Lords Sitting of 6 February 1854

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament.—The Lord Plunket, after the Death of his Father.

CRIMINAL CODE—MALTA—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYbegged to ask his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies what course had been adopted by Her Majesty's Government with reference to the Criminal Code of Malta, passed last year by the Legislative Council, and sent home to be laid before Her Majesty in Council, which contained sundry enactments adverse to religious liberty? Whether the provisions of the said code, as far as related to offences against religion, of
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which a translation had been furnished to the House of Commons, in a return delivered upon the 15th of August last, had been adopted, altered, or cancelled? And whether Her Majesty's Government were prepared to furnish any further information of their intentions in the matter?
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he should be most happy to afford his noble Friend the fullest information in his power upon the subject. At the close of last Session a question had been raised in the other House of Parliament affecting the Criminal Code of Malta. That code was a matter, as their Lordships were no doubt aware, which had been under the consideration of successive Governments, as well as the Legislative Councils of Malta, for many years. In the course of that time there had been numerous attempts made to reform that code; but the greatest difficulties had always intervened, and it was not until the end of last Session that any effort for that purpose had been successful. A code, however, was then adopted, and, under the circumstances of the case, although objections had been taken to a portion of it, the Government felt that it would be most undesirable, unless it should be absolutely necessary, to throw back upon the island the consideration of the whole code, more particularly as the objections which had been taken to it here applied to one chapter only, which related to offences against religion. It would be remembered that power had been reserved to the Crown to enact ordinances upon this subject by an Order in Council. A Bill was now before the Council for that purpose, and he had advised that the code, as it had been sent home, should be re-enacted, with the single omission of the chapter relating to offences against religion.

POST-OFFICE ARRANGEMENTS— QUESTION.
LORD VIVIANcalled the attention of the noble Lord at the head of the Post Office to the irregularity of the mail trains on the several railways, and asked whether it was the intention of the Government to apply to Parliament for more stringent powers?
VISCOUNT CANNINGsaid, that no one could be more sensible than he was of the extreme inconvenience to which the public were exposed by the irregularity of the mail trains; but, as the powers which Parliament had given to the Postmaster

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General were of little or no avail, he had endeavoured by friendly communication with the different railway companies, to come to an understanding for a mutual system of fines to be imposed on the Post Office and the companies respectively, each checking the irregularities of the other. He thought it very desirable that some such system as this should be adopted as speedily as possible, because the continuation of these irregularities not only occasioned great public inconvenience, but might lead to prolonged disputes between the railway companies on the one hand, and the Post Office authorities on the other. He had thought it the best policy to deal amicably with the question in the first instance; but he should not hesitate to apply to Parliament for further powers in the event of the present arrangements proving insufficient to obtain regularity.

DISTRICT PAUPER SCHOOLS—QUESTION.
LORD LYTTELTONbegged to put to his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council the question of which he had given notice:—Whether the Government intended to propose any measure for establishing district pauper schools in single unions where they were sufficiently populous, or in the centre of a congregation of unions where they were small, which should be entirely unconnected with the workhouse or any other building, and should be in the true sense, agricultural and industrial schools for the reception of pauper children? Their Lordships were aware that, some years ago, the four inspectors, who were appointed to inspect workhouse schools had, without a single exception, in making their reports, testified strongly that no adequate good whatever was attainable from workhouse schools, and that the establishment of district schools was desirable. In consequence of this suggestion Parliament had attempted to supply a remedy by passing a permissive Act; but that had proved insufficient for the purpose Even a single board of guardians would be unwilling to take upon them the additional duty which would be thus thrown upon them, and that that duty had been thrown not only upon single boards, but upon a combination of boards had only increased the difficulty. The Act, therefore, had remained a dead letter, the only difficulty in the way being that the establishment of those schools would impose upon the boards of guardians the necessity for some little exertion. On the other hand it was one
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of those things which the boards of guardians would do if they were told that they must do it. Some years ago inspectors had been appointed for the purpose of inspecting workhouse schools, and every report which they had made testified strongly that no adequate good was attainable from workhouse schools. In consequence of this, the establishment of district schools had been suggested, but as the power to establish them had been only made "permissive" with the boards of guardians, who were usually incompetent to perform any except routine duties, save under supervision, the whole thing had proved nearly a dead letter.
EARL GRANVILLEentirely concurred with his noble Friend, that it was quite clear from all the reports of the inspectors that the workhouse schools were perfectly ineffective in training up pauper children. The schoolmasters in such places experienced the greatest inconvenience. If he were a well-trained schoolmaster he found himself in the most irksome situation. He was subjected to a great deal of jealousy upon the part of the governor of the workhouse; and he had to deal with children, who, from the physical and moral constitution which they inherited from their parents required to be treated with more than ordinary care; and yet he was entirely debarred from employing them in anything like industrial education; and be received as a salary only about half what would be given to the master of the commonest elementary school. The children were contaminated by their communication with the persons they associated with in the workhouse. The boys were brought up in the habits of laziness which they saw around them, and were contaminated with the language which they too frequently heard; while there was evidence most conclusive that a large portion of the girls, brought up as they were in communication with the mothers of illegitimate children, followed that course of life which, under the circumstances, might, perhaps naturally be expected of them. He believed that the plan to which his noble Friend had pointed of establishing district agricultural and industrial schools for the reception of pauper children, was the most important that could be devised for putting an end to the hereditary system of pauperism, which had, with truth, become in this country an hereditary disease. There had been cases in which the same family names had appeared on the work-

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house books for upwards of a century, and it was certainly desirous that such a disastrous state of things should be put an end to. There had been a good deal of communication upon the subject between the different departments concerned in it; and at this moment it was under the most anxious consideration of his noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Viscount Palmerston) with the view of framing a practical measure, which he hoped might be submitted to Parliament in the course of the present Session.

RUSSIA AND THE PORTE—QUESTION.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE: My Lords, when I gave notice of the Motion which appears in my name upon the Orders—["To call the attention of the House to the state of this country with relation to the question of peace or war"] I certainly thought, from the rumours current, and from the language which was held in this House upon Tuesday last by the noble Lords the representatives of the Government here, that the proposal which had been made to the Emperor of Russia had been virtually, if not formally, rejected by him, and that his formal refusal to accede to that proposal would have arrived, I may say, immediately. And, further, I certainly considered that all negotiations for peace were virtually at an end. It appears, however, from the reports in the public papers, that up to this morning no formal reply to that proposal has been received from the Emperor of Russia. So far as I can understand it, there appears to be something of the semblance of negotiations still going on at Vienna. Under these circumstances, while there is even so faint a prospect of peace as I fear there is, I, for one, should be extremely sorry to occasion any discussion which might prevent a peaceful termination to those negotiations. I do not, therefore, wish to-night to go into the questions that are contained in the blue books which have been laid upon your Lordships' table, nor to discuss some very necessary points with reference to our present position, the consideration of which, however, I think Parliament cannot delay many days. Our position, whatever it is, is becoming so critical that I think Parliament must be accurately informed there upon before many days elapse. At the same time, not desiring to interfere with the faintest prospect of peace until all negotiations are formally closed, I do not
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wish to enter upon a discussion which must necessarily raise many paints. I shall, therefore, not draw attention to certain despatches which have been communicated to Parliament, but shall content myself with asking my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the simple yet important question, whether any answer has yet been received from time Emperor of Russia to those proposals which have been laid before him?—and I wish also to know what is the present state of our diplomatic relations with that Court. I learn from time public prints that the Russian Ministers, both in Paris and London, have actually retired from their functions, and I should wish to know what instructions, if any, have been given to our Minister at St. Petersburg? If my noble Friend will be kind enough to answer these questions, shall reserve for a short time any observations which I may have to make upon the position in which this country appears to be.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I am very much obliged to my noble Friend for the consideration which he has shown in consenting to postpone for a short period any discussion which might arise upon the question of which he had given notice for this evening. If the question were discussed this evening, it might to some—though, perhaps, only to a slight—extent prejudice the chance which still remains of arriving at a peaceful solution of the difficulties of the Eastern question. But I think it right to state to your Lordships that, although Her Majesty's Government had some reason to believe that the answer of the Emperor of Russia to the note of the Conference sitting at Vienna—or rather, that the terms which His Majesty had stated as those on which he would be prepared to enter into further negotiations—have been received at Vienna, and were known there on Thursday last, it was only this afternoon that I received from Vienna official information of the facts. The official statement which I have received states that the Conference was immediately called together by Count Buol, and that the fresh proposals or counter-proposals were communicated to time representatives of England, France, and Prussia, by Count Buol. But, as I have stated, to your Lordships, the official announcement was only placed in my hands this afternoon, and I have not yet had time to place it in the hands of my Colleagues. I have only had time to show it to my noble Friend at the head of Her

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Majesty's Government. I should, therefore, prefer not to enter at this moment into any details in reference to this communication; but still I think it right to inform your Lordships that the terms of the propositions which have been submitted are such as to be quite unacceptable to the Conference, and, therefore, not of a character to be sent forward to the Ambassadors at Constantinople. Of that there is no doubt. With respect to my noble Friend's second question, I have to say that, on Saturday evening, Baron Brunnow called upon me at the Foreign Office, and placed in my hands a Note in which he announced that the answer which he had received from me, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, to the inquiry which he had been instructed to make by his Government, was not of such a kind as to permit of his continuing any longer diplomatic relations with this country; and that, therefore, the diplomatic relations between the Russian Government and this country must be for a time suspended. His Excellency took leave of me on Saturday evening, but at too late an hour to permit of his leaving London on that night—but I understood that he would depart early this morning. My Lords, I may observe that it is the earnest desire of Her Majesty's Government to give your Lordships the earliest and fullest information upon this and all other important points relating to this question, which is exciting so much anxiety throughout the whole of the country. My Lords, I shall, in the course of this week, endeavour to lay upon the table of your Lordships' House the Note which has been addressed to me by Baron Brunow, by the direction of Count Nesselrode, and my answer to it.
THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, I have already expressed my opinion that the state of things which has arisen out of the conduct pursued by the Emperor of Russia could terminate in nothing but war. I expressed that opinion to one of the Ministers of the Crown as far back as Easter, and I declared it in this House in August last. I do not regret that the noble Marquess has thought proper to postpone his Motion, because I am of opinion that any retrospect into the conduct of Her Majesty's Government in these negotiations would not be in the slightest degree profitable to the country; but I should deeply regret if the noble Marquess, and those who think with him, or if Her Majesty's Ministers, could be deluded by anything
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which has recently taken place into relaxing in any degree, or, indeed, into not increasing to the utmost possible extent, their preparations for war. I have no doubt we are at the commencement of one of the most formidable wars in which this country has ever been engaged. I deeply regret that the people of this country do not appear at all aware of the magnitude and probable duration, or of the dismal consequences of that war. It is undoubtedly true that it is a war for which this country is not responsible, nor are Her Majesty's Ministers responsible for it. I acquit them altogether. I think, that, whatever they have said on the subject has been said with ability, and that they have been ably seconded by the various gentlemen holding diplomatic appointments at the different European Courts; but I do conjure Ministers to increase to the utmost possible extent every immediate preparation for war. War is inevitable; and what is absolutely essential to the preservation of the best interests of this country is, that on the breaking up of the ice we shall show a superior fleet in the Baltic. Are we able to do that? If we be not, Ministers are most deeply responsible to the country, for they have had their eyes opened, and could not have been in ignorance of the danger pressing upon us. I will say no more now. I desire that your Lordships should have the opportunity of considering the whole subject; but what I now earnestly press Ministers to do is to increase to the utmost extent the preparations for immediate war, and for a war which will be one of the gravest in which this country has ever engaged.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE: I cannot refrain from saying that in a material part of what has fallen from the noble Earl who spoke last I fully concur. I agree with him in thinking that the war in which it appears we are about to engage may very probably turn out to be one of the most disastrous—[Murmurs]—I do not mean to this country, but disastrous to humanity, on account of the grave and extensive consequences which must result from it. On that account I have postponed my Motion to-night, for I regard the approaching war with apprehension. I cannot, however, entirely concur in the opinion which the noble Earl expressed as to the inutility of entering into any retrospect of what has happened. I think that a retrospect of the past would enable us to comprehend better the position in which we are placed, and

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which it is essential for Parliament and for the country to understand. I cannot agree with the noble Earl in thinking that Her Majesty's Ministers are entirely irresponsible for the present state of affairs. I certainly think, with the noble Earl, that what has been said, both by Her Majesty's Ministers and their diplomatic agents abroad, has been said with ability; but I think that very often the right thing has not been said, and that much ought to have been said which has been left unsaid. I, therefore, think we must have a discussion on the subject, partaking somewhat of a retrospective character; and, as the noble Earl at the head of Foreign Affairs seems anxious that there should be no delay on the subject, probably to-morrow week, if it should suit your Lordships' convenience, would not be too early a day to fix for the discussion. By that time, it appears to me impossible that Parliament should not be in a position to form a proper opinion on the question. It is evident that the present state of things cannot continue long; if our position shall be the same then that it is to-day, all must agree that it is a state of things that cannot last. With your Lordships' permission, I will give notice at once of my intention to bring forward a Motion on the subject to-morrow week.
EARL FITZWILLIAM: The noble Marquess says, that the present state of things cannot last long. In that I entirely agree with him, and I am the more desirous of saying so, because, in my opinion, the present state of things has already lasted much too long. If I were disposed to find fault with a single syllable of the statement which has been made by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, it would be this—that he still seems to indicate that there lurks in his mind even the shadow of a shade of hope that there can be any other termination to this state of things than war, as has been announced by the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) on the upper bench. With all that that noble Earl addressed to your Lordships I do not entirely agree; because I cannot believe that it was quite impossible to avert, at an early stage of the negotiations, the state of things at which we have now arrived. That, however, is a question which, however it may be determined in any man's mind, can make no alteration whatever in the course which Parliament and the country must now take. Whether Ministers deserve credit for the whole of the negotia-
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tions in which they have been engaged, or whether it be the opinion of any man that in some particular parts of the negotiations they may have failed, of this I am sure, that it is the duty of every man to afford them the strongest support when they shall be engaged in that war with which the noble Earl on the upper bench has threatened us. There is one point on which I am desirous of making an observation, arising out of what fell from the noble Earl. The noble Earl said, it appeared to him that the country was not fully aware of the tremendous character of the conflict in which we are about to engage. Whether the country is aware of it or not, I will not now stop to discuss; but of this I am sure—and I am sure of it from the communications I have had, and have the means of having, from some of the most important communities in this country—that there never was a war in which the Government was more cordially supported than it will be in that in which we are now about to engage. When the noble Earl said that the people of this country were not fully aware of the character of the war in which we are about to engage, I am confident he did not mean to impute to them any unwillingness to support the Government. I am sure the noble Earl did not mean to impute such a feeling to the people of this country, and I have adverted to the language he used only because it might possibly be misconstrued.
LORD BEAUMONT: My Lords, I cannot help observing, that the answer given by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is, even under the circumstances to which he has referred, more meagre than is either necessary or desirable. We are still left without any knowledge as to whether we are in a state of war or peace. I think that the time is now arrived, when we are entitled to distinct information on this head, and I think so for this reason; it was stated that, if what is now called the Turkish Note—I mean the one last agreed to by the Conference of Vienna—should be rejected by the Emperor of Russia, all further attempts to submit proposals to that Government would be abandoned. Now, if I understand my noble Friend rightly, the Emperor of Russia has refused to consent to the Vienna Note, and not only refused that, but stated terms on which he was willing to enter into fresh negotiations, which were of such a nature that it was utterly impossible for any other Power to admit them.

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If things are arrived at this point, further negotiation with the Emperor of Russia must be altogether out of the question: and when the Emperor of Russia has with- drawn his Minister at our Court—when he has refused to accept the proposition we tendered as our ultimatum—when, on the contrary, he insults Europe by offering proposals at the eleventh hour which he knows must be refused—I say that when we have arrived at a point like this, there can be no other alternative than war or disgrace. At this state of things—if I understand my noble Friend's answer—we have now arrived; and therefore I think we are entitled to know whether instructions have gone out from this country for the recall of our Minister from St. Petersburg, and whether all negotiations will be ended at St. Petersburg in the same manner as they are ended here? I am as reluctant as the noble Marquess near me to enter prematurely into discussion on this subject, nor am I now referring to the past. Since I have had time to read a large portion of the despatches on the table, I am willing to give Ministers more credit for what has passed than I was previously inclined to do; but I think we have now arrived at a point when hesitation or holding out false hopes or trying to make us believe that we are at peace, when we are actually at war, is a self delusive course which would be highly culpable. Let us look things boldly in the face as they are, and not hesitate to acknowledge that we are in a state of war, if such be the case. I think, therefore, I am not in any way differing from my noble Friend in respect of the propriety of deferring this subject if I ask my noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs this question simply—whether instructions have been sent for the withdrawal of our Ambassador from St. Petersburg, and for the cessation of further negotiations there?
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: I am sorry my noble Friend thinks the answer I gave to the noble Marquess was meagre. I thought I answered distinctly to the questions put to me. My noble Friend (Lord Beaumont) seems to think—and so, also, did the noble Earl (Earl Fitzwilliam)—that I am holding out hopes and expectations that fresh negotiations may be entered into, and that I entertain much hope that peace may still be preserved. I can assure them both that I held out no such expectations at all. These negotiations have—as I informed the noble Marquess—now been
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brought to a close at Vienna. I also stated, in my answer to the noble Marquess, that I had received the official information of this fact only this afternoon, and at a period too late to enable me to communicate it to my Colleagues, and that therefore I thought it better not to enter into details; but, anxious, as far as possible, to satisfy your Lordships' natural desire for information on this subject, I added that the new proposals put forward by Russia were wholly unacceptable—that they could not be transmitted to Constantinople, and that therefore there was an end of them. I have no reason to think that fresh negotiations on the subject will be renewed. It is perfectly true, I believe, that Count Orloff, who arrived at Vienna some days ago, and was about to depart after having executed that particular part of his mission which referred to the relations subsisting between Austria and Russia, has now prolonged his stay; but what object he has in this I really am unable to state. With respect to the other question asked by my noble Friend relative to instructions to Her Majesty's Minister at St. Petersburg, I can only tell him that, as it was half-past 6 o'clock on Saturday evening when Baron Brunow called upon me, and as it was necessary in this, as in all other measures we have adopted, or shall adopt, to have previous communication with the French Government, it has not yet been possible to send instructions to our Minister at St. Petersburg; but we have already held communication with the French Ambassador on the subject, and instructions will be sent to Sir Hamilton Seymour and General Castlebajac by their respective Governments to-morrow, which will place them on exactly the same footing with regard to the Court of St. Petersburg as is the Russian Ambassador here, and that diplomatic relations between the two countries and Russia will in the same manner be suspended.
House adjourned till To-morrow.