The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEMy Lords, it will be recollected that I took the liberty of putting a question one day last week on the same subject as that which I have now to bring before your Lordships, and that I then received an answer from my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, which I admitted at the time was, so far as it went, quite satisfactory. But, my Lords, I regret to say that I am compelled to repeat the same question now, and, in putting it, to ask a second question of my noble Friend, in consequence of information which has been very recently received. According to that information which has appeared in the public journals of this country, under date from Jassy, the 28th of July, it appears that the Government of the province, of which that city is the capital, has been entirely superseded, and that a new Government has been established by the authority of the Russian Emperor. It appears that the Hospodar is allowed to form part of this new Government, but that three assistants or Commissioners have been appointed to act with him, and that this council has the entire legislative and administrative power within the province. And, I believe, the same course has been pursued in Wallachia as in Moldavia, and that these two provinces are now under a new administrative and legislative Government appointed by the Emperor of Russia. But, my Lords, that is not all; for it appears that contributions for the support of the Russian forces are levied directly from the inhabitants of the provinces; and, more than that, my Lords, it appears that certain Boyards have been forcibly compelled to enlist in the service of the Russian Emperor. Thus, my Lords, we have these two provinces, if these accounts be correct—we have these two provinces in every respect under the rule and government of the Czar—the administrative and legislative functions carried on by Russian authority, and the taxation and resources of the country managed, raised, and administered under the authority of the Russian Emperor; and still more than that, you have the Russian armies forcibly recruited from those who are the subjects of those provinces, and under the direct government of the Porte. 1419 Now, my Lords, the first question I have to ask my noble Friend is, whether he has received any information on this important subject, either contradicting or affirming what I have stated? And the second question—and it is one which very naturally occurs upon the first; so naturally, that I cannot refrain from putting it, even though I may be considered by my noble Friend indiscreet in doing so—and I am sure it is one which almost every man in this country, and most certainly every Member of either House of Parliement, must be most anxious to have answered—the second question is, if these facts are true and cannot be contradicted, what has the Government of this country done thereupon? This question, as your Lordships will perceive, divides itself into two parts—first, what have Her Majesty's Government done here at home? And, secondly, what have they done by their functionaries abroad? I have very little doubt as to the latter point; and I hope I shall be told that there is very little reason to doubt that, at the moment when I have now the honour of addressing your Lordships, the combined fleets are at last before Constantinople, on the other side of the Dardanelles. I cannot believe it possible that the Ambassadors of France and England should have had any restrictions imposed by their respective Governments on their discretion in regard to the directions they may think it necessary to give to the Admiral commanding the combined force, nor can I doubt for an instant that my noble Friend and relative at Constantinople will have thought it right to hesitate in acting with that spirit and energy which becomes the representative of this great country. If I ask, then, my Lords, what has been done at home, I hope and expect that I shall be told that either long before this intelligence was received in this country, or, at all events, since it was received, there has been, not a mere request for explanation, but a categorical demand that the Danubian Principalities shall be immediately evacuated by the Russian forces. For, I say, if we have undertaken and advised the Porte, so that the Porte has held back her arm, and not attempted to defend her territory, we have made ourselves parties to these transactions, as well by what is doing now as by what has been done under former treaties; and I cannot believe, nor will I allow myself to believe, that these statements that have arrived are in all respects true, because there is no explaining away what is 1420 Known to be the fact—there can be no doubt whatever, if the statements reported be true—that Russia, in assuming the government of these two Principalities, and in so taking possession of the territory in question, has committed an aggression upon Turkey, in utter contradiction of the circulars voluntarily issued by her to the Courts of Europe on the subject, as well as of the manifestoes issued by the Russian general on entering the Provinces. I am not, however, my Lords, going to discuss that matter now, of which notice has been given for a discussion on a future evening; but I must say, I cannot doubt that the energetic steps I have referred to must have been taken—because what is this act, but the strongest possible proceeding of war on the part of Russia? We were told, when the Russian forces entered these provinces, that it was not to make war upon Turkey. Why, what I have described is itself war. It is either war or piracy; and if it is not war, it is piracy. And are we in this position that we are to suffer war to be waged upon our ally upon such pretences as are here put forward, or are we to stand by and see this act of violence committed upon Turkey without interfering? If we are to be told that it is a question of treaty whether the fleet shall be inside or outside the Dardanelles, I say there is now such a state of war as abolishes all treaties between Russia and Turkey, so far as Russia is concerned. There does not exist a single treaty binding on Turkey after the aggression which has been perpetrated upon her by Russia. There can be no reason whatever, then, for not acting. And what is the state of things disclosed by the answers we have received from the Government in either House of Parliament? That we have sent notes. Aye, but you have sent other notes; and we were told there was another note to be sent from Vienna last Sunday or Monday; but while you are sending notes the Russian forces are advancing, and, beyond the Principalities I have named, are taking possession of another territory nearer to Constantinople. It may be said, "Good news has been received, and appears in the papers of to-day," and I shall be told probably, if that news is true, that the proposal which has been sent from Vienna has been received favourably at St. Petersburg. But we do not know what that proposal is, and before you can expect that the fact of its acceptance can give unqualified satisfaction, we must 1421 know what is the nature of the proposal which has been made. It is clear, however, that it is not the proposal which was alluded to last week in the House of Commons; for we were then told that the messenger would leave Vienna with a proposal from England and France on the Sunday or Monday, whereas this news dates from St. Petersburg on the 3rd instant, and it is utterly impossible that leaving Vienna on the 1st, it could have reached St. Petersburg on the 3rd. Therefore this news must relate to some previous Austrian proposition. We do not know, then, what the proposal which has been accepted is. But I am sure, after what has occurred, your Lordships will not consider, and the country will not consider, any proposition satisfactory, if it be not for the immediate and complete evacuation of the Turkish territory. But under this, which I call good news, there is news of a very different quality received to-day; for it is therein stated that the Russian flotilla, which had been collected at Ismail, is in possession of the whole of the upper part of the river, and consists of 200 vessels, of which 150 are gun-boats. Thus while we are passing notes and sending couriers, we have not only the occupation of the Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia, but the invasion of Bulgaria, and the whole of the Danube, that great river, the most important to the commerce of Europe, in the possession on both sides of a Russian force. These are things which, while I am anxious to wait with the utmost patience for the explanations it may be convenient to the Government to give, render it impossible for me to refrain from putting the questions of which I have given notice, and to which I hope we may obtain a direct answer. I can assure your Lordships that there is no man in either House of Parliament who has a more sincere abhorrence of war than I have, unless it be necessary—I do not say justifiable, but unless it be absolutely necessary—for the maintenance of the honour and character, and essential to the dignity of the country. But at the same time I do say, that if we are to sacrifice our honour and character, and our dignity as a nation when they are involved, in the face of Europe—then I say the whole material interests of the country must also suffer. It is for this reason, my Lords, that I have taken the liberty of making this statement before asking the questions which I am now about to put to my noble Friend. Those questions are, first, I wish to know 1422 once more whether my noble Friend has any official authentic information in reference to the statement I have made of the proceedings of the Russian authorities in the Danubian provinces of Turkey; and if that is the case, what steps have been taken by the British Government in consequence of such proceedings?
§ The EARL of CLARENDONMy Lords, I am afraid it will not be in my power to give my noble Friend any answer materially different from that which I gave five days ago in reply to the same question. I agree entirely now, as I did last week, in everything that has fallen from my noble Friend with respect to the consequences that would arise, both to Turkey and to Europe, from any permanent occupation, or anything resembling a permanent occupation, of the Principalities by Russia. But I must again inform my noble Friend that we have no information—no official information—of the character my noble Friend has brought before your Lordships—I will not certainly deny that many of the events to which he has alluded may not have been committed by the Russian Government—(but I must, at the same time, add, that I derive my information merely from the same sources as my noble Friend)—I will not deny that there has been a sort of a Committee of Government formed for carrying on the government of the Principalities together with the Hospodars; but we have no official information whatever of that kind. And I am sure my noble Friend will agree, and your Lordships will be of opinion, that for the Government to proceed to act upon newspaper reports as they arrive would be the height of rashness. My noble Friend has said that he believes the Danube has been crossed, and that Bulgaria has been actually entered by Russia. I have no reason to believe that such is the fact, but the contrary; for I have this afternoon received letters from Galatz of the 28th ult., in which no allusion is made to that circumstance, though there is certainly some allusion to what I will not more particularly advert here in your Lordships' House as to the few gun-boats that were brought down the river, and of the bellicose character of the Russian proceedings. We have likewise communications from Jassy to the 27th, and from Bucharest to the 26th, and in neither of them is there any mention of this new form of government being established. It is true it is stated in these communications that the presence of the Russian troops has led to the infliction of much 1423 hardship upon the inhabitants, and that the peasants are made to do a certain amount of work, and are withdrawn from their agricultural operations; but there is no mention of any recruiting having taken place, or of any forced contributions, while there is mention of a large quantity of provisions having been sent from Bessarabia, which is a part of the Russian territory, for the use of the Russian troops in the Principalities. Therefore, I say, and I am sure your Lordships will agree with me, that for the Government to act upon such information as we see in the newspapers—and some of the accounts which we have seen since the question was brought forward last week have been already proved to be incorrect—I say for the Government to act upon such reports would be the height of rashness. I assure my noble Friend that he cannot exceed me, first in his abhorrence of war, and next in his desire for peace, provided that peace be an honourable peace—and I am sure no other peace can ever be to the permanent interests of this country, or receive the support or sanction of this great nation. But, my Lords, at the point at which we have arrived in these negotiations, and which I do see reason to hope are tending to bring about a peaceful solution of the difficulty, I am quite sure you will concur with me that exciting debates in either House of Parliament at this moment are not likely to aid in producing that peace, and that particular character of peace, which alone can be permanently beneficial to this country. I can further inform my noble Friend that the negotiations appear to me to be assuming that character which we all of us must desire. And, I may add, that the question has not been left as one simply between Russia and the Porte—it has not been left as a question between England and France, united closely though they are for the support of the Porte—but it has assumed a European character; that is, in all these proceedings not only the Porte, but Austria, Prussia, England, and France, all are acting cordially together in order to check designs which they consider inconsistent with the balance of power, or with those territorial limits which have been established by various treaties. This, then, is a state of things which I say is satisfactory to your Lordships and to the country, because it is likely to lead to a satisfactory and a lasting peace. I hope your Lordships will not press me to enter further into details as to the state of the negotiations now pending between Vienna 1424 and St. Petersburg, further than to say that nothing has been done at. Vienna, except with the full consent of the English and French Governments, and to assure your Lordships once more that the English and French Governments will consent to no arrangement which does not protect and secure the independence of Turkey.
§ The EARL of ALBEMARLEMy Lords, is quite impossible to believe, that when two great nations like England and France stand forward in defence of a Power like Turkey, that the negotiations can be other than successful, or to believe that a discussion upon their negotiations and proceedings should disclose anything discreditable to either Power. The noble Earl (the Earl of Clarendon) cannot say he has been hurried for explanations by this side of the House. We have patiently waited, notwithstanding the deep anxiety in the country upon the subject, until this late period of the Session, without saying a word that can in the remotest degree tend to impede the success of the negotiations which we were told were pending. But, my Lords, there is a point at which this patient conduct must cease. Parliament is to be prorogued, I believe, in about eight or ten days; and when the public understand that Parliament is to be prorogued in ten days or a fortnight, when the country is on the very brink of war, and they know nothing of what has passed, or of the actual state of the negotiations between this country and Russia, though they have been perfectly well informed of what has passed between the French Government and Russia, by the circular of M. Drouyn de Lhuys, and though they have been twice informed of what the Russian policy was by the notes of Count Nesselrode—when they consider that their own Government has not thought fit to avail themselves of the same channels of information, nor utter a word in Parliament by which the real state of affairs can be gathered—I say I think it will be the general opinion of the country, as well as of your Lordships, that before Parliament separates for five or six months, some information a little more in detail than anything we have yet had should be given by Her Majesty's Ministers. I see no reason why Parliament should not have full information, without incurring any risk of a debate that could be in any way injurious to the progress of the negotiations or undignified as regarded this House. For myself I can safely say, that if I were to partici- 1425 pate in any debate on the subject, I should carefully abstain from saying a syllable that could in any way impede the desirable progress which the noble Earl has intimated the negotiations are making—desirable, because no man in this country, certainly no man in this or the other House of Parliament, but must desire peace as long as peace can be maintained with honour. I trust that, under the present circumstances of the Session the noble Earl will not, on some future day, refuse to give the House and the country some idea of what is to be the policy of Her Majesty's Ministers in their negotiations with the Russian Government, and that he will tell your Lordships and the country a little more precisely than he has yet done, that it is to be a sine quâ[...] non in any negotiations, that Russia should evacuate, and speedily evacuate, the Danubian Provinces:—because, when the noble Earl talks of "permanent occupation" of these Provinces by Russians, it is a term difficult of explanation. Anything like a permanent occupation would be an appropriation of those Provinces. I do not think the country will be satisfied with any thing less than their immediate evacuation: and I conceive the noble Earl owes it to the country to state, that the policy of Her Majesty's Government is to insist upon the speedy restoration of those Provinces to their lawful Sovereign.
§ The EARL of CLARENDONI should be very sorry if there existed the slightest misapprehension, even for a single day, with respect to my meaning with regard to the Russian occupation of the Danubian Provinces. I have no hesitation now in informing my noble Friend, without waiting for any further discussion, that we look to the immediate and complete evacuation of the Danubian Provinces as a sine quâ non of any agreement whatever. With respect to any discussion, or any statement which it may seem to any Member of the House desirable to make, I hope your Lordships will bear in mind that the Government have not wished to shrink from this discussion, or to lay the fullest information before Parliament of what has been done. I did not even ask my noble Friend (the Marquess of Clanricarde) to postpone the Motion of which he had given notice for a previous evening. On the contrary, I told my noble Friend that if he thought fit to ask for information on behalf of your Lordships and the country, he was perfectly right and justified in so doing; and 1426 the noble Marquess, yielding to the request of noble Lords, did so independent of the Government, and without even giving the Government notice of his intention. I hope, therefore, it will be remembered that the Government do not shrink from any discussion; and any disposition I ever had to lay the fullest information before your Lordships is greatly increased by the prospect—I fear not quite so immediate a prospect—of the close of the Session. I do think it desirable the country should have every information we can give it, and I can assure my noble Friend, nothing will prevent Her Majesty's Government from doing so, except those reasons which have hitherto influenced them—regard for the public service—and which have been recognised and approved by this House.
§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHI should be very glad to receive a denial of a report, which, indeed, I can hardly believe. I allude to the report that Russia has availed itself of the present moment for demanding from Persia payment of a large sum of money, and has intimated her readiness to accept a province in part payment. I beg to ask whether the noble Earl has received any information on this subject?
§ The EARL of CLARENDONI have seen the report to which the noble Earl refers, and have taken the best means to ascertain its truth; but I am without any official information on the subject, one way or the other. If I may draw inferences from other information, I should say that no such arrangement has been proposed.