Lords Sitting of 8 August 1853

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Earl of Minto.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Sheriffs (Scotland); Assessed Taxes; Passengers Act Amendment.
2a Naval Coast Volunteers; Liberated Africans (Sierra Leone); Land Tax Redemption; Newspaper Stamp Duties; Consolidated Annuities (Ireland); Dublin Carriage; Turnpike Acts Continuance (Ireland).
3a Brecon Collegiate Church.

LAW OF LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND)—THE CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, there were some important Bills which stood for to-morrow, and which professed to consolidate and amend the laws affecting landowners and occupiers, and freehold leasehold property in Ireland. He was sure their Lordships would agree with him that all Bills for consolidating the law should be considered with the greatest care, and that the whole of the statutes relating to the subject dealt with should be compared with the new code. It had been usual in all such cases to issue a commission, but that that step had not been thought necessary in the present instance. The question he wished to ask was, whether such of the Bills relating to the law affecting landowners and occupiers and freehold and leasehold property in Ireland, which purported to consolidate a large number of statutes, had been submitted to the law advisers of the Irish Government, and the opinion of those learned functionaries obtained as to the safety and accuracy of those Bills in that respect?
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEagreed with the noble Marquess that it was essential, in the case of any Bills for consolida-

1417
ting the law, that they should be compared with the existing statutes, and that the greatest care should be taken in their preparation. He had great pleasure, therefore, in being able to answer the question in a way which he thought would be satisfactory. It would be recollected that the Bills to which the noble Marquess referred had been introduced by Mr. Napier, when Attorney General for Ireland, and that they had not only the advantage of his great learning and legal ability, but were submitted by him to the most eminent lawyers before they were introduced to the other House. After the change of Government, notwithstanding the reliance that might have been placed on the opinion already given, it was thought desirable that the Bills should be submitted to the law officers of the new Administration. They were accordingly submitted to the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and the Attorney and Solicitor General for Ireland, and they reported that the Bills had been drawn up with great care and accuracy, accompanying their report with a recommendation that they should be passed as speedily as possible into law.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, it was physically impossible, with reference at least to the schedules, that those learned personages to whom the noble Duke referred could have seen the present Bills, for, on the last stage of the Bill in the other House last Monday, not less than six Acts of Parliament had been struck out of the schedule, and not less than five Acts which were not previously there put in. The Bill came up to that House on Thursday, and was not printed again till it came before their Lordships, so that it was impossible the learned gentleman to whom the noble Duke referred could have seen the schedules in their present state.
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEsaid, notwithstanding what had fallen from his noble Friend, the answer he had given was perfectly accurate. No doubt, if such Amendments as he mentioned were introduced at the last stage of the Bill, they could not have been seen by the gentlemen to whom he had referred; and he was unable to say whether they were aware of the nature of those alterations or not. He had spoken from information derived from the Secretary for Ireland; but of course his answer did not apply to alterations made on the third reading. He should make inquiry upon the subject.
The EARL of MALMESBURYobserved,
1418
that these Bills must not be regarded as the identical Bills brought in by the late Government, for they had been very considerably altered.

RUSSIA AND THE PORTE—QUESTION.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE: My Lords, it will be recollected that I took the liberty of putting a question one day last week on the same subject as that which I have now to bring before your Lordships, and that I then received an answer from my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, which I admitted at the time was, so far as it went, quite satisfactory. But, my Lords, I regret to say that I am compelled to repeat the same question now, and, in putting it, to ask a second question of my noble Friend, in consequence of information which has been very recently received. According to that information which has appeared in the public journals of this country, under date from Jassy, the 28th of July, it appears that the Government of the province, of which that city is the capital, has been entirely superseded, and that a new Government has been established by the authority of the Russian Emperor. It appears that the Hospodar is allowed to form part of this new Government, but that three assistants or Commissioners have been appointed to act with him, and that this council has the entire legislative and administrative power within the province. And, I believe, the same course has been pursued in Wallachia as in Moldavia, and that these two provinces are now under a new administrative and legislative Government appointed by the Emperor of Russia. But, my Lords, that is not all; for it appears that contributions for the support of the Russian forces are levied directly from the inhabitants of the provinces; and, more than that, my Lords, it appears that certain Boyards have been forcibly compelled to enlist in the service of the Russian Emperor. Thus, my Lords, we have these two provinces, if these accounts be correct—we have these two provinces in every respect under the rule and government of the Czar—the administrative and legislative functions carried on by Russian authority, and the taxation and resources of the country managed, raised, and administered under the authority of the Russian Emperor; and still more than that, you have the Russian armies forcibly recruited from those who are the subjects of those provinces, and under the direct government of the Porte.

1419
Now, my Lords, the first question I have to ask my noble Friend is, whether he has received any information on this important subject, either contradicting or affirming what I have stated? And the second question—and it is one which very naturally occurs upon the first; so naturally, that I cannot refrain from putting it, even though I may be considered by my noble Friend indiscreet in doing so—and I am sure it is one which almost every man in this country, and most certainly every Member of either House of Parliement, must be most anxious to have answered—the second question is, if these facts are true and cannot be contradicted, what has the Government of this country done thereupon? This question, as your Lordships will perceive, divides itself into two parts—first, what have Her Majesty's Government done here at home? And, secondly, what have they done by their functionaries abroad? I have very little doubt as to the latter point; and I hope I shall be told that there is very little reason to doubt that, at the moment when I have now the honour of addressing your Lordships, the combined fleets are at last before Constantinople, on the other side of the Dardanelles. I cannot believe it possible that the Ambassadors of France and England should have had any restrictions imposed by their respective Governments on their discretion in regard to the directions they may think it necessary to give to the Admiral commanding the combined force, nor can I doubt for an instant that my noble Friend and relative at Constantinople will have thought it right to hesitate in acting with that spirit and energy which becomes the representative of this great country. If I ask, then, my Lords, what has been done at home, I hope and expect that I shall be told that either long before this intelligence was received in this country, or, at all events, since it was received, there has been, not a mere request for explanation, but a categorical demand that the Danubian Principalities shall be immediately evacuated by the Russian forces. For, I say, if we have undertaken and advised the Porte, so that the Porte has held back her arm, and not attempted to defend her territory, we have made ourselves parties to these transactions, as well by what is doing now as by what has been done under former treaties; and I cannot believe, nor will I allow myself to believe, that these statements that have arrived are in all respects true, because there is no explaining away what is
1420
Known to be the fact—there can be no doubt whatever, if the statements reported be true—that Russia, in assuming the government of these two Principalities, and in so taking possession of the territory in question, has committed an aggression upon Turkey, in utter contradiction of the circulars voluntarily issued by her to the Courts of Europe on the subject, as well as of the manifestoes issued by the Russian general on entering the Provinces. I am not, however, my Lords, going to discuss that matter now, of which notice has been given for a discussion on a future evening; but I must say, I cannot doubt that the energetic steps I have referred to must have been taken—because what is this act, but the strongest possible proceeding of war on the part of Russia? We were told, when the Russian forces entered these provinces, that it was not to make war upon Turkey. Why, what I have described is itself war. It is either war or piracy; and if it is not war, it is piracy. And are we in this position that we are to suffer war to be waged upon our ally upon such pretences as are here put forward, or are we to stand by and see this act of violence committed upon Turkey without interfering? If we are to be told that it is a question of treaty whether the fleet shall be inside or outside the Dardanelles, I say there is now such a state of war as abolishes all treaties between Russia and Turkey, so far as Russia is concerned. There does not exist a single treaty binding on Turkey after the aggression which has been perpetrated upon her by Russia. There can be no reason whatever, then, for not acting. And what is the state of things disclosed by the answers we have received from the Government in either House of Parliament? That we have sent notes. Aye, but you have sent other notes; and we were told there was another note to be sent from Vienna last Sunday or Monday; but while you are sending notes the Russian forces are advancing, and, beyond the Principalities I have named, are taking possession of another territory nearer to Constantinople. It may be said, "Good news has been received, and appears in the papers of to-day," and I shall be told probably, if that news is true, that the proposal which has been sent from Vienna has been received favourably at St. Petersburg. But we do not know what that proposal is, and before you can expect that the fact of its acceptance can give unqualified satisfaction, we must

1421
know what is the nature of the proposal which has been made. It is clear, however, that it is not the proposal which was alluded to last week in the House of Commons; for we were then told that the messenger would leave Vienna with a proposal from England and France on the Sunday or Monday, whereas this news dates from St. Petersburg on the 3rd instant, and it is utterly impossible that leaving Vienna on the 1st, it could have reached St. Petersburg on the 3rd. Therefore this news must relate to some previous Austrian proposition. We do not know, then, what the proposal which has been accepted is. But I am sure, after what has occurred, your Lordships will not consider, and the country will not consider, any proposition satisfactory, if it be not for the immediate and complete evacuation of the Turkish territory. But under this, which I call good news, there is news of a very different quality received to-day; for it is therein stated that the Russian flotilla, which had been collected at Ismail, is in possession of the whole of the upper part of the river, and consists of 200 vessels, of which 150 are gun-boats. Thus while we are passing notes and sending couriers, we have not only the occupation of the Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia, but the invasion of Bulgaria, and the whole of the Danube, that great river, the most important to the commerce of Europe, in the possession on both sides of a Russian force. These are things which, while I am anxious to wait with the utmost patience for the explanations it may be convenient to the Government to give, render it impossible for me to refrain from putting the questions of which I have given notice, and to which I hope we may obtain a direct answer. I can assure your Lordships that there is no man in either House of Parliament who has a more sincere abhorrence of war than I have, unless it be necessary—I do not say justifiable, but unless it be absolutely necessary—for the maintenance of the honour and character, and essential to the dignity of the country. But at the same time I do say, that if we are to sacrifice our honour and character, and our dignity as a nation when they are involved, in the face of Europe—then I say the whole material interests of the country must also suffer. It is for this reason, my Lords, that I have taken the liberty of making this statement before asking the questions which I am now about to put to my noble Friend. Those questions are, first, I wish to know
1422
once more whether my noble Friend has any official authentic information in reference to the statement I have made of the proceedings of the Russian authorities in the Danubian provinces of Turkey; and if that is the case, what steps have been taken by the British Government in consequence of such proceedings?
The EARL of CLARENDON: My Lords, I am afraid it will not be in my power to give my noble Friend any answer materially different from that which I gave five days ago in reply to the same question. I agree entirely now, as I did last week, in everything that has fallen from my noble Friend with respect to the consequences that would arise, both to Turkey and to Europe, from any permanent occupation, or anything resembling a permanent occupation, of the Principalities by Russia. But I must again inform my noble Friend that we have no information—no official information—of the character my noble Friend has brought before your Lordships—I will not certainly deny that many of the events to which he has alluded may not have been committed by the Russian Government—(but I must, at the same time, add, that I derive my information merely from the same sources as my noble Friend)—I will not deny that there has been a sort of a Committee of Government formed for carrying on the government of the Principalities together with the Hospodars; but we have no official information whatever of that kind. And I am sure my noble Friend will agree, and your Lordships will be of opinion, that for the Government to proceed to act upon newspaper reports as they arrive would be the height of rashness. My noble Friend has said that he believes the Danube has been crossed, and that Bulgaria has been actually entered by Russia. I have no reason to believe that such is the fact, but the contrary; for I have this afternoon received letters from Galatz of the 28th ult., in which no allusion is made to that circumstance, though there is certainly some allusion to what I will not more particularly advert here in your Lordships' House as to the few gun-boats that were brought down the river, and of the bellicose character of the Russian proceedings. We have likewise communications from Jassy to the 27th, and from Bucharest to the 26th, and in neither of them is there any mention of this new form of government being established. It is true it is stated in these communications that the presence of the Russian troops has led to the infliction of much

1423
hardship upon the inhabitants, and that the peasants are made to do a certain amount of work, and are withdrawn from their agricultural operations; but there is no mention of any recruiting having taken place, or of any forced contributions, while there is mention of a large quantity of provisions having been sent from Bessarabia, which is a part of the Russian territory, for the use of the Russian troops in the Principalities. Therefore, I say, and I am sure your Lordships will agree with me, that for the Government to act upon such information as we see in the newspapers—and some of the accounts which we have seen since the question was brought forward last week have been already proved to be incorrect—I say for the Government to act upon such reports would be the height of rashness. I assure my noble Friend that he cannot exceed me, first in his abhorrence of war, and next in his desire for peace, provided that peace be an honourable peace—and I am sure no other peace can ever be to the permanent interests of this country, or receive the support or sanction of this great nation. But, my Lords, at the point at which we have arrived in these negotiations, and which I do see reason to hope are tending to bring about a peaceful solution of the difficulty, I am quite sure you will concur with me that exciting debates in either House of Parliament at this moment are not likely to aid in producing that peace, and that particular character of peace, which alone can be permanently beneficial to this country. I can further inform my noble Friend that the negotiations appear to me to be assuming that character which we all of us must desire. And, I may add, that the question has not been left as one simply between Russia and the Porte—it has not been left as a question between England and France, united closely though they are for the support of the Porte—but it has assumed a European character; that is, in all these proceedings not only the Porte, but Austria, Prussia, England, and France, all are acting cordially together in order to check designs which they consider inconsistent with the balance of power, or with those territorial limits which have been established by various treaties. This, then, is a state of things which I say is satisfactory to your Lordships and to the country, because it is likely to lead to a satisfactory and a lasting peace. I hope your Lordships will not press me to enter further into details as to the state of the negotiations now pending between Vienna
1424
and St. Petersburg, further than to say that nothing has been done at. Vienna, except with the full consent of the English and French Governments, and to assure your Lordships once more that the English and French Governments will consent to no arrangement which does not protect and secure the independence of Turkey.
The EARL of ALBEMARLE: My Lords, is quite impossible to believe, that when two great nations like England and France stand forward in defence of a Power like Turkey, that the negotiations can be other than successful, or to believe that a discussion upon their negotiations and proceedings should disclose anything discreditable to either Power. The noble Earl (the Earl of Clarendon) cannot say he has been hurried for explanations by this side of the House. We have patiently waited, notwithstanding the deep anxiety in the country upon the subject, until this late period of the Session, without saying a word that can in the remotest degree tend to impede the success of the negotiations which we were told were pending. But, my Lords, there is a point at which this patient conduct must cease. Parliament is to be prorogued, I believe, in about eight or ten days; and when the public understand that Parliament is to be prorogued in ten days or a fortnight, when the country is on the very brink of war, and they know nothing of what has passed, or of the actual state of the negotiations between this country and Russia, though they have been perfectly well informed of what has passed between the French Government and Russia, by the circular of M. Drouyn de Lhuys, and though they have been twice informed of what the Russian policy was by the notes of Count Nesselrode—when they consider that their own Government has not thought fit to avail themselves of the same channels of information, nor utter a word in Parliament by which the real state of affairs can be gathered—I say I think it will be the general opinion of the country, as well as of your Lordships, that before Parliament separates for five or six months, some information a little more in detail than anything we have yet had should be given by Her Majesty's Ministers. I see no reason why Parliament should not have full information, without incurring any risk of a debate that could be in any way injurious to the progress of the negotiations or undignified as regarded this House. For myself I can safely say, that if I were to partici-

1425
pate in any debate on the subject, I should carefully abstain from saying a syllable that could in any way impede the desirable progress which the noble Earl has intimated the negotiations are making—desirable, because no man in this country, certainly no man in this or the other House of Parliament, but must desire peace as long as peace can be maintained with honour. I trust that, under the present circumstances of the Session the noble Earl will not, on some future day, refuse to give the House and the country some idea of what is to be the policy of Her Majesty's Ministers in their negotiations with the Russian Government, and that he will tell your Lordships and the country a little more precisely than he has yet done, that it is to be a sine quâ non in any negotiations, that Russia should evacuate, and speedily evacuate, the Danubian Provinces:—because, when the noble Earl talks of "permanent occupation" of these Provinces by Russians, it is a term difficult of explanation. Anything like a permanent occupation would be an appropriation of those Provinces. I do not think the country will be satisfied with any thing less than their immediate evacuation: and I conceive the noble Earl owes it to the country to state, that the policy of Her Majesty's Government is to insist upon the speedy restoration of those Provinces to their lawful Sovereign.
The EARL of CLARENDON: I should be very sorry if there existed the slightest misapprehension, even for a single day, with respect to my meaning with regard to the Russian occupation of the Danubian Provinces. I have no hesitation now in informing my noble Friend, without waiting for any further discussion, that we look to the immediate and complete evacuation of the Danubian Provinces as a sine quâ non of any agreement whatever. With respect to any discussion, or any statement which it may seem to any Member of the House desirable to make, I hope your Lordships will bear in mind that the Government have not wished to shrink from this discussion, or to lay the fullest information before Parliament of what has been done. I did not even ask my noble Friend (the Marquess of Clanricarde) to postpone the Motion of which he had given notice for a previous evening. On the contrary, I told my noble Friend that if he thought fit to ask for information on behalf of your Lordships and the country, he was perfectly right and justified in so doing; and
1426
the noble Marquess, yielding to the request of noble Lords, did so independent of the Government, and without even giving the Government notice of his intention. I hope, therefore, it will be remembered that the Government do not shrink from any discussion; and any disposition I ever had to lay the fullest information before your Lordships is greatly increased by the prospect—I fear not quite so immediate a prospect—of the close of the Session. I do think it desirable the country should have every information we can give it, and I can assure my noble Friend, nothing will prevent Her Majesty's Government from doing so, except those reasons which have hitherto influenced them—regard for the public service—and which have been recognised and approved by this House.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH: I should be very glad to receive a denial of a report, which, indeed, I can hardly believe. I allude to the report that Russia has availed itself of the present moment for demanding from Persia payment of a large sum of money, and has intimated her readiness to accept a province in part payment. I beg to ask whether the noble Earl has received any information on this subject?
The EARL of CLARENDON: I have seen the report to which the noble Earl refers, and have taken the best means to ascertain its truth; but I am without any official information on the subject, one way or the other. If I may draw inferences from other information, I should say that no such arrangement has been proposed.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee, read.
Moved—"That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee."
On Question, agreed to: House in Committee accordingly.
On Clause 1 (Until Parliament shall otherwise provide, the British Territories in India to be continued under the Governor of the Company, subject to the Provisions of this Act).
The EARL of ALBEMARLEsaid, the people of India complained of the excessive taxation to which they were subjected for the purpose of maintaining enormous establishments. It having been determined that the double government should be maintained, no economy could be effected here, and therefore it was necessary to turn our eyes to India, in order to ascer-

1427
tain what reductions might be made there. The suggestion he had to make in this respect was, that the Government of the Presidencies of Madras and Bombay by Governors in Council should be abolished, and Lieutenant Governors substituted for them. To show their Lordships the saving which would be effected by this arrangement, he would contrast the cost of government in the Presidencies with that of the North West Provinces. The population of the North West Provinces was 23,800,594, and the civil and political charges were 185,872 l.; while in Madras, with a population of only 16,339,426, the civil and political charges amounted to 314,524 l. In Bombay the case was still worse, for while the population was only 11,109,067, the civil and political charges were not less than 363,312 l. Thus, then, it appeared that Madras, with 7,500,000 fewer people, paid nearly 70 per cent more for its civil and political administration than the North West Provinces; while Bombay, with less than half the population of the Provinces, paid nearly twice as much for its administration. It should be borne in mind, also, that the Provinces were not only more economically but also much better governed, than the Presidencies. Applying the same scale of expenditure to the Presidencies as existed in the Provinces, the annual saving would amount to 300,000 l.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 2 (After the Second Wednesday in April, 1854, there shall be eighteen Directors of the Company).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH, in reference to that part of the clause which requires the presence, signature, consent, or concurrence of ten Directors, in cases where fourteen were necessary before, proposed to add the following clause:—
"Provided, that in every case in which all the Proceedings between the Court of Directors and the Commissioners for the Affairs of India with respect to any Letter proposed to be sent to any Authority in India having been completed according to Law, the said Commissioners shall have directed that such letter so finally approved by them shall be transmitted forthwith, and such Letter shall not be signed as hereinbefore enacted within the space of Seven Days, or having been signed, shall not have been transmitted to India by the first Mail thereafter, it shall be lawful for the said Commissioners to sign the same, and such Letter so signed shall be transmitted to India by the said Commissioners, and shall have the same Force and Effect as if it had been signed by the requisite Number of Directors as hereinbefore enacted."
1428
The noble Earl said, that the object of the proposed clause was to facilitate the transaction of business, and to prevent any obstruction taking place from the members of the Court of Directors being unwilling to sign a letter of which they disapproved. He could not say that during his time in India such a circumstance had occurred; but he knew that it often happened much to the prejudice of public business. The proper course to be taken was laid down by the Act of Parliament. Communications took place between the Board of Control and the Court of Directors; and when the Board of Control was satisfied that a letter of which they approved ought to be transmitted to India, they issued a direction to that effect. By law, a certain number of Directors ought to sign such letter, in order to secure its transmission; but the Court of Directors had occasionally taken upon themselves to withhold their signatures. Now he knew not how, unless the Court of Queen's Bench were to be applied to for a mandamus, which would create delay, these gentlemen could be compelled to take up a pen and write their names. The Directors were not at liberty to refuse to sign a letter, unless they were of opinion it was illegal; and they had not the privilege of going to the Court of Queen's Bench upon questions of policy. Only on questions of law could they do that. But they might undoubtedly obstruct public business by refusing to sign; and therefore he proposed to add the proviso which he had just read. He would inform their Lordships of his reasons for this proposition. He had once, when at the Board of Control, directed a letter to be so sent to India; and he thought it had been sent according to law; but to his great surprise he found afterwards that it had not been sent. This letter related to a legal question of the greatest importance—to the position of the fourth ordinary Member of the Council, and the power of the Governor General to overrule his Council in legislation. It was contrary to law, and to the intention of Parliament, that he should do so. One of the Members of Council at Calcutta entertained a different opinion, and he (the Earl of Ellenborough) thought it necessary immediately to have the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, and the law advisers of the Court of Directors upon the subject. Their joint opinion, in connexion with his own, was prepared, and he thought it had been sent out to India; but to the best of his belief it never was

1429
sent. Undoubtedly the directions he had given with regard to the position of an ordinary Member of Council never were sent at all. This was a violation of the intentions of the Legislature; and he thought it would be met by the proviso he now submitted to their Lordships.
Amendment proposed—
"Provided, that in every case in which all the proceeding between the Court of Directors and the Commissioners for the Affairs of India with respect to any letter proposed to be sent to any authority in India having been completed according to law, the said Commissioners shall have directed that such letter so finally approved by them shall be transmitted forthwith, and such letter shall not be signed as hereinbefore enacted within the space of seven days, or having been signed shall not have been transmitted to India by the first Mail thereafter, it shall be lawful for the said Commissioners to sign the same, and such letter so signed shall be transmitted to India by the said Commissioners, and shall have the same force and effect as if it had been signed by the requisite number of Directors as hereinbefore enacted."
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had taken an opportunity of making inquiries upon this subject, and he had been assured that no delay had occurred in consequence of the signatures of the Directors being required to documents sent from the Board of Control. With regard to the instance referred to by the noble Earl, he knew nothing of the facts; but he did not apprehend it would be necessary to adopt the proviso in order to meet a case which might possibly never occur, and which, if it did occur, could not be discovered until long after.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, if this provision were not adopted, it would be absolutely necessary for the Board of Control to give most stringent directions to the Court of Directors that in every case where a letter was directed to be sent to India, the day should be signified on which the letter so sent to them was signed and forwarded. But the Board of Control had no power to compel the Directors to put their signatures to a letter unless they went to the Court of Queen's Bench, which would involve a delay of several months.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEagreed with the noble Earl in the opinion that it would be advantageous that the Board of Control should have the power of sending out a letter in the event of its not obtaining the requisite number of signatures within a prescribed period; such seemed to be the common sense view of the question, but, at the same time, he did not think that the
1430
proviso could meet such a case as that referred to; because it appeared the noble Earl was not aware of the letter not having been sent until he had left the Board of Control.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, the omission was a grievous violation of the law, and of the intentions of Parliament. The Directors were bound to obey the orders of the Board of Control; but if they did not obey, power should be taken to compel them. If his proviso were rejected, he hoped the signature of the Directors would be made imperative, because in that case, if a letter were not signed and transmitted, it would be a misdemeanour in the eye of the law, and punishable as such.
EARL GRANVILLEthought, that it would almost be better to do away with the Court of Directors, than to adopt such a provision. Such a provision would have the effect of casting discredit on the Court of Directors, just at the moment when such vast power was to be again entrusted to their hands.
The DUKE of ARGYLLthought so too; but he could not apprehend such a case likely to occur again. Perhaps the case would be met by the 33rd clause, which provided that when the Directors had any doubt as to the forwarding of a despatch, the Judges were to be consulted.
LORD BROUGHTONsaid, he could state from experience that despatches were now and then detained by the Court of Directors; but a mandamus was hardly ever resorted to; for if resorted to a great deal of time would be taken up. Such a provision I would do no harm to the Court of Directors, and might do a great deal of good to the service.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he gave the Directors a week to sign, which surely could not be considered peremptory; and if they did not sign at the end of that time the Board of Control ought to have the power.
LORD BROUGHTONsaid, the meaning of the Act of Parliament undoubtedly was, that the Board of Control should be absolute. The proposal was a very simple one, and in his opinion it would be effectual.
The DUKE of ARGYLLconsidered that the proviso was not necessary.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that it had been stated by the noble Earl, that in one case a despatch of considerable importance, which had been sent to the Court of Directors to be signed and transmitted, had not been forwarded at all; but it was clear that

1431
the present proposal of the noble Earl would not meet such a case as that, for it would not be known that the letter had not been sent.
The DUKE of ARGYLLthought that the proviso was altogether unnecessary; but, at the same time, as he did not see that any harm could arise from accepting it, he should not oppose its insertion. He would suggest, however, to the noble Earl, that the signature of the Secretary of the Board of Control was not known or recognised in India as possessing any authority, and that perhaps it would be advisable to substitute for the signature of the Secretary of the Board of Control that of the Secretary of the Court of Directors.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that the Board of Control had no power over the Secretary of the Court of Directors, and that it would decidedly he preferable to give the power of signing a despatch to the Secretary of the Board of Control.
Proviso inserted. Clause agreed to.
On Clause 3 (Her Majesty to appoint Three of the first Directors for Two, Four, and Six Years. Directors appointed by Her Majesty to be Persons who shall have served Ten Years in India),
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHmoved to "omit the words 'before the said second Wednesday in April,' and insert 'after the last Wednesday in the month of March.'" His object was to withhold any information as to the Government nominees until the whole of the elected fifteen had been appointed. He trusted that Government, when carrying out this clause, would bear in mind that which he had in view when he proposed a Council for Indian affairs, namely, the providing of adequate representations for all the Presidencies, and as far as possible for all the departments of the Presidencies in the Court of Directors, so that there should always be one person in the Court of Directors to whom the Indian Minister could resort for information upon any subject. His Amendment would work in that direction, as the Government, being in possession of the elected list, if they found Bombay, for instance, unrepresented, might supply the deficiency by the selection of a proper nominee. He thought, also, that Government should select among their nominees one temperate, judicious military officer of high standing in India, who should give advice that would be received with deference on subjects connected with the rules and regulations of the Indian army. He could as-
1432
sure the House that he had known the greatest mischief to occur in consequence of the injudicious decisions of a civilian court. He might mention the half batta case in the army of Bengal, which rankled in the breasts of the officers to this day, and of which the late Duke of Wellington complained bitterly. He had himself known cases in which regiments had been driven to the brink of mutiny through injudicious orders as to their allowances. He could assure the House that it was not safe to deal with military allowances, without a perfect knowledge of the feelings of the army, and without a consideration of its right. For these reasons he trusted that the Government would place as one of their nominees in the Court of Directors a military officer in whom they could confide, for the Board of Control were, generally, not particularly well informed as to he feelings of the army in India.
EARL GRANVILLEsuggested that the proposal, if put into the shape of an Amendment, would be more in order upon a subsequent clause.
LORD BROUGHTONsaid, it was the duty of the President of the Board of Control to ask the opinion of the Secretary at War or of the Commander in Chief upon every subject connected with military discipline or the pay of troops in India. If he did not do so, he neglected his duty. He did not see any objection to a military man being among the nominees of the Government in the Court of Directors. Whilst on his legs he might as well correct a statement made in the evidence given before the Committee on Indian Territories by a gentleman of great weight, and who now held high office. In the evidence given by Sir Charles Trevelyan, he stated, with reference to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough) and himself, that they bad stated that the President of the Board of Control decided everything himself—matters of state and government of all kinds in India; and he added, "It is not safe that one man should be trusted with so much power." This was true if the fact were, so; but Sir Charles Trevelyan might have seen, if he had taken the trouble to look into his (Lord Broughton's) evidence given before the Salaries Committee, that he held himself responsible as President of the Board of Control for whatever was done in Indian administration during the time he held that office; but he stated, "the orders to the Government of India were

1433
given upon the responsibility of the President of the Board of Control as the organ of the Government." The words, "as the organ of the Government," made the whole difference. Never, during the many years he was President of the Board of Control, had he signed any secret despatch without consulting the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State, more particularly connected with India, or, if it was one of very great importance, the whole Cabinet. So that, in fact, though the President of the Board of Control was the responsible person, he never could act, and never ought to net, except as the organ of the Government.
EARL GRANVILLEthought the evidence of Sir Charles Trevelyan referred not to his noble Friend (Lord Broughton), but to the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellen-borough).
LORD BROUGHTONsaid, the evidence of Sir Charles Trevelyan certainly referred to him.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, the fact was perfectly true, but it was unnecessary to go into any explanations upon the subject.
Amendment negatived.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH, in reference to the latter part of the clause, proposed that the whole of the six nominated Directors should be appointed at once instead of only three in the first instance. It had been stated, as a reason why the Crown should appoint only three Directors at first, that there might not be six retired Indian servants of sufficient eminence to be found. But surely with 300 pro-consuls, as they had been called, 1,200 retired officers in this country, he conceived it would not be difficult to find six persons perfectly competent in all respects to form part of the Court of Directors. He could himself easily select six, from Bengal and Agra, eminently qualified for the purpose, and men in whom the whole of India would have confidence. He conceived that if the Government desired to make this a really efficient measure, they would at once nominate the whole six, instead of confining themselves to three. They would find no difficulty whatever in obtaining the services of gentlemen qualified in every respect for the duty.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, Her Majesty's Government could not assent to the suggestion. It was their desire not only to get the very best men, but men who had most recently returned from India, full of
1434
knowledge on subjects connected with it and who had, he might say, the latest in formation upon them.
Amendment withdrawn.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHproposed that the length of service required from the nominees of the Crown, in order to entitle them to enter the Direction, should be not ten years, but some shorter period. Such a length of service would disqualify Governors of Presidencies, who seldom held office for such a term, but whose information and experience would be of the greatest value.
EARL GRANVILLEadmitted that there was great truth in the observations of the noble Earl, but he feared that such a proposition might open the way to suspicions of political favouritism in the nomination. If there was one thing more important than another in respect to this measure, it was that there should not be the slightest degree of party feeling mixed up with it.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 4 (The present Directors, and the Directors out by rotation, to appoint from their own body fifteen of the first Directors under this Act, five for two years, five for four years, and five for six years).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH, anticipating the bare possibility of the thirty Directors refusing to select the fifteen, in which event the Government of India would be practically in abeyance, proposed an Amendment giving power to the Government to select from the present members of the Court twelve, whom they might deem the most fit to act in the newly constituted Court, and to nominate at once the six which they are entitled to nominate by the fifth clause, on the occurrence of casual vacancies.
EARL GRANVILLEthought the House could hardly anticipate such an event as the Directors disobeying the directions of an Act of Parliament, by which they would be guilty of a misdemeanour.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 5 (Upon the happening of casual vacancies, number of Directors appointed by the Crown to be increased to Six, those not so appointed to be reduced to Twelve), agreed to.
Clause 6 (Vacancies among Directors how to be filled up).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he would once more reiterate his opinion

1435
that the present constituency, by whom the Court of Directors was to be elected, was totally unfit to discharge the duty assigned to it; and he thought it would b a matter of great importance to the public that very large additions should be made to the constituent body. He begged, therefore, to move an Amendment, which all retired officers of the Company civil and military, who should have served twenty years in India, should be added to the present Court of Proprietors. There were now about 1,500 of such retire officers, 250 of whom had already votes in that Court. His Amendment would, therefore, give an addition of 1,250 votes, which would make the constituency about 3,000 and he defied any man to canvass such a constituency in the manner that had hitherto been customary. Such an arrangement would give to the Court of Directors a more Indian character than it had at present, while the Indian constituents would still be in a minority. His object was to infuse new and healthy blood into the elective body.
EARL GRANVILLEdefended the clause as it stood, on the ground that the adoption of the Amendment would make a great change in the present Court of Proprietors, whilst he thought it would very much increase the evil apprehended, by increasing the number of persons to be canvassed.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, their Lordships had it in evidence that the elections at the East India House were—to use n more offensive term—at least more liable to undue influence in the exercise an promise of patronage than almost any other elections. The Government appeared to have adopted the present constituency simply and solely because they found it already in existence. Had they been forming a constituency for the first time, the last thing they would have thought of would have been the forming such a one as the present. The object of the noble Earl's Amendment was to give a more intelligent constituency; and, in the next place, to put an end to the exercise of patronage at those elections; and he believed that if there was an infusion of new blood into the constituency, you would create a more intelligent body, and get rid of the undue ways in which patronage was now exercised. Besides the addition to the constituency suggested by the noble Earl, he thought a power of voting in the election of Directors might be given to
1436
proprietors resident in India. On this subject he had put a few questions to the intelligent and able gentleman who was now secretary to the East India Company. He had asked Mr. Melvin—
"Should you see any practical objection, taking into account the rapid communication now between India and Europe, and taking into account also the length of time at which the election of a Director takes place after his first candidateship, to allowing to qualified proprietors in India the same privilege of voting by power of attorney that is exercised by residents in the north of Scotland or the west of Ireland, or any other part of our European dominions?"
Mr. Melvill's first answer was—
"We have already felt some inconvenience. I know a case in which a dead man has been polled; and I fear we should find many cases of that kind."
Subsequently, however, that gentleman had confessed that he did not see any objection in principle, merely on account of non-residence in Europe. Then he had asked Mr. Melvin—
"Do not you think that if the obvious difficulties of ascertaining the right of voting could be overcome, a proprietor of East India Stock in India has as just a claim to vote for a Director of the East India Company as a proprietor of stock in England?"
To which Mr. Melvill's reply was—
"If we were forming a new body to elect, I think so."
He (Lord Monteagle) thought there was an injustice in excluding persons in India who were qualified to vote, and who, if in England, would have been allowed to do so. Mr. Melvin said, he should think so too "if we were forming a new body to elect;" but the fact was you were now doing so, and were constituting a new body for the government of India, and consequently on the authority of Mr. Melvill, Indian voters ought justly to be admitted.
The EARL of HARROWBYsaid, the radical defect of the present system was that the Court of Proprietors had no means of knowing the merits of the persons whom they were to elect. He thought it of the highest importance that this constituency should be animated by the infusion of a little new blood into it, and could see no objection to the addition of these persons, as proposed by the noble Earl. There was nothing to be said in favour of the constituency as at present constituted.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that notwithstanding what had been said by the noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) as to the character of the elections at the India House, there

1437
was the clearest evidence that malpractices there had not been the rule, though suspicion might have attached to them in some cases. As to conferring the privilege of voting upon proprietors resident in India, he thought the evidence of Mr. Melvin was anything but conclusive in favour of that proposal. That gentleman said, in answer to the noble Lord—
"I think the great object of any constituent body for the election of the Directors is to provide as good an instrument as possible for the government of India, and for the promotion of the happiness of the people of that country. As I said before, I do not think that any system of election, or any extension of the present franchise, would provide for that object better than the present."
He (Earl Granville) thought, therefore, that he had got Mr. Melvin on his side of the argument. With regard to the alleged ignorance of the Court of Proprietors as to the merits of those whom they were called upon to elect as Directors, he believed that if the noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) possessed India Stock, and were called upon to vote, he would make it his business to obtain accurate information upon the subject; and he thought as much knowledge of persons qualified for the office was to be had in London as could be gained by the personal knowledge of a collector, or an officer who had passed twenty years in some retired spot in India, where he was not likely to obtain information. It was impossible to deny that, under the working of the present system, very distinguished men had been elected to seats in the Board of Directors.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that Government was to come out next year as great reformers of the constituency at home, and yet on this occasion they refused to add to the constituency by whom the Court of Directors was elected those who could not fail to be a very superior class of voters.
LORD ELPHINSTONEconfessed he should view with considerable regret the adoption of any proposal to give votes to persons residing in India, because it would lead to a system of canvass in that country most detrimental to the Company's service.
The DUKE of ARGYLLsaid, the basis of the Bill was that it created no new constituency at all, but that it proposed to carry on the government of India through the means by which it had been carried on for the last twenty years, in trust for the Crown, and under the control of the Crown. The Government were certainly adding to the Board of Directors an element not
1438
elected by the proprietors, but they were not altering the constituency. He considered the Amendment inconsistent with the object of the Bill, which was to vest the government of India in the East India Company.
LORD BEAUMONTdid not think the noble Duke had mended the matter. So far as he was concerned, he had rather convinced hint of the necessity for the Amendment than otherwise. He would, indeed, rather they should get rid of the existing constituency entirely; for as the East India Company had ceased to be a trading Company, it was absurd to make the possession of stock a qualification for voting. It was true that the object of the Bill was to vest the Government of India in the East India Company; but he imagined the object was to ameliorate and amend the government of India with a view to the advantage of India, and not with a view to the advantage of any body of persons in this country; and surely they were not to be precluded from attempting to amend the constitution of the Company, so as virtually to amend the government of India and to do good to India itself. He supported the Amendment, in the hope that there would be some improvement of the constituency.
The DUKE of ARGYLLbegged to remark that he had stated it as a fact, and not as an opinion of his own, that the Bill proposed at present to continue the government in the hands of the East India Company.
The EARL of HARROWBYcould not see the advantage of having London merchants and bankers engaged in settling the ryotwar system in India. They were very respectable gentlemen, no doubt, but they were not to be taken as judges in Indian matters; and the proprietors of India Stock had as little necessary connexion with India as the proprietors of Bank Stock.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH said, that whatever might formerly have been his opinion, further experience had satisfied him that it might be inconsistent with the public interests that the commercial element should prevail to any very great extent in the Direction, as much public inconvenience might be occasioned by persons engaged in commerce having previous knowledge of fiscal changes in India. When in India he proposed, and assumed that the proposition would be acceded to by the Court of Directory that no money should be advanced on the hypothecation of goods

1439
after a certain time; but, from the violent pertinacity with which the Court of Directors adhered to that pernicious system, he supposed that there was too much of the commercial element in the Court, and that there must have been persons there interested in the continuance of the abuse. He was in favour of adding a considerable number of persons cognisant of India to the present constituency; and he might here mention a circumstance communicated to him by the senior clerk of the Board of Control, when he (the Earl of Ellenborough) was first appointed to that department. Two gentlemen in the City were canvassing for the office of Director, and both applied to him as President of the Board of Control. He asked the clerk what was usually done in such a case, and the clerk replied, "I will tell you what used to be done in former times. It was an understood thing in the time of Mr. Dundas that the Government and all their principal supporters bought votes for the election of Directors; and Mr. Dundas had at his disposal 300 votes, and he elected the whole Court." That was the case in those good times, and there would be no difficulty in doing the same thing now, for 50 votes in the hands of the Government might enable them to turn the election. He therefore thought it advisable to extend the constituency largely, by adding to it independent men, over whom the Government had no control.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEsaid, the existing constituency had one merit, and that was, it contained within itself the seeds of its own utter extinction. The time must come when the East India Proprietary would expire, and then the creation of some other machinery for the government of India would be forced on the consideration of the Government.
LORD BROUGHTONwas satisfied that a quorum ought to be fixed for the Court of Proprietors; for at present a few discontented proprietors had the privilege of meeting and abusing the Government, Directors, and everybody else. They ventilated their arguments in vacuo, for frequently very long debates were carried on with only five or ten proprietors present, or, when the Court was very full indeed, fifteen. The alteration of the constituency, however, was a large question, and not consistent with the basis on which the Bill was founded.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, the account given by the noble Lord of
1440
what took place in the Court of Proprietors might be very correct; but how could he know anything about the matter? Surely, the noble Lord never read the debates there!
Amendment withdrawn. Clause agreed to.
Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 (Six of the Directors not appointed by the Crown to be persons who shall have served ten years in India).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, it never could be intended that this clause was to pass as it stood. The six Directors to be nominated by the Crown were to have had ten years' service either under the Crown or the Government of India; but here all that was required was that the six Directors should have resided in India. There was no security taken that they should have had any Indian experience or knowledge, and, for aught they knew, the six Directors might have been indigo planers or opium dealers; the consequence would be, that instead of the Government partaking of an Indian, it would be invested with a commercial character. He should move an Amendment to the effect, that all classes of the Directors should be obliged to show that they had served for ten years in India, either under the Company or the Government.
EARL GRANVILLEshould be sorry to enact anything that would prevent the appointment of six Directors who had been engaged in mercantile matters, or had been the owners of shipping.
Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to.
Clauses 10, 11, and 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 (Directors before acting to take the oath herein named).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, the clause was very curiously worded, and contained a very curious oath. The person who drew up the clause had done it in so slovenly a way that he had omitted the word "emolument" in the second part of the oath, though it was inserted in the first; therefore the Director took an oath that he would accept no "emolument," but he took no oath that he had no "promise of emolument." The person who drew the Bill had further done it so carelessly that this clause stood with the words "said Company," without any reference to any Company whatever. Whenever he saw a lawyer using a great number of little words, he knew the meaning was that they should be of no effect. The Director should

1441
swear that he had not taken "money or money's worth," and these were the words; that ought to be inserted. There were many different ways in which bribery could be effected—such as reducing the price of articles furnished to a sum much below their real value. In the last part of the oath the Director swore he would be "indifferent and equal to all manner of persons." Why, he violated that oath every time he gave away a cadetship! For what purpose did he take office? To do exactly the reverse of that which he swore he would do. Instead of that oath, therefore, he proposed the following, which would much more clearly state what the Directors ought, and ought not, to do. He proposed, then, to omit the oath down to "understanding," and to insert the following words:—
"I solemnly swear that I will be faithful to Her Majesty Queen Victoria, and will, to the best of my ability, perform the duty assigned to me as a Director of the East India Company in the administration of the government of India in trust for the Crown. I further swear that I have not entered into any engagement or understanding with respect to the nomination of any person to any appointment in my patronage, or in that of the Court of Directors, for the purpose of obtaining any vote, or any aid, or support, at my election as a Director of the East India Company, and that I am free in honour to dispose of every part of such patronage as I may think fit. I also swear that I will not derive, or seek to derive, any advantage in money or money's worth from the disposal of such patronage."
Why should they swear to do their duty to a Company which did not exist? No honest man could object to take this oath; and as to money or money's worth, if the Directors really meant what they swore in regard to patronage, they could not hesitate in taking it in the form he proposed.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he had that feeling about oaths of this kind, that, personally, he should not be sorry to see the oath in question omitted altogether; but, considering the high functionaries who were still called on to take oaths, such as Judges and others, he did not think it would be right to leave it out in the present case. With respect to the noble Lord's observations on the nature of the oath, he must say he thought there was some strength in the first part of them, and his own form of oath, unlike all other general oaths, was especially and cunningly devised to meet every sort of malpractice on the part of the Directors. But, however disposed he might be to accept the amended oath, he thought, if their Lordships
1442
accepted it, after the noble Earl's speech, they would, in the opinion of the public, convey a suspicion and an expression of belief that the Directors were utterly unworthy of confidence. He, therefore, felt it to be his duty to call on their Lordships to resist the change.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHreplied, that a certain degree of suspicion must be attached to all persons called on to take oaths, or why were they asked to take them at all? Their Lordships were obliged to take an oath at that table; the Judges and all persons filling great public offices were obliged to do the same; and, in fact, there was a great and just Parliamentary suspicion attaching to all persons called on to take an oath in the exercise of their public functions. He thought they should distinctly impress on those gentlemen an understanding of the character in which they were called on to conduct the administration intrusted to them, and that they should be made to comprehend clearly they were only the trustees of the Crown.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the Government would reconsider the oath before the third reading; but, at the same time, he wished to disclaim, on the part of the Government, any feeling of suspicion with respect to the Directors.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHwas glad to accept the noble Lord's promise. He had no desire but to obtain an explicit declaration from the Directors that they were only the trustees of the Crown.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 14 to 20 agreed to.
Clause 21 (So much of 3 & 4 Will. IV. as provides that the fourth ordinary member of the Council shall not sit or vote, except at meetings for making laws and regulations, repealed).
LORD WYNFORDwas understood to propose an Amendment, but his Lordship was inaudible.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he hoped that the Government would consider the expediency of nominating as fourth ordinary member of Council some youthful English statesman of business habits, and acquainted with the mode of managing affairs in some public department in this country. He hardly knew anything that would add more strength and comfort to the Governor General in his arduous office; for he never saw a country where there was such an absence of all businesslike habits as India, so that it was matter of astonishment to him when he went out there, though he

1443
did not pretend to anything more than some acquaintance with the proceedings at the Board of Control. With great ease, and without any detriment to the public service, he was enabled to effect a saving of one week in the transmission of letters from the Governor General homeward, and of one hour per day in the transaction of business by the Council.
The EARL of ALBEMARLEavailed himself of the opportunity to impress on the Government the necessity of a larger employment of Natives in high official stations in India.
Amendment withdrawn; Clause agreed to.
Clause 22 (Legislative Councillors added to the Council of India, for making Laws and Regulations).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHobserved, that words were not inserted in the clause providing that the appointment of these additional Members from each Presidency should take place from time to time, and moved an Amendment to that effect. There was no such provision mentioned, and therefore he did not know whether Councillors could be removed when once they had been appointed. [Earl GRANVILLE: They are removable.] The clause did not say so. For what period were they appointed, and on what understanding? The ordinary Members of the Council were understood to be appointed for five years; but these additional Members, were, it appeared to him, placed in a totally different position. Were they, he would ask, appointed as they would be by the Governor General, to be removed at the end of his tenure of office, or were they not to be removed until the end of five years? The clause provided—
"That one member of each Presidency, and the Lieutenant Governors for the time being established in the said territories, should be appointed by the Governor of such Presidency and the Lieutenant Governor of such Lieutenant Governorship respectively, from among the persons having been, or being at the time of their appointment, in the civil service of the Company for ten years."
Now, he would ask, could the Lieutenant Governor appoint himself? From the wording of the clause he was sure he could; but, in any case, he was sure he ought, for he would make the best member of the Council. He deprecated the exclusion of military men from the Council. He had felt the inconvenience arising from this exclusion, and had more than once suggested that a military member should be
1444
succeeded by a military man, and a judicial member by a judicial officer. He would, therefore, suggest the omission of certain words in the clause, by which a power would be conferred on the Governor General to nominate military as well as civil members of the Council.
The EARL of ALBEMARLEexpressed a hope there would be no distinction of any class in the Council.
LORD BROUGHTONapproved of the proposition of the noble Earl opposite, but expressed a general distrust of the working of the new Council. As the clause stood, it must mean that the Governor General should be able to choose two Natives, which would lead to all kinds of mistakes and inconveniences. The whole service was opened generally. A Native might enter Haileybury, and might be made member of Council, and if in the course of events, by the death of a Governor General, he should happen to be the senior member of the Council, he might become, pro tempore, Governor General of India. He had great doubts about this Council altogether. He was afraid the working of it would be that we would have a sort of little Parliament in Calcutta, and that the Governor General would lose something of the authority which he thought it was perfectly necessary he should possess. In the eyes of an Oriental, the head of a State was looked on as the source of all power, and more particularly he was regarded as the maker of the laws; and it seemed to him impossible that those who made the laws should not be invested with the sovereign power. Anything which had the tendency to diminish the authority of the Governor General in the eyes of the people of India would be most pernicious, and might go far to deprive us of our Empire. Was it to be supposed these ten or twelve members—["They are fifteen"]—well, then, fifteen members—would meet without discussion or debate, ending in a division, and that this division would not be made public? Nothing was secret in India—it was difficult to keep the most secret matters in the most secret despatches from becoming known; and the noble Earl knew well instances where the most important matters of that kind had been disclosed before they reached this country. Besides, they had a free press in India, and one paper would take the part of a portion of the Council, and say they were right; and another would say they were wrong, and in this way there would be great differences of

1445
opinion created. He must say, he was most apprehensive of this new way of governing India. The Council would become a body for many other purposes than mere legislation. Was it to be the taxing body of India? He thought it must become so. He contended that they should not confer on any one but on the Governor General, through his agents, the power of initiating laws; that the consent of the Governor General should be given before any new laws were proposed, for, in his opinion, it was far better that a veto should be exercised in the first instance than afterwards; and thus they might avoid an antagonism between the Governor General and the Council, which would prove, if not dangerous, at least most inconvenient.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEconcurred very much in the views of the noble Lord who had just sat down, and thought it would be most inexpedient to control the power of the Governor General in legislating for India. He thought, with the noble Lord, that the setting up this Legislative Council would have the effect of impairing the authority of the Governor General, and of establishing that which would appear to be a popular assembly, without any of the essentials of such a body. An experiment such as this would, in a country like India, be attended with a very doubtful result.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHwas inclined to think that by the Bill, as it now stood, the Governor General would retain the power of taxation, not by ordinance, but by Acts passed by the Legislative Council. He thought the noble Baron opposite was mistaken in supposing that the senior Member for the new Council could become Governor General pro tem., for that office could only be held by an ordinary Member of the Council. It was, however, a question which should be well considered by Her Majesty's Government.
LORD BROUGHTON: But a Native may be a Member of the ordinary Council.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHdid not consider that was the case.
LORD MONTEAGLEcontended, a Native might become a Member of the ordinary Council, if he entered the service in the ordinary manner by admission at Haileybury College.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHobjected to the preference given to civil servants over military; and in the case of the two Legislative Councillors to be appointed by the Governor General under this clause,
1446
moved the omission of the qualifying word "civil," in order to make servants of the Company, whether civil or military, eligible for the appointment.
Amendment agreed to. Word struck out accordingly.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 23 (Appointment of Vice-President of Council to preside at meetings in absence of Governor General).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHproposed to extend the purpose of the clause by allowing the senior ordinary Member of the Council to preside therein in case of the absence of the Vice-President.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 24 agreed to.
Clause 25 (No Law or Regulation of Governor General in Council invalid by reason of the same affecting any Prerogative of the Crown) postponed.
Clause 26 (Time for Meeting of Council with new Legislative Councillors to be fixed by Governor General by Proclamation).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHmoved the addition of the following proviso:—
"Provided further, that nothing hereinbefore contained shall affect the power now vested in the Governor General in Council, as such Council was constituted by the Act 3 & 4 Will. IV. c. 85, to authorise the Governor General alone, when absent from the Council in any part of India, to exercise all or any of the powers which might be exercised by the Governor General in Council, except the power of making laws and regulations, and the notification thereof by the said Council shall have the same force as any law or regulation to that effect would have had if this Act had not been passed."
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the Government could not consent to the noble Earl's Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 27 to 29 agreed to.
On Clause 30 (Commander in Chief of Her Majesty's Forces to be Commander in Chief of the Company's Forces),
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHmoved the addition of the following words:—
"And such Commander in Chief of Her Majesty's, and of all the Company's forces in India, shall, ex officio, be an extraordinary Member of the Council of India, and such Commanders in Chief in any Presidency shall be, ex officio, Members respectively of the Councils of such Presidencies."
The noble Earl said it would not do to leave it to the Court of Directors to separate the Commander in Chief from the civil govern-

1447
ment, as such separation was injurious to the public service, and dangerous to the State.
LORD BROUGHTONthought it better that the being Members of the Councils, should be the natural instead of the legal consequence of being Commanders in Chief.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 31 and 32 agreed to.
On Clause 33 (Salary of President of the Board of Control).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHexpressed his gratification at the provision by which the President of the Board of Control was placed in point of salary on a level with the Secretaries of State. He would express a hope, however, that the Gentleman at the head of the Board of Control, whoever he might be, would not derive any advantage from this increase of salary, for the very best way of spending it would be by receiving at his table on their return from India all the distinguished officers who had quitted that country. In this way the President of the Board might very easily spend the additional 1,500 l. a year he would receive, and in return he would derive information which he could never obtain from papers, and which would be of the greastest possible value to him in the conduct of public business.
LORD BROUGHTONdoubted the expediency of having in Parliament only one of the Secretaries to the Board of Control. Neither did he think that the appointment of a permanent Secretary would be a good plan. This permanent Secretary, let him be whom he might, would enter office with certain strong feelings or prejudices. If he had belonged to one branch of the service, he would always give his opinion in favour of that service; if he had been at Bengal, he would stand up always for the interests of Bengal; if at Bombay, for the interests of Bombay; and if at Madras, for those of Madras. Moreover, such an official would be placed in an invidious position with respect to clerks of long standing at the Board, many of whom were men as intelligent and as capable of giving advice to the President of the Board as any men who could be found. The appointment of a permanent Secretary would be only adding to the embarrassment of the President of the Board of Control, and producing jealousy in the staff.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHexpressed some apprehensions as to the expediency of such an appointment. He was
1448
quite sure from what he knew of the Board of Control, that the business of the department would go on perfectly well without an officer so appointed.
EARL GRANVILLEdefended the provision, and said it had been found extremely desirable, in cases of changes of Administration, to have some person at hand who could inform the Board of all the details of the business on hand.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 34 (Yearly allowances to Chairman, Deputy Chairman, and Directors, instead of those now payable under by-laws) agreed to.
Clause 35 (Regulating the Salaries of) officers in India).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHcomplained of the reduction in the salary of the Commander in Chief, whose office was he only great prize in the Army, but who now could not save more than 1,500 l. or 2,000 l. a year.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 36 (Provisions of 3 & 4 Will. IV., respecting Admission of Students to Haileybury College repealed, and existing Rights, of Patronage of Appointments to cease).
EARL GRANVILLEproposed after the word "the," line 10, to insert the words "appointment of persons in the civil service of the Company and the."
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, if it was bought upon a mere examination of persons from all parts of the country to secure efficiency for the service, they would very soon find the effect of the "cramming" in the brilliancy of the person examined, and his incompetency to fill the office to which he was appointed. The system proposed would lead to nothing but a lowering of the standard of those appointed to the service.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble Lord's objection seemed to be that under he Bill any clever scamp would be enabled, by "cramming," to pass the requisite examination. He thought, however, it would be perfectly disgraceful to the college, if, in nineteen cases out of twenty, the students there were not able to beat out of the field a person who had not the advantage of a special education like that given there. The stimulus applied in this way to the college would, he anticipated, be very beneficial.
Amendment withdrawn.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 37 agreed to.
On Clause 38 (Board of Control to make

1449
Regulations concerning Examinations, Admissions, and Appointments, to Haileybury College, and concerning Examinations for Admission to the Military Seminary at Addiscombe. Regulations to be laid before Parliament),
The EARL of ALBEMARLEsuggested that the Government should make some alteration in the clauses relative to the examination of students, with the view of securing the free admission of Natives into the service.
Clause agreed to.
LORD MONTEAGLE, adverting to the circumstance that, notwithstanding the clause introduced into the last Act renewing the Company's Charter, declaring the eligibility of Natives to the covenanted service, not one had ever been admitted, proposed a clause, declaring that no natural-born subject of Her Majesty should, by reason of religion, or colour, or place of birth, be incapable of holding office and employment under the Company, whether In the covenanted or uncovenanted service, if this clause should not be inserted in the Bill, the Company would treat the wishes and intentions of the Government in this respect as mere moonshine. He begged to give notice that he would propose this clause again on the third reading, in order that his proposal might stand recorded on the Journals.
EARL GRANVILLEobserved, that the aptitude of Natives for certain departments of the service had been satisfactorily established before the India, Committee. If, therefore, he objected to the noble Lord's clause it was not from any doubt that Natives of India would be found fully qualified to fill the offices referred to in it. The noble Lord's clause, however, was directed against an imaginary evil. The reason why Natives had not been employed in the civil service was this:—The clause in the existing Act was merely permissive, and the civil service being entirely dependent on nomination, it had happened that no Director had nominated a Native. Had a Native been nominated, he must have been employed. The present Bill abolished the system of nomination, and any Native who exhibited equal talent with Englishmen at the examination would obtain employment.
Clause negatived.
Clause 39 to 43, inclusive, agreed to.
Clause 44 (Manufacture and Sale of Salt by the East India Company to cease and determine).
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHmoved that the clause be rejected, though he thought that the Motion might have been made more properly by one of Her Majesty's Ministers, as the clause formed no part of their original proposition. At the same time, he was ready to move its rejection, because he believed it would operate most injuriously, and because it constituted a most unwarrantable interference with the financial arrangements of India. This interference had been proposed not for the advantage of the people of India, but for the benefit of a small number of persons employed in this country in the manufacture of salt, and the whole of the Indian revenue derived from salt would be imperilled if the clause passed into law. The clause established no regulations which would facilitate the collection of the tax, and, in order to raise the duty on salt, it would be necessary, if the clause passed, to employ an army of excisemen in India. If smuggling were practised, as it certainly would be, the price of the article would be so reduced that, after all, the importer would not obtain that advantage which he anticipated. There had been in preceding years an increase of consumption and a large reduction of price; but it must be remembered that the revenue in India did not rise with the same elasticity as the revenue in this country. While their Lordships were creating what was described as a better Government for India, and enlarging the Legislative Council—while they were endeavouring to give consistency and dignity to the Government of India—it was not right to interfere for the first time in a matter strictly of internal regulation, and it was not fitting or seemly, for the purpose of giving a small additional profit to certain traders in England at the expense of India, to imperil the revenue of that country. It was better to treat India as a perfectly independent country in matters of finance. In India there were not the means of commuting taxation, as the Natives felt the greatest indisposition to pay any new tax, and for these reasons he moved that the clause be expunged.
The EARL of ALBERMARLEconcurred in what had fallen from the noble Earl as to the impolicy of interference with local taxation, but, at the same time, expressed his disappointment that this hateful monopoly, which affected the health of the people, and caused, from the tax imposed, extreme misery and distress among the people of India, was to continue. The noble Earl here referred to certain statis-

1451
tical papers for the purpose of showing how greatly the tax on salt checked the consumption. He concluded by observing that this was a subject on which he felt the deepest interest, and he still hoped that the Government in India might have instructions from the Home Government to alleviate this most distressing and grievous tax.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause negatived.
Clause 45 agreed to.
The report of the Amendment to be received To-morrow.
House adjourned till To-morrow.