Lords Sitting of 25 July 1854

Preamble
Took the Oaths.—The Viscount Ponsonby.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Standard of Gold and Silver Wares.
2a Criminal Justice (Metropolis); Drainage of Lands; Borough Rates; Sale of Beer, &c.; Reformatory Schools (Scotland); Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction; Stock in Trade Exemption; Inclosure, &c., of Land; Common, &c., Rights; Friendly Societies Acts Continuance; Spirits (Ireland); Burials beyond the Metropolis; Admiralty Court; Land Revenues of the Crown (Ireland); Highways (Public Health Act); Literary and Scientific Institutions; Medical Graduates (University of London); Judgments Execution, &c.
Reported— Public Libraries; Registration of Births, &c. (Scotland); Usury Laws Repeal; Returning Officers; Turnpike Acts Continuance, &c.; Jury Trials (Scotland); Friendly Societies; Royal Military Asylum; Poor Law Commission Continuance (Ireland); Heritable Securities (Scotland); National Gallery, &c. (Dublin).
3a Registration of Bills of Sale (Ireland); Jamaica Loan; Sheriff and Sheriff Clerk of Chancery (Scotland); Joint Stock Banks (Scotland); Crime and Outrage (Ireland).

MEDICAL GRADUATES (UNIVERSITY OF LONDON) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MONTEAGLE,in moving the second reading of this Bill, explained that its object was to extend to the Graduates and Bachelors and Doctors of Medicine of the

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University of London the same right to practise in virtue of their degrees as is enjoyed by the graduates in medicine of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. This was no more than was the intention at the time the Charter was originally conferred on the London University. The second clause of the Bill was rendered necessary by the circumstance that two Acts had been passed during the last Session of Parliament—the Vaccination Act and the Lunacy Act—under which, on account of an oversight on the part of its authors in omitting the London University from its provisions, certain penalties had been incurred by medical practitioners who had graduated there, and from which they would be indemnified by this Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, there was some difficulty in the way of dealing with the Bill in its present form; but he should be sorry to oppose its principle, for he thought the University of London ought to be placed on an equality in the matter of granting medical degrees with the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, as was originally proposed. In the first place the Bill touched upon a subject of much controversy in the medical profession, namely, whether the licence for general practice should be given by the old licensing bodies, or whether the University degrees should carry with them the right to practise medicine. His own inclination was, he admitted, in favour of the principle that, under certain restrictions, the great Universities of the kingdom should have the power of granting licences to practise to medical graduates concurrently with giving them their degrees. So far he agreed with the Bill; but if the Bill passed now, it would settle the question of controversy only in a partial manner. A medical degree conferred by the London University doubtless implied a high amount of proficiency; but he contended that it would be unjust to extend the monopoly enjoyed by Oxford and Cambridge to the graduates at the London and Durham Universities, to the exclusion of the Universities in the North. He apprehended that, if those who were now so anxious to break up the existing monopoly were once admitted to a participation in that monopoly, they would not hereafter be so eager to put an end to it in favour of their Scotch and Irish brethren; and he thought it would be extremely unfair to give the privilege to the one and refuse it to the other. In his opinion the
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Bill ought to be limited to the second clause, exempting graduates of the Universities of London and Durham from the pains and penalties they had incurred under the Lunacy and Vaccination Acts of last Session, and that in that form their Lordships might agree to the measure.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he had contemplated moving in Committee the insertion of a clause to extend the provisions of the Bill to graduates of the Scotch and Irish Universities; he was willing, however, to accept the compromise of the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll). The Scotch Universities did not wish to have any superiority over those of London and Durham, but, at the same time, they did not wish to be degraded below them. The effect of the present Bill would be to place the latter in a higher position, which was not fair to the Scotch Universities.
LORD BROUGHAMconsidered that there was no ground for not extending to the Scotch Universities the same rights and privileges which were proposed to be conferred upon the London University. He was surprised to find Durham University inserted at all in the Bill, which, though most excellently adapted for teaching all the other branches of knowledge, was totally unfitted for the teaching of medicine. The hospital practice at Durham must necessarily be very inadequate, and where there was not hospital practice, there could not be effective medical instruction. If Durham was inserted in the Bill, the Scotch Universities had ten times the claim to that distinction.
LORD MONTEAGLEbriefly replied, and urged upon their Lordships the adoption of the Bill.
On Question, agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

POSTAL COMMUNICATION (IRELAND).
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORErose to call the attention of the House to the present state of postal communication in Ireland. The noble Earl said that the present postal arrangement in Ireland had given rise to very great complaints on the part of the public; and various petitions had been presented from the south of Ireland on the subject. The fact was, that since the establishment of railways there had been less postal accommodation afforded to the people of Ireland than there was before that great improvement in the means

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of speedy transit. Even where railway communication did exist the Post Office authorities did not avail themselves sufficiently of the facilities for the conveyance of the mails. As an illustration of this, he might mention that, although there was a direct railway between Dublin and Waterford, the mails were carried by railway only so far as Malton, and thence conveyed for the rest of the journey by coach over very indifferent roads; thus delaying their arrival at Waterford several hours later than it should be. Another complaint made by the petitioners on this subject referred to the absence of day mails, from the want of which commercial persons suffered much inconvenience, and the Post Office sustained considerable loss from the transmission of letters as parcels. Another ground of complaint was, the inconvenience and delay which existed in regard to the posts between towns not upon the main line of communication. The Bishop of the diocese in which he (the Earl of Donoughmore) resided was in the habit of going to the seaside in the summer months, and in some cases it took four days for his letters to reach his clergy. In reply to his complaint, that the railways were not sufficiently used for the postal communications, he anticipated that his noble Friend the Postmaster General (Viscount Canning) would reply that the railway companies asked unreasonable sums for the conveyance of mails. In answer to this, however, he would say that the Limerick and Waterford Railway had offered to convey the mails between those places for a rate of remuneration lower than that which was paid to the Great Southern and Western Company, but that their offer had been refused. He thought he had at least made out a case for inquiry, and he hoped that the noble Viscount would make inquiries into these matters, and see if he could not make arrangements which would be satisfactory to the districts which now complained of want of accommodation.
VISCOUNT CANNINGsaid, that while nothing could be further from his desire than to insist upon any arrangements which might be inferior to the due administration of postal communication in Ireland, he could not concur in the conclusions to which the noble Earl had come upon this subject, and should have to dissent from some of the statements which he had made in regard to it. Though it was true that petitions had been presented to that House upon the subject, yet they had
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all been from the south of Ireland. With the permission of the House, he would state a few facts to show that the noble Earl was in error when he accused the Post Office of having refused to allow the just claims of Ireland. The gross postal revenue of Great Britain was 2,294,000 l. and the Post Office expenditure 1,204,000 l., or about 50 per cent of the revenue. The gross postal revenue of Ireland amounted to 198,000 l., and the expenditure to 185,000 l. Therefore the management of postal communication in Ireland amounted to 93 per cent of the receipts, while in England it amounted to only about 50 per cent. Of the gross revenue for Ireland, only 17,000 l. found its way into the Exchequer. In these figures he had stated the matter favourably to Ireland, because he had charged to Great Britain the whole expense of the packets between Holyhead and Dublin, amounting to 20,000 l. a year, and that of the line between Chester and Holyhead, incurred on account of the Irish postage, amounting to 30,000 l. In Great Britain the conveyance of a letter cost upon the average ¾d.; in Ireland it cost ld. and one-tenth, showing that in Ireland the expense was greater than the receipts. In further evidence that Ireland was not treated unfairly, or subjected to any unnecessary disadvantages in regard to postal matters, he would refer to the amount of business that was transacted in the money-order department, and the privileges that were extended to Ireland in this respect. It was very generally acknowledged that this branch of the business of the Post Office was of very great service to all classes of persons; and, although it never was expected to increase the amount of the revenue to any large amount, yet it was always expected to meet its own expenditure at least. But what were the facts of the case with respect to Ireland and the money-order department in 1853? Why, whereas in England the money-order department brought to the Exchequer a profit of 14,000 l., in Ireland there was a dead loss of 770 l. As to the question of direct mails, and Ireland being unfairly treated in this respect, such was certainly not the case, as a proof of which it might be mentioned that direct mails had been established in Ireland more than two months before they were established in England. Within the last twelve months a direct mail had been established between Dungarvon and Youghal, And between Youghal

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and Fermoy; and a direct coach mail also between Kilkenny and Thurles. At this moment negotiations were being carried on with the directors of the Great Southern and Western Railway for the acceleration of the mails, and many other improvements were under consideration. The noble Earl presumed correctly that he would be met on the question of expense; and, when the large prices were considered which the Irish railways demanded for the transit of the mails, this was scarcely surprising. The rate paid in England to the South Western and Great Western Railways for a day and night mail was 2s. 9d. per mile; the rate paid to the Great Southern and Western Railway in Ireland for a similar service, performed at a lower speed, was 5s. 6d., or just double the amount. In England the average number of letters carried per week was 704,000; in Ireland it was 196,000. Therefore the price paid for an inferior service in Ireland was double that paid in England, while the number of letters carried was only about one-fourth. Although the offer made by the Limerick and Waterford Railway was moderate, compared with the charge of the Great Southern and Western, yet it amounted to 1,300 l. per annum, while the postage of the letters whose transport it would have accelerated amounted to only 350 l. Ireland had, unfortunately, not shown the same elasticity in regard to correspondence that had been exhibited in England and Scotland. In the case of Scotland, the reduction of the postage had been followed by a gradual increase in the amount of correspondence, so that, notwithstanding the difference of population as compared with Ireland, it had now reached in Scotland the highest point ever attained in Ireland. Though he could not promise to meet the arrangements proposed by the noble Earl, he would, nevertheless, be quite ready fully to consider any proposition that was submitted to him on the subject; but, at the same time, he could not hold out to him any promise that a largely increased use of the railways in Ireland would be had recourse to so long as the payment demanded by them greatly exceeded that which he was bound to say he regarded as a reasonable rate of remuneration.
LORD MONTEAGLEreferred to the irregularities caused by the present system, and observed, with reference to the small amount of correspondence in Ireland, that one cause of this was to be found in
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the falling off of a million and a half of the population.

COMMUNICATION IN RAILWAY TRAINS.
EARL FITZHARDINGErose to inquire whether the attention of Her Majesty's Ministers had been drawn to a late attempt to murder a policeman in a railway carriage? and whether, in consequence, they had any intention to introduce a measure to compel the railway companies to adopt some means of enabling the guard to communicate with the engine driver when trains were in motion? The noble Earl then referred to a circumstance which occurred, on the 10th May last, upon the Manchester and Sheffield Railway, and which had been noticed in all the public papers about that time. The facts were shortly these:— While two prisoners, who were handcuffed, were being conveyed upon that railway, in custody of a policeman, one of them succeeded in removing the handcuffs from his wrists, and in effecting his escape by jumping from the carriage. The other attacked the policeman, beating him about the head and body with his irons, and inflicting severe wounds. A fearful struggle took place between the two, the policeman vainly endeavouring by his cries to obtain assistance. Although seriously injured, he succeeded in retaining the custody of the prisoner until the train stopped at the usual station, where the necessary assistance was afforded him. At the trial which took place, it was clearly admitted that there was no means at present of communicating with the driver to stop the engine, unless he happened to look back. It, therefore, became necessary that legislation should be resorted to, in order to compel railway companies to furnish the means of communication between the front and rear of a train, or between the driver and guard; for, as matters now stood, the surest place in which a man could with impunity commit an offence of the greatest magnitude, such as murder, robbery, or violence to women, was a railway carriage. It was generally said, that there were insurmountable difficulties in the way of effecting this communication between guard and driver. He, however, was unable to see why that should be; for he had been informed that neither Mr. Brunel, Mr. Stephenson, or Mr. Locke shared in that opinion, and that, on the contrary, they believed all the difficulties in the way might be easily overcome by mechanical contrivances. He trusted, then, that of not this Session, at

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least next Session of Parliament, the subject would be taken up by the Government with a view to legislation.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYwas fully sensible of the importance of the subject which the noble Earl had brought under the notice of the House, and he could assure him that it was a matter which had received the fullest consideration of the Government. The noble Earl was aware that a Committee of the other House of Parliament had been appointed to consider the subject of railway accidents, and that that Committee had strongly recommended that it should be obligatory on railway companies to establish some ready and easy communication between the guard and the driver. The railway companies themselves had also expressed their readiness to adopt any scheme that might best promote the object aimed at. It was highly desirable, however, that whatever mode was adopted should be applicable to all railways alike, and be adopted on fresh lines as they were constructed. He believed a mode had been adopted on the South Western line of communicating with the driver by means of a rope running along the carriages, and worked upon a winch at one end. A report had, in the course of the present year, been made to the Board of Trade by Captain Wynne, on the subject of Professor Gluckman 's invention, in which he stated that Professor Gluckman had satisfactorily established an effective means of communication between guard and driver. That plan had been tried for a short time on the North Western Railway, and had been in operation for about four months on the Great Northern line:— and in a second Report of Captain Wynne, which he had seen, his opinion of the invention was still satisfactory; and he might state that he had himself been informed that evening by a Member of the other House, connected with the London and North Western Railway, that that company was under an engagement to use Professor Gluckman's patent. As the noble Earl probably knew, a Bill had been introduced into the House of Commons this Session into which a clause was introduced making it compulsory on railway companies to establish the means of communication between the guard and the driver; but the precise mode in which it was to be accomplished could not be pointed out either by the Government or the Legislature—it must be left to the companies themselves. From the great pres-
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sure of business the Bill had been withdrawn. He might say, however, that in the next Session of Parliament a Bill would be presented to their Lordships to carry that object into effect. At the same time it was but fair to state that they had ample evidence to show that the officers connected with the various railways manifested the greatest possible care to provide against accidents, and that they paid the utmost attention to the management of the railways committed to their care; inasmuch as that during the last six months not one fatal accident had occurred from causes over which the companies could have any control.
EARL FITZHARDINGEwas quite willing to join in testifying to the efficient manner in which railways were now managed; at least, nothing could be more complete than the arrangements of the Great Western Company, which was the line he was best acquainted with. But all those arrangements had reference merely to the prevention of accidents; and, therefore, allusions to them bore in no way upon the evil which he wished to see remedied—namely, the perpetration of great crimes in railway carriages.
LORD CAMPBELLthought that the public ought to be very much indebted to the noble Earl for having brought the subject under the notice of their Lordships. He must say there was very great reason to complain that the Bill on the subject of railways alluded to by the noble Lord had not been laid upon their Lordships' table. The Session before last he himself had pointed out several defects in the law relative to railways requiring to be urgently corrected. Amongst other points held out by the Judges as requiring a remedy was, that railway companies were not held liable for anything done by their servants, although those servants acted under the most complete idea that they were but fulfilling the orders given to them; and, therefore, unless it could be proved that a particular act was done by the authority and under the seal of time company, the injured party had no remedy against them. On a recent occasion, a respectable tradesman, who had provided himself with a return ticket, happened to return by an express train, when, on landing on the platform, a demand was made on him by a servant of the company for a sum of half-a-crown additional, in consequence of his having journeyed by an express train. On the man demurring to

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comply with the demand, he was actually conveyed away, and locked up in jail for twenty-four hours; and when, subsequently, he brought an action against the company for false imprisonment, he could get no redress, because it was contended that the servant had acted beyond his instructions. Now, he (Lord Campbell) had ventured to point out on that occasion, that it would be most reasonable that a railway should be held responsible for the acts of its servants, where it could be clearly shown that they believed they were bonâ fide executing the orders of their employers. He was very sorry that the intention of the Government had not been carried into effect in reference to railway legislation, and the circumstance of the delay only served to remind him of the existence of a certain place said to be paved with good intentions. But the fact was, the whole machinery of legislation seemed wholly out of gear this Session of Parliament, and the public interests had suffered accordingly.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYreiterated his assurance that legislation this Session had only been thrown over in consequence of the pressure of business. The noble and learned Lord, however, might rely upon it that a measure would be introduced next Session of Parliament.
House adjourned to Thursday next.