Lords Sitting of 23 February 1854

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL.—1a County Court Extension Acts Explanation.

COUNTY COURTS EXTENSION ACT EXPLANATION BILL.
LORD BROUGHAM presented a Bill to explain the Act of the 13 & 14 Vict. c. 61. The noble Lord said that these courts possessed, under the operation of a clause in the Act, as it at present stood, which was termed the optional clause, a power to extend their jurisdiction, not only to cases in which any amount of money, no matter how considerable, was involved, but also to extend that jurisdiction to any kind of cause, no matter whether it related to a question of real or personal estate, provided the parties to the suit were prepared to assent to the exercise of a power so unlimited. Now it was very doubtful whether, in consequence of the manner in which another clause in the Act—he meant the appeal clause—had been framed, parties who bad availed themselves of the power given by the optional clause had the right of appeal; and the consequence of this was that the operation of the optional clause had been very materially crippled. It had not thus led to the very beneficial results which otherwise it was calculated to produce, because parties to an action were unwilling to bring it on for trial in the county courts, in consequence of having no security that any error which might be committed by the judges of those courts in dealing with the question at issue, might be rectified by an appeal to the superior tribunals against the decision at which those judges might have arrived. The Bill which he now submitted to their Lordships had been framed for the purpose of affording a remedy for this state of things, and thus to extend the practical operation of the present law.
Bill read 1a.

UNIVERSITY REFORM—OXFORD.
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I have to ask the indulgence of your Lordships for trespassing upon your time, in order to make a short statement in connection with a question which I now wish to put to Her Majesty's Government, and which I had no intention whatever of asking until this day. Neither would your

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Lordships have been troubled with either the statement or the question, had not my attention been directed to a conversation which took place yesterday in another place with reference to the important subject of University Reform, the nature of which I learned from the newspapers this morning, and which is calculated to have considerable influence upon the deliberations of the meeting of Convocation, appointed to be held to-morrow. I hope your Lordships will excuse any irregularity of which I may appear to be guilty, in putting this question without having given any previous notice that it was my intention to do so, inasmuch as I was, until to-day unaware of the nature of the conversation to which I refer, and inasmuch as if I did not now put a question to the Government upon the subject, it would be impossible that that effect would be obtained in connection with the deliberations of Convocation to-morrow, by either my question or the answer of Her Majesty's Minister, which it is desirable to produce. I understand that a declaration was made in another place, yesterday, upon the part of Her Majesty's Government, that it was not their intention to advise Her Majesty to assent to the proposed petition for alterations to be made in the governing body of the Universities, which has to be submitted to Convocation to-morrow. Your Lordships must be aware that the only mode of effecting an alteration in what are called the Caroline Satutes in the Universities unless some interposition of Parliament—a course to be deprecated—were to be resorted to, is by petitioning the Crown and by asking its assent to those alterations. Now, the only means by which a petition can be presented by the Universities to the Sovereign is, in the first place, by obtaining for it the assent of the governing body, and then procuring the concurrence in its prayer of the University at large. When I speak of the University at large, your Lordships will bear in mind that Convocation includes all the members of the University, whether they be resident or non-resident, above the rank of a master of arts. Convocation consequently includes all ranks, classes, and denominations; and the expression of the opinion, therefore, of Convocation upon any particular subject, must be regarded as the expression of the sentiments of the University at large Well, shortly after the report of the Commission which had been appointed by Her Majesty to inquire into the state of
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the Universities appeared—I shall say nothing now with regard to the mode in which that Commission was appointed, nor with regard to the peculiar disadvantages under which the University of Oxford laboured in consequence of the exparte nature of the statements which characterised the evidence given before that Commission—but shortly after their report appeared, Her Majesty's Government announced it to be their intention not immediately to act upon that report; expressed themselves as being desirous of being informed, in the first instance, what course the Universities themselves were prepared to take in reference to the contemplated reform, and as being perfectly ready to postpone any attempt at legislation upon the subject until the opinions of the Universities with reference to it should have been ascertained. The University of Oxford did not lose any time in taking into its consideration the very important questions which had been raised by the report of the Commissioners, and in the course of last year a deputation from the Hebdomadal Board entered seriatim into the several parts of which that report was composed. Some vivâ voce evidence was taken by that deputation, but it conducted its investigation principally upon the principle of requiring written answers to written statements. By these means they had succeeded in eliciting the opinions upon the several points set forth in the report of Her Majesty's Commissioners of some of the most distinguished members of the University. They subsequently made a report to the Hebdomadal Board of their proceedings, which report contained at full length the whole of the evidence which had been adduced by means of their investigation. That report was printed on the 5th of December last, shortly before the close of term. It occupies a thick octavo volume, and in it the various subjects connected with the important question of University reform are dilated upon with great ability and great skill. On the 12th of December, an official letter, which has been since produced by the direction of Parliament, was written by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in which it was stated that Her Majesty's Government were desirous, in the first place, of ascertaining what measures for the alteration and improvement of their present constitution the different colleges were prepared to recommend; and, in the second place, what interposition of the Legislature they deemed

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necessary in order to carry those measures into effect. That letter reached me about the 14th of December, and, in acknowledging its receipt, I mentioned to the Secretary for the Home Department what were my own individual opinions upon the subject, and expressed a hope that the measure about to be introduced by the Government into Parliament, in connection with University reform, would be of such a character as to give the greatest possible latitude to the free and untrammelled action of the Universities themselves, in their endeavour to remove the Obstacles which stood in the way of their improvement, and that no arbitrary enactment would be forced upon their acceptance by the Government, or any undue interference attempted to be made with reference to the internal management of their affairs. In the letter to which I refer a request was conveyed that the fullest information should be given by the Heads of the University upon the different points connected with their position and condition, as well as their recommendations with regard to the steps necessary to be taken for their contemplated reform, in order that such information may enable the Government to advise Her Majesty as to what course it was desirable to adopt upon that important question, in the month of February. The letter of the Secretary for the Home Department I received, as I before stated, on the 14th of December, just at the end of term, and I lost no time in transmitting it to the Hebdomadal Board for their consideration at their next meeting. On the 19th of December, within a week after that meeting had taken place, I had an official communication from the Hebdomadal Board with respect to the report of the Commissioners. In that communication the members of the Board apologised for not entering into the entire subject as dealt with in the report, and for not being able to give any authoritative decision upon a matter so important; they conveyed to me, however, the assurance that they would take the earliest possible opportunity to take the whole question into consideration; and having transmitted to Her Majesty's Government the report of their delegates, which had not been approved of by the Board, they at the same time expressed their hope and belief that in the course of the month of January they would be enabled to procure from the different colleges all the information which the Government required. In the month
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of January I received official communications from the various colleges and from the Vice Chancellor of the University, in which were set forth the various plans for the modifications of their rules and system, for carrying which into effect the members of those colleges were desirous of obtaining the assistance and the co-operation of Parliament. All those communications I immediately transmitted to the Secretary for the Home Department, in order that the Government might have the earliest information on the subject to which they referred. Shortly after the Christmas recess the Hebdomadal Board met together for the consideration of that question which was the basis of everything else, and without which it was impossible to take any further steps—namely, what alteration of the constitution of the governing body in the University should be recommended to Convocation for the purpose of obtaining its approval, and should subsequently be presented to Her Majesty's Government for the purpose of obtaining, through them, the assent of the Sovereign? I think your Lordships will see that until that important question, what was to be the nature of the governing body, was decided upon by the Board, and until their decision had obtained the sanction of the Crown, it would be idle to enter into the consideration of the various questions relating to the internal management of the University itself, in the case of a body which was contemplating a material alteration in its own constitution. The decision of the Hebdomadal Board in reference to the important question of their own reform was communicated to me upon the 11th of the present month. Now, I think your Lordships will be of opinion that upon a subject so important—a subject involving changes so extensive—the Board could not have used greater despatch without having laid themselves open to the charge of undue haste and precipitation. Upon the 11th the Government received information of the conclusion at which the Hebdomadal Board had arrived, with reference to the petition which they wished to present, and that petition was forwarded to me, and duly presented upon Monday, the 13th. At that time; the consideration of the question which had been introduced by Her Majesty's Government with respect to University reform was fixed for the following Monday, the 20th; and it was considered by the Board to be a matter of very 'great importance, that, before the announcement of the Government measure,

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the Universities, as Universities, should be afforded an opportunity of expressing their free and unbiassed opinions with respect to the contemplated alterations. But in order to bring this subject under the notice of Convocation upon the following Friday, the 17th ultimo, it became necessary to give the petition the Hebdomadal Board recommended upon Monday, the 13th, the necessary publicity, in order that the members of Convocation might be aware that they would be called upon to deliberate upon it. The period of notice thus given was, your Lordships will observe, extremely short. Upon Monday, the 13th, before I received the copy of the petition, a member of the University, one of its most eminent professors—a gentleman with whom I have had no personal communication for the last forty years—came up to London, and held communication, in the first instance, with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with whom I believe he is on terms of considerable intimacy. The object of that communication was to represent to the right hon. Gentleman how extremely short the time was which then remained to obtain the decision of Convocation, and how desirable it was that the Government measure should be postponed until their decision should have been clearly and fully pronounced. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, upon the part of Government, assented to the rev. gentleman's request for a postponement of the measure of the Government; but at the same time intimated that the Universities should not be put in a worse position, for the purpose of communicating with the Government, than that in which they then stood, in consequence of having lost the time for giving notice. The rev. gentleman said he had no power to make any stipulation with respect to the prior information to be given to Her Majesty's Ministers. But I, being desirous that no disposition to concealment, however slight, should be attributed to the Universities, took upon myself the responsibility to make a proposition to the effect that if the petition were placed in my hands, it should be forthwith presented by me to the Government—not, however, as being that upon which the University had definitively agreed, but as a petition proposed by the Hebdomadal Board and submitted by them to the notice of Convocation. Now I think it was not unreasonable that a postponement for a week of the Government measure should be asked by the Board, in order that Convocation might
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be summoned. That postponement, as I have already mentioned, was assented to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and to-morrow the period of notice given for the meeting of Convocation will have expired. Now, the Vice Chancellor of Oxford called on me on the evening of Monday, the 13th. I saw him about nine o'clock on that evening, and received from him the petition, which was, upon the very next day, placed in the hands of the Secretary of State for the Home Department. On the following Thursday, upon my return home from your Lordships' House, I received a long letter from the Secretary for the Home Department, in which he informed me that Her Majesty's Government had taken into their consideration the proposed petition, and he expressed his regret that they felt it to be their duty to dissent from the scheme which the Board had framed, and that they were thus precluded from advising Her Majesty to give her consent to the propositions which it contained. I was, I confess, somewhat surprised at the announcement which was made in that letter; because, in presenting the petition of the Board to the Government, I had studiously abstained from asking them to state whether they regarded it with feelings of approval or of disapprobation—that the letter contained objections on the part of the Crown, not stated in detail, but objecting to the plan generally. I sat up to a late hour on Thursday evening, for the purpose of making as fully and as speedily as possible a communication to the Board, and that communication I despatched early upon the following morning, and also wrote in my own name a short answer to the letter of the Secretary fur the Home Department. On Friday last the question was again taken into consideration by the Board, and some amendments in the form of the petition were introduced; but it became necessary to promulgate that petition on Friday, for the purpose of giving due notice to Convocation that they would be required to deliberate upon it. The Hebdomadal Board, therefore, had received, their Lordships would observe, the information of the dissent of the Government to their proposition, without any intimation as to the views which they themselves entertained upon the subject of University reform. On Friday the Board were obliged to promulgate their petition, and the result was, that not I being able, in consequence of the shortness of time, to withdraw the notice which

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they had already given for the meeting of Convocation, they had to promulgate their petition without being able to introduce into it, as it originally was intended, any material alteration. It had been proposed to make one or two changes in the petition, and also to divide the subjects with which it dealt into two or three different heads, in order that the various questions might come as far as possible in a separate shape under the notice of Convocation, and that they might be able to pass their opinion upon the merits of the plan on their own independent sense of what was best for the interests of the University, and unbiassed by the assent or dissent of the Government. That object is now frustrated. Her Majesty's Government had thought fit to intimate their dissent in the first instance to the propositions which had emanated from the Board, and their intention in the next place to proceed with their own measure, without giving Convocation any power to do that which they admitted it was desirable they should do—namely, to submit to the consideration of the Legislature a scheme of their own. I think it would not have been too much to expect that Her Majesty's Government, when they intimated their dissent to the proposals of the Board, should have stated what course it was in their opinion advisable that the Board should take, and which, if they did take, they would obtain the assent of the Government. Such a mode of dealing with the question would, at all events, have preserved to that body the appearance of independent action; but the present position of the question was this: the petition of the Board will be submitted to Convocation to-morrow, with the knowledge upon their part that they have no power whatsoever to make any alterations in it; that they can merely say aye or no; not with a knowledge of what the Government desired, but with the knowledge that, whatever they might agree to would not receive the assent of the Government. Now, my Lords, I contend that that is not the fair way of putting the question before the University, or of obtaining the independent judgment of the University upon it. I do not suppose that such has been the object of the Government; but certainly no course could have been taken which would have been more effective for rendering it impossible for the University to agree upon a petition for any scheme of reform, and thus for enabling the Government to say that, as the University could not agree, it
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had become necessary for the Government themselves to prepare a measure. Had it not been for the announcement which has been made by the Government, I should have been quite content to leave the question in the state in which it stands. The Hebdomadal Board have made known what they are about to propose; the Convocation would have been asked whether they assent to it; the petition would have been decided upon by the independent voice of Convocation, and it would then have rested with the Crown to decide whether it will assent to the petition or not. At all events, we should have had the independent opinion of the University, and Parliament and the Government would have been free to act upon that opinion. But the course which has been taken renders it necessary that I should put a question to the noble Earl at the head of the Government. The University, I believe, has not been slow in their desire to meet the wishes of the Government, and they have afforded to the Government every information which it was possible for them to give, both with regard to the University and the colleges. That information with regard to the colleges the Government has been in possession of for nearly a month; and they have also been informed that the main object of the University is to obtain a permissive power to alter the Carolian statutes. As the Government have thought fit to dissent from the proposal which is about to be made to Convocation, and by anticipation to condemn the scheme; I am entitled to ask if the Government will undertake, before giving publicity to their own scheme for any alteration of the statutes of the University, to make an official communication to the University, so that the University may, in an official and recognised manner, take such proposal into consideration, in order to see how far it will, in their opinion, conduce to the benefit of the University; or will they leave it to the University to learn, for the first time, from the reports of what takes place in Parliament, what the scheme of the Government is for the regulation of the future government of the University, and for effecting a change in all the institutions, habits, and mode of government of that body? Is the noble Earl prepared to state that, having disapproved of the measure which has been submitted to them in the first instance, the Government will communicate to the University, previously to bringing it before Parliament, the mea-

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sure which, in their opinion, should be introduced to effect these great changes?
THE EARL OF ABERDEEN, who was almost inaudible, was understood to state that he could not undertake to promise that Her Majesty's Government would officially communicate to the Hebdomadal Board before submitting to Parliament the measure upon which they might finally agree with respect to the Universities. As at present advised, it was certainly not their intention to make such a communication of that measure to the Universities. Anything in the nature of deliberation was out of the question in Convocation, which had no power to do more than say "yes" or "no" to the propositions of the Hebdomadal Board—except, indeed, that any gentleman might, if he wished, make a Latin speech; and the only additional information which the Government would have obtained by waiting until after the proceedings in Convocation, would therefore have been whether that body assented to or dissented from the propositions of the Board.

TRANSPORT OF CAVALRY TO THE EAST—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF CARDIGANsaid, he wished to put a question to Her Majesty's Government on a subject which he could not but think of great importance. In adverting to the subject, he was not inclined to think that Her Majesty's Government had acted otherwise than with the greatest prudence and judgment in carrying negotiations to the last moment possible before coining to the conclusion that recourse to arms was unavoidable; nor did he believe that they were now about to send out an expedition to the seat of war without an intention to carry on operations with the utmost promptitude and vigour. The inquiry he had to put was one entirely of expediency, and he believed was worthy of the consideration of the Government. He had heard with great regret—and he could not but add with a great deal of surprise also—that it was not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take advantage of the discoveries in art and science which the ingenuity of man had placed at their disposal,—that they were not going to send out every branch of the expedition by means of steam navigation. He had been informed that they were about to send out the infantry to the seat of war by steamers, but that the same description of conveyance was not to be used for the
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transport of those important branches of the service—the artillery and cavalry. He had heard this announcement with great regret, because the delay and inconvenience of conveying horses by sailing vessels was very great, and was also accompanied with much risk to the horses themselves, because, where the voyage was long, it was often found that numbers died on the passage, and others had to be shot after being landed, being unfit for service. The experience obtained in the conveyance of horses belonging to the cavalry in steam-vessels which plied between Liverpool and Ireland, showed that horses could be conveyed in steamers with perfect safety. The inconvenience which might arise to the expedition from the use of sailing vessels instead of steamers was perfectly obvious, because the north-easterly winds, which were more prevalent at this time of the year than at any other, were likely to cause great detention on the outward voyage. He therefore wished to ask the Government whether they did not mean to take advantage of the resources of steam navigation existing in this country for the purpose of transporting every branch of the proposed expedition to the seat of war in steamers, without incurring the risk, delay, and danger necessarily attendant upon sailing vessels? He was quite sure that the people of this country, now that they had entered upon the war, would not grudge any small additional expense for the more efficient prosecution of that war, and to render our aid as prompt and as effectual as possible.
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE: My noble Friend has called the attention of your Lordships to a very important question, and I can assure him that Her Majesty's Government have not neglected its consideration. My noble Friend says, he is quite certain that the country will not grudge any additional expense which might be required for transporting the cavalry and artillery by steam instead of by sailing vessels. I entirely agree with him in that statement, and am confident that no extra cost that may be necessary for that object will be grudged; but it is not upon the ground of expense that the arrangement has been made. My noble Friend thinks that, in the present flourishing condition of the steam navigation of this country, there would be no difficulty in carrying out his suggestion. Now it is precisely in consequence of that very flourishing condition of our steam navigation

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that the difficulty arises; and although I do not say that it would be absolutely impossible, yet, I believe, such an arrangement as he recommends would be impracticable without entirely deranging those postal communications which the Government do not wish to interfere with so long as no very great emergency exists. I can assure my noble Friend that, so far from the operation being so easy as he supposes, when the Government first came to the determination to send out this expedition to the Mediterranean, those with whom I had to put myself in communication thought it would be found to be absolutely impossible that so large a force as 20,000 troops could be transported in steam-vessels unless the arrangements of the steam companies were greatly, if not entirely, interrupted. That has not, however, proved to be the fact; and it is only due to the companies that I should say that the difficulty has been overcome by the patriotic readiness they have displayed in aiding the Government. It is necessary to say that I do know that the arangements of the Government have already seriously inconvenienced these companies; and although we of course pay a considerable sum for the use of their steamers, I believe that the payment which the country has to make to the companies does not repay them either for the inconvenience they will suffer, or for the wear and tear which their ships will sustain. My Lords, I am sure that the same spirit which has been manifested by the steam companies will also be exhibited, as occasion may demand, under existing circumstances, by every other class of Her Majesty's subjects. I can assure my noble Friend, that the best inquiries were made as to the practicability of obtaining a sufficient amount of steam transports for the conveyance of the number of horses already ordered, namely, 1,500, without taking into consideration the additional number which will be required to be sent out before long. We were well assured that it was totally impracticable; and when the noble Earl recollects the immense amount of space required by horses, and also the great portion of space necessary, not merely for the horses themselves, but for the steam machinery and for the fuel which has to be carried; and further, that in conveying horses you must make an allowance for the provender, and likewise for the large quantity of water requisite for a long voyage, he will see that the cost of conveyance of
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this kind to the Mediterranean must be very great indeed. I am afraid, therefore, that his suggestions, however valuable in themselves, cannot be carried out. But this may be done to obviate the inconvenience which he has pointed out; namely, that when the sailing vessels are prepared and ready to be sent out with the horses on board, we may be able to attach some steamers to them, in order to take a certain number of the sailing vessels in tow, in the event of adverse winds or calms, and thus, to a certain extent, we may obviate the inconvenience of a less rapid means of transit.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGHsaid there could be no doubt that the difficulty in sending out horses to the Mediterranean must be very great. He believed that every horse required ten tons; and as 1,500 horses were to be sent out in the first instance, this would take 15,000 tons altogether; and no doubt it would be extremely difficult to obtain the requisite amount of space in steam-vessels. At the same time, however important the postal communications of the country might be, facility for the transport of the army was of still more importance. The infantry must be chained to the coast of Turkey if it were sent in advance, and would be unable to act in the interior without the cavalry and artillery, and therefore it would be perfectly absurd to send any force with the view to immediate operations under circumstances of that description. There was, however, one consideration that had not been referred to—namely, that steamers could make three trips whilst sailing vessels made one; and therefore, although each horse required ten tons, one-third of the tonnage required to carry 1,500 horses by sailing vessels would suffice to convey the same number by steamers in the same time; and there would be this advantage in using steamers, that at least one-third of the artillery would arrive in good time. He did not know how the country viewed the matter, but the operation which the Government of this country, and that of France, had undertaken was, to his mind, one of enormous and unparalleled magnitude, and such as it would scarcely be possible for any effort on the part of either Government to carry out. It was impossible that the French Government should design to send less than 6,000 cavalry; they would require at least 3,000 horses for their artillery, and at least 1,000 horses for staff

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purposes. Altogether 10,000 horses attached to the forces would have to be sent by both countries to Constantinople; and this would require 100,000 tons of shipping; and it must be recollected that these forces would be sent to a country in which it would be almost impossible to obtain the means of transit on the spot. Therefore, no doubt the difficulties of carrying out the intentions of the Government would be great indeed; and he thought the noble Duke would have to look for further means of overcoming those difficulties. They should at least try to obtain this steam tonnage, because the efficiency of the force would depend a great deal upon their obtaining it.
LORD DE ROSsaid, that sailing vessels, if they were properly ventilated and fitted up, could convey horses with great safety. When he had been connected with the cavalry, horses had been frequently conveyed in that manner. He had known of forty horses being brought home by one transport, without one of them being injured. Horses were formerly put into transports like so much luggage. This was a matter of great importance; and, although he had no doubt that sailing vessels could carry horses, yet, if steamers could be procured, they ought certainly to be in readiness in order to provide against contingencies.

WITHDRAWAL OF TROOPS FROM THE WEST INDIA ISLANDS—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF DESARTrose to inquire of Her Majesty's Government whether an arrangement had not recently been made for the withdrawal of troops from the smaller West India Islands? Their Lordships were aware that those islands were garrisoned by detachments of troops from the head-quarters at Jamaica or Barbadoes. Since the beginning of this year some troops had been withdrawn from the smaller islands, to the great alarm of the white settlers, who were apprehensive of the rising of the black portion of the population. The white settlers did not consider the blacks as well affected towards them, as the blacks looked upon them in the odious light of taskmasters. That these apprehensions were not altogether ill-founded was evidenced by an insurrection which had taken place at Tortola in the January of last year. There was no garrison there, and the white residents fled in great dismay, leaving Colonel Clads, who was obliged to send to the nearest place,
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which was a Danish island, for succour. Some delay, however, took place before it arrived, as the commander of the detachment did not like to undertake the responsibility of sending troops to a British island without the consent of the Governor. He believed that after some time had elapsed troops were sent there from Antigua. He thought it was disgraceful that British subjects, British property, and British territory should have to be protected by foreign arms. Great alarm had, in consequence, arisen among the capitalists in these smaller islands, who were unwilling to trust either themselves or their capital in them any longer. He believed that the withdrawal of the troops was, therefore, false economy, as almost the very existence of some of the islands depended upon capital, and the yearly value of the insignificant island of Tortola alone amounted to 10,0007. He wished to know what were the intentions of Her Majesty's Government for the future maintenance of order in these islands? He had heard from private sources, that if Her Majesty's Government thought it was necessary to withdraw these troops from motives of economy, contributions would probably be raised in the islands themselves to defray the additional expense of keeping them, which would not amount to much more than 15,000 l. He believed that some of Her Majesty's ships were to touch at these places from time to time; but was it probable that the moral effect of an occasional visit from a ship would preserve order among the disaffected, excitable, and ignorant black population?
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE: The noble Earl has been rightly informed as regards the withdrawal of a detachment of troops from four of the West India Islands, namely, St, Vincent, Tobago, Dominica, and St. Christopher. The noble Earl assigns a reason which, although entering into our consideration, was not the only reason for this measure. He seems to think the sole reason was economy. Now the reasons for the course pursued were threefold, the ground of expense being the smallest. In the first place it has been found—and it must be obvious at once that it is so—that the discipline and good order of troops, especially in a climate like that of the West Indies, are greatly deteriorated by their being dispersed in small detachments stationed at the various islands. The first reason is therefore of an entirely military character. Another reason is,

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that these detachments are so extremely small (at Tobago, for instance, only numbering eighty-four men), that for any purpose of external defence they are entirely useless, and worse than useless, because in time of war they would only present a temptation to privateers to make a descent upon such islands for the mere purpose of inflicting disgrace upon the arms of this country. That is a second military reason. There is also a civil reason for the measure. The retention of troops in a colony simply for preserving internal order has a tendency to prevent such communities from taking measures, which every community is bound to adopt, to establish a police force in order to prevent or repress internal disturbances. The question of police has been lamentably neglected in these islands. Now experience has shown that a military force, however efficient for the suppression of disturbances, are almost inoperative for the purpose of preventing them. The result of withdrawing the troops from these islands will be to impose on the colonists the duty they have so long neglected, of providing themselves with a police force. Then comes the third reason—that of expense. The maintenance of troops in small detachments is a considerable additional expense to the country, on account of the commissariat establishments, and the cost of transporting the troops. For these three reasons this measure has been adopted. The noble Earl (the Earl of Desart) says, very justly, that considerable doubts have been entertained as to the effect of these withdrawals; and I am not surprised that such apprehensions should arise among people who have been accustomed to have a military force among them. The communities from which the troops are withdrawn will then, however, stand in the same position as others which have never had a military force. The noble Earl also referred to a case in which a disturbance occurred a short time ago in Tortola. I must say that the neglect on the part of the local authorities of that island was most culpable, and that upon their heads, in a great measure, rests the blame of the disturbance which occurred. The noble Earl has supposed that I should tell him that Her Majesty's Government propose to meet the case by occasionally sending a ship of war to visit these islands in order to produce a moral effect upon the black population. I can assure him that I do not entertain any such idea; but an arrangement has been made which I think will be
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more effective for its purpose, and will obviate the evils which have been referred to. Her Majesty's Government have placed at the disposal of the Governor of Barbadoes and the commander of the forces there a steamer for the conveyance of troops, at a moment's notice, to any of the islands where they may be required. I believe that, by the concentration of the forces, you will obviate all the evils which I have pointed out; and you will also, I hope, obtain the advantage of producing among the colonists an impression that they must establish a police force which will not merely be adequate to the duties which the military have hitherto performed, but will be much better fitted for their performance. The noble Earl is right in saying that an offer was made by some of the colonists to contribute 15,000 l. if the troops were allowed to remain. The payment of that sum would, however, only remove one of the reasons for the concentration—the saving of expense; and I am sure, if that or a smaller sum is expended in the establishment of an effective police force, the colonists will have no reason to regret the step which has been taken. Your Lordships will find that by the adoption of this plan you will have a much more efficient military establishment, and will avoid the demoralisation of the troops, which I am sure any one who has been connected with troops in these islands will bear me out in saying that I have not exaggerated. Let me add that the policy which the Government has adopted is not to be limited to the West India Islands; it is but part of the system of policy to be pursued in regard to all our colonial possessions. In Canada, for instance, every effort is being made to concentrate the troops. Many small posts, which have been maintained since the war, have been removed, and the troops have been withdrawn to more considerable stations. I have myself recently carried out measures of a similar character in the island of Mauritius. My opinion is that, as a general rule, it is undoubtedly the duty of this country to protect our colonial possessions from foreign aggression at all hazard and all expense; but we are not bound to maintain an army in every small colony, and in every portion of a colony—for it really amounts to that, if you once establish the principle that each West India island is entitled to a force to supply the place of police;—and I think we have done right in departing from such a practice.
EARL GREYsaid, he fully concurred with the noble Duke in thinking that this country was not called upon to provide a force for the performance of police duty in the colonies. He had also no doubt of the validity of the military reasons which had been assigned by the noble Duke for the withdrawal of the small detachments of troops; and therefore the measure, if earried into effect with due precaution and in a proper manner, appeared to him to be a judicious one. That such precaution had been taken he did not doubt. The case of the West India Islands differed in some respects from that of other of our colonies. This country had made great sacrifices for the purpose of establishing, upon the abolition of slavery, we ordered and industrious communities in those islands. The success of the experiment depended upon the small white population being enabled for some years longer to continue in those islands; and if the white planters and higher classes of society were by alarm induced to leave those colonies at an earlier period, he was afraid that they would relapse into a state little better than their original barbarism. He therefore trusted that, in carrying the withdrawal of troops into effect, care had been taken not to give the population any unnecessary alarm; and also to give them time for making any arrangements which the measure might render necessary, and to ascertain that the proper tune for the withdrawal had come. As it seemed to be a part of the arrangement that the troops should be concentrated in Barbadoes, he hoped that the arrangements for providing for the health of the troops in those barracks, which two years ago were absolutely necessary, had been carried out. At the time he referred to, nothing could be more unsatisfactory, in regard both to drainage and other matters, than the state of those barracks.
THE EARL OF ELGINsaid, that having had many years' experience in the administration of public affairs in some of the most important dependencies of the British Crown, and therefore having had greater opportunities than most of their Lordships of knowing the feelings and sentiments of the colonists, he would beg to make a few remarks on the general relations which ought to subsist between the colonies and the mother-country in reference to the management of their internal affairs. It was his opinion—and he believed the good sense of the colonists in general would
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concur with him in that opinion—that it was, except under some special and peculiar circumstances, just and reasonable that the colonists should be required to provide at their own cost such forces, whether civil or military, as might be requisite for the protection of internal tranquillity, and of their internal police—he would go further, and say also for their protection against such measures of aggression as they might be exposed to in consequence of any acts of imprudence of their own. But, upon a parity of reasoning, he thought that the colonists had a very strong claim upon the protection of the mother-country against such casualties and calamities as might be brought upon them by the operations of the imperial policy, over which they had no power of exerting any influence or supervision. Such, he thought, was a fair representation of the equity of the case as between the colonists and the mother-country; but at the same time that did not exhaust the whole difficulty of the subject; for it was natural that the people of this country, looking at the vast extent of our colonial empire, and at the progress towards maturity which some parts of that empire were making, should inquire whether the time had not come when some of these young and vigorous communities might contribute something by way of aid and co-operation to the mother-country, in return for the cost and labour which the mother-country had lavished on them during, the period of their infancy and childhood. Upon this point, it appeared to him that when this country deliberately abandoned the system of commercial restriction in respect of our colonial empire—which, whatever its other advantages or disadvantages, threw over the economical relations existing between the mother-country and the colonies a veil of mystery that was wholly impenetrable—we left the question in such a position that the maintenance of the connection between the colonies and the mother-country ceased to be either desirable or practicable on any other grounds than those of heartfelt affection and constitutional sympathy on the part of the colonists, and the sense of the advantage of the protection afforded by the mother-country. He believed that the institutions which the colonies now enjoyed under the protection of England were as legitimate objects of affection and pride, as well calculated to promote their material and social well-being, and as favourable to progress, as any institutions which they might expect

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to obtain in exchange if the connection between them and the mother-country were severed. The contentment and loyalty which now prevailed in Canada, not among one class or race, but among all classes and all races, were, in his opinion, not less the result of the growth of that conviction, than of the belief that the Parliament and Government of this country were prepared to entrust the colonists with the powers of self-government and the control of their internal affairs. He was sanguine enough to hope that, if no untoward accidents should occur to mar the good feeling which now existed, we should, at the proper time, find that the colonies which were advancing to maturity were conscious of the responsibility which attached to them; and that, in a righteous cause, for the defence of the weak against the strong, of the oppressed against the oppressor, of the victim against the persecutor, they would show that they were anxious to share the glories of Englishmen, and were not unwilling to partake of their sacrifices and their burdens.
House adjourned till To-morrow.