Lords Sitting of 2 May 1853

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament.—The Lord Willoughby de Broke, after the Death of his Uncle.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Aggravated Assaults.
Reported.—South Sea and other Annuities Commutation.

PUBLIC WORKS IN INDIA.
LORD WHARNCLIFFE presented a petition from the Master Cutler and Cutlers Company of Sheffield, praying that in any legislation for the future government
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of India provision may be made for its internal improvement, and the carrying on of public works in that country. The noble Lord said, he had thought himself justified in giving notice of his intention to present this petition, and of calling the attention of the House to its prayer, partly in consideration of the situation which the petitioners themselves occupied in the community, and partly on account of the enormous importance of the objects to which they desired to attract their Lordships' notice. The petitioners were a corporation, representing one of the most ancient and most successful branches of the manufactures of this country; the head only of that corporation had signed the petition. He believed he was right in stating that of all the countries in the world to which the cutlery of England was exported, our Indian territories were among the most important. They stood third in the order of those who took the greatest part of these exports; and the Corporation of Cutlers, therefore, naturally viewed with anxiety and interest any course which might be taken, or any measures that might be proposed, likely to affect the consuming powers of the native population, and thereby the trade between England and that country. But he believed he might assume that the prayer of the petition was shared in by all who were interested generally in the manufactures and commerce of the country. Its prayer was entirely in accordance with public opinion; for he had no doubt that when their Lordships were prayed by the petitioners to address their attention to the improvement of the internal condition of the people of India, they expressed no more than the general sense and feeling of the people of this country. With this object the petitioners submitted a variety of suggestions to their Lordships. First, they declared that it was an imperative duty on the part of the Government of India to promote the cultivation of the soil. Having this object in view, they recommended that there should be a more moderate and permanent system of land tax. It would be entering upon far too extensive a subject to discuss the different systems of land revenue in India; nor could he pretend to determine which system was most likely to tend to the prosperity and happiness of the people. But there could be no doubt that the condition of the inhabitants of that vast territory was greatly affected by the mode in which that impost was raised. There

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had been frequent controversies as to the extent to which it operated in obstructing the development of industry. He believed there had been a great waste of argument on this subject; because it must be apparent to any one who considered it that the pressure of such a tax, varying in different portions of the territory according to the quality, power, and resources of the soil, must depend upon the means taken to develop those resources. Supposing the amount of the land tax to be 2s. or 3s.. per acre, it would press very differently in parts of the country where the value of the produce was only 6s. or 7s., from others where that amounted to 20 s. or 25 s. The next point to which the petition directed attention, had reference to the financial proceedings of the Government. It was well known to their Lordships that one of the great difficulties of the Indian Government was, that they had to provide annually about 3,000,000 l. to be remitted to this country. Several modes were resorted to in order to effect that object, and among others there was one which was called the hypothecation of goods in India. When his noble Friend (the Earl of Ellenborough) was at the head of the Government of India, about the year 1843, he took steps to put an end to this practice; he sent a despatch home, strongly recommending that it should be entirely discontinued. The recommendation of his noble Friend was not then adopted; but an order was issued in 1850 which entirely abolished the practice, and it was to be hoped it would not, under any circumstances, be revived. The system was originally adopted when the Company was a trading company; but the trade of India having grown with so much rapidity that our exports had increased 140 per cent since the last Act was passed, it was impossible to think that sufficient means could not be found, in the ordinary channels of commerce, for effecting the necessary remittances without resorting to so objectionable a plan. The next subject, and that which formed the body of the petition, was one to which he must call particular attention; because he profoundly felt that among all the subjects in which this country had a deep interest, as connected with the future government of India, there was none of more momentous importance than that of promoting the internal improvement of India. It was now nearly two years ago since he had taken an opportunity of calling attention to the sub-
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ject; when he moved for certain papers, which were readily granted. Those papers certainly conveyed some interesting information, but information upon a very limited and partial scale, so that it was desirable the attention of the House should be turned to the subject. It might be answered that all these matters naturally came within the scope of the investigation now being pursued by their Lordships' Committee. He could not concur in the objection. No doubt their Lordships' Committee would thoroughly investigate the subject; but the evidence entombed in great blue books did not convey much idea of the different points under consideration to the public at large. At a moment like the present, therefore, when every part of the Government of India was to be brought under review, it was desirable to direct the action of public opinion upon the authorities on whom the Government of India rested, and, therefore, it could not be considered out of place to refer to them on this occasion. We were accustomed in this country to hear two very different representations of the state of our Indian territories. On the one hand there was the East India Company and the Government represented as doing a great deal, and in process of doing everything which should be done for the advancement of the interests of that great country; while it was maintained on the other hand that it was the scandal of the Indian Government that so little had been effected—that vast sums were spent every year, but not upon works of improvement—and that there remained a vast mass of operations which it was the duty of the Government to undertake. He believed, however, neither of these statements conveyed precisely the correct view. As regarded the Government, he had no wish or intention to bring any charge against them on this subject. He was inclined to believe that of late years they had been much more ready than they had been to engage in works of internal improvement; but up to ten years ago there could be no doubt there had been most miserable inefficiency respecting such works. In the last ten years he would not deny there had been more desire to improve, and larger sums appropriated to that purpose than before; but at the same time he could by no means admit that all had been done that should be done. The state of the case, then, was this—that in many parts of India there had been a most lamentable deficiency of internal improvements; but

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that lately the Government had shown themselves sensible of the necessity of promoting them. He would take a brief survey of the different provinces as regarded various internal improvements. One of the most ancient of our possessions was the Lower Province of Bengal. Two enormous streams watered this province, finding their way to the sea through innumerable channels; and the whole district was formed of ground affording the richest soil, and capable of the finest cultivation. But what was the condition of this district? Its population consisted of 40,000,000 of souls. In former times the works constructed on the different rivers, either for the purpose of keeping out the waters, or for admitting them into the land for the purpose of irrigation, were numerous. There were not less than 3,000 miles of such embankments or works which had been formed by the inhabitants of the country. Some years ago a commission was issued to examine the condition of those embankments, in order that the Government might he informed whether it was possible to renew or improve them. This commission was said to be rather singularly constituted, for it consisted of a fourth-rate engineer, a captain of Native Infantry, and a medical officer. These gentlemen examined various plans, and reported; and what did their Lordships think was the tenor of their report? Why, they reported that they found these works in a state of great inefficiency; but instead of pointing out the localities where they thought judicious improvements might be effected, their sole report was, that they found the embankments in so inefficient a state that the best thing would be to leave them in a state of nature. The words "state of nature" was their own expression. How did the province stand with respect to other works of internal communication? There were canals executed long since, but they were utterly inadequate for their object; they had been totally neglected, and they were choked up in such a manner that the traffic was unable to pass along them. And what was the state of the roads? There was the Grand Trunk road, intended to communicate between Calcutta and Delhi, and which had afterwards been extended far beyond. It was 1,450 miles long, and the expenditure of the Government upon it had been 1,500,000 l. It was a great military line of communication, and it certainly looked like a great work; but when the House came to see
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what it really was, he was afraid their notions in respect to its utility would be somewhat lowered. It was called a "metal road," and no doubt it was in some parts a very fair road; but it had this small defect, that it passed several most difficult streams, and to pass them without bridges was a disagreeable if not a dangerous operation. Five years ago there were two bridges within thirty-five miles of Calcutta; they were washed away, and it was stated that notwithstanding the most urgent remonstrances not even an attempt had been made to restore these bridges. But what occurred on this road when it was desirable to make use of it? It was stated in 1848, in the Committee on the Growth of Cotton in India, by a gentleman of great experience and knowledge, that on one occasion, during the war on the Sutlej, the Government wished to send 100 officers from Calcutta to the scene of operations. It was calculated that in order to make the journey within the time desired, it could not be made otherwise than by dâk, and that relays of 7,200 bearers would be necessary. The speed was four miles an hour. The result was, that notwithstanding these 1,400 miles of "metal" road, only thirty of the officers arrived at the seat of war in time to take part in the operation. This was a circumstance which would illustrate the actual utility of the road. He would now proceed to consider the state of the northwestern provinces. Here, he was bound to say the Government had shown more activity in the improvement of the country and the introduction of great works than in any other part of India. At Delhi there were two great canals for irrigation, one called West Jumna, and the other East Jumna, on which large sums had been expended, and he believed they were now in efficient operation. There were also some smaller works. They consisted of canals extending for about 900 miles along the district between the Ganges and the Jumna. The most ample remuneration had been derived from works of that kind, much more than sufficient to cover the outlay. In 1851 there were no less than nine works of that description enumerated in the despatches received by the Government. It was exceedingly satisfactory to those who had taken an interest in promoting these works, that they had been so successful. If they looked to the Bombay Presidency, they would there find a state of things similar to that which they

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had before their eyes in the Bengal provinces. The state of the roads and communications was disgraceful: in many parts of the Presidency it was impossible for wheeled carriages to move about, and in the rainy season the roads were impassable, so that in seasons of famine the inhabitants of one place had perished, while abundance of corn existed at others within a very short distance. In the year 1831, when corn was selling at Poonah for 64 s. the bushel, it was found impossible to bring to the town a supply of grain from another part of the province, where the selling price was 6s. per bushel. Another remarkable instance occurred in 1837, when the disastrous famine occurred at Agra; and it was then found impossible to obtain a supply of corn from a neighbouring district, where it was sold at very low prices. So bad, indeed, were many of the roads, that cattle died upon them in large numbers from excessive fatigue. The distance over which the corn required to be carried was not more than 400 miles, yet the difference of price in the two places, amounting to 9d. or 10 d. per mile of distance, was not sufficient to overcome the expense and trouble of its carriage. It was needless for him to point out to their Lordships the great disadvantages under which a country must be placed which was unable to provide itself with necessary works of this kind. In addition to the great want of roads, there was not so extensive a supply of works of irrigation as was needed in the Presidency. It was true that the Government had to a small extent endeavoured to supply the deficiency of internal communication and of irrigation by means of occasional grants of money and guarantees; and for this encouragement given to necessary works of this kind, some degree of credit was of course due to the Government. The Government had recently consented to give their guarantee to the introduction of a railway, which was likely to open up new districts of country, and, by this time, he hoped a small section of that undertaking was in operation. Credit was due to the Government for what they had done in this respect; but it was obvious that, so far as railways were concerned, the success and utility of works of that kind would be greatly limited if they were not combined, sooner or later, with the construction of ordinary roads. If railways were constructed through a province for the purpose of obtaining the produce of the district through which they passed, it was absolutely neces-
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sary that there should be ordinary roads to connect the producing districts with the main line of communication. His own expectation, however, was, that so soon as works of this kind were constructed, and had commenced to develop the traffic and increase the production of a district, the minor communications would speedily receive that share of attention which they would deserve. The completion of railways would create not merely the means of transit, but would extend such an amount of improvements upon either side of them as could not fail to be of great advantage to the country. The Presidency of Madras was in many respects a very different territory to the others to which he had referred, and in no province was plentiful irrigation of so great importance. Throughout the Presidency there was a countless multitude of native works of former times still existing, formed for the purpose of providing that due supply of irrigation which was indispensable to the cultivation of the country. Many of these works were rapidly sinking into decay, and others were now in a state of perfect ruin; large numbers of them, indeed, had probably never yet been seen by Europeans. Some idea of the extent of these native tanks or reservoirs might be judged of by the dimensions of one of the largest now existing in the Presidency; when filled to the level this tank was twenty-five miles in circumference, its average depth of water was six feet, with the waste sluices open, and its surface contained about 35,000,000 square yards, or nearly twelve square miles. The noble Lord then proceeded to quote at considerable length the petition of the inhabitants at Madras, recently presented to the House, for the purpose of showing the disgraceful condition of the roads, and also referred to a number of official returns showing the increase in the traffic, and in the amount of produce, which had followed the improvement of the means of communication in various parts of the Presidency. The noble Lord then stated that in the petition which he was about to present, the petitioners prayed their Lordships to adopt some measures which would secure to the people of India a more speedy and certain administration of justice, and which would compel an annual detailed report on the whole affairs of India to be laid before the Parliament of this country. With respect to the assistance which the Government might give to the promotion of internal improvements in India, he was anxious to express his con-

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viction that, if the East India Company or the Government of India would devote its energies and attention to the subject, a much larger amount of assistance might he commanded from the inhabitants of India than from capitalists in this country. Many large works had been successfully carried out by private enterprise in each of the three Presidencies, among which he might instance a large suspension bridge which had been recently completed in the Bombay territory. The noble Lord concluded by expressing his conviction that there was no one subject of greater importance now before Parliament than the expediency, and indeed the absolute necessity, of promoting public works, with the view to promote the internal improvement of India.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it was very satisfactory to him to find that an interest in the affairs of India should now extend through the country; and he trusted the influence of the petitioners in urging the consideration of the just claims of India on Her Majesty's Government might be attended with beneficial results. The assistance so influential a body as the petitioners was able to render, would be received by all those who took an interest in the affairs of India with the greatest satisfaction and gratitude. He could well understand that the petitioners felt great satisfaction at the total abolition of that pernicious custom of advancing money in India on the hypothecation of goods, interfering as that custom did greatly with the transactions of the honest trader. He (the Earl of Ellenborough), when in India, strongly represented to the Home Government the injury thereby inflicted upon commerce; and he was so confident that his arguments would be convincing to the home authorities, that he issued a notice of the approaching discontinuance of the practice. However, this opinion of the Government in India was not very well received by the home authorities; and he felt assured that there was no one proceeding of his Government which gave more thorough dissatisfaction to the Court of Directors than that to which he had referred. But the apprehension of the Court of Directors that they would not receive their remittances if the practice in question were abolished, was entirely without foundation. He believed, on the contrary, that they would receive all their monies without affecting the freedom of honest commerce. His noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe) had adverted strongly to the state of the roads
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in India. That subject happened to be brought under his (the Earl of Ellenborough's) notice on the very first day of his arrival in India. On his arrival at Tanjore there was no steamer to carry him up to Calcutta, and he proposed proceeding by land, but he was told there was no road; that if there had been, there were no means of conveyance to be had in the country, and that he must walk the whole way. At a subsequent period—six or eight weeks afterwards—it was necessary for him to proceed up the country, and it took nine days to lay the dâk for his journey, though he travelled with only three palanquins, and he believed with less baggage than would have been taken by a cadet. As he advanced further up the country he observed that the roads were as good in some places as in England, but in others almost impassable. He communicated with Mr. Gray, the postmaster at Calcutta, an able and intelligent gentleman, on the subject, and eventually great improvements were made in the roads so far as the conveyance of the mails was concerned. Before he (the Earl of Ellenborough) left the country, indeed, it was possible to send two or three officers by any of the mail carts, by which means they were enabled to travel as rapidly as the letters; and arrangements were then in progress for increasing the facilities for travelling by means of bullocks and horses from Calcutta up to the very top of the Himalaya. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) had his palanquin placed on wheels; and instead of being carried he was pushed, and that at the rate of seven miles an hour, instead of four miles an hour as before he had recourse to that expedient. When his noble Friend talked of making roads which would be of the greatest benefit to the people of India, he would beg to call his attention to a diplomatic arrangement which was necessary to facilitate the transfer of goods in that country. In almost all the small native States, duties were levied which very greatly impeded the free transport of goods. It had been his (the Earl of Ellenborough's) intention to establish with the different princes, from one end of India to the other, something in the nature of a Zollverein, so as to make the whole trade free from the Himalaya to Cape Comorin. By arrangements he had made, the duty on the transport of goods had been very materially reduced, and a hochesy between Kurrachee and Delhi would pay no more than a cart between

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London and Windsor. In India he not only found there were no roads, but there were no bridges; and the inconvenience from the want of bridges could not be imagined, because, during the rains almost all the great lines of communication were broken and intercepted. What his noble Friend had stated was perfectly true, that there was no country in the world in which the Government had so much encouragement in great works of internal improvement, for those works could be executed at comparatively small cost. He did not refer merely to canals and works of that description, but to those of art, ornament, and taste, for the execution of which there were materials on a scale of the greatest magnificence. When he arrived at Delhi he found a magnificent canal running like a mill stream through that city; but he was told that during three or four weeks of the year, during the usual season of drought, that canal was dry, and that the whole population of Delhi were then obliged to resort to the Jumna, at some little distance, for a supply of drinking water. He directed the excavation of a tank, which was built with steps of sandstone leading down to the bottom of it, so that all persons desiring of getting a supply might at all times reach the level of the water. It was a very handsome edifice, being built of the same materials as the adjacent palace. It contained 800,000 gallons of water, sufficient for the whole population of Delhi for a period of three weeks, and the cost of its erection did not exceed 2,500 l. When that was known, be thought their Lordships would be surprised that more had not been done in that way. When he was Chairman of the Board of Control, he remembered being told by a Director that if we had at that time to relinquish our territory in India, that such was the character of our buildings there, erected as they had been merely for temporary use and convenience and not for futurity, we should hardly have left behind us a trace of having been in the occupation of the country. All agreed that it was absolutely necessary that works of the kind described by his noble Friend should be constructed in India; but one great difficulty in the way of that desirable object would occur to his noble Friend—namely, the difficulty of finding the requisite funds. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) must say, looking at the war in which the Government of India had most unfortunately engaged, the result of which no man could
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foretell, and looking also at the melancholy condition of the great Empire of China, in which the state of convulsion and civil war might impair one very great source of our Indian revenue, he regarded with some degree of apprehension, on the part of the Government of India, the absence of sufficient funds to construct public works in that country. He entertained some degree of hope, however, that the expression of the desires of the petitioners acting upon Parliament and the Government might lead to some beneficial result. Let their Lordships see whether they could not, by pledging the credit of our Government here to the Government of India, for the purpose of reducing the interest on those great incumbrances, the interest of which was paid in England, at once create new funds, not inconsiderable in amount, which he should desire to see absolutely devoted by Parliament to the sole purpose of internal improvements in India, not in substitution of the fund required on the part of the Government of India, but in addition to it. An estimate of the sum thus appropriated ought to be laid before Parliament every year, together with an account of the expenditure incurred by the several Governments of India for the same purpose. He could not pretend to say what might be the nature of the new measure contemplated for the Government of India, but he could imagine that that measure, whatever it might be, would put an end altogether to the present system of patronage; that the present value which now attached to the patronage of India would no longer exist, which value had induced so many persons to become possessors of India Stock for the purpose of becoming candidates for a seat in the Indian Direction. Something was required on behalf of India, that the persons sent out to India to fill public offices should have the requisite qualifications. He felt certain that such a state of things as had heretofore existed would not be permitted to continue, and that no man who purchased 1,000 l. worth of East India Stock would hereafter be able to barter his vote for the patronage he received, or expected to receive, from the director for whom he voted. Such a pernicious system might and would be put an end to. But assuming East India Stock would continue to have that value given to it in consequence of the facilities for bartering a vote for patronage, let their Lordships observe with what facilities they might commute the present stock for stock of a different

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character under the faith of the Government of this country, and bearing a lower rate of interest. The present price of East India Stock was 262 l. He believed it bore a higher price than it would bear in the market if there were no such advantages as he had named attached to it. He was willing, however, to give the present holders of East India Stock the full advantage of that price. He should propose that to every proprietor of East India Stock there should be offered on the part of the Government for every 100 l. of that stock, which was now of the value of 262 l., 266 l. 13 s. 4d. in the 3 per cents. That would afford him, at the present price, a premium of 4l. 13 s. 4d. on the conversion of every 100 l. of the present stock of the East India Company into the 3 per cents. He could hardly think, that, apart from all considerations of India patronage, the persons holding that stock would not willingly avail themselves of such an offer. Assuming there was such a willingness on the part of the proprietors of East India Stock, the stock thus created would amount to 16,000,000 l., the interest of which would he 480,000 l. The present interest being 630,000 l., the first gain on that part of the transaction would be 150,000 l. But this would not he all. There were the India bonds, amounting to 3,900,000 l., which always bore an interest higher by 1l. per cent than that on Exchequer bills. He proposed that those bonds should be advertised for immediate payment, and that the Government should provide Exchequer bills in the usual way, and invite the public to purchase them. The difference in the interest of 1l. per cent amounted to 40,000 l., and by that second transaction a fund of 190,000 l. a year would be created. But that was not all. If the proprietors of the stock in question could be induced to make that conversion, the Government would have at their disposal the whole of what was called the Security Fund, which was provided for the ultimate discharging of the debt. That Security Fund amounted last year to 3,977,000 l., and it amounted now to 4,118,000 l. The interest on that stock was 123,500 l. Taking into account the sum that would arise from that source, the total amount that might be raised simply by using the credit of this country would not be less than 300,000 l. a year. He thought that sum should be placed at the disposal of the several Presidencies of India, in proportion to the gross revenue of each. The gross revenues of the three
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Presidencies were in these proportions:—Agra, 6; Bengal, 10; Madras, 5; Bombay, 4. To Agra, therefore, he would allot 72,00 l.; to Bengal, 120,000 l.; to Madras, 60,000 l.; and to Bombay, 48,000 l.; making, in the whole, 300,000 l. Thus, before the termination of twenty years, they would have 6,000,000 l., which might be devoted solely and exclusively to the construction of important public works in India. If that were done, Parliament would establish a lasting claim on the affections of the people of India. It would be most desirable that the money should be expended upon works of the most permanent character, and calculated to last as long as any they now saw in India. This country had done a great deal for its military glory and its civil institutions; but he thought it was high time that it should do something for our civil reputation. The great nations of antiquity had left monuments of their taste, genius, and magnificence, in works of art, intelligence, and grandeur, still to be found in those countries. We alone (continued the noble Earl), if by circumstances we were compelled to leave India to-morrow, could hardly be traced as having existed in it by any work left for the benefit of India. We have worked for ourselves, and they worked not for themselves alone, but for posterity. I confess, that, as all men, I believe, have a desire to leave something behind them which may remain when their existence is terminated, I desire for my country that it should leave something in India which may record our existence when our connexion with that country has ceased; and I confess I do look with pain to the reflection that at the present moment the impartial judgment of history upon us would be, that we, the possessors of one of the most magnificent empires in the world—the successors of Akbar and Aurungzebc—although we may have distinguished ourselves as among the noblest soldiers, have condemned our memories as among the very meanest of administrators.
EARL GRANVILLEbelieved that great good resulted from bringing these subjects before their Lordships. Such discussions not only kept up the attention of the public to Indian affairs, but also called the attention of the noble Lords, who were Members of the Select Committee now sitting, to points which must be considered by that Committee. He thought nothing could be fairer than the manner in which the noble Lord had alluded to the present position of matters in India, and, like him, be de-

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plored the apathy which former Governments had displayed upon this subject. The noble Lord had alluded to the great improvements which had taken place within the last ten years with regard to internal public works in India, and had stated his belief that there existed, on the part of the present Government, a disposition to remedy the evils complained of. Those who expressed any views at all with regard to India might be divided into pessimists and optimists; and, to show how very difficult it was, even for the most impartial person, to describe correctly the state of that country, he might mention that what the noble Lord had stated with regard to the great road from Calcutta to Delhi was applicable to its state seven or eight years ago, but was not applicable to it at the present time. One great bridge upon that road certainly remained unfinished; but when he informed their Lordships that three miles of bridge, involving an outlay of 1,000,000 l., were required to continue that communication; and when they considered the bridge near their Lordships' House, which had not been yet touched, although standing so much in need of attention, he thought it would be considered that there was some reason for delay. He would not follow the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) in his remarks upon the renewal of the charter. The present Government were very anxious to do that which would best conduce to the administration of affairs in India; and they felt, with the noble Lord on the cross benches (Lord Wharncliffe), that the very circumstance of their being obliged to rule by absolute government in India conferred greater responsibility on the Ministry to carry out to the fullest extent the material happiness of the people of that country; and he hoped that as the natives had shown a desire for improvement, the Government would do everything in their power to encourage and avail themselves of that feeling.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHhoped that the bridge of which the noble Earl who had just sat down had spoken, would never be attempted. The river was three miles wide; and if piers would be necessary, as he believed they would, the works must be carried over five miles. But there was no solid foundation until you had penetrated through 40 feet of sand, and the piles must be 60 feet high before they came to the bottom of the water, so that altogether they would have to be not less
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than 100 feet high. There was another bridge to be made of the same description, and a third, where the river was three-quarters of a mile wide, and the water 60 feet deep throughout the rains. Now, an engineer might subdue the land, but the water subdued the engineer; and it was physically impossible to attempt to carry out these bridges. In the north of India some of the bridges were three-quarters of a mile from the river; and on one occasion, when he was going to cross a bridge, he was told that the river was on the other side of it; and had he gone across the bridge, he would have found that it ended in the middle of the river. This proceeded from the fact that the least interference with the current sometimes sufficed to turn the course of a river, and, so full were they of the finest possible sand, that he was told a wattled fence would in some cases divert their course. Certainly, the Mahommedans had built bridges, and very fine ones, but then they were a long way off from the rivers.
The EARL of ALBEMARLEsaid, he felt it necessary to give notice of his intention to move on an early day for returns upon a matter which he thought required some elucidation. He was very much, gratified to hear his noble Friend the Lord President encourage discussion upon this Indian question, and he did believe that the more it was sifted the more the intention—the gracious intention—of the last Act of 1834, which professed to be for the improvement and welfare of India, would be carried out. As yet, however, he did not believe that either the welfare of the country or the happiness of the people had been attained by the Act of 1834; and he was afraid that the noble Earl (Earl Granville) would class him among the pessimists as regarded India. He was very glad to find that, at the end of some centuries, they were all agreed upon the necessity of making roads and bridges in India. These were the veins and arteries of a country, and as indispensable to a State as those parts of the system were to the human frame. It waid by Seneca, "Wherever the Romans conquered, it had been said, the country became inhabited; and wherever a country became inhabited under their rule, they connected its most distant capitals by roads and bridges." He knew not whether this quotation had suggested to Gibbon the statement he had made—which was, that a Roman and a pig were the only two animals which could

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live in any country in the world. As, however, an Englishman neither partook of the character of the Roman or the swinish animal, he was the more bound to make his absenteeism less felt in the country which he conquered. With regard to one of the points mentioned in the petition which had been presented to their Lordships that evening—namely, that 10 per cent should be levied for the purposes of public works in India, he was not quite prepared to go that length. The revenue of the country was 20,000,000 l., upon which amount 10 per cent would be 2,000,000 l., and to take that sum out of a revenue, the normal state of which was a heavy deficit, would be no easy matter; and it was also necessary to recollect that the present condition of the public works in India was only one of the grievances which the natives of India laid to the charge of their rulers, and their Lordships were now in a condition to inquire a little into this circumstance. He held in his hand statistical papers relating to India, printed for the Court of Directors, and it was to these documents, however late in the evening, that he must call their Lordships' attention for a few moments. It appeared from a statement therein that the amount expended on public works in India, exclusive of civil and military buildings, in the year 1849–50, was 310,181 l. There was, however, a little mystification here, as it appeared to him. In the statement to which he had referred-, an average of 15 years' expenditure was taken; but this included an estimate of intended expenditure for 1851–52; and what was rather remarkable was, that that estimate was exactly double what the actual expenditure was shown to have been by the last returns for 1849, and was sometimes three times as much as had been expended in any other year out of the 15. Taking an average of 13 years of actual expenditure, he found this was 266,754 l., being less than one-fifth part of the sum expended on the turnpike roads of England and Wales, which was 1,551,386 l. The expenditure to which he had alluded comprised roads, bridges, embankments, canals, tanks, and wells, and was for an area computed at above 500,000 square miles. The noble Lord (Lord Wharncliffe) had called their Lordships' attention to the trunk road from Calcutta to Delhi, and thence to Lahore and Peshawur. The noble Earl (Earl Granville) seemed to think that this road was in a very good condition, but it appeared that it only is to be; and, indeed, everything from these returns ap-
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peared to be in the paulo post futurum tense—nothing was finished, and all the works were to be done. In the words of the poet, it might, in fact, be said of India, that it
"——Never is, but always to be blessed."
This had been the case at the time of granting every new charter, but the promises held out had never been realised. The trunk road in question was 1,423 miles in length, but only 965 miles had been completed, leaving 458, or one third of the whole work, not yet finished; and, as far as the estimate went, that part had not even been begun. The statement, therefore, about this great and important road, upon which so much stress had been laid, was another mystification. The Bombay and Agra road was stated to be 734 miles in length; but it was not stated whether or not it was finished. The cost of constructing the Calcutta road to Delhi was nearly 1,000 l. a mile, exclusive of the expense of convict labour, and the estimate for maintaining it in repair was 35 l. a mile, or for the whole distance about 50,000 l. per annum. The cost of constructing the Bombay and Agra road was 330 l. a mile, and the cost of repair was calculated at 7l., so that the expense of making it was but one-third of that of the Calcutta and Delhi road, and the cost of maintaining it only one-fifth. The Calcutta and Bombay mail-road was 1,170 miles in length, of which 168 miles had been previously constructed, and how much completed was not stated. In 1845 the Court were said to have directed that the expenditure on this line should be restricted to the formation of a road adapted to the transit of the mails. Their Lordships would perhaps associate the idea of mails with macadamized roads, a mail-coach, a smart coachman, and a guard behind with a blunderbuss to fire at the Thugs and robbers. But the fact was, that a conveyor of mails in India was a pedestrian very lightly clad, carrying a pair of baskets balanced on his shoulders by a bamboo, and a mail road was but another word for a footpath. The estimated expense of this road was 500 l. a mile, which would entail an expenditure of about 500,000 l. Then there was given a summary of these roads, from which it appeared that their length would be 3,159 miles, the cost of construction 2,166,676 l., and the expense of annual repairs, 90,000 l. All this was to be done; but, after all, what did it amount to? If completed,

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these roads would be only one-seventh part of the turnpike roads and paved streets of England and Wales, which were reckoned at 20,000 miles, and that in a country about one-seventh the area of India. Of all the cross roads in India the return gave only a poor 300 miles. With regard to these roads, separate provision had been made for their improvement, and funds had been specially set apart for the purpose, consisting of, first, the net profits arising from the tolls on public ferries (which was a tax on trade and travellers, from whom the sum taken ought not to exceed the amount required for the support of the ferries); and, secondly, in the north western provinces, of the 1 per cent paid by the landholders on the amount of the Government revenue, which was neither more nor less than an extra land tax. No mention was made of trunk roads or cross roads within the Madras Presidency, with its area of 130,000 square miles, a computed population of 20,000,000, and paying a gross revenue of 5,000,000 l. One of the returns of which he meant to give notice would be one showing the number of miles of each of the trunk roads of India fit for the transport of goods by wheel carriage, and in actual use for this purpose, to the latest period for Which the same can be supplied; a return showing the number of miles of cross roads within the several territories of the north-western provinces, Madras and Bombay, Bengal excluded, together with the sums disbursed from the public revenue for their repair and maintenance for the last year for which the same can be supplied; a return showing the number of miles of public roads within each of the British settlements of Prince of Wales' Island, Singapore, and Malacca, together with the cost of making the same, and the annual expenses of maintaining them, and stating whether such is disbursed from public funds or municipal rates; a return showing the gross amount of the land tax in all the public lands now watered by irrigation from the several branches of the Jumna Canal for the year (stating the same) immediately preceding such irrigation, and for the last year for which the same can be supplied; a return showing the gross amount of the land tax in all the public lands now watered by the Ganges Canal and its branches for the year (stating the same) immediately preceding such irrigation, and for the last year for which the same can be supplied; a return showing the number of tanks, or reservoirs,
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originally constructed by the Government of India within the territory of Madras, in each year since the year 1834, together with the cost of the same; a return showing respectively the number of canals, wells, and reservoirs constructed by the Government of India, with the cost of the same, within the territory of Bombay, since the year 1834, together with the cost of the same. As far as this return was concerned, there was not one navigable canal in India—the canals which existed being for the purposes of irrigation only. There were some extensive systems of canal irrigation, but no particulars were given, and it did not really appear that the British Government ever constructed one in that part of their dominions. The whole sum laid out in a period of ten years for the three rivers, the Cavery, Godavery, and Kistna, was 191,120 l., or little more than 19,000 l. a year; of this sum, 50,000 l. were assigned to the repairs of the Annicat, the celebrated dam of the Cavery—a huge work of ancient Hindoo Sovereigns, on which wholly depended the fertility of the kingdom of Tanjore, the most fertile part of all India next to Lower Bengal. Of the Bombay Presidency, with its 70,000 square miles, and 10,000,000 of people, no notice whatever was taken, in so far as canals were concerned, and it might therefore be presumed that in reality there were none, although within it were two of the great rivers of India, the Taptee and the Ner-budda. In Lower Bengal the sum laid out for embankments in the year 1849–50, was 15,000 l., and in the north-west provinces it was only 3862. In one year it had been 12,000 l., but in the years 1843 and 1847' it had been absolutely nil. To show the necessity of these works he would quote Mr. Burke, who said—
"The Carnatic is not by the bounty of nature a fertile soil. It is refreshed by few or no living brooks or running streams, and it has rain only at a season; but its product of rice exacts the use of water subject to perpetual command. This is the national bank of the Carnatic, on which it must have a perpetual credit, or it perishes irretrievably. For that reason, in the happier times of India, a number, almost incredible, of reservoirs have been made in chosen places throughout the whole country; they are formed for the greater part of mounds of earth and stones, with sluices of solid masonry; the whole constructed with admirable skill and labour, and maintained at a mighty charge. In the territory contained in Mr. Barnard's map of the Jaghire map alone, I have been at the trouble of reckoning the reservoirs, and they amount to upwards of 1,100, from the extent of two or three acres to five miles in circuit. From these reservoirs currents are occa-

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sionally drawn over the fields, and these watercourses again call for a considerable expense to keep them properly scoured and duly levelled. Taking the district in that map as a measure, there cannot be in the Carnatic and Tanjore fewer than 10,000 of these reservoirs of the larger and middling dimensions, to say nothing of those for domestic services, and the uses of religious purification."
The noble Earl concluded by giving notice of his intention to move for the returns to which he had alluded.
EARL GRANVILLEassured the noble Earl, that if he imagined he (Earl Granville) was one of those who thought that everything was perfect in regard to the government of India, and who did not consider that immediate and great changes were necessary, he was very greatly mistaken.
Petition referred to Select Committee on the Government of Indian Territories.

THE LUNACY BILLS.
The House went into Committee on Lunatics Care and Treatment Bill, Lunatic Asylums Bill, and Lunacy Regulation Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLORconsidered that the measures would be productive of service, and that praise was due to the noble and learned Lord (Lord St. Leonards), by whom they were introduced.
LORD CAMPBELLwould take the opportunity of offering his tribute of praise to the noble and learned Lord opposite for the great pains he had bestowed on the subject, and of expressing his high approbation of the measures. There was a single point to which he desired to call attention, and it had reference to cases where there was an inquisition, on which a jury came to the decision that the allegation of lunacy was established. It had been hitherto strictly determined according to law, that the lunatic should have a right to traverse the inquisition; but he was anxious that the right should to some extent be qualified; because he apprehended that when a person had been found lunatic, if there was the smallest ground for testing the propriety of the verdict, there would be a traverse of the inquisition, although the finding was really satisfactory, and deprived the lunatic of the power of squandering his property, and when it was for the advantage of the individual himself that the verdict should be maintained. He could imagine a case where bad advisers, for the sake of costs, might urge a party to traverse the inquisition; and there
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were cases, it should be recollected, where one of the symptoms of the disease was, that the person did not think he was insane. It would be desirable, therefore, to control the exercise of this power, and he proposed to add the qualification that the traverse should always be made with the sanction of the Lord Chancellor.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, that in one of those Bills a power was given to the Lord Chancellor to make an order to meet the views of both sides, where it could be done properly without the expense of a traverse, and he trusted that would meet the views of his noble and learned Friend; but to say that no one should have the power to traverse without the leave of the Chancellor, would be going beyond what the law had hitherto allowed.
LORD CAMPBELLthought, that after a jury had found a party lunatic, the finding should not be traversed unnecessarily.
The LORD CHANCELLORwas of opinion, that the person claiming the right must be in such a state of mind as to satisfy the Chancellor that he had a wish on the subject.
Amendments made: the Report thereof to be received To-morrow.

CAMBRIDGE BOROUGH ELECTION.
The EARL of ABERDEENmoved, to fill up the blank in the Address of the Commons to Her Majesty, with ("Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and")
On Question, agreed to.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he thought there could be no difficulty in agreeing to the Motion, because the report, unlike that of Clitheroe, followed the very words of the Act of Parliament, and the evidence fully justified the report that had been made. Considering the tremendous powers that were to be vested in the Commissioners, he trusted that due care would be observed in their appointment.
Address agreed to; and Message sent to the Commons.

SOUTH SEA AND OTHER ANNUITIES COMMUTATION BILL.
EARL GRANVILLE,on moving that the House go into Committee, proposed, at the suggestion of certain noble Lords, who were anxious to make some observations on the Bill, that the discussion should be postponed until the third reading.
LORD MONTEAGLEwould not ask his noble Friend, at that hour of the evening, to enter into an explanation of the Bill;

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but it was desirable that such explanation should be given at a future stage.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, he wished to call the attention of their Lordships to the manner in which the interests of the suitors in the Court of Chancery were affected by this Bill. In all previous cases of commutation there had only been the single alternative offered to holders of stock either to accept the new stock or to be paid off; but in the present case the holders of the stock to be converted had no fewer than three alternatives—they might either take 3½ per cents, with a reduction of their capital, 2½ per cents, with an increase of their capital, or Exchequer bonds. Now he thought that the Accountant General could not be allowed to choose according to his own will, for the suitors holding stock, which of these alternatives they should accept; and that a good deal of machinery would therefore require to be invented by his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack in order to meet this case, and to give the suitors those rights which he (Lord St. Leonards) thought they were entitled to: for he thought the suitors in the Court of Chancery should have precisely the same rights with respect to the conversion of their stock as any other holders. Take, for instance, the case of trust property: a man's trustees might have thrown his property into the Court of Chancery without his leave and against his wish, and he thought it would be clearly unjust if he were, by such a step, deprived of those rights which he would have enjoyed had his property remained out of court. As he understood the Bill, however, it merely gave the Accountant General the power to assent to the conversion on behalf of suitors in the Court of Chancery holding New and Old South Sea Annuities and Bank Annuities, but did not extend to suitors holding Consols, or 3¼ per cents. Now, it would be the most unjust thing in the world if this latter class were purposely left out. Every suitor in the Court of Chancery had just the same rights of property in his funds, and just the same right to any advantages which might be derived from their conversion, as any other person who held stock; and it would be manifestly unjust to deprive him of any advantages which he might otherwise have derived, merely because his property was in the custody of the Court. By such a measure the 17,000 suitors in whose names so large an amount of money
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stood in the Court of Chancery would be placed at a very great and unfair advantage. It devolved upon his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack to protect them by the adoption of machinery, or by the introduction into this Bill of provisions calculated to protect them, and to secure them their just right, and this, he felt sure, was a duty which would not be neglected.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that he was perfectly aware that this Bill would impose upon him a very difficult duty in respect to making proper orders in reference to the funds of suitors in the Court of Chancery which might be effected by this Bill. These funds were obviously divisible into two classes. With reference to the South Sea Annuities, and several other stocks that stood in the same category, it was expressly provided by this Bill that the Accountant General might, in lieu of them, accept either of the two new classes of stock created by this measure, or the Exchequer bonds. Nor did he (the Lord Chancellor) see that such funds would be in any different predicament from those invested in the names of trustees, whom a clause in this Bill expressly empowered to assent to any conversion which they might deem best. As to Consols and the 3¼ per cents, the case was different. Nor did he mean to deny that this part of the subject was not attended with considerable difficulty. Under former Commutation Acts, the holders of stock had merely the alternative of being paid off, or of taking the stock offered them in exchange for that which they originally held; but in the present case they had, besides, a third choice—they might say that they would take neither the one nor the other, and that they preferred remaining in statu quo. There would, therefore, he thought, be no injustice in telling suitors who held these classes of stock, that they were not in a position to claim something different from what they held at present. This Bill, instead of giving to holders of these stocks an unlimited option with respect to their conversion, merely gave them a right to claim something else to a limited extent; and the position of holders of stock whose property was in the Court of Chancery would not, therefore, be different from other holders of stock who had not accepted, or been able to obtain, the advantages of the terms of conversion offered in the Bill.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, that he was extremely sorry to have heard the statement of his noble and learned Friend. As far as regarded the holders of South Sea and the other annuities of that description, his noble and learned Friend's explanation was satisfactory; but he could not say the same with respect to what he had said of the case of the suitors who held Consols and Eeduced 3¼ per cents. His noble and learned Friend said that such persons would be left by this Bill precisely as it found them, and they would be in just the same position as parties who had not chosen to accept any of the alternatives offered by the Bill; but he forgot that justice required that suitors of the Court of Chancery should have the power to choose amongst the alternatives offered by the Bill, like other holders of stock, and that it was a manifest injustice to deprive them of this right.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he should be very glad to hear any suggestions of the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord St. Leonards) on this subject. With respect to the South Sea Annuities and other minor stocks, the conversion contemplated by this Bill was compulsory, and as to these he was gratified to find that the noble and learned Lord considered the explanation of the Lord Chancellor satisfactory. He could not deny that it would be unjust to exclude permanently from the advantages of the option given by the Bill suitors in the Court of Chancery who held Consols or Reduced 3¼ per cents. It must, however, be remembered that this part of the measure was merely of an experimental character—intended, in fact, to discover how the wind blew upon the Stock Exchange. When it was recollected that the power of converting these classes of stock was limited to thirty millions, he thought this very much diminished the force of the objection taken by the noble and learned Lord; and, under these circumstances, he thought that the Bill would be allowed to pass through its present stage.
LORD REDESDALEthought it would be a great convenience if the holders of stock had the power of converting it into terminable annuities.
House in Committee; Bill reported, without amendment; and to be read 3ª To-morrow.
House adjourned till To-morrow.