliged, through the pressure of the times, to part with the whole or a large portion of their property, would not be qualified. He begged to propose two amendments—the first with a view to reduce the qualification of officers in the Irish militia to the same amount as that of officers in the English and Scotch militia; and the second, to enable any officer who was qualified under the Act to make a return of the qualification which he possessed at the time he received his appointment.
LORD PANMUREsaid, that from the speech of the noble Earl one would suppose that the principle of the Bill was to impose pains and penalties upon officers of the Irish militia, whereas it was of a protective character, and there was nothing whatever in its provision to alter the qualification of officers on their admission to a regiment, or the penalties to which officers were liable who obtained appointments without being duly qualified. When the Irish militia was embodied it was found that during the time it had existed in its disembodied state, officers had been appointed without reference to any consideration of qualification, and that they had entirely overlooked the provisions of the law, which required them to register their qualification at the time they took up their commissions. The object of the present act was to protect the officers from the penalties which such an oversight had subjected them to. He did not believe that more than one case of prosecution had been or would be instituted against any officer, but it was absolutely necessary to protect them from those penalties to which they had subjected themselves, and it was proposed to do that by giving them three months in which to register their qualification. It was not proposed to alter the qualification itself. He was free to admit, however, that the difference in the qualification in Ireland, and in England and Scotland, seemed to him to stand upon no

1943
substantial ground, and, if their Lordships did not see any objection in point of law, he did not see any objection in point of principle to put the three countries upon exactly the same footing. That, however, might be done by another Bill, the principle of the present measure being merely to give the officers protection against the penalties consequent upon their having omitted the requirements of the law as it stood.
Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

TRANSPORT OF TROOPS—THE "ALMA."
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYrose to put a question to the Secretary for War, of which he had given notice, relative to the embarkation of troops on board of the Alma. The statements which had been current respecting this vessel and the troops which were to go in her, required some explanation. Their Lordships might have seen in the papers a statement to the effect that on Monday the 2nd April an order was issued for a detachment of the Guards to embark on the following Wednesday, at Liverpool, on board the Alma; that on Tuesday the 3rd a counter-order was issued that they were to embark on Good Friday at Portsmouth; and that several orders and counter-orders were issued subsequently. It was stated that the first delay was in consequence of the ship not being able to receive the troops; for when they arrived at the place named for embarkation, they found that she was full of other troops. It was said that detachments of other regiments and some companies of Highlanders were landed from the vessel; but still there was not room for the Guards, and the greatest difficulty was experienced in getting the baggage on board, and some of the baggage of the Guards was reported to have sailed in the ship, while the Guards themselves were left behind. From the information which he had received, he believed that the first order for the Guards was received on the 7th of April to march on the 9th. On the 8th, between seven and eight o'clock at night, a counter-order was received, and in consequence the march ordered for the 9th was suspended. On the 9th there was a new order, and this was suspended on the 10th, at nine o'clock in the evening. On the 11th, they were ordered at nine o'clock in the evening to march on the next day. When they arrived at Portsmouth they found that
1944
nothing had been prepared for them, and they were kept there without rations till six o'clock in the evening. All that had taken place in the House of Commons on the subject was an attempt to shift the responsibility from one to the other of the departments. He desired to hear from the Secretary for War on whom the blame of all this vacillation and great want of ordinary precaution should fall. This he regretted was not a solitary instance of remissness and mal-administration. There was another matter bearing on this question, the neglect in respect to which might lead to very serious consequences. These troops were embarked in their old clothing, without any sufficient provision for the summer months, and without the new clothing, which at this season should be supplied to them. They were also sent with the old regimental musket, and without that invaluable and indispensable arm, the Minié rifle. All this showed great neglect on the part of the officials whose duty it was to look to these matters. He, therefore, wished to ask the noble Lord whether these statements were correct; and, if so, what possible defence there could be, after the vast efforts made by the country to provide sufficient means to equip the army, for allowing these things to occur?
LORD PANMUREthought their Lordships had, in the present instance, a very good proof that questions might be put and statements made to which it was impossible to give an answer on the spur of the moment, but by which very erroneous and false impressions might be created on the minds of the public with respect to the conduct of the public departments. The notice of the noble Marquess on the paper was "to put a question to Her Majesty's Government with regard to the embarkation of troops on board the Alma for the East." It was quite impossible for him (Lord Panmure) to know, from the terms of this notice, that the noble Marquess was about to enter into details of which to that moment he (Lord Panmure) had never even heard. The noble Marquess had said that great delay and hesitation had occurred with regard to the embarkation of the troops on board the Alma in consequence of the different orders that were issued. The only order that he knew of, with regard to the delay in the embarkation of those troops, was one to suspend the first order; and the reason for issuing that was, that the ship Alma

1945
had left Liverpool without having gone through the forms of attestation as to her efficiency for carrying such a number of troops. The noble Marquess had further said that, when the Guards arrived at Portsmouth, they were detained and kept without rations until they were put on board the Alma. He (Lord Panmure) had never heard any statement to that effect, either from the officers of the Guards or from any military department. But he must say that, after the orders for the embarkation of the troops had been given, whatever delay might have taken place in the embarkation of those troops must be referred to the Quartermaster General's department. In respect to the description of arms with which the troops had been supplied, certainly never had heard whether there was any ground or not for the report that had been made. He could not, however, believe it possible that it could be true that any detachment of Her Majesty's troops had left this country armed with the old musket. The noble Marquess knew something of military affairs, and he ought to know, and must know, that the whole army now serving in the Crimea had been provided with rifle arms. With regard to the clothing of the detachment of the Guards, he believed they were embarked with a suit of clothing which had been for some time worn; but the Guards were supplied with two suits, and it was the old suit in which they embarked, the second suit having to be supplied to them, and which was not supplied to the regimental troops.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEsaid, the noble Lord had not answered the question put to him—whether the Alma was full of other troops, and that it was necessary to disembark some of the troops to put the Guards in, and whether some of the Guards' baggage had not been sent on while the men were left behind?
LORD PANMUREsaid, it was not true that the Alma was full of troops. There was a detachment of troops on board, which was to accompany the Guards in the Alma, but the ship was not full. The reasons why the Guards were not embarked were sanitary reasons.
LORD WYNFORDcould scarcely reconcile the statements which had been made on the other side, because the Alma was lying in the middle of the harbour for several days. How was it that she was waiting so long? Was it for a certificate from Liverpool to enable her to carry these
1946
troops? As to the second part of the question, he was aware that a very large portion of troops was put on board, and he himself saw the 50th Regiment disembark. They were in the greatest confusion because they could not get their baggage from the ship. Happening to be on the spot, he was practically convinced that there had been some very great mismanagement as to the arrangements for embarking these troops.
THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEwas very sorry to say that he thought the statements made by his noble Friend near him (the Marquess of Salisbury) were correct. He believed it was true that the Guards left this country with smooth-bore arms, and the only way he could explain that was, that the men would, on arriving at Constantinople or at Balaklava, receive the arms there in store, which he believed were the Minié rifle; but virtually the men had left this country for the seat of war without receiving the Minié rifle. With regard to the embarkation of the troops, he certainly thought it was most unfortunate to all concerned, but particularly to the troops, who would experience many discomforts. As regarded his own regiment, he understood that a large quantity of clothing, consisting of 800 pairs of shoes, and 500 pairs of trousers, had been sent down to be shipped with the men, but when the clothing arrived no room could be found in the ship, and consequently it was left upon the beach. He wished to remind his noble Friend (Lord Panmure) that this was not a desirable thing, as shoes were in time of war a most important article, and he understood a month would elapse before they could be sent out to the men. He had thought it right to bring his noble Friend's attention to these matters. He could not help thinking that very great mismanagement had, with regard to the embarkation of these troops, occurred.
LORD PANMUREwas very glad this subject had been discussed, for the more all these matters were brought before their Lordships and the public, the better chance would the heads of the departments have of hearing of them. With reference to the clothing, he was perfectly well aware that a certain quantity was sent down to Southampton, but left behind, and he had had to express his opinion of the conduct of those who were engaged in the transaction. He believed, however, that the clothing would arrive at the Crimea very

1947
shortly after the troops reached there, He had heard that the Alma had arrived at, and had left, Malta, and that, so far as the troops were concerned, they arrived there with the loss of only two men out of 1,058; all the rest were safe and in good health.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that perhaps the noble Lord would allow him to put his questions again on Thursday next.

THE WAR—STATE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS,
THE EARL OF DERBY: If I knew to which Member of the Government to address myself, I should be glad of an opportunity of putting a question of considerable importance, inasmuch as we have arrived at a period in this eventful struggle when it is essential that Her Majesty's Government should lay before Parliament and the country the fullest information as to the existing state of affairs. We have forborne, for a long period, to put any question to the Government which might, in the slightest degree; have embarrassed them during the late negotiations; but, inasmuch as we have been given to understand that these negotiations at Vienna have altogether terminated—that all hopes of peace are now at an end—and that Her Majesty's Plenipotentiary has returned to this country—we certainly did expect that the Government would have felt it their duty, without question from any noble Lord on this side of the House, to make a statement in both Houses of the actual state of affairs—the nature of the propositions which have been made, and the nature of the replies given to them—the result of the propositions, and why they were refused. I do not see the noble Earl (the Earl of Clarendon) in his place.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My noble Friend has been summoned within the last quarter of an hour to attend Her Majesty.
THE EARL OF DERBY: I wish to ask whether it is the intention of the Government to make a statement of the present posture of affairs and of the negotiations which have taken place—of the statements which have been made, and the language held both by the Allied Powers and by Austria, as well as the character of the answers given by Russia. I wish to ask whether it is the intention of the Government to lay before both Houses the various
1948
protocols, and whether, in short, we shall have a statement of the views of the Government as to our present national position in the very critical state of foreign affairs, and the threatening aspect of the peace of the world?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My noble Friend, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, has been in the House until within the last five minutes, when he was sent for to attend Her Majesty, and he is now in attendance upon Her Majesty. Had he been here, he would, my Lords, have been prepared to give an answer to the questions which have been put by the noble Earl opposite; but I may say that it is the intention of the Government, at the earliest possible period, to lay a full account of what has taken place before Parliament. No doubt a full account will be given, though I am not prepared to state the exact day; but perhaps to-morrow my noble Friend will be able to name a day.
House adjourned till To-morrow.