Lords Sitting of 8 August 1854

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Kerr, after the death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Mayo County Advances.
2a Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges (No. 2); Public Health; Metropolitan Sewers.
Reported—Militia (No. 2); Militia (Scotland); Militia (Ireland); Militia Ballots Suspension; Militia Pay.
3a Merchant Shipping Acts Repeal; Duchy of Cornwall Office; Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges (No. 2); Public Health; Metropolitan Sewers.

EPISCOPAL AND CAPITULAR ESTATES MANAGEMENT (1854) BILL.
Commons Amendments considered (according to Order).
THE BISHOP OF LONDONhoped that their Lordships would not agree with all the Amendments, as he considered some of them injurious in their operation, especially the clause relating to the computation of the duration of lives, which he thought ought not to be made at a uniform rate of interest. The Amendments intended to carry into effect a principle embodied in a Report which their Lordships had rejected on a former occasion. The lessees, he thought, had no ground of complaint; and under the present system no less than 621 estates had been enfranchised in a satisfactory manner. He thought, therefore, they ought not to consent to any alteration in that system, especially as at this period of the Session they could not proceed to a minute discussion of the Amendments.
THE EARL OF CHICHESTERalso opposed the Amendments, on much the same ground as had been stated by the right rev. Prelate—namely, that they sought to introduce into an Act which was intended to facilitate the enfranchisement of church property a compulsory power with respect to arbitration; and anything which had that effect was highly objectionable. He particularly opposed the mode of computation provided in the Clause H—namely, that laid down by the Episcopal and Capitular Revenues Commissioners in their Report of 1850.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he could not deny that there was considerable force in the objections which the right rev. Prelate had stated to the clause relating to the computations on the duration of lives, and he should, therefore, be ready to amend it by the omission of the words "and such computation shall be made throughout at a uniform rate of interest," as suggested by the right rev. Prelate. He must say he did not see any force in the objections taken by the noble Earl (the Earl of Chichester) to the clause rendering arbitration compulsory in cases where proposals for enfranchisement were made to the Commissioners, especially as the noble

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Earl expressly assented to arbitration being made permissive.
Clause amended.
THE EARL OF CHICHESTERmoved to strike out certain words in Clause H, which would have the effect of leaving the clause as follows—
"In computing the due regard to be paid to the just and reasonable claims of the present holders of lands under lease or otherwise, arising from the long-continued practice of renewal, the basis of compensation may, at the discretion and with the approval of the Church Estates Commissioners, be according to the recommendations laid down in the Lords' Report on the same subject in 1851."
On Motion that the clause, as originally worded, stand part of the Bill, their Lordships divided:—Content 16; Not Content 11: Majority 5.
Amendment negatived.
Several Amendments agreed to; other Amendments agreed to, with Amendments; and other Amendments objected to; and (after Debate) agreed to, with Amendments; and Bill, with the Amendments, returned to the Commons.

NATIONAL GALLERY, &c. (DUBLIN) BILL.
Commons Amendments considered (according to Order), and agreed to.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL.
The Commons Amendments to the Amendments made by the Lords, together with the Commons Reason for disagreeing to One of the said Amendments, considered (according to Order).
Moved, not to insist on the Amendment to which the Commons have disagreed; objected to; and (after short Debate), on Question, Whether to insist on the said Amendment? Resolved in the Negative.
The Amendments made by the Commons to the Amendments made by the Lords agreed to; and a Message sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

PUBLIC REVENUE AND CONSOLIDATED FUND CHARGES (No. 2) BILL.
EARL GRANVILLE moved to resolve—
"That inasmuch as the Provisions of the Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges (No. 2) Bill are precisely similar to those of the Public Revenue and Consolidated Fund Charges Bill as the same were amended in Committee in this House, the Report of which Amendments was, on the 29th day of July, ordered to be received that Day Three Months, the peculiar Circumstances under which the said (No. 2) Bill has been sent up to this House from the House of Commons make it reasonable that the same be allowed to be
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read a Second Time this Day, if the House shall think fit so to order."
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, and for Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 to be considered, in order to their being dispensed with on the said Bill, read.
On Question, agreed to.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that the loose manner in which Bills emanating from various departments of the Government were often drawn, led him to ask with whom the official responsibility rested? This might be excusable in private Members, but it certainly was not in the Government, who had the means of procuring the requisite legal assistance. A striking instance of the carelessness of which he complained was afforded by the former Bill on this subject, which, as originally drawn, actually rendered the salaries of the Judges subject to an annual Vote. This appeared to be so monstrous that while the Bill was still in the House of Commons he communicated with his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack upon the subject, and the objectionable provision was in consequence struck out. The Bill, however, even as it came up to their Lordships, was still calculated to do injustice in many quarters, and especially in that part of the country with which he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) was more immediately connected. It was, however, materially improved by the Select Committee to which it was sent.
EARL GRANVILLEthought the noble Marquess had overstated the nature of the inaccuracies in the Bill, which, generally speaking, were merely of a verbal character. The only Amendments which involved a question of policy was, as to whether the Commissioners of Lunacy and the police magistrates should be included in the schedule.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEsaid, that when the Bill was introduced, the Master of the Rolls and Masters of Chancery in Ireland were actually made subject to an annual Vote; and that could not be considered as a mere verbal inaccuracy or mistake.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, there were eight instances in one of the schedules of the Bill in which provision was authorised to be made for certain charges, "&c.," and the word "ditto" was frequently repeated, without there being any possibility of interpreting the meaning to be attached to the word. Was this at all

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desirable, or to be tolerated in a Bill dealing with the appropriation of the public money? In the original Bill the official conduct of the officers of the Irish courts of law was rendered liable to be canvassed annually in a Committee of Supply, and the Government had not given way upon the matter until they found themselves in a minority, when they agreed to adopt the Bill as it now stood. He rejoiced to find that the Committee throughout had taken a different view of the case. But this was far from being all, for it was the intention of the framers of the Bill to include in it the police magistrates of London, and that intention was not carried out only in consequence of an adverse vote. In fact, the Bill had been prepared with such want of consideration and justice, that no reserve whatever was made for the life interest of persons holding office during good behaviour, and it was only by a vote of Parliament that a saving clause was inserted. There were considerable objections to the Bill as it stood; but at that late period of the Session he was not desirous of proposing any Amendment, or of throwing any difficulties in the way of Government; but several alterations might be made which would be of a beneficial character. In some cases the Statutes had been inaccurately referred to. He would merely mention one instance, where a Statute was referred to under the head of "Scotch Clergy," when, instead of referring to the Scotch clergy, it related to the custody of offenders. In fact, he could call attention to several Statutes, showing, if he might use so unparliamentary a term, the "slipslop" manner in which the whole of the Bill had been drawn. A high authority in another place said—
"The Committee of the House of Lords had made a very injudicious charge on very insufficient grounds. They reported that they had not before them sufficient information to enable them to determine whether these pensions, superannuations, and similar charges ought to remain on the Consolidated Fund, or to be voted on the annual Estimates; and then, instead of sending to the Treasury for further information, they struck these items out of the schedule. The House must come back to the subject, and make cleaner work at a future time."
Now, in answer to this statement, he must be allowed to say, that he had applied to the public officers of the Treasury to know whom he was to ask for any documentary evidence which it might he necessary to consult, and he had made an application
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at the Treasury for the very information which was wanting, and which their Lordships were complained of for not asking for. The answer which was given to his application was, that they had no authority to furnish the information he required, but they would apply for authority to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The next day the Chancellor of the Exchequer was applied to, and he declined to furnish the information. He (Lord Monteagle) certainly felt himself called on to complain, that after the information had been asked for and refused by the head of the Treasury Board himself, the absence of that information, and the supposed neglect of the Committee, should be made a ground of complaint against them. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said in another place—
"In the case of charges involving any great political question, or appearing to involve a question of good faith and of public contract, in which vested interests, which might fairly be so called, were concerned, he had left on the Consolidated Fund whatever he had found upon it."
As bearing upon this point, he (Lord Monteagle) might mention the case of Mr. Augustus Stapleton. Mr. Stapleton was private secretary to the late Mr. Canning; and on the death of Mr. Canning, George IV. applied by letter to Lord Ripon, the head of the succeeding Government, to make some provision for Mr. Stapleton, on the ground of the affection which His Majesty had entertained towards Mr. Canning. Mr. Stapleton was in consequence appointed to the office of Commissioner of Customs, at a salary of 1,400 l. a year, and he held, in addition, two small offices in the West Indies, which increased his emoluments to 1,900 l. a year. When Earl Grey's Government came into office a large reduction was made in the expenditure of the Revenue Board; and upon an application being made to Mr. Stapleton, he agreed to resign the three offices which he then held, in consideration of a retiring allowance of 900 l. a year. This sum was granted by the Government of the late Earl Grey, and, in consequence of the arrangement, a sum of 21,000 l. had been saved to the country, and Mr. Stapleton, under peculiar circumstances, had been in the receipt of 900 l. a year. The peculiar circumstances were, that Mr. Stapleton had himself sought to be relieved from the position of being a mere incumbrance upon the public, and had applied to successive

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Governments to give him employment in consideration of his retiring allowance. Now, he was quite satisfied that there was not one of their Lordships who would hesitate to express an opinion that the engagement with Mr. Stapleton was one which ought not to be broken. It was certainly a case which came within the speech of Mr. Gladstone, and was a case of good faith and contract, by which the public had effected a saving of 21,000 l. in the interval between entering into the contract and the time at which it was proposed to throw Mr. Stapleton's allowance upon the Committee of Supply. It might be said that reliance should be placed upon the justice of the House of Commons; but he was not disposed to trust more to the House of Commons than to any other fallible persons; and not only must a reliance be placed upon the justice of the House of Commons, but they would have to depend upon the discretion or indiscretion of the Government of the day. In the course of this very Session, the salary paid to the Bishop of New Zealand had been withdrawn by the Government, though he had not the least doubt that the House of Commons would most willingly have agreed to its continuance. He did not think their Lordships had acted upon an unwise principle when they said that they would have evidence upon the whole matter before they came to a vote upon it; but, on the contrary, he thought they were quite right in the course they had taken, and that they had done good service to the public in the changes which they had introduced into the Bill. He would here take the liberty of referring to a report which was being circulated, to the effect that there was an intention to transfer to a Select Committee of the House of Commons the financial business of the country. If it were really true that such an intention existed, he thought it would be a greater change in the constitution and free institutions of England than had ever yet been propounded. At present the House of Commons, in its collective capacity as the Commons of England, had the power of considering its Estimates and of voting its money, and the moment it brought itself to transfer to a Select Committee functions of that description, its constitutional rights—its power over the public purse—would be lost, its proceedings would be conducted without deliberation and responsibility, and the financial business of the
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country would be conducted upon a similar plan to the bureau scheme of foreign countries, instead of by an open system of examination and deliberation.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that as there were several Members of the Select Committee present he would leave them to say whether he had given an accurate description of the Bill, or whether it was such a monstrosity as had been described to them. With regard to one example which the noble Lord had given for the purpose or showing that it was an imperfect measure, it regarded a matter of Scotch law. Now, he (Earl Granville) must say that, although he might be willing to take the noble Lord as an authority on a question of Irish law, he was certainly disinclined to accept it upon matters affecting the Scotch law. His noble Friend said that the most unfounded accusation had been brought against the Select Committee of their Lordships' House, because, so far from their having been able to obtain information to enable them to judge of the justice or injustice of particular items, his noble Friend himself applied to the Treasury for information, and was refused it. His noble Friend, with his usual courtesy, had given him (Earl Granville) notice of his intention to bring forward this subject; and he had, therefore, been enabled to ascertain the facts of the case. It appeared that his noble Friend had had some communication with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that the latter, in answer to a question put to him, stated to his noble Friend that the persons most competent to give information on the subject of this Bill were two gentlemen of the names of Anderson and Shelley, engaged in the Treasury. He found that his noble Friend then wrote to Mr. Shelley, and requested both him and Mr. Anderson to call on him and bring the papers relating to the Bill. [Lord MONTEAGLE explained that he did not ask them to bring papers with them.] At all events, his noble Friend asked them for information respecting the Bill, and his noble Friend began his letter by saying that he had been authorised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do so. The answer of Mr. Shelley was, that he and Mr. Anderson would be most happy to call on the noble Lord, but requested that he would be good enough to specify what papers he desired. His noble Friend then replied, that it was a matter of no consequence, that he had only written the note to save time, that the Committee would

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meet the same afternoon, and would determine what papers it would call for. However, next day his noble Friend called on these gentlemen, and asked somewhat vaguely for information, and, thinking that he had the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for doing so, they afforded him certain information. It was true that when his noble Friend asked them to give him the Estimates, which had not then been laid before the House of Commons, they told him that to furnish them was beyond their discretion, and that they must refer to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject; and when the matter was mentioned to that right hon. Gentleman, he directed them not to give the Estimates to any one single Member of Parliament. In a conversation he (Earl Granville) had had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the latter assured him that when the noble Lord asked him as to the proper source of information, he had no notion that the noble Lord intended to go and ask for this particular information, he being hostile to the Bill and to the Government proposals; at the same time it never entered the head of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to withhold any information from a Committee of their Lordships' House. Whilst the Government were, of course, bound to give information to both Houses of Parliament, and to any Select Committee, he did not think they were bound to allow their subordinates to give official information privately to any Member who might wish to select weak points for attack, and entirely pass over the strong points of the ease, and thus to place himself in a position infinitely superior to that of the person who had to defend the Bill, and who was left uninformed as to the exact course which such an adverse Member meant to take. Now, they must all admire the zeal which his noble Friend displayed in any cause which he undertook, and knew that no one was more accurately acquainted than his noble Friend with the particulars contained in Parliamentary documents; but they knew at the same time nobody was so skilful in extracting information for the purpose he had in hand both from friend and foe. He meant no offence to his noble Friend by making this remark; but he could not help mentioning the circumstance that when he (Earl Granville) was at the Board of Trade, and when on one occasion his noble Friend meant to attack that department, with regard to some particular question, he found his noble Friend closeted
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with the secretary of the Board one hour before the debate was to come on. It was obvious that by seeking information in this manner the noble Lord placed the Minister who had to oppose him in a very unfair and unequal position. He had also heard it commonly stated that a certain witness, who was likely to be subjected to cross-examination in a Select Committee by his noble Friend, boasted of his presence of mind in having declined an invitation to breakfast he had received from his noble Friend for the morning of the day on which he was to give evidence; and the party invited said that he would be most happy to breakfast with his noble Friend on any day subsequent to his examination. His noble Friend had that night made reference to a rumour which he said had reached him regarding the intentions of the Government and of the other House. He (Earl Granville) had heard of other idle rumours, with which, however, he would not trouble their Lordships. One, concerning the relations of the Government and the Bank of England, was a case in point, and had been most completely refuted when the proper time came for it. He did not happen to have heard this rumour to which his noble Friend now alluded; but he would only say, when mere rumours, without any substance in them, were brought forward for the purpose of an attack, that he must in future decline either to defend or to deny them until some more tangible and definite ground was laid before the House.
LORD MONTEAGLEreplied. He said that it was true he went to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for information relating to the subject of the Committee's inquiry; but he was not aware that he had taken a course in any way unusual. During the time he had held office there had always been an officer at the Treasury to meet inquiries made there, and to whom every Member of Parliament made application as to whether such and such a paper could be granted or not; and it was a ground of constant complaint on the part of the Government that Motions were made for papers without previous inquiries being made as to whether they could be produced.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he could not allow the discussion to close without entering his protest against the fairness of the account of the transactions in the Select Committee given by both the noble Lord who spoke last and the noble Mar-

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guess (the Marquess of Clanricarde). The question having been referred to a Select Committee, the Government were defeated in the Committee, and various alterations and amendments were made in the Bill. But these various amendments were made solely upon grounds of policy, and not, as noble Lords had said, because blunders had been discovered in the drawing and printing of the Bill, or because the Government had sought in any case to violate the principle of the measure.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that as it had been intimated that something very sweeping was to be done hereafter, he must express a hope that the Government would proceed with the greatest caution and deliberation, for he was inclined to think that, so far as they had gone, there had been, per incuriam, some departure from the principle of this Bill, as originally laid down. With all the respect that he entertained for the privileges of the other House, he thought there were functions which it could not constitutionally exercise, and the assumption of which by that House must lead to very mischievous consequences. The House of Commons was a legislative and inquisitorial, but not an executive body, and it could not undertake executive functions with advantage to the country. He understood that the foremost man in that House, whom they all regarded with respect and admiration, had expressed great alarm at any increase of its functions. He did not think that the House of Commons was at all fitted to determine every year what the salary of every functionary should be, nor was it expedient, after both Houses had with due deliberation fixed the salary of a particular office, that that salary should be transferred from the Consolidated Fund to the annual Votes, and that the House of Commons should every year be called on to decide what should be the amount of that salary, and whether the officer had that year done his duty properly. The House of Commons had not time to perform the duties imposed upon it by the constitution, and it would be far better that the salaries should be paid by the Treasury than by the House of Commons.
On Question, agreed to.
Bill read 2a accordingly.
Committee negatived.
Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 considered (according to Order), and dispensed with on the said Bill.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
EARL GRANVILLE moved to resolve—
"That as the Public Health Bill constitutes a new Board of Health, inasmuch as Cholera exists in many parts of the Kingdom, and various sanitary Regulations which can only be carried out effectually by the said Board imperatively are required, the Circumstances which render Legislation on the Matter of the said Bill expedient are of such Urgency as to render the immediate Consideration of the said Bill necessary; and it is therefore reasonable that the same be allowed to be read a Second Time this Day, if the House should think fit so to order."
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that the law under which the Board of Health was constituted would expire at the end of the present Session of Parliament; and that the necessity for the present measure was rendered the more urgent by the increase which had taken place in the mortality arising from cholera. The noble Earl stated that the deaths from these causes in the metropolis were, for the week ending July 15—Cholera, 5; Diarrhœa, 46; Total, 51: for the week ending July 22—Cholera, 26; Diarrhœa, 58; Total, 84: for the week ending July 29—Cholera, 133; Diarrhea, 84; Total, 217: and for the week ending August 5—Cholera, 399; Diarrhœa, 148; Total, 547.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading; and for Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 to be considered, in order to their being dispensed with on the said Bill, and the Lords Summoned, read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
On Question, agreed to.
Bill read 2a accordingly.
Committee negatived.
Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 considered (according to Order) and dispensed with on the said Bill.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

METROPOLITAN SEWERS BILL.
Moved to resolve—
"That as the Metropolitan Sewers Bill is necessary for the Continuance of the Powers of the Metropolitan Sewers Commission, and for increasing the Facilities for constructing Sewers, and as such Powers and Facilities are of essential Importance to the Public Health, especially in reference to the Existence of the Cholera in Parts of the Metropolis, the Circumstances of this Bill present such a Case of Urgency as to render necessary the immediate Consideration of the said Bill; and that accordingly the said Bill be allowed to be read a Second Time this Day, if the House shall think fit so order."
On Question, agreed to.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading; and for Standing Orders Nos. 37 and

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38 to be considered, in order to their being dispensed with on the said Bill, and the Lords Summoned, read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
(After short debate) on Question, agreed to.
Bill read 2a accordingly.
Committee negatived.
Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38 dispensed with.
Bill read 3a.
Amendments made; Amendments moved; objected to; and, on Question, negatived; and Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

PUBLIC OFFICES.
LORD REDESDALE moved for a Return of all Houses, Buildings, &c., hired for official Purposes, including Crown Property, showing the Situation of each, the Term for which it is held, the Amount of Rent and Taxes with which it is chargeable, and the Purposes to which it is applied. His object was to call the attention of the Government, and also of the country, to the condition generally of the public offices, which, as they at present existed, were most inconvenient. There was but one locality in which they could be brought together with advantage to the public business and the appearance of the metropolis, as well as with a view to economy—of course, he meant by the erection of large buildings in the neighbourhood of Whitehall and Downing Street, which were conveniently situated with reference to the Houses of Parliament. The site to which he wished particularly to direct attention was the space extending from the back of Downing Street to the back of Great George Street, and which ran parallel with Parliament Street. That spot was covered with poor and very old buildings, much out of repair, most of which must shortly be pulled down; and if they were rebuilt, the new buildings would, of course, greatly add to the value of the property, and therefore the present opportunity ought not to be lost in obtaining a plot of land so well adapted for the purposes of public offices before the value of the land increased. By the plan which he would suggest, Parliament Street might be made much wider by taking into it the space on which King Street now stood, and thus making a better and more convenient approach to the Houses of Parliament than now existed. He would suggest to the Government the expediency of obtaining this land as soon as possible, especially as it had been the
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subject of consideration for private speculation. He also wished to mention a matter having reference to the Duchy of Cornwall, and which was connected with a Bill which had been passed to enable the officers of the Duchy to obtain an office in lieu of the rooms they had vacated at Somerset house, for the accommodation of the Board of Inland Revenue. He wished to point out the position in which the Duchy of Cornwall was placed with reference to the accommodation of the Prince of Wales, whose residence, Marlborough House, was now occupied as a Picture Gallery and Museum of Practical Art. That residence would, probably, be soon wanted by the Prince of Wales; and as it was probable it would suffer some dilapidations from its present uses, rendering it unfit for a residence, and as Burlington House had been recently purchased for the purpose of being converted into public offices, he would suggest whether it would not be desirable to exchange that building for Marlborough House, and assign it as a residence for the Prince of Wales; while accommodation could also be found for the offices of the Duchy of Cornwall in the buildings in the court-yard of Burlington House. The residence of the Prince of Wales would then belong to the Duchy of Cornwall, and he thought that would be a better arrangement both for the Prince and the public. He hoped after the notice which he had taken of the matter, that Government would be able to consider it before Parliament met again, and if that should be so he would not have taken up their Lordships' time unprofitably.
THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLEsaid, there could be no objection to granting the return moved for by the noble Lord. Indeed, so far from there being any objection to it, he was glad that it had been moved for, inasmuch as it would contain most useful information, to which the attention of Parliament might be advantageously directed. He did not, however, think it would be advisable to enter into any discussion upon his noble Friend's suggestions with respect to the appropriation of Burlington House; nor should he enter at any length into the propriety of the very extensive purchase which his noble Friend had recommended between Downing Street and Great George Street. At the same time, he entirely agreed that it was of vast importance that all the principal offices of Government should be concentrated, for the more they could be brought into a posi-

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tion convenient to each other, the more conveniently and economically would the public business be discharged. Of this he was convinced, that the returns now moved for would establish beyond all question the exceedingly great inconvenience of the mode under which the public offices were at this moment conducted. While he agreed with his noble Friend in the abstract, it was also a question to be considered on economical grounds. He was not, he believed, far wrong when he stated that, independently of the offices held by the Crown in fee simple, there was now being paid annual rents for something more than fifty-six different offices. Of these fifty-six only seven, he believed, were held of the Crown, and consequently rent was paid for the whole of the remainder to private individuals. He believed that 20,000 l. a year was paid for rents by the Office of Woods and Forests alone. But there was not only an enormous sum paid for rents; a most extravagant system was adopted in consequence of the dispersed and inconvenient character of the buildings rented. These buildings had most of them been private houses, and therefore they were only suited for private families, and as a matter of course almost one-half the space was thrown away wastefully. But this was not all. There must be office-keepers and messengers to each. Messengers were kept running about, and undoubtedly, besides the rent, a considerable sum was annually expended in this way. And for what? Why, that the public business might be inconvenienced, and carried on with much less satisfaction to those who had the conduct of it, and with much less advantage to the public, than if a considerable sum were at once expended in the erection of new buildings, the interest on the capital of which he believed would be less than the amount annually paid for rent. To afford their Lordships some idea of the inconvenience sustained under the present state of things, he would mention that, apart from the central office held by the Board of Trade which the President occupied, there were ten or eleven other offices elsewhere, in which the business of departments of the Board was carried on. It must be obvious that, under such circumstances, the President of the Board of Trade could not exercise control, or conduct business in a manner which the public had a right to require. The same observation applied to the War Department. He did not speak only of the
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great offices of the Horse Guards and the Ordnance, but of a number of small offices, such as the recruiting office, the medical inspector's office, the medical examination of recruits office, and others, all of which, being held in different buildings, were practically beyond that supervision and control by the Secretary at War, which the head of every department ought to have the means of exercising. The question, therefore, was not merely one of pounds, shillings, and pence, it was one of economy and efficiency; and for these reasons he believed it would be for the advantage of the public service that a considerable expenditure should be incurred for this purpose. The attention of the Government had been directed to the subject, but under existing circumstances he could give no pledge upon it. We were at this moment engaged in very expensive operations, and it must be matter for consideration how far it would be right or desirable to choose such a time for calling upon Parliament for such an expenditure. At the same time the expenditure would be right in itself, and he felt confident that the country would support any Government in proposing a Vote for this important object at the very earliest moment at which it could be proposed consistently with the other requisitions upon the people.
LORD REDESDALEthought it desirable that there should be no delay. It was important the Government should come to some determination by next Session, for the land with old buildings might be procured cheaper now than at a future time, when new ones might perhaps have been erected; and if Government determined to become possessed of the property, they might name a certain time within which they should be at liberty to conclude the purchase, so as not to render any immediate expenditure necessary. He did not think it reasonable to keep such a matter hanging over the heads of the holders of the property for a lengthened period, but he suggested that five years might not be thought too long a time; and even if Government should pay the price at once, they need not pull down the houses, but might let them, and the rents would be more than sufficient to pay the interest of the money expended.
On Question, agreed to.
House adjourned till To-morrow.