Lords Sitting of 11 May 1854

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Earl of Sea-field.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Militia.
2a Exchequer Bills (£16,024,100); Episcopal and Capitular Estates Management, 1854.
3a Church Building Acts Continuance.

JUVENILE CRIMINALS—REFORMATORY SCHOOLS.
EARL EITZWILLIAM presented a petition from justices of the peace of the West Riding of Yorkshire and from Swansea, praying that reformatory institutions may be established for the reformation of juvenile offenders.
LORD BROUGHAMentirely agreed in the opinion that they should make every effort for the purpose of improving the system of secondary punishment, and, above all, of improving it by means of these reformatory schools. He had mentioned lately that he bad deemed it his duty, during a late visit to a neighbouring nation, to repair to Tours for the express purpose of examining that most important institution, the reformatory establishment at Mettray. He had heard it stated in France that the establishment at Mettray was the original of these excellent institutions; but that was not so, because nineteen years before the establishment of the institution at Mettray in the year 1839, namely, in the year 1820, an establishment was formed at Stretton-on-Dunmore, in the county of Warwick. He would not say that it had succeeded so well as the Mettray system had succeeded, because Mettray was established after the experience of the English establishment, and its originators had benefited by that experience, as well as by the results of a similar experiment which had been made with more or less success in the neighbourhood of Hamburg; but it was impossible to deny that the amount of the relapses was less considerable there than they had been on an average of years at Stretton-on-Dunmore. He never saw anything in

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such a state of order as the establishment at Mettray was, when he had an opportunity of seeing it, and when he examined that school. The whole proceedings of every individual from the moment he enters until he leaves the establishment are registered. An accurate account is kept of his conduct and of his misdemeanors, more or less slight—and most of them are very slight; of the rewards he has received, and the punishment, extremely slight and well contrived, to which he is subjected; and on his leaving the establishment a watch is continued to be kept on the place where he is hired (it is chiefly an agricultural establishment), with the farmers and gardeners in the neighbourhood; so that the returns year after year tell precisely the whole effect of the system of discipline, and not only of discipline, but of kindly and patriarchal management, by which these persons had been dealt with. The plan adopted was to divide the whole of the inmates into families, each being under a chief, who had in most instances been educated in the place, and the persons composing the staff of officers had been taught the system by years of experience on the spot. He regretted to hear that the Strett-on-on-Dunmore establishment had, within the last six weeks, come to an end from the want of funds. It had been supported during the whole period of its successful existence of forty years entirely by voluntary contributions, no aid whatever having been given by Government, or by any public body, and it had now come to an end—he was sorry and ashamed to say—entirely from the want of funds. Funds for the Mettray establishment, and similar ones in France, no doubt were furnished by private individuals; but very large contributions were made to them—without which they must have failed, as well as others—by the enlightened wisdom of the French Government.
EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid, he took it for granted that if reformatory schools should be established, the expenses would be paid out of the public funds; and then came the very important question, whether they should be maintained out of the national funds or out of the funds of the county in which they should be established. He apprehended that they would not be complying with the wishes of the petitioners unless some public fund was appropriated for the maintenance of such establishments.
Petitions to lie on the table.

THE WAR WITH RUSSIA—QUESTIONS—

  TRANSPORT OF TROOPS—LAND CARRIAGE.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, I gave notice some days ago to the noble Duke the Secretary of War that I should take an opportunity of putting to him some questions of considerable importance with regard to the army now employed in Turkey. The first of these questions relates to the transport of troops to Turkey. The House of Commons, a few days ago, voted a sum of not less than 3,096,000 l. for that purpose. That appears to me, my Lords, a startling sum; and I must say that, at the commencement, as we now are, of a very expensive, a very difficult, and, I fear, a very long war, it appears to me to be our bounden duty to look most closely into all the details of the expenditure from the very commencement. If we early pay a bill, large as it is, without looking into its details, we shall soon come into difficulty, and there will be a general reluctance on the part of the people to prosecute a war that is so expensively and perhaps so recklessly conducted. I have seen that the expenditure for transport of troops is 3,096,000 l.; and as far as I can gather from what has been stated in another place by a Minister of the Crown, we have already sent 25,000 troops, and I believe the total number to be sent is 27,000, and, as far as I can calculate, the number of horses for cavalry and artillery will be about 5,000. Now, my Lords, the expense for which any lady or gentleman can proceed to India, round the Cape of Good Hope, with every possible comfort, is about 100 l.; so that, if every individual soldier had been sent to Turkey at the same rate of expenditure at which a lady or gentleman could proceed to India, the expense would have been 2,700,000 l. I find, also, that the expense of sending a gentleman's horse to India, without any additional charge for attendance—which in this case would not be incurred, as there is a soldier to every horse—is 50 l.; so that, if all these horses had been sent to India round the Cape, the expense would have been 250,000 l.; consequently, the whole expense of sending these horses and these ladies and gentlemen round the Cape to India would have been 2,950,000 l.—that is, it would have been less by 146,000 l. than the amount of cost of sending these 27,000 men and 5,000 horses to Turkey. My Lords, I thought, in considering this subject, that it was ad-

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  visible to look back to what had been the expenditure under the head of transport in former times, and I selected, as the most convenient time to refer to, the year 1808, a year in which great expenditure occurred on account of the war in the Peninsula. In that year, when it must be remembered that there was a depreciation in the currency of nearly 18 per cent, what was the expenditure? I find that in that year the whole charge for transport was 2,900,000 l., but that included a sum of 800,000 l. for the maintenance of prisoners of war; so that the whole sum, including the depreciation to which I have referred, was 2,100,000 l.—that is to say, very nearly 1,000,000 l. less than the sum asked for to pay the transport expenses of the present year. Now, my Lords, we have been told that never had exertions so great been made as at the present moment, and I thought it as well to look back to the year 1808 to see what took place then. I find that in that year the troops which were sent from this country greatly exceeded in number the force which has now been put in motion for service in Turkey. I find that in that year, at an early period of the year, 10,000 men were transported to Sweden; at a later period 5,000 men were despatched to Gibraltar, and by the close of the year the number of men sent to the Peninsula amounted to 49,000. In addition to that force there were also 6,696 horses; so that there were nearly 1,700 horses and 22,000 men more sent to the Peninsula than we have now sent to Turkey; and yet the expense of transport in that year was nearly 1,000,000 l. less than in the present year. My Lords, I must say that it is necessary to make some deduction from the charge for transports for the present year, because I think that there are charges under that head which were not paid by the transport department in the year 1808. I have selected a few items, amounting to 293,000 l., which ought to be deducted on that account, including 160,000 l. for coals for the engines, which of course could not occur in the year 1808; and after that deduction I find that the total charge for the present year is above 2,800,000 l. I have already stated that the charge in 1808, after deducting the amount required for the maintenance of prisoners of war, was 2,100,000 l.; so that the real difference is 700,000 l.; and, if to this I add the sum of 468,000 l. on account of the depreciation of the currency 18 per cent, the practical difference becomes 1,168,000 l. I think, my
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  Lords, that this statement is not suggestive of any blame to the Government, or to any officer of the Government, but that it justifies me in asking for some explanation of the items of which that large sum is composed. My Lords, I may mention one circumstance which fell under my own knowledge, and which induces me to think that the detention of transport ships may have some effect upon the great bulk of this charge. On the 8th of March I went on board two transport vessels, and on inquiring how long they had been engaged, I found that they had been engaged from ten days to a fortnight, and that they were ready to receive troops in three days. This was on the 8th March, and they sailed about the 8th of April; so that an additional expenditure had been incurred by the detention of those vessels—in the case of one of them of 1,800 l., in the case of the other, of 1,350 l. These were only two vessels; and there are a great number, for, as your Lordships are aware, the cavalry is only now on the point of sailing, while the ships necessary for their transport have been in the hands of the Government for a considerable period. There is another matter of a totally distinct nature about which I also wish to put a question to my noble Friend—and that is, I wish to ask him in what manner it is proposed by Government to pay the troops now serving in Turkey? I have made such inquiries as I could with regard to the currency in Turkey, and I have ascertained that that currency is depreciated 82½ per cent, that the silver currency is only copper washed with silver, and that the copper is visible at the edges of the coin and on the inscription. That currency is undergoing still greater depreciation, and the sovereign which in January was worth 125 piastres, is now, I understand, worth 150 piastres. It is, therefore, quite impossible that Government can pay the troops in the currency of the country. I understand that at Malta and at Corfu the troops are paid in the currency of England; but there is a difficulty in Turkey connected with our currency which does not exist at Malta or Corfu. The English soldier may have shillings, and the French soldier may have francs worth one-sixth less than our shillings; but the English coin meeting the French coin in the market will hardly obtain the value of this difference in exchange. It may be advisable to coin tenpenny pieces, nearly equivalent to the franc, to avoid this loss; but in Turkey the

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  larger the coin with which the soldier goes into the market the larger will be the loss, from the demand for small coin which he must have to make his purchases with. I should propose enabling the soldiers to go into the market with a still smaller currency more nearly resembling the silver coin of twopence; and it would be desirable, I think, to strike a number of those coins and distribute them, because they would nearly correspond with the current value of the piastre. I will venture to mention to your Lordships that in the Indian army there is in almost every regiment a person whose duty it is to change rupees into pice—the rupee contains sixty-four pice, and he is permitted to give sixty-three pice. It is found practically to be of great convenience; and I apprehend that the Government would do well to consider whether they cannot in some manner give the English troops in Turkey the same advantage as that possessed by the troops in India from this arrangement. They need not employ natives in this matter; their whole staff need not extend beyond the regimental paymaster; and I see no reason why arrangements could not be made through the Commissariat, which would place the paymaster in a position that would enable him to make the rate of exchange more favourable than the soldier could otherwise obtain. If the paymaster were enabled to pay the soldiers in small silver coin, they would at the same time afford them an opportunity of changing the small silver coin for the current coin of the country. This arrangement is sustained by its uniformly satisfactory practice in India. I am aware that what I am suggesting is not in accordance with the rules of political economy, and that it interferes with individual enterprise and fair competition in the market; but I am satisfied that the individual enterprises of the Armenian shoof would be too strong for the individual ignorance of the troops. The soldiers would be cheated, and would become exceedingly angry, and the result of that anger might be, that blows would be introduced into the currency of the market, and exercise a considerable influence on the price of commodities, while the coin on the other side might be knives and stilettos. These are inconveniences which ought not to exist, and I recommend my noble Friend (the Duke of Newcastle) to take the matter into serious consideration. There is one other point to which I wish to call the attention of the noble Duke. I desire to
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  know what measures have been adopted to afford the means of moving the army in Turkey? My Lords, I see by the public press that it is a common error in this country to suppose that the moment these troops are landed with their cavalry and artillery, the officer in command can move them wherever he pleases, or wherever the exigencies of the service may require. There cannot be a more grievous error. I do not state this upon my own authority, but I will take the liberty of reading to your Lordships an extract from a letter which I received about twenty-five years ago from the late Duke of Wellington, and which referred particularly to the condition of the Russian army in Turkey in the campaign then in course of progress. I had written to the Duke to ask him to be good enough to state his views as to the best mode of conducting any future war in Burmah in which this country might be engaged. The Duke in his reply pointed out the cause of the vast expense of war beyond sea as being the transport of animals, without which it was impossible to move an army, and he pointed out the great advantage the Russians then had in being able to transport troops by sea within a short distance of Constantinople; but that those troops could not move for want of animals and were thus useless. Now, it is, of course, impossible for me to judge what may be the amount of our force in Turkey which may be employed in operations inland, and what part may be required for garrison duty at Gallipoli or Constantinople, or for operations upon the shores of the Black Sea. That, of course, rests entirely with Her Majesty's Government to decide; but I will say, that even where our troops are in garrison, as they may be considered to be at Gallipoli, even there some animals are required for the purpose of alleviating the labour of the troops, for the purpose of enabling them to bring stores, ammunition, provisions—everything they require for the service—from the shore, which is at a distance, I understand, of nearly seven miles from the camp. More than that; if troops are to be removed by sea to any point upon the shores of the Black Sea, even there animals will be required; for that force, when thrown on shore for the purpose, it may be, of besieging a fortress must land heavy guns—must bring up all its provisions from the beach—all its stores and matériel. In former times no provision—or, at all events, very inadequate provision—was made for the purpose of enabling

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  our expeditions to have the advantage of the use of animals with which to make these necessary movements. Seamen and marines—especially seamen—were employed to a very great extent. It has necessarily very much disheartened these men to have to draw all these heavy guns and stores to, frequently, a considerable distance. They have, however, done that duty zealously and well, and would do it again, no doubt; but it must be recollected that while on shore the efficiency of the fleet, which may be suddenly called into action, is diminished by their absence, and also that these operations are conducted much more slowly than if the men had the advantage of animals; and the noble Duke opposite knows perfectly well that time, in an operation of this kind, is essential to success. Again, in any operation intended to be carried on along the shores of the Black Sea a very considerable number of animals would be required (besides those for the use of the artillery) for the purpose of facilitating the movements of the troops. If these animals were to be shoved out of the ship, and made to swim ashore through the surf as best they could, and if there was no hope of re-embarking any one of them, I still think it would be no less important that they should be made use of. It must be generally admitted, I think, that it will be impossible for any very large proportion of the force to be employed in mere garrison duty. At least some portion of our expeditionary force will be employed in the interior, and it is to be considered what number of animals is absolutely necessary for the purpose of enabling that force to move in a way to execute any operation required from it. I have no doubt that I may be supposed to entertain very extravagant views with regard to the difficulty of moving an army. It is generally understood that in India the baggage attending an army is unduly and unnecessarily large. But some few years ago a great general—Sir Charles Napier—went to India. He was perfectly aware of all the embarrassments which arose out of the enormous amount of baggage, and he set himself to reform that abuse. Sir Charles Napier has given to the world his reasoning upon the subject, and the amount of baggage which he considers absolutely necessary; and, without presuming to offer any opinion of my own upon the subject, I will state to your Lordships what amount of baggage he considers absolutely necessary. Now, his calculation was founded
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  upon the supposition that the army was a combined army of Natives and Europeans; but an army of that description requires a very much smaller amount of baggage than an army composed altogether of Europeans. Sir Charles Napier states distinctly that upon an average—of course the amount would vary according to circumstances—but, upon an average, there should be one camel to every two men. One camel was to be reckoned in the calculation as about equal to two horses; and therefore, if we are to move 15,000 men in the East, we shall require 15,000 animals. But, beyond this, Sir Charles Napier distinctly states that there ought to be a reserve of 30 per cent for contingencies; and any one who has seen the number of animals that are left upon the road upon even a comparatively short march must be of opinion that such a reserve is absolutely necessary. If, therefore, we are to move 15,000 men in any operation, we thus require 19,500 animals to enable that army to move, even upon the low and most economical calculation made by Sir Charles Napier. And then, it must be recollected that in Turkey—a country which very much resembles some parts of India—it will be necessary that the army, when engaged in operations in the interior, should move with at least fifteen days' provisions. This would require a still larger number of animals; and therefore it becomes a consideration of the greatest possible importance, for, unless sufficient means of carriage be furnished to the general, he has not any means of executing the great operations of war. I have thought it right to say this in justice to the officer in command in the East, and to the troops employed there; because, unless these means of carriage be supplied, they cannot be expected to act with that vigour and efficiency which would be desirable. The question I have to ask my noble Friend (the Duke of Newcastle) upon this subject is—what measures have been adopted for the purpose of furnishing the Army with these means of land carriage?
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE: My Lords, I can assure your Lordships, and my noble Friend in particular, that there is no indisposition on the part of the Government, or on my part, to give to my noble Friend, and to the House, any information we possess, provided we can do so consistently with our regard for the public service; at the same time nobody knows better than the noble Earl that it is im-

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  possible for any person, except those immediately concerned in carrying on those affairs, to know what information can be given with safety, and what information ought not to be given. Now, as an instance—before I proceed to answer the other questions put by my noble Friend—with regard to this very question of the means at our command for the movement of troops, I can assure my noble Friend that, under certain circumstances, to answer that question in the only way an English Minister can answer—that is, with entire truth—might be giving a very great advantage to the enemy, while it would effect no good in this country. Suppose that, for the purpose of carrying on the war, adequate provision had been made for the movement of troops by land, and inadequate provision made for their movement by water, or vice versâ that inadequate provision had been made for the movement of the troops by land, while adequate provision had been made by water—would not the fact announced in this House, however great the certainty of the mistake being corrected, and the deficiency supplied, within the next month or six weeks—would not, I say, the knowledge of that fact be of the most essential importance to the enemy, as proving what operations we could undertake, and what operations we could not undertake, and enable them to provide their measures accordingly? I only say this, in reference to the inconvenience sometimes of putting questions of this kind, and in anticipation of my inability or objection on other occasions to answer them. That inability, as regards this particular question, does not exist on the present occasion, and it is for that reason that I have given the instance which I have just presented to your Lordships. I shall now proceed to give to my noble Friend such information as I can, and shall take the questions in the order in which he put them. The first question the noble Earl put was, whether I am prepared to lay upon the table of the House the details of the Estimates which have been lately voted by the House of Commons for the transport of the troops from this country to Turkey. My noble Friend said, with great justice, that the sum was a formidably large one, and that it required explanation. Now, as a matter of account, the Members of the Government will undoubtedly be bound to give a full and entire account of the manner in
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  which any money is disbursed which is voted by the House of Commons for the furtherance of this war; and as a matter of account, I can assure the noble Earl that no difficulty will be thrown in the way at the proper time for this information being given. But my noble Friend seems to forget, when he asks for an account of those sums, that this money has not been already expended, that the transports for this service have not already been paid for, that the whole proceeding is now in course of progress, and that the greatest possible practical inconvenience might arise from giving details which would enable those with whom the Government are in negotiation to deal more advantageously for themselves, but less advantageously to the public, than they can do at the present moment. A great part of the sum is only a matter of estimate; and with regard to those parts that could be considered more in the light of accounts, so great was the haste with which the Government had to take up a number of those ships, that it was impossible in some instances to come to an actual arrangement with the parties as to the sum that should be paid to them; and they, to meet the wishes of the Government that no time should be lost, consented, if any difficulty should arise, that the matter should be settled by arbitration. That is one case; as to another case, three-fourths of the amount have been paid, and one-fourth of the amount has been held back on account of some dispute that has arisen, and which is not yet decided. Therefore it is impossible to give my noble Friend such details as he requires, or attempt to give him any greater details than have already satisfied the House of Commons. I think my noble Friend will see that, being, as we are at this moment, in the market to deal with the persons possessing these vessels for the transport of troops, we should be neglecting the interest of the public service if we gave the details for which my noble Friend calls. I readily admit that the sum asked for is a formidably large one; but if he contrasts the expense with a former period, he should state it as the expense for conveying, not 27,000 troops, but 30,000 troops, as the truth is. My noble Friend contrasts the cost of conveying 27,000 troops to Turkey with the cost of conveying 27,000 ladies and gentlemen to India—and says that the cost for the conveyance of troops is greater than in the other

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  case. But I think his argument entirely fails. The noble Earl must bear in mind that these ladies and gentlemen who go to India round the Cape do not carry with them many thousand tons of ammunition and other articles which are required in the transport of troops. Again, another most important consideration is, that the vessels which convey ordinary passengers to India return to this country laden with return freight; but these transports, engaged for the conveyance of the troops to the East, in the great majority of instances have not been taken up by the voyage (in which case the expense to the Government would have been materially reduced), but they have been taken up for a period of twelve months; and the Estimates had to be based on the supposition that the vessels would be required for the whole of that time. Thus, my noble Friend will see that the comparison he has made falls at once to the ground, under the circumstances to which I have referred. The noble Earl said that he was led to form a had opinion of the mode in which these affairs have been conducted, and of the lavish expenditure incurred upon them, by facts that he had personally witnessed, with reference to the detention of two vessels—the Lord Palmerston and the Tonning—which he had seen at Woolwich; and he said that he was afraid the cavalry transports stood in the same category, having been taken up for many weeks, and yet only putting to sea at this moment. Now this is certainly the fact; but the Government will not have to pay for the delay—because the detention of these transports was not owing to the fault of the Government or the cavalry officers and troops, but rested with the contractors who provided the vessels. Although, undoubtedly, the ships had been taken up many weeks ago, the contracts had not been fulfilled; and this arises, I admit, from many circumstances which involve scarcely any blame on the part of the contractors. They have had many difficulties to contend with—such as the strike among the carpenters and other artisans by whom the vessels were to be fitted up, and the desertion of the sailors for the purpose either of enlisting on board the fleet, or of seeking employment in the merchant service—perhaps in ships bound to. Australia, attracted by the higher wages offered to them. All these circumstances mitigated any culpability that might attach to the contractors; but I must repeat, that it has been the
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  fault of those engaged to supply the ships, and not of the Government, that these horse transports have not sailed from this country many weeks ago. With regard to the Lord Palmerston sailing transport, to which my noble Friend adverted, that vessel took out the first detachment of artillery. It was detained from causes which it is not necessary to mention, and by the direction of the Government, for two or three days, but not longer; and that is the only instance of a sailing transport engaged to convey cavalry or artillery being detained one hour in their departure by the orders of the Government, or by any laches on the part of the military authorities. As regarded the other vessel mentioned by my noble Friend, the Tonning steamer, it took out a portion of the staff and part of a body of troops, who were conveyed to Turkey in three steam-ships. The receipt of the convention with Turkey in reference to the landing of English troops in Turkey was expected whilst this portion were under orders to sail, and they were detained a week or nine days waiting for its arrival after the vessel was ready to sail, so that as regards them, I think, some demurrage will have to be paid. But as respects the remainder of the vessels, the delay was occasioned in consequence of the inability of the contractors to prepare them for sea, and not from any fault on the part of the Government or the military authorities, or of the officers and men of the regiments that were ordered away.
  With reference to the second question of my noble Friend, as to the currency in which the troops in Turkey are to be paid—he is no doubt aware that there is a standing rule of the Commissariat Department; on occasion of any expedition of this sort, a general order is issued fixing the standard of the army pay, which, of course, is regulated by the intrinsic value of English coin, and its proportion to the coin of the country to which the troops are about to be embarked. With reference to the particular currency, he is no doubt aware that for a very long period the currency of the eastern shores of the Mediterranean has been almost entirely carried on in the colonnado, or pillar dollar. The diminution of this currency has of late years been very great, and even four or five years ago it was to a great extent disappearing, and the ordinary sovereign of this country to a considerable degree has taken its place in many

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  parts of the Levant, and of course more especially so in those most frequented by British subjects. The entire supercession of the colonnado by the English sovereign has been accelerated, I believe, by the enormous drain of the former coin to China. Under these circumstances, it was felt to be desirable that the basis of the currency in which the troops should be paid should be the English sovereign, and, therefore, an arrangement has been at once made for sending a supply of that coin from this country. I believe that 225,000 English sovereigns have been sent to the Commissariat Department accordingly, and 5,000 l. of English silver—the latter more as an experiment, in the direction which my noble Friend has suggested, than from any practical necessity at the present moment. This is meant as a temporary arrangement until the effect of the experiment has been ascertained; and inasmuch as the troops cannot be regularly paid in English sovereigns, it will be absolutely necessary that they should be paid in the current coin of the country where they were stationed. I am aware that my noble Friend has previously made the suggestions on this subject which he has thrown out this evening to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, I have to thank him for so doing. I think there is a great deal that is very valuable in his suggestions, and therefore we have transmitted a copy of them to the Commissariat in Turkey, accompanied with a desire that they should report how far it would be possible to carry them out, and whether any difficulty attaches to the plan originally devised for paying all the accounts in English sovereigns and in the coin current in the country, fixed in its proportion to the value of the sovereign.
  The last question put by my noble Friend was with respect to that point which I have already touched at the commencement of my observations, namely, the means of moving our troops. My Lords, I can assure my noble Friend—admitting to the full extent all that he has said, based on the great experience and information he has obtained by his attention to these subjects—that this matter has not been neglected, nor was it overlooked at the commencement of this expedition. Orders were sent out long before any troops embarked from this country to the Commissariat officers, who were early despatched to Turkey, instructing them to make in-
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  quiries in all directions as to the means of obtaining animals for carriage, and authorising them to make provisional contracts for purposes of transport. We, as long ago as the month of March—I forget now the exact day—had a report from one of the Commissariat officers, who stated that he had been more successful in this respect than he had at first anticipated; and every subsequent report received in this country leads us to expect that, although the means of transport in Turkey are not so good as might be obtained in other countries, there will be sufficient in point of quantity, and that there certainly will not be the difficulty originally apprehended. With the single exception of a very small transport corps organised in this country, the whole of the remainder will for the present be conducted by Turkish subjects, assisted by the Turkish Government; and only this morning a letter was received from a Commissariat officer, dated the 29th April last, in which appear these
  words:—"The Turkish Government acts with good faith and loyalty towards us in matters relating to transport and supplies." All the other accounts agree in entertaining a hope that the supply of transport will be sufficient, and every means are taken to provide the troops with baggage horses, which are abundant, and baggage mules, which are much less abundant and more expensive, and also with baggage waggons. On the other hand, as I have already explained to my noble Friend, we are also provided with transports for the conveyance of troops by sea. We have at our disposal permanently in those seas transports for an amount of force equal to at least 30,000 men, without encroaching on the resources possessed by our ships of war for carrying out effectually any operations which they may undertake. I hope, therefore, that my noble Friend will feel satisfied that all these important matters have not been neglected. As regards other points, I am not able to give him now the estimates for which he asks; but I can assure him that we shall have no hesitation, at the proper time, and consistently with the interests of the public service, to satisfy Parliament and the country as to the mode in which we have expended the money that has been so liberally voted by the House of Commons.
  I have thus far been answering questions that have been asked. Before sitting down, I will just mention—although no question has been asked with respect to it—that I have had an intimation from noble

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  Lords that in some quarters there is an apprehension that the state of the health of the troops at Gallipoli is such as to cause considerable anxiety. I am happy to state that it is in my power to give the most positive contradiction to any such statements. The number of British troops at Gallipoli is 5,300 men; and out of this force, by a letter I have received, dated the 25th of April, I find that there were only twelve men sick; and by another letter, dated the 30th of April, and received this morning, there were only twenty men sick. Such a small proportion of invalids in a force of 5,300 men is hardly to be found in the records of any army in the field, or even in the records of this country itself. I have thought it necessary to make this statement to your Lordships, in order to correct misapprehension.
  THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid, as the noble Duke had alluded to the health of the troops, he wished to say a word respecting the comfort of the wounded. He saw that the Government had devoted attention to providing waggons for a travelling hospital. He had no doubt that in passing over good macadamised roads these waggons would cause the least possible aggravation of the sufferings of the wounded; but as the troops would have to go up rocks and rugged bill country, it would be impossible that these waggons could follow them. Unless coolies were employed for the assistance of the wounded, they might depend upon it that men who had been injured would be left to die on the field of battle, and many others would have their sufferings increased.
  THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he should be sorry if there were any misapprehension on this subject. Great pains had been taken in organising an ambulance establishment on the most approved system, and this was the first time that such a provision had been made for an English army. It was quite possible that in many parts of Turkey these waggons would not be available for the conveyance of the wounded; but at the same time it had been thought desirable to send them out, in order that they might be useful where the roads were fit for them. This part of the arrangements would not interfere with the employment of any other means of conveyance where waggons should be found impracticable; and certainly whatever fault might be found with their other measures, the medical and hospital departments had been most effectually provided.
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  The staff of surgeons and the supply of medical appliances of every kind had been on the largest scale—larger than in any former war—and no pains, care, or cost would be spared to secure the fullest and most effectual provision for our wounded or sick soldiers.

  THE WAR WITH RUSSIA—QUESTION—

    BOMBARDMENT OF ODESSA.
    THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he wished to ask the noble Duke whether Her Majesty's Government had received from the Admiral in the Black Sea any official account of the bombardment of Odessa; and, if so, what steps they would take for conveying the details of the operations to the public? He also desired to ask, with regard to the proceedings of the war generally, what course the Government intended to take in regard to the early communication to the public of the successive events as the information should reach the Government itself. The public anxiety as to such matters would be still greater in this war than in former wars, for now, while by means of the telegraphic despatch almost instantaneous communication would be made to this country of the occurrence of an action in any given place, no details could be expected through the same medium as to the numbers, and still less as to the names of the killed and wounded, details which, in former wars, accompanied the notification of the action itself. The anxiety of the public, or, at all events, of that portion of the public who had relatives and friends engaged in the war, would be in the highest degree increased by the intimation of an action having been fought, unaccompanied by a statement of the casualties occasioned; and it was, therefore, most expedient that, without waiting for the ordinary Gazette, the fullest information that Government should from time to time receive should forthwith be published, if necessary, in an extraordinary Gazette.
    THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE: Despatches have been received this day from Admiral Dundas, narrating the bombardment of Odessa, the first announcement of which was made in this House a few days ago by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Your Lordships are already in possession, through the newspapers, of all the details which are given in the despatches of Admiral Dundas, and I believe I should be wasting your Lordships' time if I were to read the cir-

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    cumstances narrated in those despatches. At the same time, I think I ought to mention to your Lordships that this despatch and its inclosures give a most positive and satisfactory denial to the statements which have been put forth relative to this affair in behalf of the Russian Government. From the despatch and its inclosures it clearly appears that our flag of truce was most undoubtedly fired upon by the batteries of Odessa; and when the account of that outrage and violation of the law of nations was conveyed to Admiral Dundas, Admiral Dundas was not satisfied in a case of that kind, with the reports of the captain and crew, however conclusive these reports might be to his own mind, but he took information from another person who was present on the Mole of Odessa when the gun was shotted and fired by the Russians. This fact is stated in the despatch; and on the receipt of this information, Admiral Dundas wrote to General Osten-Sacken, the General Commandant of Odessa, informing him that his excuse was found to be destitute of foundation, and, as a reparation for the insult offered to the flag of truce, he demanded the surrender of all the English, French, and Russian ships in that port, allowing a certain time for the Russian General to return either an assent or a refusal to the summons. No answer having been received, the Admirals took the course, the circumstances and consequences of which have been correctly related in the newspapers. I am happy to add to that statement, that the loss on the part of the English fleet was only one man killed and ten wounded, most of them slightly. As to the second question of the noble Earl, I have to state that the Government will publish the despatches through the Gazette to-morrow, and that will be the means in future of acquainting the public from time to time of the events of the war, as the Government receives its intelligence. I can also assure the noble Earl, that in all cases of important events, the Government, having a full appreciation of the interest and anxiety of the public, will not wait for the usual day for publishing the Gazette, but a supplemental Gazette will in such cases be instantly issued.
    THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, that he understood the noble Duke to state that the accounts in the newspapers of this event were correct. Now it appeared from the newspapers that the chief cause of the attack on Odessa was the
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    violation of the flag of truce. If that were so, he thought no punishment too strong to avenge such an act of barbarism. But would the Admiral have been entirely justified in attacking Odessa from the moment war was declared; or were they to infer that the orders to the Admiral were such, that if this outrage had not been offered to the flag of truce, he would not have been justified in attacking Odessa and the shipping there as he did? The general impression was, that the Admiral made this outrage the prime reason for bombarding the port; and it was desirable that that point should be cleared up.
    THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE: I think the noble Earl is trespassing somewhat beyond the well-recognised rule in such cases, in calling upon me to explain what were the instructions given to the Admiral with regard to these transactions. The noble Earl must see that the instructions given to the Admiral will not bear merely upon this particular operation, but upon any others that may yet take place; and I must therefore decline to disclose what those instructions are. I can, however, assure the noble Earl and this House, that it is the strong feeling and desire of the Government that in the conduct of this war private and neutral property should be, as far as possible, respected, and that as little destruction should be caused to that property as is consistent with the effective carrying on of the operations.
    THE EARL OF DESARTsaid, there could be no second opinion as to the great credit the operations at Odessa reflected on all the officers concerned.

    EPISCOPAL AND CAPITULAR ESTATES MANAGEMENT, 1854, BILL.
    Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
    Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
    THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, there was one provision in this measure savouring of the principle of the Bill, to which he had an objection. In the Bill which this was intended to be a continuance of, it was provided, that if a reversion of tithes, or land in lieu of tithes, were to be sold, as a previous condition of such sale, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners should be required to take the present spiritual wants of the district into consideration. Now, by the present Bill, this condition, which operated in the nature of a safeguard for the claims of particular localities in regard to spiritual instruction, was altogether

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    omitted; and on that ground he objected to the measure in its present shape. In Committee he should take measures to remedy this great defect.
    THE EARL OF POWISsaid, that in his opinion the House should have in the first instance full information as to the action of the Church Commission—what they had been about, what the result of their proceedings had been, how they had expended the immense sums that had been placed at their disposal, and whether the calculations on which they had acted in the distribution of ecclesiastical revenues had proved correct. Since 1837 vast quantities of property had been sold under the Act. From 1837 to 1840 episcopal property alone was dealt with, but from 1840 to 1850, under the Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues Bill, a large amount of augmentation had been given out of capitular property to the poorer benefices. The Commissioners had received power to borrow 600,000 l. from Queen Anne's Bounty fund, to be consumed in twenty years, in the expectation that by the end of that time the leases would become so much more valuable as to enable them to repay it, interest and capital, as well as to meet their grants to poor livings. From that time to this, however, not a single intelligible statement had been made as to whether their calculations were real or whether they were fallacious. By the account of last year the Commission had expended 9,500 l. more than their annual income; the sum of 10,000 l. being originally stated as the utmost limit, which they could not overpass. The episcopal portion of the accounts, which was formerly favourable, was now unfavourable; that was to say, the amount paid to the smaller sees was nearly 10,000 l. a year more than was received from the larger ones. He found that in conformity with a promise which had been made when he brought the subject forward last Session, there was, in the accounts of the present year, some attempt to make a distinction between revenue and capital; but he complained that in respect of the whole of the transactions from the year 1837 to the year 1853, not only had no information been given, but there was not even the vestige of an attempt to give it. The result was, that the House must be in perfect ignorance whether the Commissioners had made an a extravagant amount of annual grants and incurred ex-travagant annual liabilities, or were acting within that prudent margin of 10,000 l. a
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    year, which was the professed basis of their operations when Parliament allowed them to borrow that sum of money. Moreover, it was utterly impossible in these accounts to distinguish the income from the capital. If, therefore, the powers of the Church Estates Commission—against which, abstractedly, he had no objection—were to be renewed, be thought that an understanding should be first come to for submitting proper and decent accounts to Parliament in future. He might be told that it was a difficult thing in this case to distinguish revenue from capital. But if that were so, surely it was high time that the difficulty should be grappled with and mastered, and that they should not go on in this hand-to-mouth manner, utterly unable to determine whether their expenditure was justified or not, There was no reason, with which he was acquainted, why these accounts should not be given in such a shape that Parliament might be able at once to see whether the Commissioners had or had not incurred an amount of liabilities which was disproportionate to the means at their disposal. This system of grants and consumption of capital bad gone on for seventeen years, and he defied any one to ascertain from the accounts submitted to the House whether, at this moment, Church property was better or worse to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounds than it was when the account began. Not being aware that the Bill was to come on for second reading today, he was unprepared to enter upon details. But having endeavoured to form some idea of the prudence of the transactions in which the Commissioners had been engaged, he could venture to assert that their accounts were utterly defective, that they did not furnish the information which Parliament was entitled to have, and would not enable one to form an opinion as to the accuracy of the principles or calculations upon which their proceedings were conducted; and he trusted that the Government, in continuing the Estates Commission, would give Parliament some security that more specific and intelligible accounts should in future years be laid upon the table.
    THE EARL OF CHICHESTERwas understood, to say, that for a considerable number of years the Church Estates Commission had incurred no expenditure for grants except such as were obligatory under Acts of Parliament; but that calculations which had been made justified the hope that in a few years the Commissioners

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    would be able to resume the making of grants. He to a great extent agreed with the noble Earl (Earl Powis) that the kind of account to which he referred would be a useful document; but he denied that fuller accounts could be published. The accounts now published were as complete as they could be, though they were not on the plan desired by his noble Friend. That plan, if adopted, might not be so satisfactory to the House as it would be to his noble Friend, and he had rather therefore pause before altering the present system.
    On Question, agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

    UNAUTHORISED NEGOTIATIONS BILL.
    LORD CAMPBELL,in naming the Select Committee on this Bill, said, that he had not the most distant intention that the Bill should interfere with the enforcement of the private rights of any portion of Her Majesty's subjects. It was intended by the Bill, as originally framed, to prevent such deputations as that to Florence upon the case of the Madiai. His own opinion was, that such a proceeding was not in the exercise of any constitutional right, that it was not, generally speaking, calculated to gain its object, and that with regard to the great Powers of Europe, it might be attended with inconvenient results. After hearing the opinions which had been expressed by noble Lords for whom he had a sincere respect, particularly by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Shaftesbury), he would willingly abandon that part of the Bill which applied to such cases, and would consent that the operation of his measure should be confined to such deputations as should seek to attain objects injurious to the British empire, where there should be an intention to thwart the measures of the Government, or to do that which would be productive of inconvenience to the public service. With that restriction he hoped that the Bill would meet the approval of their Lordships.
    THE EARL OF CLANCARTYwished to know if the Bill would apply to such a deputation as had recently proceeded to St. Petersburg from the Quakers of this country.
    LORD CAMPBELLsaid, the Bill, in its restricted form, would not apply to such a deputation as that which had recently proceeded from the Quakers of this country to the Emperor of Russia. Although he con-
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    sidered the tendency of such deputations to be very injurious, he believed the intentions of the particular deputation to which he referred were perfectly harmless, and such deputations would not be prevented for the future. The Bill would only apply to such cases as that of Mr. Smith O'Brien, or that of the deputations which went to France in 1791, where there was an intention to carry out views prejudicial to the interests of this country.
    LORD BEAUMONTwished to know what was left in the Bill, now that the noble and learned Lord proposed that it should not apply to persons, who, though their proceedings might be injurious to the country, had no evil intentions. It appeared to him that the Bill with the modifications proposed by the noble and learned Lord, would apply only to the case of persons who were engaged in conspiracies with foreign Powers against this country, and he conceived that persons who entered into such conspiracies could be punished under the existing law. He wished to know, therefore, why their Lordships were asked to sanction such a measure?
    LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that there remained in the Bill provisions which he regarded as very important, and which his noble and learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst), who was not now present, fully approved. The Bill would include the enactments of the American law, which were admitted on all hands to be highly salutary, and would also make certain proceedings which English subjects might now do abroad with perfect impunity punishable, for the future, as misdemeanors. He thought he had stated the other night, without any risk of being misunderstood, that, by the law of England, cognisance could not be taken of acts committed beyond the territory of England. Acts, however mischievous, which were committed beyond the seas, might be committed with perfect impunity; and one object of this Bill was, to render English subjects amenable to the law of England for acts committed in foreign States, which acts might be detrimental to their own country, although they might not be punishable by the existing law.
    THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREwished to remind the noble and learned Lord that there were some 5,000,000 of British subjects in Ireland who professed the Roman Catholic faith, and who necessarily must communicate through their bishops, or other persons, with the Pope of Rome.

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    He hoped the noble and learned Lord would take care that his Bill did not interfere with such communications.
    LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that he believed that the Bill, as it originally stood, would not have interfered with the spiritual intercourse between Roman Catholics and the See of Rome; and he was quite certain that as it was now framed there was not the smallest possibility of its offering any obstacle to that communication.
    Committee named.

    SPIRITUAL DESTITUTION OF THE LABOURING CLASSES.
    Order of the Day read.
    THE EARL OF WINCHILSEAmoved to resolve—
    "That the Religious Wants of the great body of the Labouring Classes employed in our Manufacturing Districts (from the extensive Deficiency of Church Accommodation, of resident Clergy to administer to their Spiritual Necessities, and of Schools to afford them a sound Scriptural Education) demand the earliest Attention of Parliament,"—
    He would not detain their Lordships by entering into details at any length. The necessity which existed for making provision for the religious wants of the people, and the establishment of schools for their sound scriptural education, was so generally admitted, that he might almost content himself with laying the Resolution affirming it upon their Lordships' table, without adding a single observation of his own to enforce or recommend it; for if any man, either in or out of that House, holding the position of a legislator, admitted their existence and denied his responsibility to lend a helping hand for their removal, any arguments which he could advance would be quite useless, for he was convinced that by such a man even a voice from Heaven denouncing such a dereliction of duty to our country and to God would pass unheeded and disregarded. It was a notorious fact that the people of England anxiously desired an extension of religious knowledge; and he felt it to be an imperative duty on the part of the Legislature of this Christian country no longer to delay looking into the subject of the spiritual wants of the great body of the people. The repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, he begged to remind their Lordships, was effected by members of the Protestant Church, and they ought not now to be told they were not to have a particular system of religious education,
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    because the whole of the nation did not entertain their peculiar doctrines. They had a scriptural Church connected with the State of the country, and during the thirty years that he had had the honour of sitting in that House, he had frequently endeavoured to draw the attention of their Lordships to this great and important subject; for he held it to be among the first of their duties to give to the people of this country every necessary means of religious instruction, alike as regarded Church accommodation, a resident clergy to administer to their spiritual wants, and schools to afford them a sound scriptural education. He knew it was said to be impossible, in the present state of society, for the Government to establish schools confined to the teaching of the peculiar doctrines of the Established Church; but, for his part, he was of opinion that schools might be established where at least the teaching of the Holy Bible should be one of the fundamental rules; and he was convinced that the great body of Protestant Dissenters, especially the Wesleyans, would readily come forward and give their support to such a scheme as that. On a recent occasion this great Christian country was engaged in a solemn act of public humiliation and prayer, and, although they could only judge from outward appearance of the feelings which influenced the human heart, the manner in which that day was observed, not only in the metropolis, but through the length and breadth of the land, must have afforded deep gratification to every Christian well-wisher of the country. It appeared by the last Census returns that during the first half of the present century upwards of 10,000,000. had been added to our population; and within the last ten years no less than 2,700,000. It appeared, also, that there were upwards of 2,000,000 of people who, if disposed to attend places of worship, would be altogether without church accommodation, and it was, therefore, necessary that increased means of spiritual instruction should be provided. But he was not one of those who considered that the mere building of churches was the first step towards the religious instruction of the people. He believed that the establishment of sound scriptural schools and a resident missionary clergy would prove the most efficient means of reaching the mass of those who, through the neglect of their duty by the Legislature, had been allowed to grow up around us in a state of

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    perfect infidelity and absolute heathenism; and that, then, if new churches were built, they would be crowded by earnest and devout worshippers. Let their Lordships reflect for a moment upon the present circumstances of the country, and the national judgments which had visited the land. Let them reflect upon the late awful famine, which had carried off so many hundreds and thousands of their countrymen; that fearful pestilence which even now continued to hover on our shores; and the great war upon which we had just entered, and the result of which no man living could foresee, or tell how it might affect the greatness and the prosperity of the empire. They could not contemplate these national judgments without, as Christian and responsible beings, asking themselves if, as a nation, we had given any cause for such a visitation, and yet fail to perceive and honestly to declare that we had shamefully neglected the first duty of the country. He charged it on no particular Government—he charged it on the Legislature. They had all been guilty of neglecting their duty towards God, and if on the day of national humiliation and prayer, which had lately been observed throughout the land in such a manner as must have excited heartfelt gratification in the breast of every well-wisher of his country, they had closely examined the sins of the nation, he believed that they must have confessed that the most prominent of those sins had been the great neglect of which they had been guilty in failing to meet the spiritual wants of the poorer classes, over whom, in the providence of God, they had been placed. He could not believe that the noble Earl at the head of Her Majesty's Government would refuse his sanction to the Resolution he had now to propose. He knew well the pressure of the war, and how much the time of the Government was occupied in taking measures to mitigate the evils which it necessarily brought upon the country. He did not, therefore, ask their Lordships to agree to any specific measure upon the subject, but simply to acknowledge the existence of this pressing evil, and to declare that when the proper opportunity arrived, they would take it into their consideration, and endeavour to apply a remedy. The noble Earl concluded by moving the Resolution.
    THE EARL OF ABERDEEN: My Lords, I should be very sorry to appear to say anything at variance with the spirit of the Resolution which the noble Earl has pro-
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    posed; to much that he has said I willingly assent, for it is difficult to exaggerate the amount of spiritual destitution which prevails in some parts of the country, particularly in the manufacturing towns. My Lords, I know the zeal and sincerity of the noble Earl in his endeavour to meet those evils, and, agreeing as I do with many of the sentiments he has expressed, I willingly assent to the Motion he has made. But I would submit to the noble Earl that, when he moves this Resolution, it must be surely with some particular view; it cannot be that a mere barren declaration could satisfy any object, but it must be with a view that Parliament should act in consonance with the Resolution. My Lords, I cannot say that I think it is at all probable that Parliament would be induced to meet the deficiency of the church accommodation of which he has complained by grants made for that purpose; at least I should be very unwilling to propose to Parliament any such grant. Agreeing with him, as I do, in the great amount of spiritual destitution and the extent of the want of church accommodation, I still think we have great reason to congratulate ourselves upon the efforts which have been made of late years to supply that want. I think that during the latter part of the first half of this century individuals have done so much to provide means for extending church accommodation as to show much more may yet be done without coming to the Government for assistance for such a purpose. I will for a few moments call your Lordships' attention to what has been done since the commencement of the present century in order to show you the rapid progress which, through great energy and activity on the part of members of the Church of England, has been made in supplying the means for remedying the evil complained of by the noble Earl. In the commencement of this century, from the year 1801 to the year 1811, the number of churches built in England and Wales was 55; in the next ten years that number bad increased by 97; between 1821 and 1831, the number built was 276; between 1831 and 1841, that number increased to 667; and during the ten years preceding the last Census, the number of churches built in England and Wales amounted to 1,197. Now, we find that the greatest increase—that which took place within the last twenty years—has been effected without Government aid, and solely by the energy, and piety, and

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    zeal of members of the Church; and even the building of this large number of churches does not represent the whole of the good effected, for church accommodation was increased to a far greater extent by the restoration, enlargement, and improvement of the churches which took place during the same period—the list I have read being only a record of the churches built. Now, the fact of these churches being built by private exertions—the private and local exertions of individuals—contrasts strongly with what was done at the time Government aid was afforded towards the building of churches on the proposition of my noble Friend on the cross-bench (the Earl of Shaftesbury). The churches built by the Commissioners under those circumstances were, generally speaking, most improvidently built. They were built at a most irrational expense, and the funds were most injudiciously appropriated for the purpose. During the first thirty years of the century, 500 churches were built, at a cost of 3,000,000 l. sterling, 1,152,000 l. being provided out of the public funds and the remainder from private benefactions. During the following twenty years there were no public grants for any fresh undertakings, and yet, within that period, 5,500,000 l. was spent, and 2,029 churches were built; so that, during the few years since the cessation of public grants, the efficiency of the remedy for the evil complained of by the noble Earl has increased immeasurably, and I must say that a spirit does exist at this moment, with the view of supplying the wants of the labouring classes in respect to religious instruction to a degree that never, in my memory, has existed before. That spirit is still on the increase, and I have no doubt that by the private exertions which will be made we shall meet the evil which exists far more effectually than by Government grants. I quite agree with the noble Earl that this is a great and necessary duty, but noble efforts have been made by individuals in the cause; and in proof of them let me mention to your Lordships the exertions made by the most rev. Prelate who presides over the clerical affairs of the metropolis, who has built more than 200 churches during his ministry, and also to the metropolitan, the success of whose exertions has been not much less. The noble Earl has stated that he thought the building of churches should not be the first object; but I believe that a church has never yet been
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    built without speedily drawing within its walls a congregation, and, therefore, I think the first and most advantageous act in the way of supplying the deficiency complained of is the building of churches. In addition to the want of church accommodation the noble Earl has also appealed to the State in behalf of a sound scriptural education. What the noble Earl means by a sound scriptural education is, I suppose, an education in accordance with the doctrines of the Church of England. I agree with him in desiring to see a sound system of education introduced; but before we can hope to see such an education as this, we must come to some agreement with those who have claims also upon the State and the Government for the relief of their wants. We can no longer with truth say that the religion of the Church of England is the religion of the people. I do not mean to assert that it may not enjoy a numerical majority; but, notwithstanding, the amount of dissent and the number of the various sects and denominations is such as to entitle them to very great consideration. Those persons are good citizens and loyal subjects, and I say it is the duty of the State to care for their education equally with that of the members of the Church of England. My Lords, the difficulty of establishing any united system of education is so great that I begin to fear it must be considered as insuperable. But, my Lords, although the system adopted may not have worked so satisfactorily as could have been wished, I must remind your Lordships that the State has not altogether neglected measures for the education of all classes and all denominations. Just look at the progress made under this head since the revised system of grants voted by Parliament and distributed by the Committee of Privy Council. I do not know, but I am afraid this is not the most satisfactory mode of dealing with this subject; but, under the circumstances, I believe it to be the only practicable one, and I trust that the manner in which the Privy Council have discharged their duty to the country has given general satisfaction. This system of Parliamentary grants for the purpose of education commenced in the year 1839, when the sum of 50,000 l. was voted for the purpose. I will not weary your Lordships by going through the whole of the years, and the gradual augmentation of the grants, but in the last year, 1853, those grants amounted to 260,000 l.

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    I do not say that that is a large sum for such a purpose; on the contrary, if no better system can be devised, I am disposed to think it wise to extend and greatly increase, for such a purpose, that sum, large as it is. But I hope we shall shortly have a better system. There is a Bill before the other House of Parliament for the purpose of establishing a general system of united education in Scotland. Whether that will succeed or not I am unable to say; but it was introduced at least under very favourable auspices, and I must say if it does not succeed I shall be inclined to despair altogether of ever seeing, either in that country or this, a system of united education. We therefore, must do the best we can to supply the wants which have been described, by such a mode as I have pointed out; and I do think that a judicious increase and the judicious application of grants by the Committee of Privy Council offers practically the best mode of meeting the educational wants of the classes to which my noble Friend has alluded. Having said that, I cannot see the advantage of laying on the table a Resolution like that moved by the noble Earl, without any practical result expected or intended to be derived from it. I think there is nothing to be gained by such a proceeding; and it is quite unusual, in a Parliamentary sense, to lay on the table a declaration of that sort from which no particular measure is to ensue. Having said that I sympathise entirely with the feelings of the noble Earl on this subject, I should be very sorry, indeed, to meet such a Resolution with a direct negative; but, under the circumstances, I hope your Lordships will permit me to move the previous question.
    EARL NELSON: My Lords, I quite agree in many of the remarks which have fallen from the noble Earl at the head of the Government; and as a friend to the Church of England I would be one of the first to protest against asking aid from the State. We have done a great deal, both in the building of churches and the erecting of church schools, but, notwithstanding all that has been done, we must remember that there is a great want which we have not yet met, and that cannot be met by the means which have hitherto been employed. It is a patent fact that in all our great towns in many of the manufacturing districts there are masses of the population who are virtually not only excluded from the Church, but are untouched either by
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    the Church or by dissent, and who are nearly in a state of heathenism. Although! I do not ask Government for any aid towards reclaiming these people, I think a great deal might be done by the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the best mode of meeting the difficulty. Many of the working men in the country consider that it is the duty of the Church to move in this matter. Now there does not appear to be any apathy on the part of individuals to move in the matter. Many solitary efforts have been made from time to time for remedying this admitted grievance, but they have all fallen short of the exigency of the case; and I believe that what is really wanted is some means of acting together to meet the awful deficiency of religious instruction among us. I hope that a Commission will be appointed by the Government, or else that the most rev. Metropolitan will call together some of his right reverend brethren, some of the most influential of the laity, and some of the parochial clergy, to discuss the best mode of supplying the melancholy want of spiritual provision and church accommodation disclosed by the Census returns. I believe that the most effectual method of combating the irreligion which prevails amongst the masses would be to send out a missionary staff of the clergy. We shall never succeed unless we are prepared to treat the people as if they were in a state of heathenism. I believe that the working men of this country are favourably inclined towards the Church of England; and I can state one curious fact in corroboration of that impression. Some time ago, when I was conversing with a very clever working man, I asked him what religious body had the greatest power over his fellow-workmen. He replied, that some years ago he should have said the Wesleyans; but, since they had had a split amongst them, he believed that the Church of England stood next on the list; but that, if we wished well to the Church of England, we ought to do all in our power to procure more clergymen, for it was clear to all that she was more deficient in clergymen in proportion to her people than any other religious body. I therefore am of opinion that the first thing to be done is to employ large bodies of clergy for real missionary work. We should require funds to support them, and more extended means for educating them than the Universities now present. In this respect the Roman Catholics in Ire-

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    land teach us a useful lesson; for the way in which they provide for their priesthood is by selecting the cleverest boy in the village school and sending him to college for instruction for the ministry. Next to the employment of a large missionary staff of clergy would be the establishment of an organised body of the laity, voluntarily working under the clergy in their respective districts. I cannot refrain from mentioning the case of a friend of mine, the incumbent of Yarmouth, who proceeds on this principle. He divided his large parish into eight districts; these districts are placed under bodies of the laity, and visited by them; they all meet at the beginning of the week, and give a report of their proceedings to the minister, and a regular missionary work is carried on, and with most wonderful success. Next to voluntary b organisation of the laity comes increased church accommodation. I do not say always increase the number of churches, because I think when we have to act against such a mass of irreligion as that by which we are surrounded, we ought in the first place to make better use of the churches already in existence. I believe much might be done in our cathedral towns by periodical preachings in the cathedrals, if a sufficient staff of clergy could be provided, and if periodical services could be performed in the naves of those cathedrals, I am sure the people would flock to them. But what is the case at present with respect to the churches in our towns? Most of them are used merely for morning, afternoon, and evening service. In many of the churches services might take place at hours more suitable to the working man than the hours at present fixed. This system is acted upon in the Roman Catholic places of worship. In some of the churches abroad the service of the Church of England is performed at one hour, some other Protestant service at another hour, and at another comes the Roman Catholic service. I have mentioned the points which appear to me to be the most important. I believe there are means by which the Church of England might provide a remedy for the evils complained of, and I am anxiously expecting the Report of the Cathedral Commissioners; and when we have seen what they propose and what the Ecclesiastical Commissioners can do, I have no doubt that a part of any fund that may be required can be raised by voluntary contribution. For the want of some practical
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    plan we go on talking year after year and doing nothing; but I believe that by issuing a Commission, or by the adoption of the suggestion which I have thrown out to the Metropolitan, we should be able to devise some efficient remedy for the evils by which we are surrounded.
    THE BISHOP OF OXFORDsaid, he hoped that the noble Earl who proposed the Resolution would acquiesce in the suggestion made by the noble Earl at the head of the Government, to dispose of it by the previous question, not because he differed from the noble Earl in the estimate of the great lack of spiritual provision for the people, nor because he differed from him in his estimate of the great importance to us, as a nation, of providing for the religious wants of the people; but because he was convinced that such a Resolution did really point the minds of men in the wrong direction for that relief which was required. He was convinced that in the present state of the population of the country the Church of England could not with propriety or advantage ask for grants from the public funds for the strengthening, encouragement, and development of religious education. Although he lamented the fact of a large portion of the population having separated from the Church, there was still, thank God, the great majority of the population professing the religion of the Church of England. Even in the Census returns lately given the majority was of this kind—that whereas on the particular Sunday named there attended the Churches of England 2,300,000, the largest attendance of the next largest religious denomination—and that a promiscuous one—was only 515,000. Now, although he said that those Census returns were singularly inaccurate in this respect, it was sufficient to show that the members of the Church of England were greatly in the majority. Indeed, he should be thankful if he were allowed to test the accuracy of those returns, not by the general results in the office of the Registrar General, but by the details of those returns sent from the several districts from which the general returns were tabulated. He had himself found many singular inaccuracies in respect to those parts of the country with which he was more particularly acquainted. But even making every allowance for those inaccuracies, he thanked God that the Church of England was the Church of the overwhelming majority of the people of this country. This fact, however, he did

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    not think would justify her in appealing to Parliament for the means of extending her power by grants of money, and he should deprecate, even if the Government were disposed to assent to such a proposal, the reception of such grants. What the Church of England wanted was increased liberty to adapt themselves to the present necessities of the people. He believed that they could only ask for a continuance of that liberty which they enjoyed by showing that they were deserving of it. He believed that they could only get increased grants by a diminution of their present liberty, and that the result of such aids would be to stir up that inimical feeling towards the Church which was now happily slumbering, and that they would check that flow of voluntary help which had ever been liberally exercised in that Church, and to which the noble Earl called attention by the aid of such a striking array of figures. When they had expended 3,000,000 l. by the aid of the Government upon building churches they could only raise 1,900,000 l. of that sum by voluntary assistance. They, however, were enabled to raise 5,000,000 l. within a very much shorter period, when they had only their own voluntary efforts to depend upon. Although he thought that the Resolution of the noble Earl was influenced by the best intentions, yet its adoption by the House would be calculated to lessen the labours of the clergy, and to diminish their influence in the land. He should be sorry to see the expectations of those who desired to promote the greater efficiency of the Church disappointed, but he hoped that they would turn their attention to those internal exertions which ha thought would suffice, with God's blessing, to overcome the difficulty, rather than resort to what he believed was a dangerous and palsying source of revenue, namely, a public grant from the public money of this land.
    THE BISHOP OF ST. DAVIDSsaid, ho thought that the adoption of the Resolution would place the important question they were considering upon a totally false and delusive foundation. The noble Earl who proposed this Resolution had, with his usual earnestness, adverted to several calamities and afflictive visitations which had recently befallen this country. The noble Earl had ventured to do that from which he (the right rev. Prelate) would shrink—namely, to assign a cause for those calamities, one which was necessarily hidden from the human mind, and buried
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    in the depths of the Divine councils. Now, he would only observe that, in these remarks the noble Earl had fallen into an enormous anachronism, extending to an interval of about 300 years. The noble Earl attributed those calamities to the neglect of the Government which had failed to provide, by grants out of the public Treasury, the means of supplying a remedy for the spiritual destitution under which the people were labouring. The noble Earl had confounded a present effect with a remote cause. If there bad been any guilt in this matter, it certainly was not chargeable on any Government in our day, but had its origin in those religious dissensions which broke out about 300 years ago, and had continued down to this day. These dissensions were the palpable cause which precluded the nation and the Government from meeting the evil which they all deplored. He thought, therefore, that when the noble Earl treated the evils which had come upon us as a punishment for a national sin, he should have recollected that this sin was committed three centuries ago, and that it was not in our power at once to remedy the evil. If there was the slightest prospect that the Resolution, if passed, would have the effect of healing those religious dissensions, and of restoring us to that unity of feeling which was broken 300 years ago, then he would most cheerfully consent to it. But inasmuch as we were labouring under evils arising from causes so remote, he thought that the language which had fallen from the noble Earl was much to be deplored, as it could only have the effect of diverting the attention of the country and of Parliament from the remedies by which the evils complained of could be mitigated or removed.
    THE EARL OF CLANCARTY: My Lords, having listened with attention to this discussion, I wish, with your Lordships' permission, to say a few words before it closes. The noble Earl at the head of Her Majesty's Government, in objecting to the Resolution of my noble Friend, adverted to the fact, certainly a very gratifying one, that of late years a large and increasing number of churches had been built by the munificence of individuals, and that the yearly increase of church accommodation had been greater from that source than formerly, when the State gave aid to the building of churches; but both the noble Earl and the right rev. Prelate, who spoke last but one, appear to me to attach far too much importance to these church

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    buildings, as a means of supplying the spiritual wants of the country. Church accommodation is, no doubt, very important and much needed; but much more important is that religious training of the population which induces them to resort to places of worship. I therefore deeply regret the manner in which the noble Earl noticed that part of the Resolution and of my noble Friend's speech which referred to the want of adequate provision for the scriptural education of the poor. The noble Earl could not distinguish scriptural from sectarian instruction, and, therefore, could promise nothing. He did not consider that the Established religion was the religion of the masses of the people; perhaps it was not; but the people of England, whether members of the Established Church or Dissenters, were a people professing Christianity, and should, therefore, not be left in that state of heathen ignorance which had been this evening admitted and lamented on both sides of the House. After the manner in which the Government has for so many years disregarded the petitions that have been presented from Ireland for the sanction, aid, and encouragement of scriptural education for the poor of that country, I ought, perhaps, not to be surprised that the noble Earl should receive so unfavourably the representation made by my noble Friend in behalf of the neglected masses of the manufacturing population of England. The noble Earl has so repeatedly affirmed that the godless system of education under the Irish National Board was the greatest blessing ever conferred upon Ireland, that he is only acting in consistency with that opinion in withholding from, or rather in not extending to, the working classes, whose ignorant condition he admits, the means of Scriptural instruction which my noble Friend calls upon the State to provide. But I would warn the noble Earl that such spiritual destitution, such heathen ignorance as has been described as existing among a large section of the population, not only reflects disgrace upon a Protestant Government, but is fraught with danger to the stability of the State. Does any noble Lord think that the restraints of mere temporal power, mildly, as I rejoice to say, that power is exercised in this free country, are alone sufficient for maintaining the harmony and order of society, and for enforcing respect for legitimate authority and obedience to the laws, those laws especially which guard and
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    regulate the rights of property, without the aid and sanction of the Divine law, without the conviction upon the mind of the population, that those laws are founded upon the law of God? Let it be considered for a moment, what would be the condition of this country upon the possible visitation of a famine, or of the vast population of the manufacturing districts being thrown out of employment, and wrought upon by want to combine in insurrection against the constituted authorities of the land. What reason is there to suppose that, with such a population, unrestrained by the precepts of the Divine law, England would not witness scenes of bloodshed and outrage similar to those which ushered in the French Revolution of 1793, when Paris was in the hands of an infidel mob? Christianity was then disowned, and men affected to worship the goddess of Reason. The events of that period should be regarded by every Christian Government as a warning against the possible consequences of neglecting the religious interests of the people. Be assured that, to uphold the fabric of society, especially in a free country, the restraints of religion are not less essential than those of the municipal law. Hence, I conceive it is that we have in this country the union of Church and State. The one sanctions and supports the other. The Church claims the sanction and support of the State, as the witness and exponent of the truth in this country; and as the State, on the other hand, claims the sanction of the Divine law for the enforcement of its ordinances, it is its duty to support the Church in its mission of disseminating the knowledge of the Word of God throughout the length and breadth of the land. The Church is not to be dealt with as an establishment for the rich, or for only a section of the people. If, as the noble Earl remarks, the religion of the Church of England is no longer the religion of the people of England, why is it but because the Church has been wanting in ministerial efficiency, because the causes of the spiritual destitution complained of are precisely those which are set forth in the Resolution? If the Church possesses within itself the means of expansion, it is the duty of the Government to turn those means to account. If its resources are insufficient, then the State should provide whatever may be necessary for extending its ministrations, and teaching to all who are willing to accept of them, but espe-

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    cially to those masses of the manufacturing population whose spiritual destitution has been admitted and deplored. As regards the Motion before the House, I hope my noble Friend will withdraw it, for the adoption of his Resolution could not be attended with any practical benefit. The discussion of it I hoped might have drawn the serious attention of the Government to the existence of a very serious evil, which requires an effectual remedy; but I regret to find that the noble Earl, while he admits the evil, does not hold out any prospect of steps being taken for its removal.
    THE EARL OF WINCHILSEA,in reply, said, that no individual, however great his talents, was perfectly competent to undertake a measure of this extent and importance; but he held it to be the duty of the Government of a Christian country like this to make proper provision for the religious wants of the people. He did not ask the Government to provide a system of education that would be purely of an exclusive character, but all he desired was, a sound religious and scriptural education, based upon the reading of the Bible, without note or comment. With respect to the observations which had fallen from a right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of St. Davids) with regard to great national calamities, he might say that, though individual sins might go unpunished in this world, national sins never would, He had long felt that it was the duty of the Legislature of a Christian country like this to come forward and contribute some portion of the enormous wealth with which the Almighty had blessed it, in the relief of the religious wants of the poorer classes of its population. No country in the world was so rich and mighty; we were the greatest and most powerful nation that bad ever existed, with more moral influence than had ever been possessed by any other people; and he felt most deeply that we should be made awfully responsible for the proper use of the talents and blessings placed in our hands. Having relieved himself from any personal responsibility in the matter, he would withdraw the Resolution in compliance with the wish of their Lordships; but, at the same time, he begged most firmly to record his opinion, that, if the. present state of things was to continue and increase in this country, the day would speedily arrive when the condition of the manufacturing population—under no restraint of religion, and with the passions
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    of their fallen nature the only rule and guide of their conduct—would bring down a just retribution and punishment upon the high and mighty of the land.
    Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
    House adjourned till To-morrow.