Lords Sitting of 9 August 1854

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Consolidated Fund(Appropriation); Customs.
2a Russian Government Securities.
3a Militia (No. 2); Militia (Scotland).

RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT SECURITIES BILL—RESOLUTION.
EARL FORTESCUE moved the Resolution of which he had given notice—
"That as regards the Russian Government Securities Bill, the war with Russia, and the attempt now making by that Power to procure a loan for the carrying on of that war, render it urgent that every means should be immediately taken to prevent any British capital from being applied to the objects of that or any future Russian loan during the continuance of the war; it is therefore reasonable that this Bill should, notwithstanding the late period at which it has been brought up from the House of Commons, be taken into immediate consideration; and if the House shall think fit so to order, be read a second time this day."
He had only to say, in asking their Lordships' assent to this Resolution, that whatever might be their Lordships' opinion as to the merits of the Bill, he thought they would agree that a measure which had for its object to defeat a great financial operation now being carried on by the Russian Government, after having passed the House of Commons by a large majority, ought not to be put aside without discussion in that House on the simple ground of its having come up from the other House at so late a period of the Session.
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he should certainly support the Motion of his noble Friend, and, if it were agreed to by their Lordships, would then support the Bill of which his noble Friend was to move the second reading. He was not, however, at all prepared to say that this Bill, even in the form in which it had come up from the House of Commons, was rendered very necessary on account of the present state of the law, and he should be sorry to recognise any such proposition. At the same time the Bill had been de-

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nuded of many of the objectionable features which they had reason to believe it contained on its first introduction into the other House; and he should be sorry, either on the part of the Government or his own, to throw any obstacles in the way of passing a measure which had been considered by the other House of Parliament necessary to enable Her Majesty's Government to have more easily available means at command for checking the financial operations of the public enemy. He thought it desirable that their Lordships should know that Government had not neglected the subject to which the Bill referred. The moment that there was an announcement made on the Exchanges of this and other countries that Russia was about to endeavour to contract a loan, Her Majesty's Government, without twenty-four hours' delay, took the opinion of the law officers of the Crown how far it would be legal for British subjects to have any concern with a transaction the obvious intentions of which was to enable a foreign Power to raise forces which would be used for a purpose adverse to this Crown and nation. The law officers of the Crown gave it as their distinct and positive opinion that it would be high treason on the part of any British subject to be parties to such a transaction; and thereupon, without a moment's delay, his noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office wrote to our Ministers at foreign Courts, and to the Consuls in the chief towns of the Continent, desiring them to make public intimation, and to spread it as widely as possible, that British subjects would incur this heavy penalty if they involved themselves in any transaction connected with the proposed loan. That their Lordships might see that these steps were as immediate as he had mentioned, he might state that even from the United States of North America answers had been received to the communications sent out at that time. This was not the only step taken by Her Majesty's Government; for they communicated also with our Ministers at foreign Courts, desiring them to make an earnest appeal to the Courts to which they were accredited, that they would, to the utmost of their power, throw obstacles in the way of this loan, inasmuch as we had a right to consider that its negotiation would be at variance with the character of neutrality or of alliance existing between these Courts and Her Majesty. Answers to those notes likewise had been received. He mentioned these facts in order that their Lordships might
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see, in the first place, that this question had not been neglected by Her Majesty's Government; and, in the second, that strong powers already existed to meet the case against which this measure was directed. At the same time, thinking it well, if it were possible, by making this offence a misdemeanor where the present law made it high treason, and thus mitigating the penalty, to render it more easy to thwart the enemy's measures—assuming that there might be some merit in the Bill—but, at any rate, feeling that it would be undesirable that their Lordships should throw it out when the other house had passed it for a limited but important object—feeling that it would do no harm, and might do some good—he trusted their Lordships would consent to the Motion of his noble Friend and pass the Bill.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that after the reasons stated by the noble Duke, he certainly did not mean to offer any opposition to this Bill. As regarded the Resolution, he thought it quite clear that any measure which the Lower House sent up, even at this late period of the Session, having relation to the position in which the country stood at present, involved in war with Russia, did constitute a case of urgency. There could be no doubt whatever that the Resolution would allow the Bill to be proceeded with. With respect to the general question of their Lordships' Resolution of May last, he was decidedly of opinion that it would operate beneficially, by affording more time for the consideration of legislative measures in that House, and that it would thus work favourably to the conservation of the privileges of the other House of Parliament, as well as of their Lordships.
Resolution agreed to.

RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT SECURITIES BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL FORTESCUE moved the second reading of the Bill. The noble Earl said, that notwithstanding the statement of the noble Duke, that everything that could be done by the Government, under the existing law, had been done to prevent British subjects from dealing in the securities to which allusion had been made, he could not but think that, in the present state of affairs, this measure was necessary. It should be understood that the Bill did not at all extend the severity of the common law or the pains and penalties of high

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treason beyond their present limits, but simply imposed the penalty of a misdemeanor on all British subjects, at home or abroad, who might knowingly or wilfully trade in Russian securities during the continuance of the war. There had been three principal objections, somewhat contradictory of each other brought against the measure—first, that it would be inoperative, inasmuch as it would be easily evaded; secondly, that it was unnecessary, inasmuch as no British subject would embark in such dealings; thirdly, that it would be a vexatious infringement of the freedom of the subject in commercial and monetary affairs. To these he would reply—first, that though hardly any Act could be so framed that the perverse ingenuity of some rogue might not evade it, this Bill at least made the law clear, and inflicted a penalty which could be easily enforced; secondly, that, though the higher class of our money dealers might scorn the dirty work, it was not clear that the gains of 2 or 3 per cent might not induce less reputable persons to take an interest in a loan of this description if they could do so with impunity; and thirdly, that there was no just ground for representing as oppressive to any one a simple measure of public security, taken at a moment when we were engaged in a contest of the most formidable character, to prevent the resources of our own country from being applied to the service of our enemy in carrying on that contest. Another objection which had been made was, that the measure was not introduced or taken up, in the first instance, by Her Majesty's Government. The noble Duke had stated the reasons why the Government had not introduced some such Bill. But, although the Bill was brought forward by an independent Member, it was generally approved of by the responsible Ministers of the Crown in the other House; and having been submitted to the law officers of the Crown, who made such alterations as they thought would confine its operation strictly to the objects which it was intended to effect, it had been sanctioned by very large majorities of that House. He wished it had been intrusted here to some one better qualified than himself to do justice to its importance, but, having been requested to move it by those most interested in its success, he had felt it his duty to do so, and he hoped that their Lordships would give it their support.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he did not rise
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to oppose the Bill, on the contrary he approved of it; and, he must say, he had never heard the object of any Bill more lucidly explained than had been done in the present case by his noble Friend. He could not help observing that the support given to the measure by the noble Duke (the Duke of Newcastle) on the part of the Government seemed to him but of a tepid, if not of a cold, description. He apprehended that by the common law of England any contract made between an English subject and an alien enemy during time of war was illegal, and, under certain circumstances, might amount to high treason. He did not, however, think that the common law by itself, and without the assistance of a statutable enactment, was sufficient to secure the attainment of the object now in view; because, by the law as it stood now, there was no power by which it could be enforced, and therefore, under certain circumstances, an English subject might deal in the scrip of a Russian loan with impunity. If, therefore, they passed the Bill as it at present stood, it would be almost entirely nugatory. He apprehended that one of the great objects sought by the measure was to prevent the negotiation of scrip by subjects of the realm of England in foreign parts; but as it stood at present it failed entirely in accomplishing that intention. He suggested, therefore, that that defect should be remedied by the insertion of a clause to the effect that any offence committed against the Act beyond the limits of the United Kingdom might be inquired into, dealt with, and punished in the same manner as if it had been committed in the county of Middlesex. Such a clause would be effective against the operations of British subjects in scrip of this description in Germany, France, or any part of the world; but, inasmuch as by the common law of the land indictable offences could only be dealt with through the medium of a grand jury, which could have no cognisance of an offence committed in a foreign country, with certain exceptions, under particular Acts, in the cases of felony, such a provision was absolutely necessary to render the Bill in any degree useful. He trusted, therefore, such a provision would be added in Committee, and he should be happy to give his assistance in drawing it up.
TEE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, no doubt his noble Friend who had charge of the Bill would be most happy to avail him

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self of the assistance of the noble and learned Lord in preparing such a clause, which, however, might be more conveniently added on the third reading.
EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he felt fully the value of the suggestion urged by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Campbell), but he feared, considering the near approach of the prorogation of Parliament, that any alteration of the Bill would be fatal to its passing during the present Session.
LORD CAMPBELLdid not wish to throw the slightest obstacle in the way of the Bill passing; but he assured the House if it was adopted in its present state it would not be of the slightest value, and he therefore hoped that such a clause as he had suggested might be added, notwithstanding the late period of the Session.
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, he thought his noble and learned Friend had amply justified him for the "tepid" support which it was said he had given to the measure; for he (Lord Campbell) had clearly proved that if it was passed in its present form, it would be utterly and entirely useless. He (the Duke of Newcastle) was not willing to pass a measure which, in the opinion of so eminent a Judge, would be a dead letter, but would rather allow it to drop if it was to remain liable to such condemnation. What he should propose was, that they should now pass the second reading, negative the Committee, and fix the third reading for the following day; they could then add the clause suggested by his noble and learned Friend, to which there would still be time to obtain the assent of the House of Commons.
Bill read 2a; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
House adjourned till To-morrow.