CHIMNEY SWEEPERS BILL. (Hansard, 5 May 1854)

THE EARL OF CLANCARTY

My Lords, although the objections I lately urged against this Bill, both on account of the new offences it created, and the ambiguity of the language in which they were set forth, have been removed by the alterations made in the Committee of the whole House, I must beg, before you proceed to give a third reading to the Bill, to call the attention of the House to its present provisions, as it is now rendered, as a measure, innocuous certainly, but totally useless, and therefore not one that it would be becoming in your Lordships to send down to the House of Commons. The 1284 Bill, as it originally stood, constituted it an offence in any person under sixteen years of age to "use or attempt to use, to assist, or attempt to assist, in the trade or business of a chimney sweeper." The clause constituting this an offence has been wholly expunged. The other offence that the original Bill was designed to create was that every person who should "knowingly allow any person under sixteen years of age to attempt to use or assist in the trade or business of a chimney sweeper," should be subject to a penalty of not more than 10l., nor less than 5l., has also been expunged; and now, my Lords, what remains of the noble Earl's Bill? Why, it is limited to enacting that every person who "compels any person under the age of sixteen years to use or assist in the trade or business of a chimney sweeper, shall, for every such offence, be liable to a penalty not exceeding 10l." This, my Lords, is the whole of what the Bill now proposes to do, and this, I believe, is the very opposite of what the noble Lord intended it should do; for, instead of strengthening the law as against persons who should hereafter compel children to assist in the chimney-sweeping business, it limits to a sum not exceeding 10l. the penalty that might now by law be imposed, to any extent commensurate with the possible aggravations of the offence, and makes it doubtful whether any penalty whatever can be imposed for compelling young persons above the age of sixteen years, whether apprenticed or not, to serve in the chimney-sweeping business. I believe that, under the common law of the country, no man has a right to compel another to assist in any particular trade, unless duly apprenticed, but the effect of this Bill will be to enable master sweeps, without the fear of incurring any penalty, to enforce the services of young persons, provided only they be above the age of sixteen, in the very business the noble Earl is so desirous of putting down. I think it very objectionable that so useless, if not so mischievous, a piece of legislation should receive your Lordships' sanction. That, however, to which I chiefly object in the Bill is the preamble, which declares that it is expedient that the provisions of the 3 & 4 Vict. c. 85, should be extended; for there is, my Lords, abundant evidence to show that that Act of Parliament is impracticable, and, from that very circumstance, a dead letter in the greater part of the country. The 1285 noble Earl himself has stated that there are upwards of 4,000 climbing boys employed in different parts of England, in defiance of the Statute, and when last the question was before your Lordships a noble Marquess opposite stated, even respecting his own house in Scotland, that it would be impossible, without the aid of climbing boys, to effect the cleaning of the chimney flues. Then, with regard to Ireland, I do not hesitate to express my belief, that wherever turf or peat is used for fuel, it is impossible to comply with the Act of Parliament, as the soot generated by the combustion of turf cannot be removed from the flue by any machinery that has yet been invented. Having questioned the propriety of the noble Earl's attempt at legislation upon the subject last year, I made it my business to inquire in the different corporate towns of Ireland, and from parties resident in different districts of the country; and I found the opinion quite general, that the Act could not with safety be enforced. I should also observe, that I communicated with the architect of the Poor Law Commissioners, by whom nearly all the work houses in Ireland have been built subsequently to the enactment of the law against the employment of climbing boys, and his answer was, that where peat fuel was used, he believed the flues could not be swept by machinery. My own opinion having been thus confirmed, I felt it my duty to oppose the noble Earl's Bill, and although in the Select Committee that was in consequence appointed, no witnesses were examined but those called by the noble Earl himself, the evidence was such that the Committee could not report in favour of the Bill being proceeded with, and it was therefore lost. Now, my Lords, the circumstances of the case being such as I have described, it was certainly matter of much surprise to me, that the noble Earl should have reintroduced his Bill this Session, still more was it matter of surprise to me, that he should have obtained from a Select Committee a Report in favour of proceeding with it. I will not reiterate to your Lordships the objections I lately urged against the manner in which that Committee was appointed. Who the noble Lords were that really served upon it, I have not yet been able to discover; but it is remarkable, considering bow the Bill has since been attacked and stripped of its chief provisions, that not one of them should have ventured to address to the House one word in its 1286 favour. The fact is that the Select Committee was named and used as a mere matter of form, and the object of the Standing Order for its appointment, viz. to guard against injurious interference with trade, was altogether disregarded. The noble Earl, I am sure, is animated by the best motives in the course he has been pursuing in his legislation with respect to the business of chimney-sweeping; but having made it very clear that he has failed of affording to the children employed in the trade the protection he had intended, and that the law upon the subject is almost inoperative, it behoves the Government to take up a question of such admitted importance, and to ascertain, through the inquiries of unprejudiced persons, for what reason the law has failed, and to propose such amendments of it, or such other measures, as may be at the same time practical and consistent with the public interest, with a view to ameliorating the condition of those whose employment in the business of chimney-sweeping may be indispensable. I am sorry that the noble Earl should consider me as having been wanting in courtesy to him in the manner in which I have opposed his Bill. I can assure him that, in common with your Lordships and the public, I honour him for his great services and exemplary zeal in the causes of religion and of humanity, but I cannot allow personal considerations to interfere with the fulfilment of public duty. In the present case I think the noble Earl has shown a "zeal not according to knowledge;" and as regard the Bill upon the table as one that could be of no advantage to the public, but that would reflect discredit upon the House, I feel it my duty to ask your Lordships to put off the third reading to this day six months.