THE INDIAN ARMY. (Hansard, 15 July 1853)

§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH

said, that as he apprehended that there would be no objection to the production of the papers which, according to notice, it was his intention to move for, and feeling, therefore very unwilling to make any observations on the subject matter to which those papers referred, he should confine himself to one topic only, namely, the proposed increase of the Indian army. He would touch upon that one topic now, because he apprehended that if he were not to express what he felt at the present moment, he could not do so at any other time with advantage, inasmuch as when once the Clause in the Bill now before the House of Commons, for the increase of the European troops in the army of the East India Company, came up to their Lordships, though they might reject it, they could not make any substitution of another for it. However little, therefore, he might hope to succeed in making any impression on 251 the Government, he thought it right to state, at the present moment, his objections to the proposed mode of increasing the military force of that country. He would have taken that opportunity of going into several points of detail which had occurred to him since he addressed their Lordships four or five weeks ago, and he would have done that under the impression that any amendments consequent upon any changes of opinion produced in the minds of Her Majesty's Government, could be more conveniently made in the House of Commons than in that House at a later period of the Session; but he abstained from that course in the confident expectation that when the Bill did come to their Lordships' House, Her Majesty's Government would be disposed to take into their favourable consideration any reasonable objections that might be urged by him to those matters of detail to which it was his intention to direct their Lordships' attention, his whole object being to make the Bill as perfect as he could by the suggestions it might be in his power to offer. In the course of the past week he had introduced a Bill into their Lordships' House which consisted of that clause in the Government Bill now before the House of Commons, which had reference to the increase of the Company's European troops, though he admitted that he was indisposed to receive that clause. When he proposed to introduce that Bill, he said he did not approve of that mode of increasing the military force, but he did not think that anything he could urge would induce Parliament to adopt a different mode, and therefore he acquiesced in that measure, and thought it would be well to save time, and place at once at the disposal of the Government the additional force that would be provided by that Bill. The events that had come to their knowledge within the last few days, had not induced him to consider it less important to increase the military force of the country, and he was ready to increase that force in any manner, so urgent did he conceive the necessity for doing so. Yesterday a circumstance had come to their knowledge, on the arrival of the mail from India, which might make, on the minds of many of their Lordships, an impression that more force was now required in India than probably they might have thought to have been required there at an earlier period of the year. The change of opinion that might on that point have taken place in their Lordships' minds 252 had not been produced upon his, because their Lordships would recollect that from the commencement of the war in Ava he had deprecated it, and had stated his opinion of its great importance, and the great embarrassment it would produce. He had never entertained the slightest expectation that the Burmese Government would consent to the cession of the province which had been appropriated by the Indian Government, and, therefore, there was no disappointment whatever to him in the news that had been just received. He now only took the same view of their position in Ava that he had always taken. He regretted to say that in the commencement of that war, in its conception, and in its conduct, he could not anywhere perceive the impress of the mind of a statesman, or of a general. They had advanced beyond the point which was the best possible one to occupy, and had taken as their frontier the very worst they could by any possibility have taken. They had placed themselves in a position in which they could neither stand firm with safety, nor advance with advantage. It was a peculiarity in this war that the greater the success the greater the embarrassment; and if they were to advance to Ava, and drive from Ava the king of that country, their difficulty would only be greater than it was at present. At that moment no reasonable man could look forward to the termination of that war with the same degree of confidence that he might have entertained at its commencement. That was a serious state of things, and he was certainly most deeply impressed with the conviction, that on account of their position there, irrespective of the effect which the events that were taking place in the East of Europe must have on their position everywhere, and especially in India, an increased military force was absolutely required for their security in that country. But he must say, he could not approve of the manner in which that increase was proposed to be made. In the first place, he must state with great regret that he could not but see in this proposal some indication of an apparent intention, not of decreasing the European military force in India, but of substituting for Her Majesty's troops an equal number of the Company's European troops. He would deprecate that change, as most injurious to Her Majesty's service, and to the interests of India and of England. The advantage to Her Majesty's troops of the 253 experience they acquired in India, was infinite, even when they were not engaged in actual hostilities. The very marching through the country was in itself instructive; and there being, at the large stations, cavalry, infantry, and artillery, in considerable numbers, there was not one of those stations in which Her Majesty's troops might not learn, and ought not to learn, as much as they could now learn in the camp at Chobham, by the continual movement of large masses of men, and its display of the mode in which the operations of war are carried on. He recollected well that the Duke of Wellington once told him that the British troops in India came nearer to his idea of what the Roman legions must have been, than any troops he had ever seen. They should think that it was a very great advantage to this country to have the opportunity of sending their regiments to India, which, when brought to England in succession, formed the nucleus of an army, being practically acquainted, in all their details, with the operations of war. There was another advantage in using Her Majesty's troops instead of the forces of the East India Company, namely, that Her Majesty's troops were constantly removed, whereas the troops of the latter were not; and it should be a constant principle of their policy, in the treatment of Indian affairs, to make all persons sent from hence to that country, look homeward, and have England in view rather than India—to look forward to their promotion in Her Majesty's service as the end of their exertion, rather than in the local service. But an Indian force was in the nature of a colonial force, and though individuals might come home, a regiment never came home. With a view, therefore, to keep up the connexion between this country and India, it was necessary that a large force belonging to Her Majesty's troops should be employed there. He was not speaking with the slightest disrespect of the troops of the Indian Government. He had seen them himself, and he must say, that better disposed men there could not be—there could not be men by whom officers could more desire to be followed into action; but there were circumstances connected with the formation of these regiments which must make them inferior to Her Majesty's regiments, and which caused new regiments to be considerably inferior for a long time after they were formed. They must be considerably inferior to Her Majesty's on this account—that the Com- 254 pany's European regiments had to furnish non-commissioned officers, not only to their own regiments, but to Native regiments, and to furnish persons to fill various civil and military offices. It was therefore impossible, without a miracle, that the non-commissioned officers could be equal, on all occasions, to the non-commissioned officers in Her Majesty's regiments, who had only their own regiments to provide for; and they must be all aware how much the efficiency and discipline of a regiment depended upon the efficiency of the non-commissioned officers. They should also consider in what manner new regiments were officered. The appointments were made in the Company's regiments according to seniority of service, and all those regiments must be officered by the senior officers of each grade in the service. There were only two European regiments on the Bengal establishment, and seventy-six Native regiments, and each of those European regiments would take forty-eight officers, and as the officers would all be drawn from different regiments, the new regiments must be officered by men, no two of whom had ever probably seen each other before, and all of whom might be ignorant of the European troops and service, and acquainted only with the Sepoys. They must, moreover, draw their non-commissioned officers from the European regiments, already weakened by detaching non-commissioned officers to the Native regiments. Under these circumstances it was impossible that these regiments could be so effective for a length of time as any of the regiments now in Her Majesty's service. After the lapse of years, no doubt, they might be possessed of the same efficiency as the European regiments, but for a number of years they must be comparatively inefficient. He recollected that when he was at the Board of Control, about twenty-five years ago, he looked into the statistics of Her Majesty's regiments and of the Company's regiments, and he found at that time that the Company's regiments were renewed once in eight years, and Her Majesty's regiments wore renewed once in twelve years—a most decided proof that there must be some internal defect in the organisation of the Company's regiments, which led to a greater amount of casualties and invaliding than prevailed in Her Majesty's service. There was a circumstance that had come under his observation which might have led to that unfortunate result. He was particularly struck on seeing one 255 of those regiments now at Ava, and one of the most distinguished there—the 1st European—by the extreme youth of the soldiers, and questioned an officer on the subject; and he was assured by him that the men sent out for the Company's service were so young that they were more liable than other men to take the malaria, which nearly destroyed them, and they hardly ever attained European strength, or became what European soldiers ought to be, in consequence of being exposed to the climate at such early years. He (the Earl of Ellen-borough) wrote home in most earnest terms, suggesting that the custom should be abandoned—that the recruits should be kept in this country for two or three years more, and that they should only be sent out when they were capable of performing the service that was required of them, and when they would be less exposed to the necessary consequences of the climate. Whether anything had been done in consequence of his representations he did not know; but certainly, nothing was clone while he was in India. On these grounds he objected to the mode of the increase proposed; but he could hardly venture, unacquainted as he was with the details of Her Majesty's service, to propose any other mode of increasing that force. It would be objectionable to take one soldier from this country under present circumstances, and it was absolutely necessary that the army in India should be increased. He knew no other mode in which it could be done, except that which was usually adopted, namely, by forming second battalions. Within a short time sixteen or eighteen regiments had returned from India, and every one of those regiments, having distinguished themselves, fairly deserved any marks of favour that could be shown to them. Every one of them had at their disposal non-commissioned officers acquainted with the country; who might be sent out as non-commissioned officers to the second battalions. There must be at Her Majesty's disposal an ample number of officers acquainted with the country, who might also be placed in those second battalions; and the advantage to the troops of having men acquainted with the climate and habits of the country as officers and non-commissioned officers, it was impossible to overestimate. He knew to what extent the health of a regiment, when it first arrived in India, was affected by the circumstance of there being in it any one who knew anything about the climate. There was but one other point to which he 256 must entreat their Lordships' attention for one moment, though it did not refer, undoubtedly, to any of the returns which he desired to have placed upon the table by the Motion he intended to make. There was a provision in the India Bill now before the House of Commons, to which he earnestly desired to call the attention of their Lordships, because he thought it went to destroy the efficiency of the system Government proposed to adopt. He alluded to the provision by which the Directors to be appointed by the Crown, were permitted to sit in Parliament. He considered that provision to be in the last degree pernicious; especially when taken in conjunction with an alteration very recently made in a provision of the Bill, whereby any person who had been in India for ten years, whether he was in the service of the Government or not, might be appointed a Director. That would be most pernicious in its operation, because what all of them must desire was to separate the Government of India in England from the influence of the politics of the day, and to keep it as much as possible distinct from any connexion with them. The result of this provision would be, that a young man, on returning from India, would, by spending a little money, get a seat in the House of Commons; and being in the House of Commons, and eligible to fill the office, would naturally recommend himself to the Government, whatever that Government might be, and would be placed in the Direction instead of a better man. By this means there would not only be placed in the Direction the nominees of the Government, who were placed there not on account of their fitness for office, but those persons would introduce into the Court a political bias, which must be most incurious to the transactions of Indian business. The average life of man might be increasing and improving, but the average life of Government was undoubtedly becoming much shorter and much worse. They might have, consequently, amongst the Government nominees in the Direction, two or three strong Conservatives, and two or three strong Whigs, Members of the House of Commons, and placed there, not on ac-Count of their fitness, but on account of their politics. They would carry into the Court the animosities that divided them in the House of Commons; and, what was infinitely worse, they would carry into the House of Commons the divisions that separated them in the Court, and angry dis- 257 cussions on Indian questions in the House of Commons would arise from political Directors being placed there. It might be said that the same objection would equally apply to the elected portion of the Directors. He admitted it, and he thought the Government would act most wisely if they excluded both the elected and the nominated Directors from Parliament, for he believed as much mischief would be done by allowing the Directors who were elected by the proprietors to be Members of Parliament, as by suffering those nominated by the Government to hold seats in the House of Commons. Men acquired a sort of factitious importance by becoming Members of Parliament, and to attain such a fancied pre-eminence they would, if Directors, not scruple to use their patronage in order to obtain their seats, and, once having obtained them, use it to keep themselves in them. The lawyers and other persons of note in the places those Directors represented, would naturally obtain an influence over such Members, and the probability was that that patronage which in justice ought to be bestowed for public purposes, would, in many instances, be applied to promote the private views of the Directors, to the great detriment and disadvantage of the general interests of India. He knew nothing more unseemly than that which might arise under the working of the new system which was to be established—when an Indian Minister might make his statement on the part of Government, and might be replied to by a Director on the other side of the House who entertained different opinions. Such a system would do more than any other system that could be conceived to humiliate the Government in the eyes of the people of India; and he did therefore most earnestly entreat Her Majesty's Government to reconsider that provision of the Bill before the House of Commons, and to see whether they would not forego any advantage they might derive from having the power to place Members of the House of Commons who had been ten years in India upon the Direction, and whether they would not, on the other hand, deprive the Directors hereafter to be elected by the proprietors of the power of becoming Members of the House of Commons. The noble Earl concluded by moving for Returns relating to the Court of Directors of the East India Company; and to the Army of the Company.

§ EARL GRANVILLE

said, although it was inconvenient to discuss a Bill which 258 had not yet come before their Lordships, yet he must say, as an individual Member of Her Majesty's Government, that, with regard to this question, considering the spirit which the noble Earl had shown in treating of it, and also bearing in mind the degree of knowledge and useful information which the noble Earl could have afforded respecting it, he rather regretted than otherwise that the noble Earl had not entered more fully into the details of the subject. At all events, as regarded the final decision of their Lordships upon this question, when it should come before them, he hoped that the example of the House of Commons would be followed, and that the second reading of the India Bill would be sanctioned by an equally large majority of their Lordships' House, as that which had been given in its favour by the other House of Parliament. That it would receive the most deliberate and impartial consideration of their Lordships, he was quite assured; for the question was one of far too great importance to admit of anything like party spirit entering for a moment into its discussion. With regard to the observations of the noble Earl respecting the war in Ava, he (Earl Granville) could assure the noble Earl that when that question should be brought before their Lordships in a more regular manner, Her Majesty's Government would not shrink from stating their reasons for the course they had taken respecting that war, and that they would be able to bring before their Lordships sound and good reasons for their policy, and would show that the conduct they had adopted, had not been marked by the least want of statesmanship or generalship. With regard to the clause which the noble Earl had taken from the Bill in the Commons, and had embodied in a separate Bill, and which Her Majesty's Government had rejected, he (Earl Granville) could only say that it had been rejected because the Government did not think that any such emergency as that contemplated by the noble Earl was at all pressing upon the Government of India at this time. With regard to the observations the noble Earl has made, as to the mode of increasing the army in India—by increasing the Company's troops instead of increasing the Queen's troops, by filling up the places of the former by an increase of the latter—the consideration which the noble Earl had adduced upon that point, had not escaped the attention of Her Majesty's Government. No doubt there was much to be 259 said on behalf of the plan which the noble Earl had himself proposed; though he must confess that some of the arguments which the noble Earl had advanced, were quite new to him. While he believed that the experience of war, such as had taken place in India, must have very much improved the army that was sent there, yet he doubted whether it was an improvement to Her Majesty's troops that they should remain for any lengthened period in India during a peace; because, notwithstanding the advantage of congregating together troops in large masses, he felt there were counteracting circumstances in making such marches as the noble Earl had described—circumstances which rarely admitted of regiments being sent home in as efficient a state as when they left this country. But this was a question which must be always dependent upon circumstances. In answer to the authority of the noble Earl upon the subject of the mode of increasing the troops, he (Earl Granville) would offer the opinion which had been given by Lord Dalhousie against the noble Earl's proposition; the real and weighty opinion, however, which had convinced Her Majesty' Government upon this point was that of Lord Hardinge, whose opinion was one to which the Government could not, in justice to themselves, overlook, considering his experience of India, and the professions position which he now held in this country With regard to another question—that of allowing persons nominated or elected to the Court of Directors to have seats in Parliament—he admitted that it was one of considerable difficulty. No doubt there was great delicacy connected with the question. It was, however, hardly necessary for him to repeat what had been so often stated, that the object of the proposed system of nomination on the part of the Crown, was not for the purpose of obtaining patronage or Parliamentary support; but it was to obviate an evil clearly prove before the Committee of the House of Commons—namely, that there were some most eminent persons who were Indians by residence, knowledge, and experience, but who were excluded from the Director, simply because of their aversion to the labour of canvassing, which often obliged persons to be candidates for five or six years after their return, and when of course their knowledge of India became comparatively stale. His (Earl Granville's) own belief was, that better men would be appointed to the Directorship by the pro- 260 posed plan, than by an election and a veto by the Crown. It was obviously of very great importance that the nominated members of the Court of Directors should be put upon the same ground of equality, in every respect, with the elected members. Of course, if they were placed on an inequality with respect to their being able to sit in Parliament, they would occupy an inferior position to that of their brother Directors. There was another question connected with this part of the subject—he meant as to the jealousy that might be entertained with regard to the influence of the Crown over the votes of Members of Parliament who might be Directors. The noble Earl had alluded to that point on a former occasion; but he (Earl Granville) thought, whatever evil there might have been in other days for Government to have it in their power to exercise such influence, there was not much to be dreaded now. It appeared to be mere pedantry to imagine that this influence would be dangerously increased because once or twice in a Session some two or three votes might be gained on some important division in order to propitiate a Government that had the power to nominate to the Board of Directors. It must be assumed, that, if the system of nomination were admitted at all, Her Majesty's Government, whatever party might be in power, would be sure, under the pressure of public opinion, to select and nominate the very fittest for the government of India, wholly irrespective of their political opinions; and if they were so chosen, he thought that, so far from thinking it necessary to guard against any collusion between the Directors and the President of the Board of Control, it was a much more important consideration not to weaken the House of Commons when questions of this kind were discussed—discussed as they had been now, and as he hoped they ever would be so long as the government of India formed a subject for the deliberation of the Parliament of this empire—by the exclusion of those very persons who were most qualified to discuss them. He quite admitted that there were two views of this question to be taken, and he thought that Her Majesty's Government had come to a safe and sound conclusion—namely, that those members of the Court of Directors who were nominated by the Crown should enjoy the same privileges as those who were elected by the proprietors.