SPIRITS (IRELAND) BILL. (Hansard, 1 August 1854)

§ VISCOUNT CANNING
moved that the Bill be now read 3^a.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
said, he felt it a duty to call their Lordships' attention to the provisions of this measure, which he had no hesitation in saying was one which, in its present state, ought not to receive their Lordships' assent. The title of the Bill was not in the least calculated to call attention to its contents; indeed, the pro- 1071 visions entirely conflicted with the title; and he believed that his noble Friend who had charge of it had found it necessary to alter the title accordingly. The original title was "to amend the Acts for the better Prevention of the sale of Spirits by unlicensed Persons in Ireland;" but clauses of the utmost possible importance had been introduced, having no relation whatever to that subject, but to a much larger and more important matter. In consequence, and to comply with Parliamentary usage, the title had been altered for the purpose of including those particular provisions. This he stated in order to explain the fact that so little attention had been obtained for this measure either out of doors or within the Houses of Parliament; and, as was not unusual at that period of the Session, it had passed through its various stages in both Houses without exciting much attention, even on the part of the most active Irish Members, though, perhaps, if it had been de spiritualibus instead of de spirituosis, the case would have been different, and the Bill would have been more fully considered. Their Lordships were aware that there existed in Ireland a force called the constabulary, and he might fearlessly assert that there was not an individual who had been brought in contact with the administration of the law in Ireland, or with the Irish Government, who would not be ready to do justice to that force, as being one of the most valuable institutions in that country. This force consisted of 12,000 men, well appointed and well disciplined, supported at an expense of 500,000l. annually, and originally established by the late Marquess of Wellesley for the exclusive purpose of preserving the public peace. In deference to that principle there were certain duties and functions from which, by law, the constabulary were excluded. They were excluded, for instance, from anything connected with the preservation of game, or the protection of fisheries, the collection of rents and tithes, and specialter excluded from the collection of the public revenue or the enforcement of the laws against smuggling. Successive Acts which had since received the sanction of the Legislature had repeated those exceptions. Their Lordships were now, however, called upon by the present Bill, which was introduced under another title, to repeal the wise provisions of all those Acts, and to apply the constabulary force of Ireland, for the first time, to the collection of the public revenue and the enforcement of 1072 its penalties. By one of the provisions of the Bill the Lord Lieutenant was authorised to declare certain districts in a state of insubordination to the Distillery Laws, and, thereupon, by virtue of this order of his Excellency, all the constabulary force in each proclaimed district were converted, ipso facto, into Excise officers. Let their Lordships consider for one moment what would be the effect of such an enactment. The Excise law, as everybody knew, was wholly separate and distinguishable from the ordinary municipal law, which the constabulary were hitherto called upon to execute. It was much more complicated and difficult, and required from those connected with that department duties of a very peculiar kind. It also conferred on those who administered it much greater powers. Excise officers were entitled to resort to very stringent authority, and, among other prerogatives, were entitled to proceed without the sanction of the civil magistrate, and to repel force by force by using the firearms which they held in their hands, and to fire, if necessary, in the execution of their duty upon any mob who might venture to oppose them. They had also power to break into any house at any time, by day or night, if they found such extreme measures necessary. Those who had looked practically into the subject—he referred, for example, to the clear evidence of that able and excellent public officer, Mr. John Wood, the head of the Board of Inland Revenue—had distinctly stated that the functions of the two classes of officers, the exciseman and the constable, were entirely distinguishable; that the power of the Excise officer in executing his duty was infinitely greater than the power of the Constable; and that the protection which the law afforded him was proportionally greater likewise. An exciseman, for instance, had power to break into a house without special warrant, and at any time upon any information he might receive; by one of the clauses of this Bill, which transferred the Revenue duties to the constabulary, any constable, or sub-constable, even a young man who was for the first time appointed to discharge this service, was empowered by day or night—for the words were, at all times in quest of illicit spirits, or of persons who had sold spirits without a licence—to enter houses and enforce the law. These were functions and powers with which he had never hitherto been entrusted. Now, he put it to their Lordships, whether it was within the bounds of reason 1073 that by an Act of Parliament of this description they would at once communicate to these persons the whole knowledge necessary to enable them to discharge the duties that would be required of them under the Excise laws? Could they by an Act of Parliament, instruct the whole constabulary of Ireland with what would be a miraculous knowledge of the Excise code? A Select Committee had, indeed, sat upon the Bill; but not one tittle of evidence had been given by any person in favour of the scheme which the Bill was intended to carry into effect—indeed, all the evidence was to the contrary effect. But more wonders were to follow. The constabulary being turned into excisemen by Act of Parliament, at once came under the control of the Board of Excise, who would thus acquire a jurisdiction that would necessarily conflict with that of the magistracy, and of the staff of the constabulary, who would no longer have the power of regulating the force for the preservation of the peace. What would be the consequence? Endless contradiction and confusion. When the men were required for the preservation of the public peace, they might be ordered by the Excise to scour the country for the purpose of putting down illicit distillation. When ordered out by the Excise, they might be required to suppress an Orange or a Riband meeting. But, he was told, that as soon as the constabulary in a particular district were turned into excisemen, it was intended to withdraw the existing revenue police, who really knew their business, and to leave it wholly to the care of the constables, who were wholly ignorant of these new duties. The distribution of the constabulary force wholly unfitted it for such duties. At present they were distributed in small parties over the surface of Ireland, though they were chiefly concentrated in those parts where the population was the densest. The revenue police, on the contrary, were stationed in larger parties, not where the constables were quartered, but in the mountains and bogs, where there was a thin population, and where peculiar facilities existed for violating the Excise laws. Thus the constabulary were now necessarily distributed in the most populous districts of Ireland, whilst the service they would be called upon to perform under this Bill was in the least-peopled and least-accessible districts. Who could reconcile these contradictions? Then what was this novel service? It was no other than what was termed in Ireland 1074 "still-bunting." The constables hereafter would be engaged in interrupting the profitable, though illegal, practices of a large portion of the population; and that could not be done unless they went with an armed force sufficient to render resistance unavailing. The force of opinion, which now made their strength, would be lost. The constables went about in twos and threes by day or night. But pass this Bill, and they could no more proceed, or venture to proceed, in the small parties in which they were accustomed to patrol the country, than they could fly; neither could their parties be augmented in numbers except by withdrawing the police officers from their primary duty of preserving the public peace. So that if they were required to patrol the roads, to attend the petty or quarter sessions, and execute their proper duties, what would become of illicit distillation? If, on the other hand, they were employed in suppressing illicit distillation, what became of the protection to property and the preservation of the peace? When the constables were employed in preserving the peace, the illicit distiller would be at work; when acting as Excise officers the robber and the housebreaker would go unmolested. He protested against a measure of this kind as dangerous to the public peace, and inconsistent with their Lordships' past and wise legislation. But it should also be remembered that there was a revenue police already in existence; it was well organised, and under admirable officers. If that force were insufficient, increase it, but do not take away the force which was neccessary for the general administration of the law. He believed that if there were a corrupting duty upon earth, it was that of the revenue service in a county or district where illicit distillation prevailed. The discipline of the British Army itself had broken down and crumbled under the temptation and influences connected with the manifold attempts to suppress illicit distillation in Ireland. A general order was issued that on no account whatever was any party to proceed upon revenue duty except under the command of a commissioned officer. Now if the British Army had been found to be incapable of executing those functions unless commanded by a commissioned officer, how could they think it possible that a much less disciplined force—the constabulary of Ireland—would, acting alone, be able to resist all the temptations which drink, bribery, and corruption would introduce into their 1075 body if Parliament permitted the Bill to pass in its present shape? If it be necessary, let the Government increase the number of the revenue police in Ireland to any extent; but, as they wished the peace of Ireland, let them not attempt to employ the constabulary on revenue duty. He had great confidence in the revenue police and its administration, and also in the constabulary, but he had no confidence at all in any double administration, such as would be exercised over a body acting as excisemen at one time and constables at another. Their Lordships were aware that the most hearty good-will was now generally manifested towards the constabulary by the people of Ireland. They could move by night or by day in districts the most remote without the apprehension of any attack being made upon them. Such was the confidence placed in the constabulary force in Ireland, that they are frequently made the depositories of information which the Government themselves could not obtain. But what would be the result if the force were in future sent out for the purpose of destroying the stills upon the mountains? They would lose that confidence and goodwill of the people, and a feeling of enmity and distrust would inevitably be engendered. He thanked God that Ireland was at present in a state of peace and safety. What was the result of such a state of things? Why, that within the last two months the Government had withdrawn twelve regiments, which formed as it were the heart of the garrison of Ireland. They had been ordered abroad to carry the glory of England into distant lands, and the duties hitherto performed by the soldiers were now in a great measure discharged by the constabulary force, which it was proposed to debase by this Bill. He, therefore, considered it peculiarly unwise to employ the constabulary at the present moment in the way proposed by this Bill. There were not now as many soldiers as there were constabulary in Ireland. Was this a time to employ the latter body in a service in which they would feel themselves degraded? Sir Duncan M'Gregor, the head of the force in Ireland, declared that no employment could be more odious to the constabulary than that which should bring them in connection with revenue duty. This Bill, if passed in its present shape, would infuse a spirit of discontent among the constabulary at a time when there was increasing difficulties in recruiting their numbers. Mr. Wood, the Chairman of 1076 Inland Revenue, expressed an opinion similar to that of Sir D. M'Gregor. Upon those grounds, and acting on the strongest convictions, he should, after the Bill had been read a third time, move the omission of those clauses in the Bill which sanctioned the employment of the constabulary on revenue duty.

§ LORD MONTEAGLE
then moved an Amendment in section 2, the effect of which was to take away from "sub-constables" the right of breaking into houses for the purpose of discovering illicit spirits. These sub-constables were generally young men, and hence they ought not to be intrusted with these large powers. He thought that this and other clauses of the Bill showed that it had not received a very large amount of care in the other House.

§ VISCOUNT CANNING
said, that though no Member of that House had a better right to express an opinion on this subject than the noble Lord who had last addressed the House, still he (Viscount Canning) thought that he was justified in objecting to the view that the noble Lord had taken of this measure. With respect to what had been said as to the title of the Bill, it was true that when the Bill came up from the other House, the title had failed to express the provisions which were to be found in the measure, and when the discrepancy was pointed out it was remedied; and at all events the objection was one which was entitled to small weight. In order to prove that the Bill had received due consideration in the other House, he begged to remind his noble Friend that the clause at first inserted in the Bill, and which he (Lord Monteagle) supposed would put in jeopardy a large amount of revenue, had in the other House been omitted—the objections to the clause having been allowed to prevail, and when the Bill came up to their Lordships' House it contained no clause which could justify such an objection. Not only was the Bill amply discussed in the other House, but he begged also to state that, after considerable discussion, it passed without any opposition, excepting such as led to merely nominal divisions. The Amendment proposed by his noble Friend was brought forward on the ground that the sub-constables were young and inexperienced men, who could not be trusted with the delicate duties which would attach to them under this Bill. But none of these constables could 1077 act unless he had a warrant specifically addressed to himself, and he (Viscount Canning) thought that he might confidently state that there was a large number of these public servants, who were by no means young or inexperienced, but who, on the contrary, had been many years in the service, who had been distinguished by good-service marks, and who, in the case of the illness or absence of a chief constable, were frequently trusted with the command of a station. He thought, therefore, that if it were left to those in authority to select from these men—who as a body were thought worthy of trust—the most worthy, no bad result could arise from the sub-constables being intrusted with powers given under this Act. If this Amendment were inserted, then the Lord Lieutenant, in not being able to avail himself of the sub-constables, would only, out of a force of 13,000, be able to employ 1,500, and this would by a side-wind have the effect of defeating the purpose of the 13th clause. He thought that his noble Friend was hardly, by the wording of the 13th clause, justified in saying that the Lord Lieutenant would have power of converting the constabulary into excisemen, which would degrade them and render them comparatively useless in the discharge of the more legitimate services, and he had quoted the authority of Sir Duncan M'Gregor as being hostile to this change. He must also demur to the description given by his noble Friend of the evidence taken before the Committee last year. He must admit that Sir D. M'Gregor, throughout his evidence, expressed Himself against any such general change as it was supposed would be effected by the present Bill, and it was perfectly natural for that gentleman, seeing how effective and well disciplined the force under him was, to desire to leave well alone. But Sir D. M'Gregor had, when pressed, said that he would undertake the duties which the proposed changes would require if they were imposed upon him, and he had also supported the evidence of others who had expressed an opinion that if the constabulary were employed in putting down illicit distillation, though this might at first create a sensation, yet after three or four months it would cease, and that the constabulary by performing these duties would not lose the good opinion and esteem of the people. With respect to the power given to the Lord Lieutenant under the 13th clause, it was not too much to sup- 1078 pose that he would, in the exercise of such discretionary power, try the experiment proposed by the present Bill, not in Donegal or counties where illicit distillation prevailed to a large extent, but rather in those counties where illicit distillation existed only to a small extent, and could be put down by the constabulary, even if they were so unfit for this duty as his noble Friend had stated. This measure would afford the opportunity of trying a safe and easy experiment, and even if it failed, limited to time as it was by the Act, it could not be productive of mischievous results; he therefore asked their Lordships to reject the proposed Amendments.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE
supported the Amendment. He begged their Lordships to recollect that, although the whole revenue police of Ireland only amounted to 947, yet, by the regulations of that force, the execution of warrants was only intrusted to 151 officers; and yet by the Bill now before them they were called upon to grant to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland the power of authorising any one out of 13,000 persons to enter any dwelling in the country at any hour of the night. And although his noble Friend and relative (Viscount Canning) told their Lordships that the Lord Lieutenant would never exercise the powers which were given to him, he conceived that formed no answer to the objection; for if they were never meant to be used, why, he would ask, were they allowed to him? His more grave objection, however, to the Bill was founded on the employment at all of the constabulary in such service. He would say with confidence that there did not exist in any country of the world a police equal to that of Ireland. That force had been always regarded as a model force, even in this country; and when Sir Robert Peel wanted to make the London police perfect, where did he turn for a model, but to Ireland? He would therefore ask their Lordships, ought such a force as that to be distracted from its proper occupations—ought so gratuitous an injury to be inflicted upon it as this Bill contemplated, without the best possible reasons being shown for such a proceeding; and especially at a moment when, our soldiers being withdrawn, the whole maintenance of order depended upon the constabulary? But believing no such reasons had been shown, he should most certainly support the Amendment of the noble Lord.

LORD MONTEACLE
said, it was not his intention to divide their Lordships on the present Amendment, but would take the division on the 13th clause.