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The EARL of POWIS moved for the following Returns relating to the accounts in the General Reports of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners:—
Return explanatory of Table 9a. in Appendix to Third General Report, distinguishing in each year receipts and payments on account of capital from those on account of revenue (common fund); the same as to Table 6 (episcopal fund); abstract of receipts from episcopal property, and payments for episcopal purposes, from extinction of episcopal fund, 1850, to November, 1852, distinguishing capital from revenue; abstract of receipts and payments of the common fund, from November, 1850, to November, 1852, distinguishing capital from revenue; return of fines and of purchase-moneys directed to be invested by the 6 & 7 Vict. cap. 37, sec. 6, and of the amounts and modes of such investments; return of amount borrowed by Commissioners from Queen Anne's Bounty, under the 6 & 7 Vict. cap. 37; estimate of receipts and expenditure on account of revenue for the year ending November, 1853, distinguishing receipts arising from episcopal property, and amount to be expended for episcopal purposes; return of land, stocks, money. Exchequer Bills, and other property received by Ecclesiastical Commissioners for special purposes and trusts—the investments of such property, and amount and nature of annual and other liabilities undertaken by Commissioners in respect thereof; detail of tithes sold by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, stating the parish and amount of rentcharge, and the purpose to which such rentcharge was previously applied.
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The noble Earl explained, that he asked for these fresh accounts because he considered the existing returns to be defective and inconsistent with each other. One objection to them was, that the Commissioners were selling a large amount of land and stocks, and in their accounts the receipts and payments on these accounts were mixed up with their ordinary receipts and payments, and that there was no distinction made between payments on account of capital, and payments on account of revenue; and the items were so mixed up as to create a great degree of uncertainty with respect to the state of property in the possession of the Commissioners. There was nothing in the existing accounts which showed the principles on which the Board was acting, and there were, besides, discrepancies in the figures as they appeared in the second and third general reports which rendered it desirable that more accurate and distinct returns should be furnished. Having quoted some statement of figures from the accounts, with the view of showing the defective mode in which they were kept, the noble Earl concluded by observing that he did not know whether those accounts had been laid before the Commissioners for auditing the public accounts, and had passed the Government audit, or not; but if they had, that circumstance afforded a proof that the establishment of a Government audit for railways would give no great security to the shareholders against improper dealing. He would venture to say that no railway company would have gone on ten years without attempting to show a balance of their capital account.
§ The EARL of CHICHESTERwould not attempt to follow the noble Earl in explaining the supposed discrepancies in the accounts, which, however, he was prepared to show, were quite accurate, and capable of satisfactory explanation. He was quite willing that the House should comply with the latter part of the Motion, but as to the former part, the arrangement of that information would occupy so much time that he doubted very much whether it would be ready before the end of the present Session; and on the 5th October, when the next report of the Commissioners would be presented, the returns would be not only more complete, but, he had no doubt, satisfactory to the noble Earl. With regard to the object of the noble Earl, he perfectly agreed with him that the public ought to be put in possession of a fuller 1034 statement of the expenditure and receipts of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. The accounts in the reports were merely cash accounts, and did not profess to give that kind of balance sheet required by the noble Earl. It should be borne in mind that, for some years past, a large portion of the annual expenditure was from capital. The Act which empowered the Commissioners to borrow 600,000l. from Queen Anne's Bounty, was passed for the express purpose to make annual grants in aid of poor districts out of that capital sum, until, by the falling in of leases, and the general improvement of the Church estates, the revenue became sufficient to bear these charges. He thought the information required by the noble Earl quite reasonable and proper, and had no doubt that the whole of it would be given in the next report of the Commissioners.
§ The EARL of POWIS,after what had fallen from the noble Earl, was content to wait till the beginning of the next Session, when another report of the Commissioners would be before them, for the bulk of the returns he had moved for, and would now confine his Motion to the last two on the list.
§ Motion, as amended, agreed to.