Lords Sitting of 1 July 1853

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—la Parish Vestries (No. 2).
2a Soap Duties; Malicious Injuries (Ireland); Public Works Loan.

INDIA —PETITION.
The EARL of ALBEMARLE,in rising to present a petition from the Mayor, Town Councillors, Merchants, and other Inhabitants of the Borough of Birmingham, praying that the House, in any measures for the future government of India, would abolish the existing system of a double government, and establish a home administration appointed by the Crown, and directly responsible to the Imperial Parliament, said, he would trouble their Lordships for a very few moments. They had all of them duties of a different nature that evening, which would necessarily render their proceedings in that House as short as possible, and therefore he should confine his observations to one point of the statement contained in the petition, and that was, the condition of the Indian population subject to the rule of the Company. The petition declared that the condition of the people was one of poverty and depression, and he thought it necessary to make these few remarks on the subject, in order that he might neutralise the rosy tints which had been introduced into the sketches of Indian life by certain colourists of Leadenhall-street and Cannon-row. In the other House of Parliament an hon. Baronet had the other evening read an extract from an article in the Calcutta Review, which appeared evi-
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dently intended to meet the statements contained in an extract which he (the Earl of Albemarle) had on a former occasion quoted to a Committee of their Lordships, respecting the condition of the Bengal peasantry. The extract stated—
"What strikes the eye most in any village or set of villages in a Bengal district is the exuberant fertility of the soil, the sluggish plenty surrounding the cultivator's abode, the rich foliage, the fruit and timber trees, and the palpable evidence against anything like penury. Did any man ever go through a Bengalee village and find himself assailed by the cry of want or famine? Was he ever told that the ryot and his family did not know where to turn for a meal?"
Now, that bore the appearance to him of having been used to meet the quotation he (the Earl of Albemarle) had made from the same periodical, in which the Bengal peasant was described as being plunged in a condition of squalid misery—in which his wretchedness was pointed out—in which it was stated that he toiled from morn to night—that, despite of this, he was a haggard, poverty-stricken, wretched creature— and that he might be seen fasting for days and nights from want of food. It was clear, therefore, that one of these two statements could not be true. He thought, however, he could show their Lordships that the quotation he (the Earl of Albemarle) made was correct. He fancied he had some reason for thinking that the article quoted by the hon. Baronet in another place had been written by a young man, a covenanted servant of the Company, after a very short residence in India, and with an imperfect knowledge of the people and of the country; whereas it appeared in evidence before the Committee of their Lordships' House that the writer of the article which he (the Earl of Albemarle) had quoted was a Hindoo of the name of Peary Chund Mittra, who, on the unimpeachable evidence of Dr. Duff, was stated to be a very intelligent young man of excellent character. In a letter to himself from Dr. Duff, which he was at liberty to read, there was this passage:—
"I beg to state that the name of the writer of the article on the 'Zemindar and the Ryot, is Peary Chund Mittra, a young man of good caste, of a Zemindar family himself, and for some years past librarian of the Calcutta Public Library, He was a particular friend of my own-—sober, sedate, and thoughtful, and free from the peculiar excesses and extravagances which have unhappily characterised a certain class of natives, usually designated 'Young Bengal.'"
Dr. Duff stated, indeed, that the soil of Bengal was so extremely fertile, that if a

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mere stranger, and especially a British functionary, unconversant with the inner workings and framework of Native society, were to enter a village with its beautiful trees, and see their rich products and gorgeous foliage, his judgment would be a flattering but mistaken one; and he added that from "the outward and apparent signs of plenty and abundance, it took him (Dr. Duff) some time to enable him to realise, with reference to the social state of the people, the fallaciousness of any estimate founded upon them;"—a remark which applied to the quotation he had referred to —and then he went on to say, that his own later and more enlarged experience led him to confirm the substantial correctness of the picture drawn by this Young Bengalee of the ryots. A discussion had taken place a few nights ago with reference to the evils which arose out of the salt system, and he regretted very much that he was not present on the occasion. On this subject he would beg to quote very briefly from a letter which he held in his hand from Mr. Worthington, the chairman of the Salt Commercial Company at North-wich. That gentleman stated that the price of one ton of best British table salt, stove dried, free on board the ship at Liverpool, was 15 s.; freight to Calcutta, at from 20 s. to 45 s., average1 l. 12 s. 6d; weighing, delivery at Calcutta, commission, &c, 6s. 6d.; total,2l. 14 s. This was for a ton of salt of a quality so superior to that of the East India Company as to have sold in March last at 80 rupees per 100 maunds, while the East India Company's salt sold at 50 rupees per 100 maunds. The Company's boiled salt cost I rupee per maund, or 2s. for every 82 l b., making the price 54 s. 6d. per ton. The salt duty amounted to 2½ rupees, or 5s., so that the price per ton became 191 s. 2d. —that was to say, that the people of India, where the price of labour was at the most 72 s. per year, paid from 12 to 13 times as much as the English people, where labour was six or seven times dearer. The price of salt which he had mentioned, however, was the prime cost of the article at the manufactory. What the addition to the price was, and what the other evils of this system were, he might be permitted to illustrate by the following quotation from the Calcutta Review. That periodical said—
"Now commences the iniquity of the system. A great proportion of the salt for inland consumption throughout the country is purchased by large wholesale merchants at less than 4 rupees the
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maund. These mix a fixed proportion of sand, chiefly got a few miles to the south-east of Dacca, and sell the mixture to a second, or (counting the Government) to a third monopolist, at about 5 or 6 rupees. This dealer adds more earth or ashes, and, thus passing through more hands from the larger towns to villages, the price is still further raised from 8 to 10 rupees, and the proportion of adulteration from 28 to 40 per cent—the imposition being most severe in the most distant places, to which there is no water-carriage. Suppose, however, any licensed dealer were, for the benefit of his business, to sell a purer salt than others, a combination is formed against him, and a false case is got up before the superintendent of salt chowkies, which ruins him."
It appeared, then, that the people of India paid from 21 l. 17 s. 2d. to 27 l. 6s. 2d. a ton for their salt, or, in other words, they paid from 30 to 36 times as much as the wealthy people of Great Britain. With these facts before him, he must confess that he had been considerably surprised at the almost fulsome eulogy which the right hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wood) had pronounced on this tax. His right hon. Friend was an advocate of free trade, and was the Financial Minister in the former Free-trade Cabinet, and it did, therefore, surprise him to find the right hon. Gentleman speaking in such terms of a tax which presented protection in its most execrable shape. It was not merely that his right hon. Friend had stated that the price was only9 d. a head—that alone in a family was as much as 2s. 9d. a year, or equal in amount to the income tax; but he had entirely omitted the expense of transport to different places, and the adulteration which amounted from 20 to 25 per cent. He would not trouble their Lordships any further on the present occasion; but, perhaps, however informal it was, he might be permitted to lay upon the table a petition from the Directors of the Manchester Commercial Association, praying the House not to sanction any measure for the future administration of the affairs of India which did not make provision for substantial improvements in the land tenures, public works, and commercial policy of that country. He would beg to move, that both petitions be referred to the Select Committee now sitting on Indian affairs.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that hitherto no check had been placed upon the discussion of this important subject in their Lordships' House; but after the debate which had recently taken place in another place, he must decline entering into a discussion of articles which might have appeared in a Calcutta paper. He should not oppose the

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reference of these petitions to the Committee.
Petitions referred to the Select Committee on Indian Territories.

THE ENCUMBERED ESTATES ACT (IRELAND) CONTINUANCE BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
LORD ST. LEONARDSmoved Amendments on Clause 10, the effect of which was to renew the Commission for one year instead of two, and to extend the duration of the Commissioners to three years instead of four.
LORD MONTEAGLEopposed the Amendment, but at the same time suggested that during the term of two years proposed by the Government, measures should be taken as far as possible to provide for the discontinuance of the extraordinary jurisdiction of the Commission, and the merging of its powers in the Ordinary jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that the Government would be happy if the necessity for continuing the Commission should cease before the termination of the term of two years, and that they would endeavour to provide for the absorption of its powers in the ordinary jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery.
LORD ST. LEONARDSdeclared that this was impossible, and that the powers of the Commission could never be exercised by the Court. He clearly perceived that the secret purpose of the Government was to perpetuate the extraordinary powers of the Commission, which he conceived to be most pernicious.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he hoped the law of England and Ireland would be assimilated, not only as to the income tax, but as to the Encumbered Estates Commission, the powers of which would prove most beneficial if applied in this country in some form, whether under a similar Commission or under the Court of Chancery.
The EARL of DESARTsaid, he could not concur in this wish, and scarcely thought the noble and learned Lord could have expressed it, had he not taken advantage of the Commission in some recent transactions of his in Ireland.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE,after expressing his opinion in favour of the continuance of the Act for two years, observed that, by the operation of the Encumbered Estates Act, a division of property had taken place of a most desirable nature in Ire-
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land, and that in a most legitimate manner. It had introduced a new and an important class of proprietors into Ireland, for a large proportion of English and Scottish capital had been so invested. From year to year, as this English and Scottish capital had been invested, the amount of such investment became greater and greater. The Act had not only introduced a new class of proprietors, but a new description of industry into that country.
The EARL of DERBYconfessed that, from what had been said this evening by the noble Marquess and by the noble and learned Lord the Chief Justice of England, the question appeared to him to be, not whether the Act should continue for one year or for two years, but whether it should be a part of the permanent system of legislation for Ireland, and, not only for Ireland, but, from what the noble and learned Lord had said, for England also. Now, to this he should strongly object. The Act, no doubt, had worked beneficially in many respects, but it had also worked very injuriously in various instances. There were many instances of persons who were perfectly able to meet all their liabilities, but whose estates were slightly encumbered, having been driven into this Court by the compulsory operation of the Act; and the effect of these forced sales was a great sacrifice, or perhaps entire ruin. The Bill was originally introduced as an exceptional measure to meet an exceptional state of things, and he wished to record his desire to restrict that exceptional system at the earliest possible period; consequently, he should vote in favour of his noble and learned Friend's Amendment.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEthought it was immaterial whether the Bill were continued for one year or two years, as he understood an intention had been expressed, amounting very nearly to a pledge, that there should be a very considerable alteration made in the law of real property in Ireland, so far as facilitating the sale and transfer of land, and the raising of money on real property. There was no doubt that the Encumbered Estates Act had conferred some advantages, and those, he hoped, would be preserved. And, as it was most desirable that the law in Ireland should be perfected with the least possible delay, if he thought the Amendment would effect that, he would vote for it. The Act, however, in other respects, had operated most prejudicially to the owners of

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real property in Ireland; because its effect was to throw the whole business of the sales of real property in that country into the Encumbered Estates Court, and by this means it put a stop to sales in other ways, and to the raising of money by way of mortgage. He thought, therefore, this state of things must be soon brought to a conclusion.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, the advantages and disadvantages of the Encumbered Estates Act had not yet been distinctly stated. The beneficial and advantageous part of the Act was, the facility it gave to the transfer of landed property, and the security it afforded to titles. But he would not, for the sake of preserving those advantages, consent to make the Act permanent either in Ireland or in this country; because the principle of the Bill was highly objectionable, that principle consisting in the power which the Bill gave to a man who might be a pecuniary encumbrancer on the estate, perhaps to a very small amount, of forcing into the market that estate. He should wish to see this principle altogether put down; but, as it was intended that it should exist for some little time further, he should prefer the period of two years to that of one year, because, if it were renewed only for the shorter term, it would bring so much landed property into the market at once that there would be a glut, and, consequently, a depreciation in the value of the property.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, that any encumbrancer, however small, had the power of presenting a petition to the Commissioners for the sale of the property; and, whether or not they were compelled, in practice they constantly did order the sale of the whole property, and the encumbrancer had the right of forcing the sale for his own encumbrance. He had lately had in his hands the papers relating to a case in which an encumbrancer for the small sum of7 l., with costs amounting to12 l., had presented a petition (doubtless under the auspices of some artful attorney) under which the Commissioners had actually ordered the sale of an estate worth200 l. a year, the first charge upon the proceeds of which would be the payment of the costs of the creditor on this petition.
On Question, their Lordships divided: —Content 36; Not Content 45: Majority 9.
Amendment disagreed to.
The EARL of DERBYsaid, that in the
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present state of the law, although the Encumbered Estates Commissioners had the power of ordering the sale of estates, they had no power to include in that sale any outstanding arrears of rent. The practice in Ireland was, that rents were not payable for a year, or a year and a half after the period at which they became due. There was no power to sell these arrears of rent with the estates, and consequently a purchaser found that for a year or a year and a half the seller was levying rents upon the property he had bought. He (the Earl of Derby) thought the simple remedy for this inconvenience would be to introduce words into the present Bill which would give power to the Commissioners to sell the outstanding arrears of rent at the same time with the property. In that case the persons selling would obtain fair and reasonable consideration for their rents, and the parties coining into possession would at once receive the rents of the property. He had not prepared any clause for the purpose of carrying his views into effect, but he preferred to bring the matter under the notice of the Government, who might consider before the third reading whether they deemed it desirable to introduce some provision on the subject.
LORD ST. LEONARDSfully concurred with the noble Earl as to the inconvenience he had pointed out attending the operation of the present Encumbered Estates Act, and hoped the subject would receive the attention of his noble Friend on the wool-sack.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he had already pledged himself to their Lordships that his only object in introducing this Bill had been to continue the Encumbered Estates Court in its present form, merely removing a few of the obvious anomalies which existed in the present law. He had thought, however, that the introduction of such a power as the noble Earl had referred to would be open to great objection on the part of those who considered that a power of that kind ought not to be given. He must say that he felt very great difficulty in introducing such a power with reference to encumbered estates sold under the Encumbered Estates Commission, which was not part and parcel of the general law of the land. It was said, that when estates were sold in Ireland, there was ordinarily a year's rent in arrear. If, upon a sale, it appeared desirable that the purchaser should receive the arrears of rents, it seemed to him that a general

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alteration of the law of Ireland was requisite to enable parties who sold estates to sell along with those estates the arrears of rent upon them. He did not see why an exception should be made merely in the case of parties whose property was sold under the authority of the Encumbered Estates Court, He would consider whether a clause on this subject could be introduced into the Bill; and he believed that, if it could be done, such a clause would not only meet the wishes of the noble Earl, but also of the Encumbered Estates Commissioners.
The EARL of DONOUGHMOREwas understood to say that it used to be the practice in Ireland to get up fictitious rent-rolls, and landlords who wished to borrow money from capitalists were able, perhaps, to present to them rentrolls of some 10,000 l. a year, though the rents actually received were 20 or 25 per cent below that amount. When the Encumbered Estates Act came into operation, the arrears of rent upon such properties were enormous, and the Commissioners had no power when they sold the estates to give a legal receipt for the arrears, though the former proprietors had never intended to claim them. This led to great inconvenience, and he thought it was most desirable that, if possible, some provision should be made in the present Bill for remedying that inconvenience, and for contriving some mode by which the arrears of rents on encumbered estates might be sold with the estates themselves. He had given notice of his intention to propose the addition of some clauses to this Bill; but after conversations which he had had with his noble Friends opposite, he was quite ready to leave the subject to which these clauses referred in the hands of the Government.
Bill to be read 3s on Tuesday next.
House adjourned to Monday next.