Lords Sitting of 14 March 1853

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Indemnity.
2a Grand Jury Cess (Ireland).
Reported.—County Elections Polls; Inland Revenue Office; Commons Inclosure (No. 2).
3a Mutiny; Marine Mutiny.

CRIMINAL LAW REFORM.
LORD ST. LEONARDSobserved, that he had on a former occasion, when introducing one of the Bills he had laid before their Lordships for the amendment of the law, expressed his anxiety to prevent and punish the commission of offences and assaults by husbands against wives, and against children of tender years by adults: but he was very happy to see that a Bill had been introduced in another place to confer greater powers on magistrates and courts of justice for the punishment of such offences; and he hoped some steps would be made, by the exercise of those powers of summary conviction and of indictment, to put an end to a class of outrages which certainly were a disgrace to this country. As some doubt had been expressed respecting the increase and prevalence of these offences, he begged leave to move for an Address (of which he had not thought it necessary to give notice) to the Crown for a Return of the number of convictions in England and Wales, during the several years 1850, 1851, and 1852, for murder or manslaughter by husbands of wives, or for batteries or assaults by husbands on wives: and also, like Return for the several years 1840, 1841, and 1842.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, there was no objection to agree to the Motion; but he doubted if the records would give the required information, or show in what cases the persons convicted were the husbands of the injured women.
Motion agreed to.

COMMERCIAL LAW.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to put a question to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Aberdeen) on a subject of very great importance. Their Lordships were aware of the great anxiety prevailing amongst all the mercantile classes in this country, and in a great degree also amongst

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the same class in Scotland and reland, upon the subject of the difference between the mercantile law of England and Ireland on the one hand, and of Scotland on the other. In England and Ireland, as their Lordships were aware, the land was for the most part alike; but in Scotland, the land differed greatly from that which prevailed in Great Britain. The consequence of course was, considerable inconvenience in commercial transactions between parties residing in those respective countries. The trading communities were alive to this inconvenience; and a conference had been held on the subject in the metropolis in the month of November last, attended by delegates from all the great towns of England, Scotland, and Ireland. The result was, that a deputation headed by the Earl of Clarendon went to the noble Earl then at the head of the Government (the Earl of Derby), who expressed a great desire to accede to their wishes by appointing a Commission to examine the whole of this important subject. The defects of the present laws were undeniable, and the advantages that would result from their assimilation equally so. The principle of the banking laws, for example, required investigation, and the possibility of assimilating them must be thoroughly sifted by full inquiry and evidence on the subject. This was the opinion, he believed, of the trading classes in the provinces, and it was shared by the great mercantile body of the capital, as was proved by the signatures of 220 of the principal firms in the City appended to a memorial on the subject. There was much anxiety existing that the mercantile law of England should be extended to Scotland, rather than that of Scotland to England; but he believed a preferable result would be, that a system superior to either should be created by the amalgamation of both. He begged to ask the noble Earl, whether it was intended to take any measure with a view to the promotion of an object so desirable?
The EARL of ABERDEENsaid, their Lordships were probably aware that, at the recommendation of a Committee of the House of Commons which sat in 1851, a Commission had been issued to inquire into the law of partnership. His opinion was, that the whole subject adverted to by his noble and learned Friend, deserved the attention of Her Majesty's Government, and he thought he might say that a Commission to examine and inquire into it would be issued accordingly.

MERCANTILE MARINE.
LORD COLCHESTERrose to move for certain returns, and to call their Lordships' attention to the question of our mercantile marine. Upon a former occasion he had inquired the intention of the Government as to the consolidation of the laws affecting the mercantile marine, and upon that occasion he was referred to some statements about to be made in another place upon the subject. Having, however, attended to the statement which had been made by the President of the Board of Trade, conveyed through the usual channels of information, he had not discovered any satisfactory answer to his inquiries; on which, therefore, he still desired information. He did not propose to enter into the questions as to pilotage or light-dues; but referred entirely to the laws regulating the relations, rights, and duties of masters, owners, and men in the British merchant service. This subject had come under the consideration of the Board of Trade last summer, when the late Government were in office, and he desired to draw attention to their views and intentions on the question. Among the grievances of which the shipowners complained most loudly, was the uncertainty of the laws existing upon this subject. The Board found, accordingly, an immense multiplicity of Acts of Parliament regulating the relative rights of the various parties in the mercantile marine. For instance, there were not less than ten different Acts relating to the obligations of parties in the merchant service, independent of those relating to navigation generally. This was in itself a mischief and an evil; and the importance of simplifying and ascertaining the law was prominently dwelt upon in a pamphlet recently published by a well-known shipowner, Mr. Lindsay. A Bill had been prepared by the late Government to consolidate these Acts, and to introduce such amendments into the existing regulations as had been found necessary in practice, and to carry out to their full extent the principle of the Act of 1850, which had not been then fully acted upon, in consequence of the opposition of the parties engaged in the shipping trade? Those amendments related to a great variety of subjects, of which the first he might mention was that of registry. By the present law every person wishing to enter the sea service, whether in the Royal Navy, or the merchant service, must be provided with a register; he was required to go to the

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proper office and obtain a register ticket, describing his person, place of birth, and other points fixed by the schedule of the Act. If this ticket were once lost, he could not again be employed until be obtained a new ticket. This he might do by going to the registrar, and showing that the ticket had not been lost by any fault of his, when he would obtain a new one without payment; but if he could not satisfy the registrar on this point, the Act said that he should be liable to a penalty of from 5s. to 10 s. Now this provision had given rise to great discontent among the seamen, chiefly by reason of a misconception of the law; for the custom had arisen of taking the seaman before a magistrate and getting him fined to the amount of the penalty. There was great doubt whether this was legal; and high authorities, the law officers of the Crown, had declared that it was not a legal course to pursue, and that the statute only contemplated this result—that the registrar should not deliver a new certificate, unless, under the circumstances in question of the loss of the old one not being accounted for, the fine or penalty was first paid. The seaman, of course, had strongly objected to the being brought up before a magistrate as if they had been guilty of some criminal offence; and this had occasioned such discontent among them that many of them had actually left the British service, and entered into that of foreign countries. Another cause of dissatisfaction on the part of the shipowners had been this—that the non-production by the seaman of his certificate of registry was not admitted to be conclusive evidence of desertion. This had never been intended by the Act under which the registry was required. The Act had been passed in 1834 by Sir James Graham, then, as he was now, First Lord of the Admiralty. His intention was merely to enable the Government at all times to know the number of British seamen in existence if the country should require their services. The ticket, however, being a proof of identity was useful to the seaman to enable him to show his claim for pension, or to recover wages due to him, and advantageous to the shipowner in tracing deserters; and beyond this the objections of either party arose from a mistake as to the original intention, and to the actual law in existence. It had been proposed to amend the clause as to the fine for renewal of a lost ticket, and to make a regulation for the disposal
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of the ticket in the hands of a shipping-master, on the seaman's arrival in port, to prevent its loss. Another part of the subject, of considerable importance, related to the provisions which ought to be made for the health and comfort of the seamen on shipboard, which was generally admitted to be very inadequate, and to carry further the enactments of 1850. The men complained that at present they too often had not sufficient protection from wet and cold. Again, some amendment of the law was required respecting regulations for the preservation of discipline. It had been the intention of his right hon. Friend the late President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Henley) to pass an Act explaining the powers of masters of ships to punish for breaches of discipline, and to place the law in an intelligible form, and also to extend the powers of the Naval Courts, which had been found to work well, appointed under the Act of 1850. Another clause in the Act of 1850 related to men volunteering from merchant ships for the Navy—a matter which had attracted the attention of Her Majesty's Government; and on this subject he thought it would be very desirable that regulations should be passed respecting the payment of wages, which would prevent temptations to the seamen to leave their ships. At present a merchant seaman could at any time, by merely volunteering into a man-of-war, compel the master to discharge him and pay him at once all arrears of wages. He proposed that it should be enough to give a certificate of the amount due, properly authenticated and guaranteed. There was another subject of great importance to the character of our mercantile marine. Provisions had been made for examination of masters and mates of "foreign-going" vessels with regard to their ability for taking the command of ships; and it was proposed by the late Government to extend this gradually to the "home trade" vessels above a certain tonnage; it had been objected that these would be valueless without provision for instruction. With this view it had been decided to establish schools for merchant seamen, and the object had been to find funds for the purpose. At first no means of educating persons to be called to these duties existed; but by a recent Act the Board of Trade could appropriate the surplus of the Merchant Seamen's Fund to such a purpose; and last year, there being a surplus of 4,000/., steps had been taken to institute a number of

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schools: a portion of this surplus had been applied, to the establishment of schools in Liverpool and London, in connexion with the "Sailors' Homes," and these schools had already been well attended. The Board of Trade communicated with the Committee of Council on Education requesting instruction as to the best mode of carrying out this object, and communications were held on the subject with the local marine boards of London and Liverpool. He wished to have copies of these communications produced, in order to show what were the intentions of the late Government; and he wished to know whether it was the intention of the present Government to carry out the system of schools which had been thus commenced. There was another point to which he wished to direct attention: he meant the restrictions requiring a British crew to consist of at least three-fourths British seamen. He (Lord Colchester) was sure that their Lordships, although the subject might seem a dry one, were well aware of its great importance to the welfare of the country. Our mercantile marine was the nursery of our Navy; and if we could not, in time of necessity, get sailors from that marine, to man our ships of war, where should we seek them? With this view, he objected to a measure which had emanated from the present Government, for wholly removing the restrictions against enlistment of foreign seamen in our mercantile marine. By the existing law, the Queen had power by proclamation to vary from time to time the proportion of British seamen; and it was a provision of the existing Act, that foreigners, after having served a certain number of years, might be considered British seamen. He did not object to some relaxation of these restrictions; but he could not help thinking, that if it was intended to throw open the manning of British ships to foreigners, it might hereafter be a subject of the deepest regret, and he would express his earnest hope that Her Majesty's Government might be induced to reconsider this point. He would quote the opinion lately expressed by a writer of authority on this subject. Mr. W. S. Lindsay states—
"If shipowners desire to contest successfully with other countries, the supremacy of the seas, they must devote more care and attention to the welfare of those in their service. Physically and morally they must be mindful of their seamen. They must make them as comfortable as circumstances will admit while at sea; make them feel,
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that by being faithful to their duties, and adopting a sober and correct line of conduct, they will be cared for in sickness and old age; and give them to understand that those who serve well, may always find employment in their ships, and receive promotion when competent."—[Mercantile Marine Laws considered, by W. S. Lindsay, p. 203.]
But, unfortunately, in too many instances, men were got at the lowest possible wages and cast adrift the moment they were not wanted; and surely such shipowners had only themselves to blame if, when they were in need of seamen, they could not get them. There were, however, shining exceptions. An eminent shipowner, Mr. Green, had laid out 10,000 l. in building a "Home," and providing for the comforts of his officers and men while on shore, and had always followed a fair and just system of paying them good wages—never getting rid of those who served well, but rewarding them by promotion; and the result was, that men rarely left him, and he never had any want of seamen. If such a system were pursued by other owners, there would never have any necessity for resorting to foreign countries for men to man their vessels. These were the views of the late Government on the subject, and in order to show those views more clearly, he would move for returns of correspondence between the Board of Trade and the Lords of the Treasury on the subject. The noble Lord concluded by moving—
"That there be laid before this House, Return of the Number of persons who passed their Examination for Masters and Mates of Merchant Ships, between the 1st January 1852, and the 1st January 1853, distinguishing the Number in each Class: And also,
"Copies of any Correspondence between the Board of Trade and the Committee of Council on Education relative to the Establishment of Schools for Merchant Seamen and Apprentices."
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYtrusted that he should be able to give a satisfactory answer to the noble Lord on many of the points to which he had referred. With regard to the grievance of the mercantile marine arising from the many and multifarious Acts relating to their interests, the subject of the consolidation of those Acts was under the consideration of the Government; but while so many Bills were at present before the other House of Parliament affecting the mercantile marine, it would not be expedient to introduce any general measure of consolidation at this period of the Session, as whatever was done now might have all to

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be done over again afterwards. When those measures had been passed, he hoped to be able to introduce a measure which should be complete in all its details. With respect to the system of registry tickets for seamen, he admitted that vexatious evils might have arisen in the carrying of that system into execution; but it was well known that the registry was established as much for Admiralty purposes as for the mercantile marine. The subject, however, was before the First Lord of the Admiralty, by whom the whole matter would be considered. With regard to the discipline of the merchant service, that was entirely a matter of detail. The Government, he could assure the noble Lord, were very desirous of improving the efficiency of the naval courts abroad; but this point involved to a certain extent the conflicting authorities of foreign with British law; and whatever was done to increase the power of those courts must be done with due care and deliberation. He believed the plan that had already been proposed in the other House of Parliament would not differ materially from the scheme of the noble Lord opposite for the consolidation of these Acts. The present Government proposed that the sailors on board of merchant ships should not be deprived of the right of volunteering to enter Her Majesty's ships in foreign ports; but it was not intended that the captain of the merchant ship should be required in all cases, as had hitherto been the practice, to pay all his wages to the seaman so volunteering, and transfer all his property to Her Majesty's ship. The men's wages would not in future have to be paid till the ship returned home, and compensation would be allowed, upon certain conditions, to the captain of the merchant vessel who had sustained injury by being deprived of the services of part of his crew, and being put to additional expense by employing new hands. These, he thought, were all the points which the noble Lord said he meant to touch upon in relation to the consolidation of the Acts relating to the mercantile marine. The noble Lord would see that they were not very numerous in themselves; and if they were all, he (Lord Stanley) would grant that it might be possible to introduce a Bill for the consolidation of these Acts. But when the noble Lord considered that, besides the points to which he had alluded, there were also the questions of pilotage, lighthouses, salvage, desertion, and many
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others, which were now the subjects of legislation, he would see that it would be advisable to postpone for the present the introduction of a measure of consolidation. The noble Lord had called attention to the system of examination for masters and mates of the mercantile marine. That system was working exceedingly well, and he trusted that the effect of it would be to place the masters and mates of the British merchant service in a high position as compared with any foreign merchant service in the higher branches of education. The noble Lord said that we ought to establish a system of instruction whereby masters and mates would be qualified for undergoing the examination, and that during the last year he had established two schools for that purpose, the expenses of which were to be defrayed out of the surplus funds in the hands of the Board of Trade, arising from the fees payable by masters and mates passing the examination, and from other sources. He (Lord Stanley) believed that the Board of Trade was empowered by Act of Parliament to appropriate this surplus in such a manner; but it was only right to say that certain local marine boards had objected to such an application of these funds. An application had been made to the Committee of Privy Council on Education for pecuniary assistance to these schools; and he trusted that that department would be able to give the case a favourable consideration—for he felt a very great interest in the schools, and should be sorry to see them falling into decay from want of support, because he was sure they were effecting a great improvement in the character of the mercantile marine. It was the wish of the Government that no further fees or dues should be required from the mercantile marine in respect of lights, pilotage, ballasting, the examination of masters and mates, or the engaging or discharging of seamen, than such as were absolutely necessary for maintaining the establishments in efficiency; and they wished, also, that there should be a department of the Government which should be always responsible to Parliament for the proper expenditure of the sum so levied from the mercantile marine. They desired, further, that the local boards and local authorities should have the management and direction of such matters as could best be conducted by them; but they thought, likewise, that there should be a control and superintendence on the part of a responsible depart-

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ment of the Executive to see that the objects were fairly carried out. There would be no objection to the production of the returns which the noble Lord opposite asked for.
The DUKE of NORTHUMBERLANDsaid, that a large sum of money had been raised at Shields for the erection of a sailors' home, but entirely on the strength of a promise made by the former Government, that there should be a nautical school maintained there by the Government. He wished to ask whether that promise would be ratified or not by the present Administration?
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYwas understood to answer that an application for a contribution in aid of the school at Shields had been made by the President of the Board of Trade to the Committee of Privy Council on Education, but no reply had yet been received.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that with respect to the subject before the House, he might perhaps be allowed to make a suggestion. The returns showed the number of seamen engaged in the foreign trade, but there was no return to show the number of seamen at home in each month of the year. He thought it would be highly desirable to have the number known, so that we should be able to ascertain in a moment of emergency how strong a force was obtainable. He hoped that, under the new measure, the present right of anchorage would not be taken away.
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYwas not aware of any such intention on the part of the present Government. As far as he knew, the rights of Her Majesty's ships as to anchorage had never been considered by the mercantile marine to be a serious grievance.
On Question, agreed to.

CONSOLIDATION OF THE STATUTES.
LORD LYNDHURSTrequested the attention of his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack to a question of which he had given notice, respecting the course it was the intention of the Government to pursue with regard to the amendment of the law, and also with regard to the amendment of the statutes. He had learnt when his noble and learned Friend at the beginning of the present year made his statement with respect to the measures which the Government meant to pursue on the amendment of the law, and from
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what had appeared in the usual sources of intelligence, that one of those measures related to a revision of the statutes; that it was the intention of his noble Friend to strike out without qualification from the Statute-book a great variety of Acts; that he further intended to classify the remainder, and to purify them to a certain extent from those ambiguities and defects to which they were subject. Their Lordships must be aware of the importance of this matter before they entered upon the consideration of any amendment of the law. The learned Gentleman who had been selected for the performance of that task, or rather who had been proposed to take the superintendence of it, was certainly not much to be envied. It was a laborious and certainly not a very inviting duty which he had undertaken to perform. But it was fair he (Lord Lyndhurst) should state, that in his opinion, and in the opinion of other noble and learned Lords, no other individual could be selected for the purpose of performing this task more satisfactorily for the public than the Gentleman in question, from his long experience and habit of dealing with this subject, from his general acquirements, and from his extensive attainments in the studies of the law. It appeared, however, that the object of the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack related principally or almost entirely to the past—to the correction of past legislation and past errors—and that he passed over the question what steps might be taken for the purpose of preventing the recurrence of those errors, and of avoiding such irregularities and inconsistencies in future. If that were the course about to be pursued by his noble and learned Friend, he (Lord Lyndhurst) ventured to say that that course and the measure his noble and learned Friend thought to carry into effect, would not be quite satisfactory, either to the profession or to the public. No man accustomed to the proceedings of our courts of justice—and no person was better informed on that subject than his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack—no person could attend to those proceedings without having noticed from time to time complaints made by learned Judges of the defective and careless manner in which our legislation was conducted. It habitually occurred that courts of justice were occupied for hours, and sometimes for days, in attempting to reconcile inconsistencies, to clear up obscurities, and to produce, as it were, light out of darkness;

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and often with a very unsatisfactory result. Not only so, but counsel were employed at great expense to the suitors to conduct subtle and intricate arguments directed to the same object. It was remarkable that these evils were continually accumulating without any attempt to apply a remedy. Many of their Lordships might happen to recollect that this subject was brought prominently forward by a late noble and learned Lord, Lord Langdale, who pointed out with great particularity the evils and inconveniences which attended the present system, and stated, without the least exaggeration, that it constantly happened that Acts of Parliament were so framed as almost to defy interpretation. In 1848 a noble and learned Lord now present, in an able and comprehensive speech, drew attention to the same subject, assigning many instances of the existing evils, and forcing conviction on the mind of every one who heard him; but, unfortunately, that also was attended with no practical effect. A day or two since he (Lord Lyndhurst) happened to turn over a volume of reports of the Court of Chancery, and he was struck by the statement of one of the Judges in that court, of high character and of great learning, that it was almost impossible to form a satisfactory opinion on the construction of a particular Act, so full was it of ambiguities and inconsistencies. Now it appeared to him that it was impossible to proceed further with the measures which his noble and learned Friend proposed without attempting to unite with it some remedy for the evils of which he (Lord Lyndhurst) complained. If he were asked what was the principal cause to which those errors were to be attributed, he should say that it was to the way in which amendments were introduced into Bills in their progress through both Houses of Parliament. An amendment was proposed by a noble Lord, or a Member of the other House, who, very probably had not taken the pains to read the enactment to which the amendment applied. The amendment was, perhaps, inconsistent with the general scope of the Bill, or not in accordance even with that particular clause on which it was engrafted. Was it surprising that under such circumstances errors of construction and inconsistencies of various kinds should arise in their legislation? Errors in an Act of Parliament might often be ascribed to the careless manner in which it was originally framed on its first introduction to Parlia-
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ment, either in that or in the other House of Parliament. If their Lordships would allow him for a few moments to refer to one or two instances, he thought he should be able to show what was the inconvenience and evil arising under one Act of Parliament, to show that it was an evil that was still undiminished, and was continued in an aggravated form. By the Act to which he was referring, which had reference to the County Courts, and was passed a few years ago, it was provided that where the sum sought to be recovered was under 20 l., and the plaintiff and defendant resided more than twenty miles apart, it was declared that the Judge of the Court before which the cause was tried "may" award the plaintiff costs. What was the result? An action was brought not long ago in the Court of Exchequer. It might have been brought in the County Court, as in this case the Courts had concurrent jurisdiction. The plaintiff recovered 13 l. odd, and a question arose as to the meaning of the Act with reference to costs, whether it was imperative or at the discretion of the Judge to give costs. The question was argued at great length in the Court of Exchequer, one of the learned Judges having stated that he doubted with respect to the construction of the clause. The result was, that it was decided that the word "may" must receive its ordinary interpretation, and that it was at the discretion of the Judge to give costs or not, as he thought proper. The same question came before the same Court two or three weeks after. There was the same argument with the same result. Again, after a short interval, another cause came before the Court of Common Pleas. The question was again elaborately argued; the decisions in the Court of Exchequer were cited and commented on at great length; the discussion lasted almost for an entire day; the Court took time to consider its judgment, and the Chief Justice delivered an elaborate judgment, entering on the subject at great length, and deciding that "may" was not to be used in its discretionary sense, and was to be used in its imperative sense. How easy, he asked their Lordships to mark, would it have been to avoid such a difficulty! The word "shall" was always imperative; "may" was power to do something—gave a discretion; and the introduction of the words "at his discretion" would have obviated all the difficulty, and would have saved that waste of time and unnecessary ex-

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penditure. The errors were sometimes of a ludicrous character. He would state what took place some years back on a statute with reference to the insertion of words which applied to a forged register of baptism. A heavy pecuniary penalty was at first proposed as the punishment for the offence; and, according to a subsequent clause of the Bill, it was provided that one-half of the penalty should go to the person giving information, and the other half to the parish. In the progress of the Bill through Parliament it came to be thought that a pecuniary penalty was not a proper punishment for the offence, and fourteen years' transportation was substituted. But the party who had charge of that Bill, as a legislator, either in that House or in the other, omitted to strike out the other clause of the Bill by which the penalty was to be divided; and the result was, that the whole parish became entitled to seven years' transportation, and the other half was to go to the informer. The absurdity was obvious, but he cited it as a striking instance of the carelessness with which Acts of Parliament were framed, and as showing how little attention or supervision was exercised during the passage of the statutes through Parliament. He should refer to one more instance. It related to a particular Bill, which passed two or three years ago, originating in that House, which also had reference to the County Courts. That Bill consisted of twenty-five clauses on its first introduction. Their Lordships passed it without alteration, and it went down to the other House of Parliament; sixteen clauses were struck out, and eighteen others inserted; the Bill occupied five months in its progress through Parliament; it came up to their Lordships' House again at the close of the Session, and was passed into a law without inquiry. The result was, that there was not a single clause of that Bill free from error. One object of the Bill was to give the Judge of a County Court power to execute process out of his own district under certain forms. That was the evident object of the party who proposed the amendment; but the measure, so far from effecting that object, effected directly the reverse, and left the law precisely as it had found it; the lengthened clause which had been introduced proved entirely inoperative. In another clause some directions were given as to making provision with respect to the Treasurers' accounts; and to the County Courts trea-
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surers the same powers were given as had been given by "the last-mentioned Act." On looking to the "last-mentioned Act," it appeared that the subject of it was en-entirely different, for there was nothing at all in that Act which related to the matter out of which the reference arose, and there had been no previous Act upon the subject. Again, there was a clause giving compensation to persons whose offices were abolished; and there was a provision at the end that, where a party received compensation, and was afterwards appointed to an office, the compensation should abate pro tanto so long as he should hold that office. All that was reasonable enough, and in accordance with what was the usual course. But in the progress of the Bill through the other House of Parliament another class of persons claimed to receive compensation, and a clause was introduced to that effect; but the party who had charge of the Bill, seeing that there was already a general clause of compensation, thought that all he had to do would be to add the particular offices to that clause; but he omitted adverting to the provision that the parties should not be paid in the event of their holding office; so that here were two provisions of an Act of Parliament entirely at variance with each other. He (Lord Lyndhurst) would repeat that he did not think there was in that Act a single clause which was not, more or less, in discordance with others. He might multiply these cases almost without limit. The cases to which he had referred were not nearly so strong as those pressed on their Lordships' attention in 1848 by his noble and learned Friend; but he (Lord Lyndhurst) had selected the cases on account of their recent occurrence, for the purpose of showing their Lordships the continuance of an evil which was of the gravest kind; and he called on their Lordships—he exhorted them in the strongest manner—to provide some remedy against the continuance of that evil. It had always appeared to him that it would not be difficult to provide a remedy; that they ought to have some person of competent information appointed by the Government—with such assistance as might be necessary—to make himself master of every Bill, to watch it in its progress, and to communicate, from time to time, to some authorities in either House any observations that might occur to him with reference to the Bill, either in its original or amended state. By these means,

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if the evil were not entirely got rid of, it would be very much diminished. But it was not for him (Lord Lyndhurst) or for a mere private individual to go into detail on this subject; it was a subject for the consideration of the Government; and he would take leave to conclude the short statement he had made by asking his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack whether, in regard to his measure for the revision of the statutes, it was his intention to follow or accompany it by any measure or proceeding for the purpose of remedying the evils to which the attention of their Lordships had now been called?
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that he was sure their Lordships always listened to any statement made by his noble and learned Friend with much pleasure and attention; and he could not but rejoice at the circumstance that the announcement which he (the Lord Chancellor) had to make at the opening of the present Session had led to the inquiry which his noble and learned Friend had just addressed to him. He could assure their Lordships that he felt as strongly as his noble and learned Friend could feel, the absolute necessity of coming to some arrangement whereby their legislation for the future might be made more perfect than it now was; and when he announced, on the first day of their meeting, the intention he had formed of endeavouring to consolidate the existing statutes, he stated then, and he had not the least difficulty in repeating now, to his noble and learned Friend, that one of the main objects which he should always have in view so long as he had any connexion with the work of consolidating the statutes, would be not only to devise the best mode of consolidating the legislation that was already passed, but also to provide a better mode of legislating for the future. At the same time he did not wish to mislead his noble and learned Friend or the House, by inducing them to believe what was not the truth, that he had in his mind at that moment any definite plan with regard to this subject. He had stated, on the first day of their meeting, that the best chance of arriving at such a result was not to speculate any longer as to what was the best mode of proceeding, but to proceed at once to do something. With that view he had, since he announced his intention a month ago, secured the services of a very learned gentleman, to whom his noble and learned Friend had alluded, and who to his general
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qualifications added the peculiar qualification upon this subject, that he was, practically, the only remaining Commissioner who framed the report suggesting the mode in which the statute law should be consolidated. Being necessarily unable, from his other avocations, to attend to the practical details of the matter himself, he (the Lord Chancellor) had secured the services of a few efficient men to devote themselves exclusively to the task. He had not wished that it should commence before the Easter recess, because he could not, till then, give his personal attention continuously to the subject; but he had put the matter into such a train, that he believed in the first week of next month the work would be commenced, and an attempt would be made, as he previously intimated, in the first place, to ascertain precisely and exactly of what the Statute-book consisted—for he believed there were thirty-eight quarto volumes printed, not above six or seven of which were now in force. That being done, he would take one or two rather easy subjects, and consolidate the statutes relating to them first, and turn them into better language and form, and then lay them before the House as a specimen of what could be done in that respect. When that had been completed, whether it would not be right to extend the work further, and engage a larger staff for its execution, he would not now speculate. One direction, which be should always give to every person engaged on this subject, and upon which he would always fix his own attention, was, not only to endeavour to render in a more definite and intelligible form the statutes that were already passed, but to discover and suggest a practical mode of reforming all prospective legislation likewise.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that when it fell to his lot, some years ago, to have the charge of measures in their passage through Parliament, it was his practice to have the Bills reprinted with the amendments that were made in them, and then give the House time to consider them fully, and he found that course to be one that was attended with very great advantage. He wished also to observe, that if their Lordships' House was to continue to have a great number of Bills thrown upon its attention at once at the end of a Session, no arrangement that they could make could by possibility save them from the discredit of passing Acts which nobody could comprehend.
LORD REDESDALEobserved, with reference to the first instance adduced by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Lyndhurst), upon the subject of the language of Acts of Parliament, that it showed that the Judges as well as the Legislature had something to do in the matter. If the Court of Exchequer on the third occasion had adhered to the two former decisions—[A PEER: It was another Court.]—If the other Court had also held that "may" was permissive, and that Parliament would use the word "shall" when it meant to make a thing imperative, they would have come to a conclusion which would have facilitated the proceedings of the Legislature. If that was understood to be the rule, it would be very convenient, and avoid such unnecessary expletives as "if they shall think fit."
LORD LYNDHURSTremarked that it was no new thing; for these hundred years there had been doubts upon the word "may"—whether it was to be considered permissive or not.
LORD ST. LEONARDSmust confess it was with some alarm that he had heard his noble and learned Friend say that he intended to alter the language and form of the statutes which he proposed to digest and classify. The moment you touched an Act of Parliament in its form and language you made a new statute, which must receive its construction according to the language you used. Men's titles might depend upon the old Act; and, from what had been stated of the difficulty in settling whether "may" should be considered imperative, the House might easily suppose how Very extensive might be the operation of the slightest alteration made in an Act of Parliament. The moment you attempted to alter the language of your Acts of Parliament it was no more a digest or a classification, but a code; and if we were to have a code, it must embrace both common and statute law. In Committee they had been trying the operation of what might be considered a code; and if all their Lordships had had the experience which some of them had had on that Committee, they would have some notion of the difficulties in the way of codification. The alteration of a single word would vary, to a great extent, the proposition of law. With regard to the shape in which Bills passed the Houses of Parliament, nothing but a careful perusal by a competent person taking a Bill as a whole could give the slightest chance of its
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being passed in anything like a perfect shape; and here lay the true remedy for errors—that every important Bill should be framed by a competent person, and that no one should be allowed to introduce an alteration which was not afterwards submitted to the person who framed the Bill. In Committee an alteration was often proposed and adopted, the effect of which was not seen at the moment; and it was hopeless to expect Bills to be free from gross errors unless such alterations were looked at by a person who understood the whole measure, and the bearing of the different clauses. He (Lord St. Leonards) was afraid that House must take some blame to itself for many of these errors. In Committee of the whole House, Bills did not receive that consideration which very often the importance of the subject demanded. They were not discussed in Committee of that House; and, if clauses had to be considered, it became a conversation across the table which the House generally could not hear. Their Lordships had it in their power to remedy much of the evil as far as concerned Bills in that House, by taking care that in Committee of the whole House amendments and alterations should be openly mentioned and understood, and, if necessary, regularly discussed, before being passed. But no man or set of men could be answerable for Bills brought up at the end of a Session in great numbers, and thrown upon the table of the House. The Government of the day, however, must always have great power in regard to the bringing up Bills to that House. There were many that might be introduced there which were unnecessarily introduced in the other House; and so their Lordships, left with scarcely any business to transact at the commencement of a Session, found Bills brought up at its close in such quantities as to make them utterly unable to perform the business properly. He believed that with a little care a great many of the evils which had been pointed out might be remedied.
The EARL of ABERDEENbelieved that much the same complaint had been made for 40 years, and every Government had professed their anxiety to find a remedy, but none of them had been able to do so. He could say for the present Government that they desired to facilitate the progress of legislation as much as they could by introducing into that House such measures as could properly be introduced there; and he hoped the House would find

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itself able to give due consideration to the measures that came before it.
LORD BROUGHAMneed hardly say, that the manner in which laws were made was a matter of the utmost importance. He recollected once, when he had urged the subject upon the House, and proposed a remedy for the admitted evil; a most honoured Friend, the late Lord Ashburton, said—
"Of all the changes and amendments in the law which you are proposing, this is by much the most self-evident, and it is the clear and undeniable duty of the Parliament to adopt the measure you propose; and yet you may depend upon it you will find it far less difficult to carry any or all of the rest of your proposed amendments than to obtain the sanction of Parliament to this, which is the most urgently necessary and the most clearly easy to be adopted."
He (Lord Brougham) agreed with his noble and learned Friend (Lord St. Leonards) that in altering the language of Acts of Parliament which you were digesting, as well as in framing a new law, you must have regard to the judicial interpretation already put upon certain language; but he thought the task, though difficult, was anything rather than impossible. He was convinced that means might be taken to put matters on such a footing that gross errors should be avoided, and that some course might be pursued to make it not only probable, but absolutely certain, that the House should not fall into such mistakes as his other noble and learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst) had given a few samples of—and he might have multiplied them almost without end. But though he thought that might be done, and he hoped would be done, he doubted whether they would be doing enough if they only prevented these gross errors from getting into their Statute-book. He agreed that great care must be taken in the original framing of each Act, and in the changing of its clauses during discussion, and that still greater care was necessary when it came back from another place with alterations not always in the nature of amendments; but that this could be done by the superintending care of any one individual he must entirely deny. The best security against oversight was in more minds than one being applied to the matter. His noble and learned Friend (Lord St. Leonards) had said most justly that it would be better if more care were bestowed by their Lordships in working out the details of measures in Committee and subsequent stages; but though he would not say he was hopeless
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that their Lordships would ever bestow such care—though he would not say he despaired of ever seeing such a goodly assemblage as he had the honour then to address attending in all the stages of a long and elaborate measure, remaining not only through the next critical half-hour, not only sitting through that difficult time (six to seven o'clock), but through four or five hours more, to go over a whole measure—though he would not say he entirely despaired of this, his hopes were moderate indeed. While he did not think that a substitute could be found for the exercise of the discretion and wisdom of the House—Heaven forbid that the idea should cross any man's mind of attempting to find a substitute for that!—he thought it by no means impossible, and most highly desirable, that they should take advantage of help, of other labour, and skill, and knowledge, in aid of their own—what civilians called as to evidence an adminiculum. Some years since he had laid before the House Resolutions of this kind with regard to Private Bills, proposing the formation of a Board of five permanent officers acting in conjunction with the two Houses of Parliament, and in all respects ancillary—not substituted for them, but aiding them—and performing parts of their labour which it was impossible for them satisfactorily to perform. A board of this description, under the Great Seal, under the Lord Chancellor as Minister of Justice, acting under that superintendence and in communication with the Government, would enable them to secure the due preparation of Bills, and to watch their progress through the Houses, and ascertain whether by alterations introduced at any stage error was committed, obscurity or inconsistency introduced, thus giving a measure as nearly as possible approaching to perfection. He had always thought that the appointment of a Minister of Justice would be an highly expedient measure. Men would often agree to a thing who objected to the name, and he thought the late changes in the law, the appointment of two Lords Justices in addition to more Vice-Chancellors, had—he would not say substantially converted the Lord Chancellor into a Minister of Justice—but had given him power to act as a Minister of Justice incalculably more easily than ever before. Let those who apprehended prejudices against a useful measure to be so powerful as to forbid the hope of ultimate success, remember these

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memorable words of a dear and lamented and truly venerable friend of his, and of many present, Sir Samuel Romilly, uttered by him after failing for the third or fourth time to obtain the assent of Parliament to some of those enlightened measures of amendment of the law which he so often proposed:—"I am not so unacquainted with the nature of prejudice as not to have observed that it strikes deep root and flourishes in all soils, and spreads its branches in every direction; but I have observed also that, flourish as it may, it must, by laws sacred and immutable, wither and decay before the powerful and repeated touch of truth." He added that he should again propose the same measure, if spared through another year; but, said he, "whatever my fate, the seed which is scattered has not fallen upon stony ground." And it had not; and let the judicious and prudent and moderate amender of the law take comfort to himself from this fact—every one of those measures which that illustrious man propounded—defeated at first, so that he, unhappily, did not live to see his own triumph—had now become the law of the land, together with an amount of other improvements which even he, sanguine as he was, hardly dared to expect.

COUNTY ELECTIONS POLLS BILL.
House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that as he should not be present at the future stages of the Bill, he must take this opportunity of thanking his noble Friend for a measure which he thought must be a considerable improvement in the election procedure. It must, among other advantages, have that of preventing in some, though only an inconsiderable, degree the corruption so generally and so greatly complained of, no small part of the bribery at elections taking place after the first day's poll. In once more adverting to this painful subject, he must express his dissent from many whom he greatly respected, whose disposition to extirpate that grievous evil he believed to be most sincere, regarding the means which they held to be effectual, and which he felt confident must entirely fail. An extension of the suffrage was one. Now no one could be more friendly than he was to all safe and fit extension—to all measures which would give the franchise to the classes who ought to be entrusted with it—not, Heaven forbid! by universal suf-
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frage, but by enabling all those to vote whose condition and whose intelligence gave them a title to exercise that important public trust. But his desire to see the constituent body thus extended, and even greatly extended, did not arise from any expectation that the increase of numbers would extirpate bribery. There was the same risk of bribery in a great as in a small body of electors. When parties were equally, or nearly balanced, then it was that bribery was committed. In a borough of 1,000 voters, if 900 or 950 were one way, and the rest another, no man would be silly enough to attempt purchasing a majority; but it was when four or five hundred were one way and the rest the other way, that it was worth while to gain over enough to turn the balance. This held just as true of places where there were 10,000 or 12,000 voters. When 4,000 or 5,000 were one way, and 6,000 or 7,000 the other, be it in a provincial town or a great city—he, of course, could not be supposed to speak of that on the river which washed these walls—then it was that bribery became practicable, and that men were tempted to commit it. The great bulk of the electors were respectable persons, and were long found to vote on either side. A few hundreds of another kind held back, and were sought by the agents of corruption as open to bribery and as able to turn the election. The total number of the voters had nothing to do with the question. The other favourite expedient was, the method of secret voting. He had always been unable to perceive how this could check bribery, after the best attention he could give the arguments in its favour. He spoke not of its affording a protection against influence and intimidation, though on that he conceived the argument also failed. But he was now speaking of its alleged operation in preventing bribery; and with all his respect for the many persons of importance in such controversies, and all the attention he could bestow upon their reasonings, he professed his utter inability to discern how the plan could in any the least degree prevent bribery. It would, no doubt, prevent, and most effectually prevent, all punishment of the offence—all prosecutions for it would be impossible—because no detection of it could take place. But how an offence was to be prevented by giving impunity to the commission of it, he was at a loss to imagine. The only result would be, that

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the course of the offence might be charged. Those who wished to purchase votes would make the payment of the price depend upon the event of the contest—they would engage to give the voters so much if Mr. So-and-So was returned. The confidential agent would make this bargain with the voters, and would thus convert each one into an active coadjutor, by making it his interest both to vote himself, and get others to vote with him. His hopes of extinguishing bribery rested on other grounds, and he earnestly besought his noble friends of the Government to bestow their best attention on this important amendment of the law. His noble Friend at the head of the Government had that evening gladdened him by the affirmative answer he had given on the important subject of the Commission on the assimilation of the Mercantile Law. He trusted he would now further declare the disposition of the Government to take effectual steps for improving the Bribery Law—whether by providing the means of effectually prosecuting the offence, or by increasing the punishment of it, or by requiring such a declaration as he (Lord Brougham) had once and again strongly recommended, or by all of these means.
The EARL of ABERDEENsaid, he could assure his noble and learned Friend that he himself could not be more desirous or anxious to check the present amount of bribery and corruption than were Her Majesty's Government. This being the case, of course the subject occupied their most serious attention, and he trusted that something might be done. His noble Friend the Member for the City of London (Lord John Russell), if he had not actually given notice of a measure in the other House of Parliament, had stated that his attention was directed to the subject, with the view and hope of meeting the evil to which the noble and learned Lord had referred, and which, if it continued as it existed at present, would go far to bring our whole representative system into contempt. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) was not prepared to say that at that moment any measure was ready for introduction into that or the other House of Parliament; but that something would be attempted he thought he might confidently say, and he hoped their Lordships would give their active co-operation in promoting a measure which had really become a matter of necessity.
LORD BROUGHAMhoped that not
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only their Lordships, but the other House of Parliament, would show that they were resolved in good earnest to endeavour to put down this evil.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEconsidered that it was incumbent upon Parliament to do all in its power to repress the practices which had been lately exposed by the Committees of the other House; and he had not the slightest doubt that they would give their ready and willing co-operation and assistance to any measures calculated to attain that end. He must say, however, that he thought, in justice to the country, they ought not to lay too much stress upon the exposures which were now made. He did not mean to mitigate or to attempt to explain away the nature of the transactions which had been disclosed before Committees of the other House; but he had heard it said repeatedly that there was obviously a greater and grosser amount of corruption at the last general election than had ever prevailed before, and that the crime of bribery and corruption was on the increase—and he wished to say that, for his own part, he greatly doubted the truth of that statement. He did not think it desirable that the idea should go forth, not only to this country but to the world at large, that the whole Parliamentary constituencies of the country were in a gradual course of progressive corruption. It must be remembered that a great change had taken place in the course of investigation applied to these cases. A short time since it was indispensable not only to allege cases of bribery and treating, and to prove the acts themselves, but to connect them with the candidate—the person principally interested in the result of the election. That practice, as their Lordships were aware, was now entirely altered, and in the case of any contested election it was only necessary to prove one single case of an offence of this description, though wholly unknown to the candidate, in order to invalidate the election, and displace the person returned. He believed, from his own experience, he might venture to say that there was scarcely a Member of the other House who had gone through a contested election, who, if all the transactions of his election were investigated, would not be exposed to the greatest risk of being unseated. No man who had passed through a contested election could be ignorant that when men were engaged in a struggle of that kind, many persons

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placed themselves in the position of friends of the candidate, with whom the candidates had no reason to refuse to act, and that when such persons became excited during the conflict, they might be induced to commit these acts without expecting the responsibility to attach to any one but themselves. If, however, such acts were now proved before Election Committees, they were enough to invalidate the returns. Under these circumstances he thought that, because at the last election a great many offences of this description were proved to have taken place, it was not just and fair to the constituencies of this country to conclude that they were now far more corrupt than they were formerly. His belief was, that the operation of public opinion, and the gradual discouragements applied by legislation of late years, had tended materially to diminish practices of this kind; and while he considered it the duty of both Houses of Parliament to apply their best energies to their repression, he thought they should not hastily jump to the conclusion that the corruption was grosser and more extensive than on any former occasion.
The EARL of CARLISLEfully concurred in the spirit of the remarks which had just fallen from his noble Friend, whose experience in the matter of elections had been somewhat analogous to and concurrent with his own. And yielding, as he did to no man in his wish to check and prevent bribery and corruption, he still thought it would not be for the benefit, even of virtue itself, to make the pursuit and running down of what was vicious, go on with so much want of discrimination as to include in it what the general sense of mankind would never regard as wholly and equally reprehensible. For instance, the act of a man who gave a glass of beer to a voter who had made a long journey to support a candidate, ought not to be looked on in the same light as a person committing direct and downright acts of bribery. He trusted the Bill now under consideration would be found serviceable, because it had been found from experience that the second day's poll not only imposed considerable additional expense on the candidate, but had a tendency to lead parties to have recourse to bribery and other discreditable acts, which he was glad to observe the Legislature showing a strong disposition to discourage.
Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

OFFICE OF EXAMINER (COURT OF CHANCERY) BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR,in moving that the House go into Committte on this Bill, said he wished to make a single remark with reference to a petition which he had presented to their Lordships on Friday evening last from the Metropolitan and Provincial Law Association, on the subject of one of the clauses. That clause provided that the Examiners should be appointed from the class of barristers. The members of that association complained of that provision, alleging that it was a grievance to them that the chances of appointment should not be extended to solicitors as well as barristers, and that solicitors should be ineligible to those offices. He wished to observe for their satisfaction that the subject had been well considered in another place; but independently of that, it would be impossible not to confine the appointment to barristers without acting on a different principle from that which had been laid down in all analogous cases. The new Vice-Chancellors must be selected from the class of barristers, and the duties of the Examiners were now so extensive and so important, that it would be impossible to secure fit persons to discharge them from any other class than that of barristers. The solicitors must, therefore, not consider that any slur was cast upon them by this provision of the Bill.
House in Committee; an Amendment made: the Report thereof to be received To-morrow.
House adjourned till To-morrow.