Lords Sitting of 23 March 1854

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Church Building Acts Amendment.
Reported.—Highways (South Wales); Registration of Bills of Sale.
ROYAL ASSENT.—Consolidated Fund; Exchequer Bills (£8,000,000); Coasting Trade; Mutiny; Marine Mutiny.

FRAUD ON THE COMMISSARIAT—THE HAY CONTRACT.
In answer to a question of the Earl of ELLENBOROUGH, the Duke of NEWCASTLE corrected his statement as to the parties who had delivered the hay which had been so much complained of.
LORD CAMPBELL: I am not acquainted with the merits, or demerits, I should say, of this case. It seems a very gross one; but, for the credit of the law of England, I should be very sorry if such conduct could not be made the subject of criminal prosecution. I have no doubt that, by the common law of England, these persons are liable to be prosecuted, and on conviction to be severely punished. There was a case tried before me respecting the monument to Lord Nelson, in connection with which a gross fraud was committed in the metal employed. Those persons were prosecuted; they were tried before me, and I sentenced them to three months' imprisonment; and a much more severe punishment awaits those convicted of the infamous conduct which has been imputed to Mr. Sturgeon, of which, as yet, he must be supposed to be innocent. Upon his conviction, I say he would merit most condign punishment.
LORD BROUGHAM: I am extremely glad to hear that my noble and learned Friend has come to the conclusion that such an offence is punishable by the law as it now stands, for it is infinitely to be preferred that we should proceed on the law as it now is, rather than make a new law with reference to that particular case. I am exceedingly happy to find that my noble Friend has, I presume on due consideration of the whole matter, come to that conclusion—in which, however, he differs, I am sorry to say, from other learned Friends of mine, who have well considered the matter, and come to the conclusion that it is extremely doubtful whether the individual is liable to punishment. This only shows how extremely inconvenient it is that this House—the Court of criminal review in the last resort—should be on any account, or under
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any circumstances whatever, drawn into a discussion of even a hypothetical case, respecting a case which may afterwards come before us in our judicial capacity. My noble and learned Friend has most carefully and safely guarded himself as far as regards the question of fact; and it is only in the event of the party being prosecuted and convicted of the facts alleged, that my noble and learned Friend can be understood to have pronounced any opinion whatever; and no doubt my noble and learned Friend, upon the matter of law, when it comes before him, will be perfectly ready to hear counsel for the prisoner or defendant moot that point, as well as argue on the question of fact.
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE: I think it right to repeat—as my noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice was not present the other evening—what I then stated—that the Solicitor to the Treasury is directed to make full inquiries, and if the facts be such as to warrant a prosecution, to prosecute the party.

TYNE HARBOUR OF REFUGE—MANNING THE NAVY.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, I am about to present a petition to which I wish to draw the attention of the House, and especially of Her Majesty's Government. It is a petition from James Mather, of South Shields, praying for constructing a harbour of refuge at the mouth of the Tyne, and involves matters of the greatest importance, in reference to the impending war in the Baltic, and, perhaps, in no inconsiderable degree, in reference to the manning of the Navy. There have been various plans at various times for the formation of a harbour of refuge, and improving the mouth of the Tyne, and the latter subject has recently been remitted to the consideration of Mr. Walker, the engineer to the Admiralty, who has formed a plan for improving the entrance into that river. I may state that one-fourth of all the shipwreck's which are heard of on the coast of England occur within seventy miles of the mouth of the Tyne; that during last January, 110 shipwrecks occurred in three days, within twenty miles of that river; and that not less than thirty-six of that number took place at the mouth of the river itself. There are not less than 3,500,000 tons of shipping annually using the ports of the Tyne, and there are not less than 7,500,000 tons of shipping using the four rivers of the Tyne, the Tees, the Wear, and the Humber. Access to the Tyne is of special importance

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to persons who reside in the metropolis; because, in consequence of the state of the bar at the mouth of that river during the prevalence of east winds, vessels are unable to leave the port, and during three or four weeks of last winter there were not less than 1,500 vessels detained four weeks, containing 200,000 tons of coal, all required for the immediate use of the metropolis. It is estimated that the cost of effecting the proposed improvements will be 350,000 l., and the Commissioners of the Tyne are able to offer to pay one-half of that sum. If they are left altogether to their own resources, twenty or thirty years may elapse before the work is completed; and in the meantime, in point of fact, the intended piers will be little better than artificial reefs, not improving, but deteriorating, the navigation of the river. Your Lordships must be aware how very much the carriage of coal by railways is interfering with and diminishing the carriage of coal by sea, and it is undoubtedly matter of public interest to equalise the facilities for the conveyance of coal by sea and by rail, so as to facilitate the carriage of that article to this very great manufacturing city of London. My Lords, there are other reasons which at the present moment render it extremely important that the Government should attend to the suggestions of the petitioners in favour of the construction of these piers. We are involved in a war in the Baltic, which must be carried on to a great extent, and every year will be carried on to a greater extent, by means of vessels impelled by steam, and to the port of Newcastle you must resort for coal, by which to carry on that war. You must go 700 miles to obtain any other coal than that of Newcastle, equally useful for the purposes of steam on board men-of-war. If the improvements are carried out in the manner proposed, not only will coal vessels at all times be able to leave the harbour, but all small vessels of war will be able to enter the harbour, and coal within it; and the importance of that is of the greatest possible consideration if this war continue. I am aware it may appear premature to suggest the continuance of a war, not actually declared, as an additional reason for improving the port from which the supplies of coal for carrying on the war would be obtained; but, my Lords, I confess I do not look forward with any sanguine views to the early termination of this war. I consider that if once a war be commenced, and the foundations of the great peace are broken up, a long time, indeed,
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will elapse before all the elements which compose the present system of European nations, the present balance of power, will be brought back into harmony and stability. It is, in my opinion, most advisable for the Government, at the earliest moment, to take into view probable events, and at the earliest moment to endeavour to be prepared for all contingencies. But, my Lords, there is another consideration, and one, as it seems to me, of very great importance, which it would be well for Her Majesty's Ministers to have in view. These ports in the neighbourhood of the Tyne produce the finest seamen in this country; but I regret to say that hitherto the Navy has not had the advantage of their services to any considerable extent. There has been among them a reluctance to quit the service to which they are accustomed, and to enter that of Her Majesty. Various circumstances, I regret to say, have occurred of late years which have been of a somewhat untoward character, and have tended to produce—I would rather not say irritation in the minds of the seamen—but a degree of estrangement between them and the Government of the country. More than one measure has been passed which has been extremely ill received by them, and has been considered to press hardly on their interests. In one instance—that of the Registration of Seamen Act—I think they took a very exaggerated and a very unreasonable view of the provisions of that measure; but the result was great indisposition on the part of the seamen to serve at all while the law remained unaltered; and, in consequence, that which is on all occasions a measure most injurious to the public, and rarely beneficial to the individuals who resort to it—a strike—ensued. That is a measure which must, of necessity, injure the public, inasmuch as the public wealth consists of the produce of public labour, which is interrupted and suspended while the strike lasts; and we rarely find that the persons engaged in it ultimately derive any benefit which can compensate them for the loss they suffer. Last year another measure passed through this House which had a very serious effect on their feelings towards the Government of the country. I vainly endeavoured to caution your Lordships against the adoption of it. The arrangement by which foreigners are allowed to serve in the coasting trade was a measure which appeared to me not only generally impolitic, but specially impolitic under the peculiar circumstances in which we then

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stood, anticipating, as, at least, I did, an impending war. These circumstances have tended very much to disturb, perhaps, I may say to alienate, the minds of the seamen in those ports, and I think it a matter highly important to remove those feelings of distrust, as may be done in a great degree by the endeavour—which their families, as well as themselves, will estimate—to improve the ports to which they resort. Upon the men I further most earnestly urge the adoption of a measure which would place them in a favourable position towards the country—I mean an extensive measure of volunteering, by which they would engage themselves in large numbers in the service of the Crown. There is at present, I regret to say, a serious disagreement between the shipowners and the seamen in those ports. The seamen, acting under very evil influence and bad advice, have united themselves in associations, every member of which is distinguished by a medal; the rule of those associations being that no person wearing a medal shall serve in a ship not wholly manned by members. The consequence is, the shipowners have been bringing seamen from other ports to supplant the seamen of the north-eastern ports; and although the whole matter of difference is only ten shillings a voyage, these men, under evil advice, have refused to engage themselves, and are walking about doing nothing, while the country wants their services; and if the country did not want them, merchants would be glad of those services. I wish they would feel that the only medal it becomes a man to wear is a medal placed on his breast by his Sovereign for good services rendered to his country; and nothing makes men appear more ridiculous, if not contemptible, than this decoration of themselves with distinctive medals by their own authority, which in this case is the emblem of disunion among seamen, at the very moment the public interest requires that there should be perfect union among them. I am told that these seamen would, in case of emergency, be willing to come forward and take service in the fleet. I think that emergency now exists. Three or four weeks hence, when the French squadron will have joined our fleet in the Baltic, and we then have a numerical equality with the fleet of the Russians, and that degree of superiority which arises from having vessels of greater force, and from a more extensive use of steam, then, indeed, the war in the Baltic
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may resolve into the ordinary course of a superior fleet blockading an inferior fleet in their own harbours; but until the fleet in the Baltic under Sir Charles Napier does obtain that superiority, by the junction of the French squadron—which it has not now—until that period, while Sir Charles Napier has the advantage of a central position between the three squadrons into which the Russian fleet is divided, and, while the ice is breaking up, this is the special moment in which all possible strategy may be exercised by which, with well-managed, well-manœuvred vessels, he may have an opportunity of striking a great blow with decisive effect, and perhaps even with little loss. But, my Lords, great chances attach to all warfare, and especially to naval warfare. Under its prevent novel aspect, there may, perhaps, by possibility—I will not admit at all the probability—but there may be by possibility, either from the weather, or from the enemy being superior, as he is, in numbers—there may be disasters; and I believe the men of the Tyne, the Wear, and the Tees—these, the finest seamen we have—would never forgive themselves—that through life they would feel the eternal pressure of remorse, if, from their absence, any disaster was experienced, or if, in their absence, any great victory should be gained. I cannot think that these men, who hold aloof from the naval service of the Crown—I cannot think they do not participate in the general enthusiasm with which the present war has been adopted by the whole country. I cannot think that they alone are insensible to those cheers with which the men proceeding to the service of their country in the Baltic are saluted by their fellow-countrymen on their departure. It so happens that at a very early period of my life I was thrown very much among seamen, and I have from that time entertained the greatest feeling of respect for their generous and noble qualities. At a more recent period I was accidentally engaged in company with them for many months together; and, undoubtedly, the experience which I then acquired only tended to confirm my opinions in their favour. My Lords, last year I endeavoured—as I have said, vainly—but I endeavoured, thinking I was discharging a public duty, to induce your Lordships, both on presenting a petition from many thousands of these seamen, and afterwards, when the Bill came before your Lordships' House,

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not to adopt a measure which they thought, and justly thought, inconsistent with their interests. I trust, therefore, when I venture to offer a word of advice to these seamen, I may be considered as offering it, in my anxiety for their interest and their honour, as a friend, and I do most earnestly entreat them, without the loss of one day, not individually, not by twos and threes, but as a body, to enter at once the service of the Crown. The emergency has arisen which demands their services. I do trust they will not be found wanting in this hour of their country's difficulty. I do not ask them to abandon all the habits of their life—to enter for ten years, or even for five years. Her Majesty's Government, in the emergency in which they now stand, have wisely, I think, abandoned that principle, and are willing to accept seamen for the year, though I may think that term inconvenient, both for the Government and the seamen themselves. Let them offer themselves for the voyage—that is, for the campaign—and I can hardly think, if such offers were made by large numbers of able seamen, Her Majesty's Government would refuse their request; but, in any manner, let them place themselves at the disposal of the Crown for immediate service in the Baltic. They may, perhaps, return with a medal granted by Her Majesty for their services—they may return with prize money—but certainly they will return with honour—respecting themselves, respected by others. They will have participated in great events, of which the fortunate termination may in a great degree have depended on their co-operation. They will have seen and will have done things to remember through their lives, and which may be talked of with pride by their families as long as they exist.

REGISTRATION OF BILLS OF SALE BILL.
House in Committee, according to Order.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that as he was absent when the Bill was introduced, he would avail himself of this opportunity to state that he cordially approved of its provisions.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to suggest to the noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) whether it would not be better, instead of compelling all parties to resort to London for a registry of bills of sale, to establish local registries throughout the country in connection with the county courts.
THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord
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had been made to him from other quarters; but, on the other hand, the commercial community of Lancashire and Yorkshire were of opinion that traders would not believe they exhausted bills of sale by merely examining local registries. They would still resort to the central registry in London, and, under these circumstances, he did not think it was necessary to make any alteration in the Bill.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid it would be as easy and as cheap to consult the general registry in London as to examine local registries in the provinces.
Bill reported, without Amendment; Amendments made; and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.

VALUATION (IRELAND) ACT AMEND- MENT BILL.
House in Committee, according to Order.
On Clause 1,
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREcomplained that the Bill contained enactments beyond its title, for it made an important aleration in local taxation, by including houses rated under 5l. in the assessment to the county cess, by repealing the clause in the previous Bill which prevented it. The effect would be that it would be found impossible to collect the rate from the occupiers, and it would eventually fall on the lessors, who would thus be made liable to the county cess for all tenements under 5l. The noble Earl moved an Amendment to strike out the portion of the clause enacting the extension of the assessment to houses under 5l.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, the Amendment struck at the principal provision of the Bill. It was desirable, as the assessment was uniform, that the collection and the exemptions should be uniform also. The effect of the exemption of houses under the yearly value of 5l. would be to encourage the erection and continuance of a very inferior class of houses. All the opposition to the Bill came from the owners of a miserable description of house property in Ireland, who now, in consequence of the exemption of small houses from the county cess, obtained larger rents than they would otherwise do.
THE EARL OF CLANCARTYobjected to exemptions generally, believing they led to great abuses.
LORD MONTEAGLEhoped the Bill would be allowed to pass in its present shape.
Amendment withdrawn; clause agreed to.
On Clause 2,
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYproposed certain verbal alterations in the clause.
THE EARL OF CLANCARTYsaid, that the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord would afford no security against the abuses of the law of exemption, to which he had directed the notice of the House on the second reading of this Bill. Monasteries and nunneries claimed exemption as houses used for charitable purposes; and, to a certain extent, the claim appeared to be borne out, when the Commissioners of National Education made grants to the religious orders, for opening schools within their premises, for the education of the poor. He understood that the school-rooms or school-houses exclusively used for the purposes of education, were all that could be legally exempted; but it was notorious that the exemptions had been carried much further. He viewed this with the more jealousy as it had lately come to light that conventual establishments had been, he must say surreptitiously, endowed out of the grants made for the education of the poor in Ireland. He said surreptitiously, as it was only by the last Report of the Commissioners of National Education, made on the eve of an inquiry, that it appeared that to conventual establishments had been for a long time paid a percentage on the number of children certified by the heads of those houses to be under their instruction; in consequence of which no less than 1,831 girls had been reported as in attendance at a single convent school in Cork. Scarcely less reprehensible was the mode by which exemptions from local taxation were being extended to such houses, for when application was lately made by the guardians of a poor-law Union in the west of Ireland, to the Poor Law Commissioners, to know how to deal with a claim that had been made for the exemption of a religious house and the lands belonging to it, from poor law taxation, the Commissioners left it at their discretion, to act as they might think proper, thereby, in effect, sanctioning an illegal exemption. He did not wish to raise the question, whether State endowments and exemptions from taxation should or should not be extended to conventual establishments; but he desired that whatever was done should be done openly, and that the opportunity afforded by the present Bill should be taken advantage of, to remove that ambiguity in the existing law of exemption, which had led to its abuse. He would, therefore, move the insertion of a proviso to this effect:—
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"Provided always, that nothing contained in this clause shall be held to exempt buildings used for the purpose of residence by persons bound by religious vows, or any lands attached to such buildings, from the payment of poor rates or other local assessments."
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, there was no necessity for the proviso of the noble Earl. Monasteries and nunneries were not exempted by law from the payment of poor or county rates; and if boards of guardians, as was alleged, chose to exempt such institutions, they did so in violation of the law. He did not think the Bill should be encumbered with a useless definition of the law, such as that proposed by the noble Earl.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, the proviso was unnecessary and illogical, because there was nothing either in the present Bill or in any existing Act of Parliament which exempted monasteries and nunneries from the payment of rates. The noble Earl might, therefore, just as well add words to the effect that play-houses, or any other description of property, should not be exempted.
THE EARL OF CLANCARTYthought monasteries and nunneries were not exactly in the same position as other descriptions of property, because they were, to a certain extent, charitable institutions, and as such should be exempted. He had been told to rest satisfied with the existing state of the law. But he wanted to know what the law was. The Executive Government had been called upon to declare what the law was, but they had refused to do so, telling the guardians who applied to them for information to do what they pleased.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, if any one desired to know the state of the law, he should apply to the proper tribunals. For his own part, he could not conceive how monasteries and nunneries could claim to be exempted.
Amendment withdrawn; clause agreed to; other Amendments made; and the report thereof to be received To-morrow.
House adjourned till To-morrow.