Lords Sitting of 29 July 1853

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Entry of Seamen; Stamp Duties (No. 2).
2a Resident Magistrates (Ireland); Turnpike Trusts Arrangements; Sheep, &c. Contagious Diseases Prevention; Public Libraries (Ireland and Scotland); Burgh Harbours (Scotland); Elections; Sheriff Courts (Scotland). Reported.—Registrar of Meetings; Stamp Duties.
3a Customs Duties; Dublin Parliamentary Registration.

NATIONAL EDUCATION.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to ask his noble Friend (the Earl of Aberdeen), a question respecting the measure in which he naturally took very great interest, the Education Bill. He was anxious to know if the Government intended to pass it this Session. He would take this opportunity of setting his noble Friend (Lord John Russell) right, or rather noting an omission in the statement he had lately made in another place. For the expressions used by him respecting the labours of the Education Committee of 1816 and 1818, he (Lord Brougham) felt duly grateful, as the only survivor of that body except his noble Friend at the table (the Earl of Haddington); but the commendation had been confined to the Committee's inquiries respecting charitable trusts, and the legislative measures proposed and carried by them on that important subject. His noble Friend had omitted to state that the same body had originated the measure respecting Education which had since been carried into effect, and which continued to be pursued. There was a report of that celebrated Committee recommending the very course afterwards taken, of grants for schools to be applied by the Government; and the mode of application had also been pointed out. He (Lord Brougham) had no power of giving effect to this report until he came into office; but he then obtained the concurrence of Earl Grey and his other colleagues to the adoption of the plan, and the grants were accordingly in 1833 begun which had since been increased with the most beneficial effects. He owed this statement to the memory of a body so often the object of ignorant censure and party clamour.
The EARL of ABERDEENsaid, it was with great regret he had to inform, his noble and learned Friend that it was utterly impossible to proceed this Session with the Education Bill.

SCHOOLMASTERS IN SCOTLAND.
The DUKE of BUCCLEUCHrose to inquire what were the intentions of Her Majesty's Government with respect to Scotch schoolmasters? He wished to make a few observations, in order to explain what was his reason for putting this question. The Act which first created the Scotch schools was passed in 1690. A commission which was appointed in the year 1803 to inquire into the subject of schools in Scotland reported that the remuneration of the schoolmasters as fixed by the Act of 1690, was totally inadequate, the highest rate of payment being 11 l. a year, and the lowest 5l. An Act was consequently passed for raising those salaries, making the maximum salary 22 l. and the minimum 16 l. a year, and it provided that at the end of every 25 years the salaries of the schoolmasters should be revised according to the average return of the price of oatmeal during that period, calculated from the return made by the sheriffs to the Court of Exchequer in Scotland. The wording of that Act was very ambiguous, and liable to lead to a great deal of misapprehension. This revision was made pursuant to the Act in 1828, and the maximum salary was fixed at 34 l. per annum, and the lowest at a proportionate rate. At Whitsuntide 1854, the revision would again take place, and their salaries would be paid according to the average of the last twenty-five years, and this would effect a diminution of one-fourth in their salaries. Before that diminution the salaries which they received had not been one farthing more than was absolutely necessary, if, indeed, as large as they ought properly to have been. The subject of the salaries of schoolmasters had, on several occasions, come under the notice of their Lordships, and, indeed, a Committee had been appointed to inquire into the facts of the case. That Committee had not made any report; but he believed that it was their unanimous opinion that the sum of money paid to the schoolmasters ought not, on any account, to be reduced, and that the inhabitants should be empowered, if they thought fit, to make he a legal assessment for this purpose for limited amount. As this was the last year in which the salaries of the school-masters would be paid according to the
974
existing scale, he was anxious to know what plan the Government would be likely to adopt. It had been his intention, at one time, to have had a Bill introduced to continue the present salaries until Parliament should otherwise determine; but he had relinquished that intention, in conseqnence of understanding that a Bill would be introduced by the Government for that purpose, or, at all events, to continue the present saleries for one year. He had some weeks back had an opportunity of seeing some of the Scotch schoolmasters, and they certainly at that time believed that such was the intention of the Government; and the general impression now that such a belief was not well founded tended to place the schoolmasters in a condition of great doubt and apprehension as to what their position would be after next Martinmas, for between this and then, if the present system continued, it would be necessary to strike the average from the prices of oatmeal according to the returns made to the Court of Exchequer in Scotland. For these reasons he wished to inquire from his noble Friend whether it was intended to propose a continuance Bill this Session, as originally understood by the schoolmasters, or what other steps were intended to be taken on the subject?
The EARL of ABERDEENhoped that his noble Friend would give him credit for taking an interest in the welfare of the schoolmasters of Scotland as great as he himself did, and he quite agreed that they were a most meritorious body of men; but at the same time he did not think that his noble Friend had quite accurately described their condition. At an early period of the present Session a deputation of schoolmasters had waited upon him, and had represented to him that the payment of their salaries in November was doubtful, and that they were not certain whether they were legally entitled to it under the present system. Under those circumstances he had promised that a Bill should be introduced to secure for one year the payment if their present stipend. He had, however, since that time, discovered that the payment of their salaries was perfectly unquestionable; and he therefore had deemed it unnecessary to introduce a Bill to accomplish an object which could be obtained without. During the next Session of Parliament he honed that some change would be made in their condition by the measure on education which the Government then intended to introduce, and which they had

975
hoped to have been able to carry this Session, but which they had been compelled to postpone. If that measure should not be proceeded with next Session, of course the first care of the Government would be to supply a separate Act to apply to that subject. He had not thought it desirable to introduce an an Act during the present Session for the purpose of giving the Scotch schoolmasters salaries this year, when no doubt whatever existed as to their legal right to exact them.
The EARL of HADDINGTONexpressed a hope that the statement of the noble Earl, with regard to the intentions of the Government, would have the effect of allaying any alarm or apprehension that might have existed in the minds of the schoolmasters.
The DUKE of BUCCLEUCHwished to know if he understood his noble Friend to say that the present salaries were secure until June next?
The EARL of ABERDEEN:That the present salaries would continue until June was quite certain, but whether into the month of June was, he believed, doubtful.
The DUKE of BUCCLEUCHthought it would be much more satisfactory to the schoolmasters and the public generally, if there were any doubt on the subject—and there appeared to be very great doubt—that should be at once set at rest. That could be done now more easily than if they waited for the chance of carrying a contested Bill upon the general question of education in another Session of Parliament.

ELECTIONS BILL.
LORD BROUGHAMmoved the Second Reading of the Elections Bill, which had been sent up from the Commons. It was introduced by Mr. Butt, of the Western Circuit, and contained provisions which were most fit to be adopted for shortening the period between the Writs and the Election, reducing the time from sixteen and ten days, for counties, to ten and six days; and in boroughs, from eight and three days, to six and three—the present period being manifestly longer than was necessary, and the shortening both tending to lessen the expense, and somewhat to diminish illegal practices. Power was also given to the Queen in Council, subject to the course of proceeding there, to change the polling places on application of the magistrates at quarter-sessions. The time of polling at elections for the Universities was also most properly restricted to five days, in-
976
stead of fifteen, as it at present was—and the Vice Chancellor was authorised to appoint polling places, and deputy Vice Chancellors to take the poll. Thus far the Bill went, and no one could object to its provisions. But he had been urged by persons of respectability to make a material addition, by introducing clauses extending the University franchise to those having the degree of B.A. and B.C.L., from those having the degrees of M.A. and D.C.L., and also to enable Graduates, whose names had ceased to be on the boards, and who had thus lost the right of voting, to be registered upon payment of a moderate fee, instead of the annual sum now required to continue their right of voting. He inclined to think that these provisions would be very fit to be introduced, but not into a Bill like the present, confined to the time and mode of taking the poll—the rather as the Bill had come up from the House of Commons without any such extension of the franchise having been there considered. He entirely denied the exclusive privileges of that House to deal with the subject of Elections. Indeed he had once and again urged on their Lordships the duty of even originating measures on that subject; and shown remarkable instances in which the Lords had propounded and carried changes in the Election Law, as in some of the statutory provisions respecting bribery. But this was a course fit to be pursued rarely and with much discretion; and when an Election Bill had been passed on wholly different matters, it would be inadvisable for their Lordships to deal with the franchise in such a manner that their enactments must be rejected by the Commons, or passed by a vote agreeing to those amendments, without going through the usual stages of three readings and commitment. He took leave, in connexion with this subject, to urge upon the Government the necessity of most carefully and deliberately applying themselves to the important subject of revising the existing electoral Laws, as they had announced was their intention. The measures which they would have to frame must be directed both to rendering elections pure, by extirpating the corruption so widely complained of in all its branches, and to amending the possession of the franchise, as well as its distribution locally. The subject was of incalculable moment, and unfortunately its difficulty was equal to its importance. The consideration of one circumstance, how-

977
ever, gave him great comfort. We were happily no longer under the conflicting influence of extreme opinions and feelings among adverse classes. There was not now as heretofore, on the one hand, an unreasoning, unbending resistance to all change in our elective system; nor, on the other hand, a desire of change as unreflecting, a love of mere change as such without regard to improvement. Opinions on the whole subject were much more moderate, feelings far more temperate than in the days of the last controversy upon reform; and this be regarded as most fortunate for both the Government and Parliament in applying themselves to the consideration of the subject. He had great confidence in the discretion as well as the firmness of his noble Friends, who were about to grapple with it. He ventured to hope that they would not lose sight of one, in his view a cardinal point, the improvement of the representative body as well as of the elective body; for both effects would be produced, by giving the franchise to classes well qualified to vote with discrimination, and thus securing the representation of those classes by Members well qualified to act with intelligence.
Bill read 2a.

SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
The EARL of ABERDEEN,in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said it was a measure of law reform from which anticipated the greatest advantages to the people of Scotland. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) was, he believed, of opinion that the Bill did not go fat enough, and, in his ardour for legal reform, would have been willing to attempt a much more extensive alteration in the law. But he trusted that he would be ready to accept the improvements in the law proposed by this Bill, and that the noble and learned Lord would also do him the justice to admit that the Government were desirous of adopting, with due caution, every species of reform in the law which could be required. The present Bill was so completely technical in its character that it was neither necessary nor desirable for him to explain its provisions ii detail. The Bill had two objects—namely to expedite the proceedings, and to render the administration of justice in the sheriff courts both cheap and speedy; and in both respects he thought it promised to effect
978
a most beneficial change in the present law of Scotland. The Bill, as amended, had received the almost unanimous support of the Scotch Members, and he trusted that it would meet with the assent of their Lordships. The noble Earl moved that the Bill be now read 2a.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that his noble Friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) had correctly stated that he had, in bringing forward the County Courts measure, referred to the Scotch Sheriff Courts as an example of local judicature. But he had distinctly, at that time (1830), objected to the nonresident Sheriff, and maintained that he ought always to reside. His objection to the present Bill was, that it was extremely inadequate to remedy the evils so generally complained of; but he by no means considered it as without merit, and even considerable merit. The step made was in the right direction, though very small as regarded the extension of the Small Debt Jurisdiction, from 8l. 6s. 8d. to 12 l.; and this he had lately taken leave to call a homœopathic remedy. But he admitted that other provisions of the Bill did not deserve that name, especially the abolition of written pleadings, arguments and proofs, and the substitution of oral procedure. He also approved of taking away the appeal from the Sheriff in causes of 25 l. and under, and of giving the option in all causes of appeal to the Court, and of making the decision final by consent of both parties. The optional clause had likewise been adopted in substance from the English system, so as to extend indefinitely the Small Debt Jurisdiction by consent of parties. For these reasons he should not oppose the second reading of the Bill, from which he hoped some good might arise, and especially the great good of its laying the foundation for a more ample and satisfactory measure hereafter. As to the fitting structure of that larger measure, there might be doubts entertained, and on one point he had never disguised from himself the great difficulties that surrounded it—he meant abolishing the double sheriffship, and having only one constantly resident Sheriff. But on one subject, he really could see no doubt or difficulty whatever. Mr. Craufurd's Bill, including the matter he had just mentioned, had been very ably and carefully prepared; and he believed it gave great satisfaction to a great part of the community in Scotland. It had, however, met with a formidable opposition, both in the country and

979
in the Commons. As far as it meant to extend the Small Debt Jurisdiction, and to place Scotland on the footing on which England stood since the new system was established, be could not understand the ground of objection. By all means let the same causes be tried in Scotland with the facilities, the cheapness, and the despatch of the English County Courts, and the appeal confined to matter of law. We used to envy Scotland for her local judicature—Scotland now envies, and justly envies England. This was one of the instances in which the assimilation of the laws in the two countries would be of perfect safety and of indisputable advantage. His noble Friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) spoke of his ardour as a reformer; but he was anything rather than a rash one, and was often complained of as not going far enough.
The DUKE of BUCCLEUCHsaid, he thought the Bill would prove of very great benefit to Scotland in the administration of justice. He was especially glad to observe that the arrangement as to the double sheriff, the sheriff-depute and the sheriff-substitute, was still maintained. He knew there was a strong feeling in different localities in Scotland against the double judicature; but, so far as his experience and knowledge on the subject enabled him to judge, he had seen nothing to alter his opinion that at present the existing system was the best that could be maintained.
Bill read 2a.
House adjourned to Monday next.