LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he was desirous of putting a question to his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack as to the intentions of Her Majesty's Government with respect to what appeared to him to be a great defect in the present administration of the criminal law. He had just returned from administering justice to Her Majesty's subjects upon circuit; and in every county he had visited he remarked the existence of a great evil, namely, that there were commitments for what were called felonies, but what were in reality offences of the most trivial character, such as stealing a loaf of bread, a pound of bacon, a pair of old shoes, or a few turnips of the value of 1d. All these offences it 55 had been his duty to try over and over again; he did not complain of that, as probably he was as usefully employed in performing the functions of a Judge as in assisting their Lordships in their deliberations. But the class for whom he felt was the offenders themselves. It had happened again and again that the persons who had been committed for such miserable offences had been lying for months in gaol, and had suffered a much longer period of imprisonment before being brought to trial than would have been awarded to them upon conviction. Many of them pleaded guilty, and would have pleaded guilty in the first instance if they had had an opportunity afforded them of doing so. Surely, this was a state of things which ought not to be allowed to remain; and he would suggest that the justices in petty session should have the power of dealing summarily with these cases; for he thought there was no difference in point of reason and common sense between a trespass and a felony of the class referred to. If turnips were pulled up out of the ground and carried away, the offence was in point of law a trespass; but if they had been previously pulled, and had been left upon the ground, the taking them away became felony; and in the latter case there was a commitment and a trial "before my Lord Judge" at the assizes. Surely, the distinction made between the two cases was discreditable to our law. It was highly desirable that the justices in petty session in the case of a trifling felony should have the power, with the consent of the offender—and in most cases that consent would be willingly given—of exercising a summary jurisdiction, and, upon conviction, of awarding a few days' imprisonment, which would be as much as the offence deserved. The matter was one which could only be properly taken cognisance of by the Government; and he wished to ask his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor if there was any intention upon the part of Her Majesty's Ministers to bring in a measure to remedy the crying evil of which he complained?
THE LORD CHANCELLORadmitted that the subject was one which deserved the most serious attention. He believed his noble and learned Friend was not in the House three weeks ago when a petition was presented by his noble and learned Friend behind him (Lord Brougham), not exactly to the same effect, but praying that some steps might be taken for 56 enabling persons charged with these very minor offences to plead guilty at a court of petty sessions, and to give the magistrates in petty sessions the power summarily to dispose of the case. He (the Lord Chancellor) had expressed upon that occasion his sympathy with the feeling in which that petition originated, and his general concurrence with the petitioners as to the importance of the object which they had in view; but he must say that he had felt, and felt still, great difficulty in knowing where to draw the line, and in defining those cases where the jurisdiction of the justices in petty sessions should be exercised. He agreed with his noble and learned Friend that the matter was one to which Her Majesty's Government ought to direct its attention; and when the petition was presented, to which he had already referred, he had suggested that it would he better to wait until his noble and learned Friend should have returned from circuit, because it was a subject with which he, as the head of the chief court of criminal jurisdiction in the country, was particularly conversant. He should be most ready to concur with his noble and learned Friend in an endeavour to devise the best possible scheme for remedying an evil, the existence of which he admitted; but he was sure his noble and learned Friend would feel with him that there were difficulties to be overcome; because, to limit the summary jurisdiction to cases where the property taken was of less value than a shilling, or anything of that sort, would not in point of fact be to deal with the subject at its foundation. What was wanted was something of a more general nature; and it appeared to him that the difficulties to be encountered had reference not only to value, but also to the constitution of the tribunal before which the case should be brought. It might very often happen if the jurisdiction were given to the justices in petty session, that the party charged might be taken before magistrates in whose presence he would hardly dare to say anything, he would be so completely under their control. These were some of the difficulties which appeared to him to stand in the way of dealing with the subject practically; but he fully admitted its importance, and, although he could not say that it was at present under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government, he would take care that it should be under their consideration as soon as he could get the concurrence of 57 his noble and learned Friends in devising measures by which those difficulties might be overcome.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) had already referred to what had passed when he (Lord Brougham) had presented a petition some time ago. He entirely concurred in the opinion which his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice had expressed, that a great number of the cases which were sent to the assizes for trial were cases of a very trifling character, and such as ought to be disposed of before another tribunal. The petitioners had requested him to present a Bill to their Lordships, having reference to the grievance of which they especially complained—the dragging of the jurors and prosecutors and witnesses from all parts of the country to the assize town where the prisoners in one-third, or even in one-half the cases pleaded guilty. They urged that this was a great grievance as well as a great expense; that there was no necessity why it should continue; and that the parties aggrieved were not only the prosecutors, and witnesses, and jurors, but even the offenders themselves. His reason for not having presented such a Bill to their Lordships was, his concurrence in the opinion of his noble and learned Friend, that the subject was one which Government ought to take up; and that the change could only be advantageously—he might say safely—carried out under Government control. He had also another reason. He thought that any measure of this kind ought to originate in the other House of Parliament, composed as it was in a great measure of the magistracy of the country. The first reason which he had assigned was, however, a sufficient vindication of the course which he had taken in not complying with the request of the petitioners, by presenting a Bill upon this subject—a subject which would more properly be dealt with by Her Majesty's Government, and by a measure introduced under the superintendence of the Secretary of State, than by any private Member of the Legislature. He trusted that his noble and learned Friend would avail himself of some other opportunity of giving to the Legislature, the profession, and the country, the great benefit of the opinions which he had expressed a few weeks since, on the important subject of a public prosecutor. He trusted that that subject also would come under the consideration of the Government, and, 58 although he agreed with his noble and learned Friend that there were very considerable difficulties to be overcome, he thought that the time had at length come when it was absolutely necessary some such measure should be carried into effect.