HL Deb 06 February 1854 vol 130 cc261-8
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

My Lords, when I gave notice of the Motion which appears in my name upon the Orders—["To call the attention of the House to the state of this country with relation to the question of peace or war"] I certainly thought, from the rumours current, and from the language which was held in this House upon Tuesday last by the noble Lords the representatives of the Government here, that the proposal which had been made to the Emperor of Russia had been virtually, if not formally, rejected by him, and that his formal refusal to accede to that proposal would have arrived, I may say, immediately. And, further, I certainly considered that all negotiations for peace were virtually at an end. It appears, however, from the reports in the public papers, that up to this morning no formal reply to that proposal has been received from the Emperor of Russia. So far as I can understand it, there appears to be something of the semblance of negotiations still going on at Vienna. Under these circumstances, while there is even so faint a prospect of peace as I fear there is, I, for one, should be extremely sorry to occasion any discussion which might prevent a peaceful termination to those negotiations. I do not, therefore, wish to-night to go into the questions that are contained in the blue books which have been laid upon your Lordships' table, nor to discuss some very necessary points with reference to our present position, the consideration of which, however, I think Parliament cannot delay many days. Our position, whatever it is, is becoming so critical that I think Parliament must be accurately informed there upon before many days elapse. At the same time, not desiring to interfere with the faintest prospect of peace until all negotiations are formally closed, I do not wish to enter upon a discussion which must necessarily raise many paints. I shall, therefore, not draw attention to certain despatches which have been communicated to Parliament, but shall content myself with asking my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the simple yet important question, whether any answer has yet been received from time Emperor of Russia to those proposals which have been laid before him?—and I wish also to know what is the present state of our diplomatic relations with that Court. I learn from time public prints that the Russian Ministers, both in Paris and London, have actually retired from their functions, and I should wish to know what instructions, if any, have been given to our Minister at St. Petersburg? If my noble Friend will be kind enough to answer these questions, shall reserve for a short time any observations which I may have to make upon the position in which this country appears to be.

THE EARL OF CLARENDON

My Lords, I am very much obliged to my noble Friend for the consideration which he has shown in consenting to postpone for a short period any discussion which might arise upon the question of which he had given notice for this evening. If the question were discussed this evening, it might to some—though, perhaps, only to a slight—extent prejudice the chance which still remains of arriving at a peaceful solution of the difficulties of the Eastern question. But I think it right to state to your Lordships that, although Her Majesty's Government had some reason to believe that the answer of the Emperor of Russia to the note of the Conference sitting at Vienna—or rather, that the terms which His Majesty had stated as those on which he would be prepared to enter into further negotiations—have been received at Vienna, and were known there on Thursday last, it was only this afternoon that I received from Vienna official information of the facts. The official statement which I have received states that the Conference was immediately called together by Count Buol, and that the fresh proposals or counter-proposals were communicated to time representatives of England, France, and Prussia, by Count Buol. But, as I have stated, to your Lordships, the official announcement was only placed in my hands this afternoon, and I have not yet had time to place it in the hands of my Colleagues. I have only had time to show it to my noble Friend at the head of Her Majesty's Government. I should, therefore, prefer not to enter at this moment into any details in reference to this communication; but still I think it right to inform your Lordships that the terms of the propositions which have been submitted are such as to be quite unacceptable to the Conference, and, therefore, not of a character to be sent forward to the Ambassadors at Constantinople. Of that there is no doubt. With respect to my noble Friend's second question, I have to say that, on Saturday evening, Baron Brunnow called upon me at the Foreign Office, and placed in my hands a Note in which he announced that the answer which he had received from me, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, to the inquiry which he had been instructed to make by his Government, was not of such a kind as to permit of his continuing any longer diplomatic relations with this country; and that, therefore, the diplomatic relations between the Russian Government and this country must be for a time suspended. His Excellency took leave of me on Saturday evening, but at too late an hour to permit of his leaving London on that night—but I understood that he would depart early this morning. My Lords, I may observe that it is the earnest desire of Her Majesty's Government to give your Lordships the earliest and fullest information upon this and all other important points relating to this question, which is exciting so much anxiety throughout the whole of the country. My Lords, I shall, in the course of this week, endeavour to lay upon the table of your Lordships' House the Note which has been addressed to me by Baron Brunow, by the direction of Count Nesselrode, and my answer to it.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

My Lords, I have already expressed my opinion that the state of things which has arisen out of the conduct pursued by the Emperor of Russia could terminate in nothing but war. I expressed that opinion to one of the Ministers of the Crown as far back as Easter, and I declared it in this House in August last. I do not regret that the noble Marquess has thought proper to postpone his Motion, because I am of opinion that any retrospect into the conduct of Her Majesty's Government in these negotiations would not be in the slightest degree profitable to the country; but I should deeply regret if the noble Marquess, and those who think with him, or if Her Majesty's Ministers, could be deluded by anything which has recently taken place into relaxing in any degree, or, indeed, into not increasing to the utmost possible extent, their preparations for war. I have no doubt we are at the commencement of one of the most formidable wars in which this country has ever been engaged. I deeply regret that the people of this country do not appear at all aware of the magnitude and probable duration, or of the dismal consequences of that war. It is undoubtedly true that it is a war for which this country is not responsible, nor are Her Majesty's Ministers responsible for it. I acquit them altogether. I think, that, whatever they have said on the subject has been said with ability, and that they have been ably seconded by the various gentlemen holding diplomatic appointments at the different European Courts; but I do conjure Ministers to increase to the utmost possible extent every immediate preparation for war. War is inevitable; and what is absolutely essential to the preservation of the best interests of this country is, that on the breaking up of the ice we shall show a superior fleet in the Baltic. Are we able to do that? If we be not, Ministers are most deeply responsible to the country, for they have had their eyes opened, and could not have been in ignorance of the danger pressing upon us. I will say no more now. I desire that your Lordships should have the opportunity of considering the whole subject; but what I now earnestly press Ministers to do is to increase to the utmost extent the preparations for immediate war, and for a war which will be one of the gravest in which this country has ever engaged.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

I cannot refrain from saying that in a material part of what has fallen from the noble Earl who spoke last I fully concur. I agree with him in thinking that the war in which it appears we are about to engage may very probably turn out to be one of the most disastrous—[Murmurs]—I do not mean to this country, but disastrous to humanity, on account of the grave and extensive consequences which must result from it. On that account I have postponed my Motion to-night, for I regard the approaching war with apprehension. I cannot, however, entirely concur in the opinion which the noble Earl expressed as to the inutility of entering into any retrospect of what has happened. I think that a retrospect of the past would enable us to comprehend better the position in which we are placed, and which it is essential for Parliament and for the country to understand. I cannot agree with the noble Earl in thinking that Her Majesty's Ministers are entirely irresponsible for the present state of affairs. I certainly think, with the noble Earl, that what has been said, both by Her Majesty's Ministers and their diplomatic agents abroad, has been said with ability; but I think that very often the right thing has not been said, and that much ought to have been said which has been left unsaid. I, therefore, think we must have a discussion on the subject, partaking somewhat of a retrospective character; and, as the noble Earl at the head of Foreign Affairs seems anxious that there should be no delay on the subject, probably to-morrow week, if it should suit your Lordships' convenience, would not be too early a day to fix for the discussion. By that time, it appears to me impossible that Parliament should not be in a position to form a proper opinion on the question. It is evident that the present state of things cannot continue long; if our position shall be the same then that it is to-day, all must agree that it is a state of things that cannot last. With your Lordships' permission, I will give notice at once of my intention to bring forward a Motion on the subject to-morrow week.

EARL FITZWILLIAM

The noble Marquess says, that the present state of things cannot last long. In that I entirely agree with him, and I am the more desirous of saying so, because, in my opinion, the present state of things has already lasted much too long. If I were disposed to find fault with a single syllable of the statement which has been made by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, it would be this—that he still seems to indicate that there lurks in his mind even the shadow of a shade of hope that there can be any other termination to this state of things than war, as has been announced by the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) on the upper bench. With all that that noble Earl addressed to your Lordships I do not entirely agree; because I cannot believe that it was quite impossible to avert, at an early stage of the negotiations, the state of things at which we have now arrived. That, however, is a question which, however it may be determined in any man's mind, can make no alteration whatever in the course which Parliament and the country must now take. Whether Ministers deserve credit for the whole of the negotia- tions in which they have been engaged, or whether it be the opinion of any man that in some particular parts of the negotiations they may have failed, of this I am sure, that it is the duty of every man to afford them the strongest support when they shall be engaged in that war with which the noble Earl on the upper bench has threatened us. There is one point on which I am desirous of making an observation, arising out of what fell from the noble Earl. The noble Earl said, it appeared to him that the country was not fully aware of the tremendous character of the conflict in which we are about to engage. Whether the country is aware of it or not, I will not now stop to discuss; but of this I am sure—and I am sure of it from the communications I have had, and have the means of having, from some of the most important communities in this country—that there never was a war in which the Government was more cordially supported than it will be in that in which we are now about to engage. When the noble Earl said that the people of this country were not fully aware of the character of the war in which we are about to engage, I am confident he did not mean to impute to them any unwillingness to support the Government. I am sure the noble Earl did not mean to impute such a feeling to the people of this country, and I have adverted to the language he used only because it might possibly be misconstrued.

LORD BEAUMONT

My Lords, I cannot help observing, that the answer given by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is, even under the circumstances to which he has referred, more meagre than is either necessary or desirable. We are still left without any knowledge as to whether we are in a state of war or peace. I think that the time is now arrived, when we are entitled to distinct information on this head, and I think so for this reason; it was stated that, if what is now called the Turkish Note—I mean the one last agreed to by the Conference of Vienna—should be rejected by the Emperor of Russia, all further attempts to submit proposals to that Government would be abandoned. Now, if I understand my noble Friend rightly, the Emperor of Russia has refused to consent to the Vienna Note, and not only refused that, but stated terms on which he was willing to enter into fresh negotiations, which were of such a nature that it was utterly impossible for any other Power to admit them. If things are arrived at this point, further negotiation with the Emperor of Russia must be altogether out of the question: and when the Emperor of Russia has with- drawn his Minister at our Court—when he has refused to accept the proposition we tendered as our ultimatum—when, on the contrary, he insults Europe by offering proposals at the eleventh hour which he knows must be refused—I say that when we have arrived at a point like this, there can be no other alternative than war or disgrace. At this state of things—if I understand my noble Friend's answer—we have now arrived; and therefore I think we are entitled to know whether instructions have gone out from this country for the recall of our Minister from St. Petersburg, and whether all negotiations will be ended at St. Petersburg in the same manner as they are ended here? I am as reluctant as the noble Marquess near me to enter prematurely into discussion on this subject, nor am I now referring to the past. Since I have had time to read a large portion of the despatches on the table, I am willing to give Ministers more credit for what has passed than I was previously inclined to do; but I think we have now arrived at a point when hesitation or holding out false hopes or trying to make us believe that we are at peace, when we are actually at war, is a self delusive course which would be highly culpable. Let us look things boldly in the face as they are, and not hesitate to acknowledge that we are in a state of war, if such be the case. I think, therefore, I am not in any way differing from my noble Friend in respect of the propriety of deferring this subject if I ask my noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs this question simply—whether instructions have been sent for the withdrawal of our Ambassador from St. Petersburg, and for the cessation of further negotiations there?

THE EARL OF CLARENDON

I am sorry my noble Friend thinks the answer I gave to the noble Marquess was meagre. I thought I answered distinctly to the questions put to me. My noble Friend (Lord Beaumont) seems to think—and so, also, did the noble Earl (Earl Fitzwilliam)—that I am holding out hopes and expectations that fresh negotiations may be entered into, and that I entertain much hope that peace may still be preserved. I can assure them both that I held out no such expectations at all. These negotiations have—as I informed the noble Marquess—now been brought to a close at Vienna. I also stated, in my answer to the noble Marquess, that I had received the official information of this fact only this afternoon, and at a period too late to enable me to communicate it to my Colleagues, and that therefore I thought it better not to enter into details; but, anxious, as far as possible, to satisfy your Lordships' natural desire for information on this subject, I added that the new proposals put forward by Russia were wholly unacceptable—that they could not be transmitted to Constantinople, and that therefore there was an end of them. I have no reason to think that fresh negotiations on the subject will be renewed. It is perfectly true, I believe, that Count Orloff, who arrived at Vienna some days ago, and was about to depart after having executed that particular part of his mission which referred to the relations subsisting between Austria and Russia, has now prolonged his stay; but what object he has in this I really am unable to state. With respect to the other question asked by my noble Friend relative to instructions to Her Majesty's Minister at St. Petersburg, I can only tell him that, as it was half-past 6 o'clock on Saturday evening when Baron Brunow called upon me, and as it was necessary in this, as in all other measures we have adopted, or shall adopt, to have previous communication with the French Government, it has not yet been possible to send instructions to our Minister at St. Petersburg; but we have already held communication with the French Ambassador on the subject, and instructions will be sent to Sir Hamilton Seymour and General Castlebajac by their respective Governments to-morrow, which will place them on exactly the same footing with regard to the Court of St. Petersburg as is the Russian Ambassador here, and that diplomatic relations between the two countries and Russia will in the same manner be suspended.

House adjourned till To-morrow.