Lords Sitting of 15 July 1853

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament.—The Lord Meldrum, after the death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Belfast Municipal Boundaries; Municipal Corporations Act Amendment; Coinage Offences (Colonies).
2a Petty Sessions (Ireland); Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland).
3a Juvenile Mendicancy (No. 2).

EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL.
LORD BROUGHAMhad a question to put to his noble Friend on the woolsack relative to a very important matter. He thought their Lordships had a right to complain—his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack had a right to complain—his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice had a right to complain—and, lastly, he himself had a right to complain—of the treatment which had been given elsewhere to a most important Bill which had been sent down by their Lordships' House to the other House of Parliament. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships

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that at a very early period of the Session—namely, in November last—he had laid upon their Lordships' table a Bill in reference to the law of evidence and procedure, to which they were pleased to give a second reading upon the 10th of March. It was then found that there was no difference of opinion whatever between his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack and himself, or between his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice and himself, relative to one portion of that Bill—a portion of very great importance—he meant the supplement to the Act of 1851, enabling parties to be examined as witnesses in the cause in all the courts, and, on the other hand, compelling them to be examined, as the case might be. And on the great benefits derived from that Act, it was needless for him to enlarge, because testimony had been unanimously and cheerfully borne as to them by all the Judges who had assisted in administering the law under it. But there was one most important omission in that Act—that which regarded the evidence of husband and wife. His noble and learned Friend on the woolsack and he differed on that subject two years ago, when the Act passed; but he (Lord Brougham) then yielded his opinions upon the point at issue, and in consequence the Act was passed with that very important defect. However, his noble and learned Friend, with his wonted candour, admitted that he had since changed his opinions upon the subject, and that be was now clearly in favour of the Bill for supplying the defects in the Act of 1851. Accordingly, that part of the Bill had acquired the entire concurrence of his noble and learned Friend, as well as that of his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice. But finding that they did not agree upon other points, and particularly as to the requirement of deeds and documents, he (Lord Brougham) thought that it would be expedient to divide the Bill into two portions, and to pass forthwith the part upon which no difference of opinion whatever existed, especially considering that as the Act of 1851 had passed, it had become of essential importance for the administration of the law. Accordingly, the alteration of the law with respect to the evidence of husband and wife formed the sole subject of one of these Bills, which had passed through their Lordships' House. The other Bill, which related to procedure, had yet to receive their Lordships' sanction. But when did the other Bill pass
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their Lordships' House? Why, upon the 5th or 6th of June; and at that time he Lord Brougham) was assured that there could ensue no difficulty whatever to prevent its receiving the sanction of the other House; and that, consequently, it would immediately pass into law. Yet, what had happened? Why, the Bill had slept ever mince, although they had now arrived at the 15th of July. And what was the consequence? That the circuits had begun—that all the circuits were being holden, or would be holden during the next six weeks, without the great and necessary benefit of that change in the law. But there was still another consequence to which he begged to call their Lordships' attention. When he said that there was no doubt whatever of its receiving the assent of the other House, he had every reason to form much an expectation, because he found that on the 19th April a Bill received the Royal assent extending to Scotland the provisions of the very Bill which he had the honour of obtaining their Lordships' assent to for England. The provision which he wished to see established in the law of England was at this moment the law of Scotland, and the courts there were acting under it. So that here they had not only he inconvenience of delay—all the inconvenience of administering the Act of 1851, with its own peculiar anomalies—but there was the further anomaly that they had one law for Scotland, and another law for England, and that the Scotch courts were now examining husbands and wives under precisely the same powers and precisely the same qualification and guards that were to be found in the Bill which their Lordships had sent down upon the 6th of June, to be consigned to its long rest for a period if seven weeks in the other House. He really thought that if any one had a right to complain of the remissness shown in the furthering the passing of the Bill, it was his noble and learned Friend opposite (Lord Campbell), and he, therefore, hoped that some explanation would be rendered on the subject. He would only say, in conclusion, that if, when he consented to the division of his Bill, he had had the least suspicion of what was to have occurred, that he would have undoubtedly, no matter at what inconvenience, have pressed the passing of the Bill as a whole. Without, then, attempting to affix the blame in any particular quarter, he must be allowed to express his regret at the delay which had taken place.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he could assure his noble and learned Friend that he could not regret more than he did the delay which had taken place in reference to the, passing of that very useful measure which had passed their Lordships House some seven weeks ago. Of course, as their Lordships were well aware, it was not in the power of any Member of their Lordships' House to control the proceedings of the other House of Parliament—
LORD BROUGHAM: Nor of any Member of the other House.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: Certainly, nor of any individual Member of the other House; but he would state, by way of explanation, in what way the matter stood, and he would show to his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) that no disrespect whatever had been intended towards him. As his noble and learned Friend had truly stated, he (Lord Brougham) introduced a Bill for the improvement of evidence and procedure in November last. Their Lordships, however, were all aware that the Commission appointed to inquire into the state of the common law courts made a very useful report, suggesting matters which led to the first Act for the amendment of the common law, which received the Royal Assent last Session; and the Commissioners were engaged during the last winter, up to an advanced period in the spring, in further investigating the proper course as to evidence and procedure. In that state of things he had expressed to his noble and learned Friend a wish that he should not press his Bill in reference to this same subject until it was seen a little more clearly what the Commissioners were about to suggest. But as it appeared to him (the Lord Chancellor) that the Bill of his noble and learned Friend could be divided into two portions, and that that portion which contained that most valuable, useful, and short amendment of the law, to the effect that the husbands and wives might henceforth give evidence in cases where one or both were concerned, might be separated from the other portion of the Bill. It struck him that there could be no difficulty in passing such a measure, as he understood that both in their Lordships' House, as well as elsewhere, the measure was one which was regarded with an almost unanimous concurrence of opinion. Concurring in that view his noble and learned Friend took the course be suggested, and that portion of the Bill which related to the admissibility
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of the evidence of husband and wife, was formed into one Bill, was assented to by their Lordships, and sent down to the other House, and would, it was expected, have very shortly received the Royal Assent. It appeared, however, that the Common Law Commissioners having been engaged in a very laborious inquiry, had made a very elaborate report on the 30th of April, all the recommendations of which report they proceeded to embody in a Bill; and in that Bill they had incorporated, almost totidem verbis, the enactment of his noble and learned Friend, in regard to the evidence of husband and wife. When the Bill they had thus framed first met his eye—which it did yesterday, when a draught was placed in his hands—he communicated a copy immediately to his noble and learned Friends (Lords Brougham and Campbell) and other law Lords; and he at once came to the conclusion that it would be discreditable to any Government to pretend to introduce honestly such a measure without having a great deal more time to examine into it than they could have had. Perhaps he might here mention to their Lordships, that he was in the habit of receiving anonymous letters, telling him that he was obstructing the progress of law reform. He trusted, however, that he should be able to receive such imputations unmoved, or he should not be worthy the place he had the honour to hold. His intention was to devote himself with all his energy to mastering every part of that Bill, and he felt quite sure that when they had the leisure to do so that he would be aided by his noble and learned Friends with regard to it. As with regard to the former Bill, not alone in Committee of their Lordships' House, but night after night at their own private residences they would go through its clauses one by One in a way perfectly impossible in Parliamentary Committees; and the result of that process, as applied to the former Bill, had been that though it consisted of more than 200 clauses, there was never an Act which had worked so smoothly. This was all he could say at present. However, he could mention that he had seen his learned Friend the Attorney General in reference to the Bill of his noble and learned Friend, and he had promised him to use his best endeavours to pass it through the House of Commons. He believed the Bill had very few defects; and he trusted therefore that before very long it would become the law of the land; and, he would say at the same time, that he very much regretted that his.

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attention had not been earlier awakened to the delay which had occurred.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, the urgency of the Bill was very great, and there was a universal desire in the profession and among the public that the existing defect with regard to the evidence of husband and wife should be remedied, He could bear the testimony of his own experience, that on several occasions the want of the Bill had been most severely felt; truth had been excluded, and there had been a danger of justice being perverted. He hoped this defect might be immediately supplied; and, that being done, he hoped that for the present Session of Parliament, as far as evidence and proceedure were concerned, they should rest satisfied. A great deal had been done already, and he thought that his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack deserved the thanks of the public for having given the subject so much attention. If there were any obloquy as to delay in the work of law reform, founded on the second report of the Common Law Commissioners, he (Lord Campbell) was most ready to take his share of that obloquy, for he thought it inexpedient to push forward immaturely any measure on the subject. In the next Session of Parliament the reform of the ecclesiastical courts would be under consideration, and he hoped that we were now in a most beneficial and praiseworthy state of progress towards amending the whole of the law of England. Let them proceed steadily and perseveringly in this great work, but let them proceed also cautiously; and this in the end would give more satisfaction than the introduction of measures which were immature and crude.
LORD BROUGHAMremarked, that the Bill which extended the Act of 1851 to Scotland, with regard to evidence, had been passed through all its stages without one single word of opposition to any one of its provisions.

LANDS IMPROVEMENT COMPANY (No. 2) BILL.
The DUKE of ARGYLL,in moving the Third Reading of this Bill, said, the main object of it was to enable the company to raise money on debentures, transferable by endorsement, for the improvement of land. Since the discussion which had taken place in respect to it a few nights ago, several important alterations had been made in the Bill, with a view of meeting the objections that were then raised against it. The
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main objection which had been urged by the noble Chairman of Committees on the former occasion was, that one of the provisions of the Bill was at variance with a clause in the General Companies' Clauses Consolidation Act—namely, that which provided that the transfer of interest in the land should be made by deed duly stamped, upon which the consideration given for such transfer should be stated. By an omission in the present Bill, as it was originally framed, it was not provided that such deed should be stamped; but that omission had since been rectified, so that there was no danger whatever of the revenue being defrauded. The machinery provided in the Bill was the same as that which had been provided in the many Enclosure Acts which had passed. The Government were of opinion that it would be of advantage to give every facility possible for the improvement of the land; and with that view he now moved the third reading of the Bill.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that the objections, which were only those of detail, having been removed by the alterations that were made in the Bill, he, of course, did not mean to oppose it further.
After a short conversation, in which Lord ST. LEONARDS, Lord CAMPBELL, the Duke of BUCCLEUCH, and the Marquess of SALISBURY took part,
Bill read 3a, with the Amendments; and passed, and sent to the Commons.

THE INDIAN ARMY.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that as he apprehended that there would be no objection to the production of the papers which, according to notice, it was his intention to move for, and feeling, therefore very unwilling to make any observations on the subject matter to which those papers referred, he should confine himself to one topic only, namely, the proposed increase of the Indian army. He would touch upon that one topic now, because he apprehended that if he were not to express what he felt at the present moment, he could not do so at any other time with advantage, inasmuch as when once the Clause in the Bill now before the House of Commons, for the increase of the European troops in the army of the East India Company, came up to their Lordships, though they might reject it, they could not make any substitution of another for it. However little, therefore, he might hope to succeed in making any impression on

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the Government, he thought it right to state, at the present moment, his objections to the proposed mode of increasing the military force of that country. He would have taken that opportunity of going into several points of detail which had occurred to him since he addressed their Lordships four or five weeks ago, and he would have done that under the impression that any amendments consequent upon any changes of opinion produced in the minds of Her Majesty's Government, could be more conveniently made in the House of Commons than in that House at a later period of the Session; but he abstained from that course in the confident expectation that when the Bill did come to their Lordships' House, Her Majesty's Government would be disposed to take into their favourable consideration any reasonable objections that might be urged by him to those matters of detail to which it was his intention to direct their Lordships' attention, his whole object being to make the Bill as perfect as he could by the suggestions it might be in his power to offer. In the course of the past week he had introduced a Bill into their Lordships' House which consisted of that clause in the Government Bill now before the House of Commons, which had reference to the increase of the Company's European troops, though he admitted that he was indisposed to receive that clause. When he proposed to introduce that Bill, he said he did not approve of that mode of increasing the military force, but he did not think that anything he could urge would induce Parliament to adopt a different mode, and therefore he acquiesced in that measure, and thought it would be well to save time, and place at once at the disposal of the Government the additional force that would be provided by that Bill. The events that had come to their knowledge within the last few days, had not induced him to consider it less important to increase the military force of the country, and he was ready to increase that force in any manner, so urgent did he conceive the necessity for doing so. Yesterday a circumstance had come to their knowledge, on the arrival of the mail from India, which might make, on the minds of many of their Lordships, an impression that more force was now required in India than probably they might have thought to have been required there at an earlier period of the year. The change of opinion that might on that point have taken place in their Lordships' minds
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had not been produced upon his, because their Lordships would recollect that from the commencement of the war in Ava he had deprecated it, and had stated his opinion of its great importance, and the great embarrassment it would produce. He had never entertained the slightest expectation that the Burmese Government would consent to the cession of the province which had been appropriated by the Indian Government, and, therefore, there was no disappointment whatever to him in the news that had been just received. He now only took the same view of their position in Ava that he had always taken. He regretted to say that in the commencement of that war, in its conception, and in its conduct, he could not anywhere perceive the impress of the mind of a statesman, or of a general. They had advanced beyond the point which was the best possible one to occupy, and had taken as their frontier the very worst they could by any possibility have taken. They had placed themselves in a position in which they could neither stand firm with safety, nor advance with advantage. It was a peculiarity in this war that the greater the success the greater the embarrassment; and if they were to advance to Ava, and drive from Ava the king of that country, their difficulty would only be greater than it was at present. At that moment no reasonable man could look forward to the termination of that war with the same degree of confidence that he might have entertained at its commencement. That was a serious state of things, and he was certainly most deeply impressed with the conviction, that on account of their position there, irrespective of the effect which the events that were taking place in the East of Europe must have on their position everywhere, and especially in India, an increased military force was absolutely required for their security in that country. But he must say, he could not approve of the manner in which that increase was proposed to be made. In the first place, he must state with great regret that he could not but see in this proposal some indication of an apparent intention, not of decreasing the European military force in India, but of substituting for Her Majesty's troops an equal number of the Company's European troops. He would deprecate that change, as most injurious to Her Majesty's service, and to the interests of India and of England. The advantage to Her Majesty's troops of the

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experience they acquired in India, was infinite, even when they were not engaged in actual hostilities. The very marching through the country was in itself instructive; and there being, at the large stations, cavalry, infantry, and artillery, in considerable numbers, there was not one of those stations in which Her Majesty's troops might not learn, and ought not to learn, as much as they could now learn in the camp at Chobham, by the continual movement of large masses of men, and its display of the mode in which the operations of war are carried on. He recollected well that the Duke of Wellington once told him that the British troops in India came nearer to his idea of what the Roman legions must have been, than any troops he had ever seen. They should think that it was a very great advantage to this country to have the opportunity of sending their regiments to India, which, when brought to England in succession, formed the nucleus of an army, being practically acquainted, in all their details, with the operations of war. There was another advantage in using Her Majesty's troops instead of the forces of the East India Company, namely, that Her Majesty's troops were constantly removed, whereas the troops of the latter were not; and it should be a constant principle of their policy, in the treatment of Indian affairs, to make all persons sent from hence to that country, look homeward, and have England in view rather than India—to look forward to their promotion in Her Majesty's service as the end of their exertion, rather than in the local service. But an Indian force was in the nature of a colonial force, and though individuals might come home, a regiment never came home. With a view, therefore, to keep up the connexion between this country and India, it was necessary that a large force belonging to Her Majesty's troops should be employed there. He was not speaking with the slightest disrespect of the troops of the Indian Government. He had seen them himself, and he must say, that better disposed men there could not be—there could not be men by whom officers could more desire to be followed into action; but there were circumstances connected with the formation of these regiments which must make them inferior to Her Majesty's regiments, and which caused new regiments to be considerably inferior for a long time after they were formed. They must be considerably inferior to Her Majesty's on this account—that the Com-
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pany's European regiments had to furnish non-commissioned officers, not only to their own regiments, but to Native regiments, and to furnish persons to fill various civil and military offices. It was therefore impossible, without a miracle, that the non-commissioned officers could be equal, on all occasions, to the non-commissioned officers in Her Majesty's regiments, who had only their own regiments to provide for; and they must be all aware how much the efficiency and discipline of a regiment depended upon the efficiency of the non-commissioned officers. They should also consider in what manner new regiments were officered. The appointments were made in the Company's regiments according to seniority of service, and all those regiments must be officered by the senior officers of each grade in the service. There were only two European regiments on the Bengal establishment, and seventy-six Native regiments, and each of those European regiments would take forty-eight officers, and as the officers would all be drawn from different regiments, the new regiments must be officered by men, no two of whom had ever probably seen each other before, and all of whom might be ignorant of the European troops and service, and acquainted only with the Sepoys. They must, moreover, draw their non-commissioned officers from the European regiments, already weakened by detaching non-commissioned officers to the Native regiments. Under these circumstances it was impossible that these regiments could be so effective for a length of time as any of the regiments now in Her Majesty's service. After the lapse of years, no doubt, they might be possessed of the same efficiency as the European regiments, but for a number of years they must be comparatively inefficient. He recollected that when he was at the Board of Control, about twenty-five years ago, he looked into the statistics of Her Majesty's regiments and of the Company's regiments, and he found at that time that the Company's regiments were renewed once in eight years, and Her Majesty's regiments wore renewed once in twelve years—a most decided proof that there must be some internal defect in the organisation of the Company's regiments, which led to a greater amount of casualties and invaliding than prevailed in Her Majesty's service. There was a circumstance that had come under his observation which might have led to that unfortunate result. He was particularly struck on seeing one

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of those regiments now at Ava, and one of the most distinguished there—the 1st European—by the extreme youth of the soldiers, and questioned an officer on the subject; and he was assured by him that the men sent out for the Company's service were so young that they were more liable than other men to take the malaria, which nearly destroyed them, and they hardly ever attained European strength, or became what European soldiers ought to be, in consequence of being exposed to the climate at such early years. He (the Earl of Ellen-borough) wrote home in most earnest terms, suggesting that the custom should be abandoned—that the recruits should be kept in this country for two or three years more, and that they should only be sent out when they were capable of performing the service that was required of them, and when they would be less exposed to the necessary consequences of the climate. Whether anything had been done in consequence of his representations he did not know; but certainly, nothing was clone while he was in India. On these grounds he objected to the mode of the increase proposed; but he could hardly venture, unacquainted as he was with the details of Her Majesty's service, to propose any other mode of increasing that force. It would be objectionable to take one soldier from this country under present circumstances, and it was absolutely necessary that the army in India should be increased. He knew no other mode in which it could be done, except that which was usually adopted, namely, by forming second battalions. Within a short time sixteen or eighteen regiments had returned from India, and every one of those regiments, having distinguished themselves, fairly deserved any marks of favour that could be shown to them. Every one of them had at their disposal non-commissioned officers acquainted with the country; who might be sent out as non-commissioned officers to the second battalions. There must be at Her Majesty's disposal an ample number of officers acquainted with the country, who might also be placed in those second battalions; and the advantage to the troops of having men acquainted with the climate and habits of the country as officers and non-commissioned officers, it was impossible to overestimate. He knew to what extent the health of a regiment, when it first arrived in India, was affected by the circumstance of there being in it any one who knew anything about the climate. There was but one other point to which he
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must entreat their Lordships' attention for one moment, though it did not refer, undoubtedly, to any of the returns which he desired to have placed upon the table by the Motion he intended to make. There was a provision in the India Bill now before the House of Commons, to which he earnestly desired to call the attention of their Lordships, because he thought it went to destroy the efficiency of the system Government proposed to adopt. He alluded to the provision by which the Directors to be appointed by the Crown, were permitted to sit in Parliament. He considered that provision to be in the last degree pernicious; especially when taken in conjunction with an alteration very recently made in a provision of the Bill, whereby any person who had been in India for ten years, whether he was in the service of the Government or not, might be appointed a Director. That would be most pernicious in its operation, because what all of them must desire was to separate the Government of India in England from the influence of the politics of the day, and to keep it as much as possible distinct from any connexion with them. The result of this provision would be, that a young man, on returning from India, would, by spending a little money, get a seat in the House of Commons; and being in the House of Commons, and eligible to fill the office, would naturally recommend himself to the Government, whatever that Government might be, and would be placed in the Direction instead of a better man. By this means there would not only be placed in the Direction the nominees of the Government, who were placed there not on account of their fitness for office, but those persons would introduce into the Court a political bias, which must be most incurious to the transactions of Indian business. The average life of man might be increasing and improving, but the average life of Government was undoubtedly becoming much shorter and much worse. They might have, consequently, amongst the Government nominees in the Direction, two or three strong Conservatives, and two or three strong Whigs, Members of the House of Commons, and placed there, not on ac-Count of their fitness, but on account of their politics. They would carry into the Court the animosities that divided them in the House of Commons; and, what was infinitely worse, they would carry into the House of Commons the divisions that separated them in the Court, and angry dis-

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cussions on Indian questions in the House of Commons would arise from political Directors being placed there. It might be said that the same objection would equally apply to the elected portion of the Directors. He admitted it, and he thought the Government would act most wisely if they excluded both the elected and the nominated Directors from Parliament, for he believed as much mischief would be done by allowing the Directors who were elected by the proprietors to be Members of Parliament, as by suffering those nominated by the Government to hold seats in the House of Commons. Men acquired a sort of factitious importance by becoming Members of Parliament, and to attain such a fancied pre-eminence they would, if Directors, not scruple to use their patronage in order to obtain their seats, and, once having obtained them, use it to keep themselves in them. The lawyers and other persons of note in the places those Directors represented, would naturally obtain an influence over such Members, and the probability was that that patronage which in justice ought to be bestowed for public purposes, would, in many instances, be applied to promote the private views of the Directors, to the great detriment and disadvantage of the general interests of India. He knew nothing more unseemly than that which might arise under the working of the new system which was to be established—when an Indian Minister might make his statement on the part of Government, and might be replied to by a Director on the other side of the House who entertained different opinions. Such a system would do more than any other system that could be conceived to humiliate the Government in the eyes of the people of India; and he did therefore most earnestly entreat Her Majesty's Government to reconsider that provision of the Bill before the House of Commons, and to see whether they would not forego any advantage they might derive from having the power to place Members of the House of Commons who had been ten years in India upon the Direction, and whether they would not, on the other hand, deprive the Directors hereafter to be elected by the proprietors of the power of becoming Members of the House of Commons. The noble Earl concluded by moving for Returns relating to the Court of Directors of the East India Company; and to the Army of the Company.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, although it was inconvenient to discuss a Bill which
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had not yet come before their Lordships, yet he must say, as an individual Member of Her Majesty's Government, that, with regard to this question, considering the spirit which the noble Earl had shown in treating of it, and also bearing in mind the degree of knowledge and useful information which the noble Earl could have afforded respecting it, he rather regretted than otherwise that the noble Earl had not entered more fully into the details of the subject. At all events, as regarded the final decision of their Lordships upon this question, when it should come before them, he hoped that the example of the House of Commons would be followed, and that the second reading of the India Bill would be sanctioned by an equally large majority of their Lordships' House, as that which had been given in its favour by the other House of Parliament. That it would receive the most deliberate and impartial consideration of their Lordships, he was quite assured; for the question was one of far too great importance to admit of anything like party spirit entering for a moment into its discussion. With regard to the observations of the noble Earl respecting the war in Ava, he (Earl Granville) could assure the noble Earl that when that question should be brought before their Lordships in a more regular manner, Her Majesty's Government would not shrink from stating their reasons for the course they had taken respecting that war, and that they would be able to bring before their Lordships sound and good reasons for their policy, and would show that the conduct they had adopted, had not been marked by the least want of statesmanship or generalship. With regard to the clause which the noble Earl had taken from the Bill in the Commons, and had embodied in a separate Bill, and which Her Majesty's Government had rejected, he (Earl Granville) could only say that it had been rejected because the Government did not think that any such emergency as that contemplated by the noble Earl was at all pressing upon the Government of India at this time. With regard to the observations the noble Earl has made, as to the mode of increasing the army in India—by increasing the Company's troops instead of increasing the Queen's troops, by filling up the places of the former by an increase of the latter—the consideration which the noble Earl had adduced upon that point, had not escaped the attention of Her Majesty's Government. No doubt there was much to be

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said on behalf of the plan which the noble Earl had himself proposed; though he must confess that some of the arguments which the noble Earl had advanced, were quite new to him. While he believed that the experience of war, such as had taken place in India, must have very much improved the army that was sent there, yet he doubted whether it was an improvement to Her Majesty's troops that they should remain for any lengthened period in India during a peace; because, notwithstanding the advantage of congregating together troops in large masses, he felt there were counteracting circumstances in making such marches as the noble Earl had described—circumstances which rarely admitted of regiments being sent home in as efficient a state as when they left this country. But this was a question which must be always dependent upon circumstances. In answer to the authority of the noble Earl upon the subject of the mode of increasing the troops, he (Earl Granville) would offer the opinion which had been given by Lord Dalhousie against the noble Earl's proposition; the real and weighty opinion, however, which had convinced Her Majesty' Government upon this point was that of Lord Hardinge, whose opinion was one to which the Government could not, in justice to themselves, overlook, considering his experience of India, and the professions position which he now held in this country With regard to another question—that of allowing persons nominated or elected to the Court of Directors to have seats in Parliament—he admitted that it was one of considerable difficulty. No doubt there was great delicacy connected with the question. It was, however, hardly necessary for him to repeat what had been so often stated, that the object of the proposed system of nomination on the part of the Crown, was not for the purpose of obtaining patronage or Parliamentary support; but it was to obviate an evil clearly prove before the Committee of the House of Commons—namely, that there were some most eminent persons who were Indians by residence, knowledge, and experience, but who were excluded from the Director, simply because of their aversion to the labour of canvassing, which often obliged persons to be candidates for five or six years after their return, and when of course their knowledge of India became comparatively stale. His (Earl Granville's) own belief was, that better men would be appointed to the Directorship by the pro-
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posed plan, than by an election and a veto by the Crown. It was obviously of very great importance that the nominated members of the Court of Directors should be put upon the same ground of equality, in every respect, with the elected members. Of course, if they were placed on an inequality with respect to their being able to sit in Parliament, they would occupy an inferior position to that of their brother Directors. There was another question connected with this part of the subject—he meant as to the jealousy that might be entertained with regard to the influence of the Crown over the votes of Members of Parliament who might be Directors. The noble Earl had alluded to that point on a former occasion; but he (Earl Granville) thought, whatever evil there might have been in other days for Government to have it in their power to exercise such influence, there was not much to be dreaded now. It appeared to be mere pedantry to imagine that this influence would be dangerously increased because once or twice in a Session some two or three votes might be gained on some important division in order to propitiate a Government that had the power to nominate to the Board of Directors. It must be assumed, that, if the system of nomination were admitted at all, Her Majesty's Government, whatever party might be in power, would be sure, under the pressure of public opinion, to select and nominate the very fittest for the government of India, wholly irrespective of their political opinions; and if they were so chosen, he thought that, so far from thinking it necessary to guard against any collusion between the Directors and the President of the Board of Control, it was a much more important consideration not to weaken the House of Commons when questions of this kind were discussed—discussed as they had been now, and as he hoped they ever would be so long as the government of India formed a subject for the deliberation of the Parliament of this empire—by the exclusion of those very persons who were most qualified to discuss them. He quite admitted that there were two views of this question to be taken, and he thought that Her Majesty's Government had come to a safe and sound conclusion—namely, that those members of the Court of Directors who were nominated by the Crown should enjoy the same privileges as those who were elected by the proprietors.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHwish-

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ed just to add, that one of his objections to the proposed mode of increasing the troops in India, arose from the patronage that would be thus created. Their Lordships could hardly be aware that, in consequence of the creation of eight new regiments in India, there would in this one year be to be distributed among the Court of Directors no less than 384 cadetships, which, with vacancies in other regiments, would amount to 500 cadetships; being at the rate of 25 cadetships for every Director. Considering that those gentlemen had not a very long time to live, and considering the manner in which they usually bestowed their patronage, he thought that to give them 13 cadetships each to be disposed of more than they ever had before, and free from the restrictions imposed by this Bill, was an act of great imprudence, and that it had the appearance of an enormous job. He was not surprised that this should be the only part of the measure which had not oozed out to the public, or at the favour with which it was regarded in certain quarters.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

POLLING AT ELECTIONS AMENDMENT BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
The EARL of SHAFTESBURY,in moving that this Bill be now read the Second Time, said, the Bill, though large in its professed effects, was so very simple that it required no explanation beyond what was given when it was first introduced. Its principles might be considered to be—first, that the expenses of an election, though defrayed by the candidate, were to be conducted by a public and responsible officer; and, secondly, that the votes of the constituency were no longer to be taken vivâ voce, and in polling booths, but written on slips of paper, and collected from house to house by legal and authorised persons. The advantages of this system would be, as he stated before, that it would take away all pretext for bribery and corruption under the show of travelling expenses, necessary refreshments, and compensation for loss of time; it would simplify the process of elections, greatly abridge expense, and prevent riots, confusion, and in many respects intimidation; it would enable many more person to vote, especially the weak and timid, who shrank with terror from the turmoil and excite-
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ment of a contested election. If their Lordships admitted these results, and thought them desirable, they had only to look at the machinery whereby the Act was to be carried into operation. Now the Bill, if examined in Committee, would be found, he thought, to have whatever was required. He knew that under the poor-law system this mode of collecting votes had, in some instances, proved a failure; but the causes were obvious; no great interest prevailed on the election of poor-law guardians. No one was disposed to incur any expense. The agents, therefore, were underpaid, very little watched, and hardly any accounts were demanded of them; but by this Bill they secured an agency far better paid—persons duly appointed to watch both the collection and examination of papers, and heavy penalties, both personal and pecuniary, for any misconduct. He wished to propose it for a second reading, and should be glad to pass it through Committee, because he felt assured of its good results.
The EARL of ABERDEENassured his noble Friend that it was not from any indifference to the object which he had in view, or from any hostility to the measure itself, that he opposed the second reading of the Bill. But, as his noble Friend did not propose to carry the measure further in the course of the present Session, he (the Earl of Aberdeen) was unwilling to commit the House or Her Majesty's Government to it at this stage, more especially as his noble Friend knew that Her Majesty's Government were pledged to bring forward a measure of Parliamentary reform early in the next Session of Parliament, and that the subject of the present Bill must come under consideration in connexion with any plan of Parliamentary reform that might be introduced. In consequence of this representation in the other House of Parliament, several partial measures of Parliamentary reform had been suspended with a view to that course which Her Majesty's Government were prepared to take. He could assure his noble Friend that the subject of the Bill now on the table would be brought forward and fully considered; and, as his noble Friend would have had the advantage of having his own views on the subject circulated throughout the country, he thought his noble Friend had obtained all the advantage he could propose to himself in bringing it forward. He would repeat his assurance to his noble Friend, that not only would the subject

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meet with due consideration from the Government, but, as he was at present advised, with the most favourable consideration. He had, therefore, to ask his noble Friend not to press the measure further a this time, as he could venture to assure him that by not doing so he would forward the object he had in view.
The EARL of HARDWICKEsaid, that must be confessed that our present system had failed to secure purity of election in boroughs. Now he believed that the, adoption of the system proposed by this Bill—the same as that now followed in the election of boards of guardians—would no only effect a great improvement in this respect, but that it would also induce many, men of great repectability and stake in the country to vote who now abstained from doing so; and that it would thus tend to give us a much more real representation of the opinion of the country than we had at present.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEbelieved, that of all the modes proposed for securing real representation of the opinions of the constituencies, that contained in the present. Bill was most likely to be successful. He was glad to hear that it was to be can fully considered by Her Majesty's Government, in connexion with the whole question of the representation of the people; for he thought it was infinitely preferable that legislation on such subjects as this should take place on the responsibility of Government, than at the instance of private Members of the Legislature. He hoped that when the Government next year brought forward their plan of representative reform they would be able to devise some plat which, if it did not extinguish bribery at intimidation, would at least reduce the to a minimum, and give us a reasonable chance of obtaining a true expression the feelings of the constituencies.
EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he could not refrain from adding his humble tribute gratitude to the noble Earl for bringing the subject before the House. He thought that any scheme of reform of the representation in which extensive alterations for the purpose of improving the manner of taking the votes, did not form a part would prove utterly futile for preventing those corrupt practices and disgraceful scenes which were the blots and by-words, of our earlier system. Though he was not prepared to say that this measure to all its details was the best that could he devised, yet he must own that he was
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not prepared to suggest any plan which, upon the whole, seemed likely to work better. The mode of election for Members of Parliament proposed by this Bill had been found eminently successful when applied to the election of boards of guardians in England; and, though it was said not to have worked equally well in Ireland, he did not see why it should not by proper arrangements be made to do so, He trusted, therefore, that some measure of the kind would form part of the Reform Bill about to be brought forward next year.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEthought that neither the noble Earl who had introduced the Bill, nor other noble Lords who had followed him, had any right to complain of the absence of encouragement to this measure on the part of Her Majesty's Government. On the contrary, no other course could have been taken, unless Her Majesty's Government had been prepared to enter at once in a detached form upon this most important branch—in his mind perhaps the most important—of what was called Parliamentary reform, and unless their Lordships had been prepared to decide how votes should be taken, without considering if any alterations, and what alterations, should be made in the quality and numbers of those on behalf of whom they were legislating, and for the appearance, or rather non-appearance, of whom at the hustings they were endeavouring to make sufficient provision. Entirely agreeing with his noble Friend near him (the Earl of Aberdeen) that they could not take the subject into their consideration at the present time, he was quite prepared to say that it had derived additional importance and additional advantage from the present discussion having elicited opinions from various quarters of the greatest weight, all concurring in the importance of considering, if not this Session, at least at some future period, some measure for absolutely putting an end to what he would call corrupt intimidation. Place the power in what class they pleased, place it with the few or with the many, unless they gave encouragement and protection to those to whom they gave a vote, they would not accomplish the object in view. They could not have a stronger proof of this than when they heard his noble Friends on the cross benches (Earl Fortescue and Lord Wharncliffe), both of whom had had the advantage and honour of being returned to the other House of Parliament by large bodies of the consti-

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tuency, and of obtaining what might be called the greatest constitutional triumphs that this country could afford, nevertheless compelled to admit, in the very moment of triumph, that in the course of those transactions they had seen prevailing among the voters an amount of intimidation and interference calculated to prevent a great portion even of that very constituency whom they represented from duly recording their votes, and thereby, as far as the were excluded, annulling the effect of the free election. No stronger testimony could be given; the very circumstance of its having been so stated from such high authority, even if the noble Earl opposite had not given his attention to the subject, was sufficient to call to it the attention of Parliament, if not of the whole country at large.
EARL GREYquite concurred with the noble Marquess, that the noble Earl who had introduced this Bill had no reason to be dissatisfied with the reception which it had met with. On the contrary, he thought the manner in which the Bill had been received ought to be highly gratifying to his noble Friend. He also concurred with the noble Marquess in thinking that it would not be expedient for the Government and the House at once to pledge themselves to the principle of this Bill. His own impression however, was very strongly in favour of the measure. He believed that in balancing the advantages and disadvantage which would arise from the measure, the advantages greatly preponderated; but he could not, however, shut his eyes to the fact that it would be attended with very serious drawbacks and dangers, which would require to be carefully guarded against. For instance, the adoption of this system of election in a small constituency would be open to this objection that it would be in the power of one or two persons to sell the borough with tho most perfect certainty to the highest bidder simply by buying up the majority of the voting papers signed in blank. That was a danger which might very well exist under such a system of voting, unless carefully guarded against; and he mentioned it to show how inconvenient it would bet o pledge the House to the principle of the Bill without having the details fully before them. With reference to the elections of boards of guardians, so far as his experience went, they had been conducted generally in a most satisfactory manner He was himself a ratepayer of one of the metropolitan parishes, in which a most se-
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vere contest had taken place, and he believed it had been conducted in a manner highly creditable to all parties. Certainly, in the metropolitan parishes the polling papers were distributed and collected by the police; and the noble Earl proposed also to have the polling papers, under his new system, distributed and collected in a most efficient manner. Undoubtedly, he thought there was nothing in poor-law experience which ought to discourage the introduction of this system; on the contrary, he believed it to be a fact that a much larger number of persons entitled to vote had voted at elections in metropolitan unions, than had voted at the elections for Members of Parliament. It was well known that large numbers of the constituents were deterred from coming forward at elections for Members of Parliament by the tumult and confusion which prevailed at the poll, and to which they were not inclined to expose themselves; and the worst of it was, that these were precisely the persons whom it was for the public interest to induce to vote. They were generally sensible, quiet people, not violently excited on either side, whose opinion as to the persons to be chosen it was most desirable to obtain. He quite agreed that some system of the sort ought to be adopted hereafter; but it was not desirable that the House should pledge itself to the Bill until they had learnt how it was to be carried into effect. He hoped, however, if the Bill were brought in again, with a view of its ultimately passing into a law, that it would be extended to counties, where, in his opinion, it was much more needed than in boroughs. In no county election with which he had ever been acquainted, had there been a return which would not have been declared void, and the Members unseated, if the law had been rigidly enforced, because it was utterly impossible that voters scattered about as they were in county constituencies could be brought up to vote without having their actual expenses provided. At the elections in which he had been concerned, there had never been anything like real substantial corruption, but there had been a general agreement between the candidates that both parties should pay at the same rate for travelling expenses, so that there should be no inducement to vote for one side more than another on that score. He did not think there was any real corruption in that arrangement; but still it was contrary to the clear letter of the law, and, if it were proved in evidence, an Election Committee could not

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help unseating a candidate who had been concerned in such a practice. On that account, therefore, he thought it highly desirable that some means should be devised for taking votes in the counties in this manner, relieving the voter from expense, and enabling him to exercise his franchise without any interruption to his business. He thought the thanks of the House were due to the noble Earl for having brought this subject before their Lordships, and he hoped at some future period to see the principle of his Bill carried into effect.
The EARL of DONOUGHMOREhoped, if the Government intended to adopt the principle of this Bill at some future time, they would take care that it was not extended to Ireland. It appeared to be well suited to remedy the great evils of English elections, which were bribery and corruption; but the great evils of Irish elections were violence and intimidation, and these it would not touch at all. He trusted, however, if the Government intended to include Ireland in any such system as this, they would take care to read the report of the sub-inspector of police with respect to the election of guardians for the union of Castle Coote, in August last. Certainly, helmets ought to be provided for the collectors of the votes to prevent their heads being broken, and a sufficient force of military and police to protect their lives, otherwise they might rely on it that far more fearful scenes would be witnessed at Irish elections than had ever yet been enacted.
After a few words from Lord WALDEGRAVE, which were inaudible,
LORD REDESDALEpointed out several defects in the machinery of the Bill which would greatly stand in the way of its efficient working. For instance, it ought to be maturely considered whether or not the voter should be required to deliver the vote himself. If he were not, that might lead to the withholding of the vote altogether, if the man's wife or the person intrusted to deliver the paper could be bribed; and, on the other hand, if he were required to deliver it himself, and if he had any employment, he would be obliged to remain at home all day from nine to four, or until the collectors called upon him for that purpose. Again, there was no proper provision made for checking the delivery of the papers, and in case of any violence on the part of the mob, such as happened at the last election at Hereford, the election must be void altogether. These were points which must be considered with great care
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before any measure on the subject could pass.
The EARL of SHAFTESBURYsaid, that after what had fallen from Her Majesty's Government, it would be useless for him to attempt to push this Bill further at the present time. He wished to observe, however, that he had expressed no dissatisfaction at the manner in which the Bill had been received; on the contrary, he was extremely grateful to their Lordships and to the Government for the kind reception they had given to it. He hoped the noble Earl would have no objection to the circulation of the Bill during the recess, in order that it might be considered in the country. He had no doubt many improvements might be introduced into the details of it, and a certain amount of experience of its working would be required before its machinery could be perfected; but he believed when carried out it would go further than almost anything else to put an end to the present system of bribery and corruption. He had no objection to withdraw the Bill.
Order for Second Reading discharged.

PETTY SESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL—SUM- MARY JURISDICTION (IRELAND) BILL.
On the Motion for the Second Reading of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Bill.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, that these Bills, which were Bills to continue existing enactments, were so intimately connected in their subject and scope that any remarks he might apply to the one applied equally to the other. With regard to the first, it had long been found to work satisfactorily, and the only alteration which he proposed to introduce into it was the extension of the jurisdiction of a single magistrate. The only other important point of alteration in the first Bill which he proposed to make, was to extend the right of appeal. He thought it was highly desirable that it should be extended to cases which were dismissed. The second Bill which he proposed to re-enact was the Summary Jurisdiction Bill. This Bill had been found to work most usefully and conveniently for the magistrates of Ireland. The main principle it contained was, that of giving to the magistrates the power of dealing summarily with larceny, and preventing thereby the expense of drawing an indictment in petty cases in which the value of the theft was less than the costs would amount to. A power of this kind was most advisable. The other important feature of the Bill enabled magistrates to dispose summarily of rent cases, and of

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ejecting defaulters without any other process. This he regarded, indeed, as the most important point in the Bill, for he believed that it would prove of incalculable advantage in stimulating the landlords to provide better habitations for the labouring classes in Ireland. The noble Marquess concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill.
LORD MONTEAGLEexpressed his approval of the course pursued by the noble Marquess in moving the Bills, in the principles of which he entirely concurred. He was, however, slightly afraid of the great powers which would be given by the first Bill to one magistrate. Petty Sessions, in the usual acceptation of the term, meant more than one magistrate; but by the Bill a single magistrate would be placed in possession of the most extensive powers. It was true that there were some parts of Ireland in which there was a difficulty in procuring the attendance of more than one magistrate; but for these, the exceptions, he contended that it would be better to give the Lord Chancellor of Ireland the power of authorising the conduct of the petty sessions by one magistrate, rather than extend the principle to the whole of Ireland. The Summary Jurisdiction Bill he considered a most important measure, and he highly approved of the power given by it to magistrates to take possession of smaller tenements without the ordinary process of ejectment. Singular as it might seem, he believed that that power would prove most advantageous to the small tenantry and to the labouring population of Ireland by improving their dwellings. The law at present was most absurd and anomalous when compared with that of England. There was one set of laws for the market towns of Ireland, and another for the rest of the country. The noble Marquess had the credit of the proposition for consolidating, and assimilating these laws, and he should support him in his attempt, though he might feel called upon to propose several amendments when the Bills should be in Committee.
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEagreed with the objects and the terms of both Bills, and believed them worthy of the support of their Lordships. For the benefit of the justices in remote parts of the country it was highly desirable that the law should be simplified and consolidated. These Bills introduced most important alterations in the law. The Petty Sessions Bill provided that cases which had hereto-
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fore been tried before a bench of magistrates, might in future be decided by a single magistrate. The Summary Jurisdiction Bill contained an important provision, extending the summary jurisdiction of magistrates to the collection of the rents of small holdings. With regard to the first, he was very much inclined to think that it would be necessary to provide some additional safeguards to prevent its misuse; and with regard to the 15th clause of the Summary Jurisdiction Bill, he was most anxious that it should be submitted to the Irish Government, for the purpose of ascertaining the exact working of the law in the different parts of Ireland. Nothing could be more desirable than the object which his noble Friend had in view. Anything which would tend to improve the dwellings of the lower orders in Ireland, was most deserving of attention. He entirely concurred in the views of his noble Friend, but begged that he would postpone the Committee on both Bills until Thursday next, in order that they might be considered by the law advisers of the Crown in Ireland.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE having acquiesced,
Bills read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Friday next.
House adjourned to Monday next.