Lords Sitting of 28 April 1853

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—Several Lords.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a South Sea and other Annuities Commutation.
3a Clergy Reserves (Canada).

ADDRESS OF CONGRATULATION—HER MAJESTY'S REPLY.
The Queen's Answer to the Address of Congratulation on the Birth of another Prince—reported.
"I thank you for your loyal and dutiful Address. The interest which you have expressed in My Domestic Happiness is very gratifying to Me."

CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
Moved—That the Bill be now read 3a.
The EARL of WICKLOWsaid, that he wished to ask a question, being very anxious to obtain some information respecting the position in which the country would stand after this Bill had received their Lordships' sanction. When this Bill was introduced into the House of Commons, it contained three clauses, of which one, the third clause, repealed the guarantee clause of the Act of 1840, and in that shape was read a second time by that House. But, on going into Committee, the noble Lord who had charge of the measure (Lord John Russell), stated he had made the discovery that there was a contract implied with regard to that clause, which had been introduced into the Act by Sir Robert Peel, in order to satisfy the scruples of the Archbishop of Canterbury and his right rev. Brethren; and, that, therefore, he felt it to be his duty to omit the third clause of the Bill, which would have repealed it. The consequence was, that some of the best supporters of the Government in the House of Commons objected to proceeding—actually divided the House upon it; and, as the noble Earl opposite stated the other night, the Bill was carried by the Government against the opinion of their own friends, and by the assistance of the Conservative party. One hon. Gentleman in the House of Commons declared that he considered the removal of that clause so unjust to the people of England, that, on the third reading he would move its reinsertion. But when the time for the third reading arrived, the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) told the House that he had made another discovery—and, that, on consulting the law officers of the Crown, he was informed that the clause would, under this Bill, be altogether inoperative. The question was then put to his Lordship, whether he had taken the regular written opinion of the law officers of the Crown on this subject? and he replied, No, he had not; but he had ascertained that that was their opinion in the course of a conversation with those learned Gentlemen. Under these circumstances, the hon. Member who had given notice of his intention to move the reinsertion of the third clause, with-

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drew his Motion, and the Bill came before their Lordships with the third clause omitted accordingly. The other night, however, the noble Duke (the Duke of Newcastle) stated to their Lordships that he considered the clause in the Act continued in force as much as ever. Now, if this were so, there was some discrepancy between the statement of the noble Duke and that of the noble Lord in the other House. The sum of money at issue was certainly but a very small one. It was only 7,700 l. for the clergy of the Church of England, and 1,580 l. for the clergy of the Church of Scotland in the colony; but what he wanted to know was this—if the Bill were now read a third time, would the Consolidated Fund of this country be responsible for making good any deficiency in the reserves to that extent, or would it not? He should like to have the opinion of the Judges on that point, for he was inclined to believe, that, under the Bill in its present shape, the people of this country were responsible for the payment of the deficiency, if it occurred.
LORD REDESDALEwished to know, before the Bill was passed, if the Government had any objection to introduce a clause into the Bill for placing the rights and dues of the Church of Rome in Canada on the same footing, as regarded the protection afforded by the Act of 1840, that, under this Bill, the Protestant clergy reserves were to be placed upon? He must say he should have been glad to see a clause to that effect introduced into the measure; but he by no means desired to make the question a party one. Supposing, however, that, in the next session of the Legislature of Canada, a proposition were made, under the responsibility of the Government of Canada—and it was not impossible for such a proposition to be made—for devoting the clergy reserves of the Protestant Church to secular purposes, it appeared to him that the best means of meeting that proposition by those who were opposed to it would be to desire that the same provisions should be extended to the dues and rights of the Church of Rome, and that those dues and rights should stand in the same position as the clergy reserves of the Protestant Church, inasmuch as the tithes were taken from the Protestant Church on the ground that the clergy reserves would supply the place of those tithes. If, then, the question of secularising the clergy reserves were dealt with by the Canadian Legislature, the question should be treated as one which
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affected the rights and dues of the other Sects as Well.
The DUKE of NEWCASTLE: I think I shall be able to satisfy the noble Earl (the Earl of Wicklow) that he is under some misconception with respect to what fell from my noble Friend in another place, and that there was no real discrepancy between his sentiments upon the third reading of the Bill, and the remarks which fell from me on a former occasion in your Lordships' House, on the second reading of the Bill. I think that the noble Earl has misunderstood what was said with respect to the clause in the Act of 1840, believing it to be applicable to the clause omitted from the present Bill in the other House. The statement which I made upon the second reading, and which I still maintain, was perfectly correct, and I will now repeat it. I said that the guarantee clause introduced in the Act of 1840 would have precisely the same effect and the same power, so far as legislation was concerned, after, as it had prior, to the passing of this Bill, except, of course, so far as there may be an impression in the minds of any individual Members of your Lordships' House that there may be a greater probability of the secularisation of these reserves by the Legislature of Canada than there would be by the Imperial Parliament. The omitted clause was introduced into the Bill by me, under the apprehension, which now seems to be entertained by many, that when the guarantee clause was originally introduced in the Act of 1840, at the request of the Archbishop of Canterbury, there was no possible chance of the fund falling below the amount specified in that guarantee. It is perfectly clear that such was not the apprehension of the most reverend Prelate at that time, otherwise for what purpose was it introduced? The clause was introduced under the apprehension that under some circumstances, such as the possible mismanagement or deterioration of the property, or some unforeseen accident, the fund might fall below the amount specified as then received. Upon ascertaining that at the time of the introduction of the guarantee, there was that fear entertained, Her Majesty's Government came to the conclusion that it would be wrong by any specific enactment to repeal that guarantee, which, whatever may be the opinions with respect to its coming into effect, was certainly considered at the time a valid guarantee against a sudden

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deficiency; and against that contingency the guarantee will be as effective, without the clause omitted in the other House, as it is at present. And if it should happen, under any circumstances—the clergy reserves remaining upon the same footing as at present, with the single exception that the authority over them will be given to the Legislature of Canada, and will not remain with the Imperial Parliament—if, I repeat, by any circumstance the funds should fall below the specified amount, the guarantee will have the same effect as before the passing of the present Bill, and no other. But according to the opinions of the law officers of the Crown, if these reserves should ever be secularised, then, by removing the condition upon which the guarantee was given, and upon which it rests, undoubtedly the guarantee itself would fall to the ground, and in the event of such secularisation, this country would not be answerable in the shape which the noble Earl has anticipated. In the event, therefore, of the clergy reserves being secularised by the Legislature of Canada, there would, under the guarantee of the Act of 1840, be no security under which the funds of this country would be liable to make up the deficiency; neither would there be any such liability if the same event were to take place under the operation of an Act of the Imperial Parliament. In fact, as to the condition of the guarantee, and as to its objects and results, it remains upon exactly the same footing as before. With respect to the question of the noble Lord (Lord Redesdale), I should object to the introduction of any words into the Bill such as he has recommended, upon several grounds. I think that the object of the Bill, its title, and its enactments, are of such a character that it would not be desirable to introduce into it what I may call "alien matter." There is also a much stronger reason—at any rate, one which has great weight with me. I am most anxious that this Bill should go out in its present form, as a boon to the colony of Canada, conferred upon it by this country at the request of its inhabitants, and as a boon carrying peace to the colony. I should most deeply reject if it were to be hampered by any conditions which might tend to set any one class of religionists against the other; and still more if it should go out to the colony, carrying with it the impression that we thought it necessary to insert in it any security against the free exercise of
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the will and intention of the Canadian Legislature, or that, in order to prevent the secularisation of the estates of the Established Church of England, in Canada, we had thought it expedient to put the rights and dues of the Roman Catholics as a "make-weight" against such a step. I have no wish, however, that the rights and dues of the Roman Catholic Church should stand in any way upon a different footing from that in which other portions of the clergy reserves will stand after the passing of this Bill. It would be inconsistent with the position I have taken in the discussions in this House, and to the principle of the Bill itself, that such should be the case; but I confess that, to my mind, the proposal of the noble Lord would afford no effectual security against the occurrence which he deprecates. I must remind your Lordships that in the discussion upon the Amendment on Monday last, the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) expressed his opinion that the provision requiring certain Acts of the Canadian Parliament to be placed upon the table for a period of thirty days before receiving the assent of the Crown, was one which entailed considerable inconvenience, and was of very little practical advantage. In that opinion of the noble Earl—the result, no doubt, of considerable experience in the Colonial Office—I entirely concur. This provision does not extend merely to the clergy reserves, and the rights and dues of the Roman Catholic Church in Canada, but to a great many enactments upon other subjects dealt with by the Canadian and other Colonial Legislatures; and the result I believe to be that considerable doubt often exists in the Colonial Office as to what Acts come within the operation of this provision and which do not, and I am not certain whether some mistakes have not been made on this point. I think it would be desirable, not merely with respect to the rights and dues of the Roman Catholic Church, but of the clergy reserves, to repeal this provision, so that the Acts of the Canadian Legislature should stand upon the same footing as those of the Legislatures of all other colonies, and that, instead of requiring the Acts to lie for thirty days upon the table of the House, the consent of the Crown should be given upon the responsible advice of the Colonial Office. These being my opinions, I shall certainly endeavour to carry them out by introducing a Bill for that purpose. There are, however, reasons why at this moment I should not like

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to specify any particular time for introducing such a measure.
The EARL of WICKLOWsaid, as he understood the noble Duke, if in consequence of any secularisation either by the Canadian Parliament or the Parliament of this country the sum should fall below the required amount, then the Clause would cease to have effect. That was under the existing law. He did not think they would find a single sentence in the Act to justify that opinion. The language of the Act was, that if at any time the funds should fall below the specified amount from any caase—not merely from secularisation, but from any cause—the Consolidated Fund of this country was liable.
EARL GREYassured his noble Friend that if he thought with him that the guarantee fund would be a burden on the people of this country, he should object to the Bill as much as he did. They had, however, the opinion of the law officers of the Crown that it would not have that effect; and, besides, a portion of the reserves had been sold, and out of the proceeds a sum was actually invested, yielding a sum which was more than sufficient to save this country from being called on to make good any eficiency.
On Question, Resolved in the Affirmative: Bill read 3ª accordingly: Then it was moved, That the Bill do pass; which being objected to; on Question, Resolved in the Affirmative; and Bill passed.
LORD REDESDALEwished to guard himself against being considered as entirely acquiescing in doing away with the provisions of the Act of 1840, because he thought there were certain matters which might be called of Imperial interest, and which ought not to be affected by the present measure.

REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCES BILL.
Amendments reported (according to order).
The LORD CHANCELLORproposed a Clause giving compensation to certain clerks employed in the registering of judgments in the office of the Master of the Crown.
LORD ST. LEONARDSsaid, he wished to correct a misapprehension of what had fallen from him on a former occasion in regard to this Bill. He had been represented as saying that he agreed in the alterations proposed by his noble Friend:—but what he did say was, that neither in that nor the present stage of the Bill did
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he intend to offer any opposition to the measure, but that all his objections remained entirely as before. He objected to what his noble Friend now proposed. When he (Lord St. Leonards) introduced a Bill for the registering of judgments and such like matters, which Bill had worked admirably well, he took care to give to the Master of the Crown Office the new office created under that Bill, and which had turned out a lucrative one. This Bill, which would put the landed interest, to an enormous extent, now proposed to take power to transfer that particular office, which was working exceedingly well, to a new office, and to give out of the Consolidated Fund compensation to the person who now held that office. As that office was a highly productive one, it would require a great many thousands to satisfy the holder in the way of compensation. His noble and learned Friend now proposed that the clerks in that office should have compensation. He (Lord St. Leonards) objected to such a proposal. What possible claim could a common clerk have for the loss of an office? He was removable at an hour's notice, and was not afterwards prevented from following his occupation as a clerk elsewhere.
Clause agreed to; further Amendments made; and Bill to be read 3ª on Monday next.

TRANSPORTATION.
EARL GREYrose to ask a question of the First Lord of the Treasury, of which he had given him notice. In doing so, he must say a few words to explain its object. He might remind their Lordships that in 1846 the difficulties which had arisen from the system then in force as to the transportation of offenders had become so serious, that it was absolutely necessary to make some change in the mode of carrying sentences of that kind into effect. As soon as the Administration of Lord John Russell was formed, this subject was taken into consideration. After much inquiry and deliberation, an extensive change in the former system was determined upon; and as soon as it had been decided on, papers containing a full explanation of the measures intended to be adopted were laid upon the table of their Lordships' House in the beginning of 1847. Much alarm was excited by the announcement of these measures in their Lordships' House; although the changes which had been made did not extend to any discontinuance of the ancient practice of ultimately removing from this

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country offenders sentenced to transportation. At the instance of a noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham) a Committee of their Lordships' House was appointed to inquire into the subject. That Committee obtained a great deal of most valuable information, and came to a conclusion very strongly against the abolition of the system of transporting offenders. In consequence of the report of that Committee, and of additional information obtained from the Colonies, the scheme originally determined upon was to a certain degree modified, and since that time it had continued in force, as it was then arranged. It was not necessary for him to describe the plan which was thus adopted: he would only say that the principle of that scheme was this—that offenders were to be subjected to punishment in this country, first to separate confinement, and then to employment on the public works; and ultimately they were removed to the colony on tickets of leave. That system had worked very successfully—the strict restraints to which convicts were subject having been found to have the best effects in securing their good conduct. Some few months ago it was announced, in that and the other House of Parliament, that the removal of convicts with tickets of leave to Van Diemen's Land was to cease altogether, and that even with regard to Western Australia a small number only of convicts was to be sent out. Under the system of punishment which had been for five years in force, there was a very considerable number of convicts undergoing the first part of that punishment in the penal establishments in this country, who had been sentenced to transportation for various periods; and to those men it had been held out, by rules printed and hung up in their cells, that by a course of good conduct they would entitle themselves at certain periods to be removed to the colonies with tickets of leave. The question, therefore, which he wished to ask was this: whether any and what arrangements had been made for disposing of the convicts now in the penal establishments at Portland, Dartmoor, Gibraltar, and Bermuda, and who, under the regulations in force when they were sent to those establishments, might expect to go to the colonies with tickets of leave; and also how many convicts are still detained in those establishments who, under those regulations, would be already entitled to be removed with tickets of leave? He had only further to add, that the very key-
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stone of all the improvements which had: for some years been adopted in the treatment of convicts had been the keeping faith most rigidly with them, and holding out no expectations of indulgence in consequence of good conduct, which were not to be scrupulously fulfilled. He was now anxious to know how far that rule was adhered to.
The EARL of ABERDEEN: No one knows better than the noble Earl the great difficulties with which this subject is surrounded, and no one has taken more pains than he has to overcome those difficulties. But the question is, how far it is practicable literally to comply with the expectations that have been held out to those convicts, to which the noble Earl has referred. Now, I entirely agree with the noble Earl that it is indispensable to observe good faith with all those to whom we have given reason to expect that the consequence of their good conduct will be their removal to the colonies with tickets of leave; but the fact is, that the sending to the colonies such a number of convicts sentenced to transportation in the way stated in the rules referred to by the noble Earl, is literally impossible; still, though it is not possible to comply literally with the terms of those rules, good faith may still be substantially observed towards them by the diminution of the duration of punishment, under certain regulations, which, although I do not say it might be so welcome as the sending them to the colonies, appears to be all that is practicable under the circumstances. I may state that a system of diminution of the duration of punishment according to the deserts of the individual is now under the consideration of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and I hope will be speedily adopted. I am not about to give any opinion with respect to the principle of adhering to the punishment of transportation. That will be a subject for future consideration and inquiry. In answer to the noble Earl, I may say the number of convicts in the places to which he has referred, who are now entitled to what are called tickets of leave, according to the regulations that have been alluded to, not making allowance for invalids, is about 1,052; and towards those persons undoubtedly, though it will not be possible to send them to the colonies as they expect, their number being so large, some difference of treatment will be observed. The noble Earl has not entered into any consideration of the system which

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is to be pursued hereafter with respect to the treatment of those persons. I agree with him that these establishments have worked remarkably well, and I hope the principle of them will be still more extensively applied hereafter; and, therefore, I do not feel called upon to go further into the subject, but I do think that a discussion in this House, in which the question may be fully inquired into and thoroughly examined, would be essentially useful.
EARL GREY: I wish now to ask this question of the noble Earl—Am I to understand from the noble Earl that the arrangement is to discharge in this country the convicts now in those establishments, who under the existing rules would have been sent abroad? Am I to understand that that is to be the arrangement?
The EARL of ABERDEEN: On certain conditions. The subject is now under the consideration of my noble Friend the Home Secretary, and no decision has yet been come to on the subject.
EARL GREY: My Lords, I must confess I have heard that announcement with considerable surprise, because it is now some months since Parliament was informed that the existing arrangements were to be changed. If you discontinue sending those convicts abroad, you must discharge them at home. Without the authority of Parliament, against the consent of Parliament, and against the recorded opinion given within the last two or three years of this and the other House of Parliament, Her Majesty's Government have taken it upon themselves—I venture to assert, without any sufficient necessity—to repeal the punishment of transportation, which for 200 years it has been the policy of this country to adhere to. I do not mean to go into a discussion of this question at this moment, but I do feel that Parliament and your Lordships have a right to be surprised that before this change was carried into such sudden and violent effect, your Lordships were not made acquainted with the arrangements which were to be substituted for those previously in force. Those changes have been carried into effect in a manner, as appears from the statement of the noble Earl, which has already involved a violation of good faith towards those unhappy men who are now in the penal establishments of this country; because the noble Earl has told us there are upwards of 1,000 men now in those penal establishments
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who, under the regulations printed by the authority of Government and with the sanction of Parliament, and hung up in their cells, have a right, in consequence of their good conduct, to expect from this time to be relieved from penal labour, and who are still subject to the severe coercion which is inflicted upon them in those establishments. My Lords, I say that is an announcement which I, for one, have heard with very great regret.
The EARL of ABERDEEN: The noble Earl is entirely under a mistake. There has been no decision come to on the subject. How does the noble Earl know, until it is decided, whether it will be necessary to come to Parliament or not? I said no such thing. I said the matter was under consideration. The noble Earl already knows the difficulty of forcing convicts upon the colonies; but I have only said that what is possible under the circumstances will be done. I am admitting the principle of keeping faith with those men to the fullest extent that is practicable and consistent with equity and justice; and I say a proposition will be made on the subject, which I hope may prove satisfactory. As yet none has been decided upon, and, therefore, I can give the noble Earl no further answer than that we will endeavour to act upon a principle of fairness and justice towards those persons.
EARL GREY: My Lords, if I have made a mistake, it is the noble Earl himself who is answerable for it. Your Lordships will remember that I asked—"Am I to understand that those men are ultimately to be discharged in this country?" The noble Earl said, "Yes, under certain conditions;" hut, I say, if you have decided to discharge these men, under certain conditions, in this country—I do not deny the legal power you have under the Transportation Act—you have taken upon yourselves virtually and substantially to abolish the punishment of transportation before you have taken taken the opinion of Parliament upon the subject. The noble Earl said I was aware of the impossibility of forcing the colonies to receive convicts; but I will remind the noble Earl, that, according to the latest accounts from Van Diemen's Land which have appeared in the public newspapers, and in the official papers on your Lordships' table, the reluctance to receive convicts up to the latest dates was, that when the last convict ship arrived there, such was the concourse of masters wanting to employ them, that

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it was actually necessary to employ a sentinel to keep order among them, and to have a ballot in order to decide the priority in which they should make their offers to those whom they wished to employ.
LORD CAMPBELLmust say he had heard with the deepest regret, indeed with dismay, the intimation of the noble Earl at the head of the Government, that transportation substantially was no longer the punishment to be awarded to criminals. That was the purport of the intimation they had received that night. He was not in a situation to discuss the question whether or not it was possible to continue the system of transportation. He rose only to express the grief and astonishment he felt at the result announced. It was not for him to say that we should insist upon the colonies receiving convicts against their inclination; but he should have thought the probability was that it would have been for the advantage of the colonists themselves to have received those men after the reformatory discipline they had received in this country after their conviction, and previous to their being expatriated. He could not sufficiently declare to their Lordships what the frightful effects would be that would follow the sudden discharge of that number of convicts. The noble Earl had, in effect, intimated that in a short time there would be a thousand convicts set loose in this country. He (Lord Campbell) had no doubt if those men were sent to the colonies, after the punishment of the silent system, and after they had received religious instruction, and the useful trades they had learnt at home since their conviction, that they would be speedily absorbed in the population, and become useful members of society; but what would be the consequence if they were discharged in this country? Without the possibility of obtaining employment, they would speedily return to their former habits; our streets and highways would soon swarm with robbers; for there was not the slightest possibility of their being restored to society, so as to become useful members of it. A thousand convicts were to be set at liberty immediately, and they were, he presumed, to be speedily followed by another thousand. He believed the number of convicts now under sentence of transportation amounted to 20,000 at least. One thing was certain—that if the course hinted at by the noble Earl (the Earl of Aberdeen) was to be pursued, they would have to increase the number of Criminal Judges. If a necessity had arisen for that
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course on the part of the Government, it was a necessity that was to be deeply deplored. Under the system now substantially abolished, there was a prospect of those men being reformed and restored to society; but the prospect now was that their reformation would be impeded, and that they would become the pests of the community.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, he confessed it was most essential that this question should engage the attention of the Government, and nobody was more glad than he was that his noble Friend (Earl Grey), though out of office, should continue to give his attention to this subject; yet it was one on which their Lordships ought to come to no hasty conclusion. It had been imputed to his noble Friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) that the Government had decided that transportation should be discontinued; but he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) did not understand that the Government had adopted any such principle, and he, for one, clung, as he had done throughout the whole of his life, to the hope which had been entertained by many benevolent and philanthropic men in the last and present generation, that transportation might become the means by which at once the two great objects of legislation in regard to the trentment of criminals might be attained, namely, an adequate punishment for the commission of crime, and the reformation of the criminal. At the same time, their Lordships must be aware that the great wealth and prosperity of the Australian colonies, especially since the recent gold discoveries, had in a measure disqualified them for the transportation of convicts, since they had ceased to be objects of fear and apprehension to criminals, but rather objects of attraction; while, as regarded that important point, their reformation, perhaps there were no places in the world where that object was less likely to be obtained, owing to the temptations abounding, if not to the commission of crime, at least to irregular habits. When, therefore, their Lordships and the Government had to deal with that great change, and to deal with it under circumstances of the greatest difficulty, was it wonderful that the Government should take some little time to consider before they made up their minds as to the course to be taken? All he understood his noble Friend at the head of the Government to say was, that faith should be kept with the convicts, to whom promises had been made by the miti-

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gation of their punishment; but whether in this country or not, had not yet been determined. He would venture to suggest for the consideration of Government that convicts might be sent to the Falkland Islands or to Greenland.
The EARL of DONOUGHMOREwished to know whether the attention of the Government had been directed to the necessity of providing additional accommodation for convicts in this country in the event of transportation being discontinued?
The EARL of ABERDEENwas understood to reply in the affirmative.
LORD CAMPBELLtrusted their Lordships would excuse him for setting the result of recent experience against the assertion of the noble Marquess, that transportation was no longer considered by the convicts as a punishment, because the colonies had become objects of attraction; for he would undertake to say, from his experience on circuit, that when the sentence of transportation was pronounced, it apparently, and he believed really, made as deep an impression as ever on the convicts on whom it was pronounced. When sentence of transportation for ten or fifteen years was passed, the impression was as deep as ever upon the convicts, the families of the convicts, and the bystanders. Those amongst their Lordships who had been present in a criminal court when sentence of transportation was pronounced, must be aware that, although it was short of the sentence of death, it did produce a very deep impression, and that any sentence of imprisonment to be suffered in this country, no matter how long, would not produce any effect at all equal to that. He would remind those Members of the Government who were considering the terms upon which the limitation was to be made, that in the neighbouring country of France, where they had taken every precaution, and where a surveillance that lasted for life was placed over the convict, when he was restored after twenty years passed in the travaux forcées, all the precautions were found to be ineffectual. He was informed by a person of veracity that there was hardly an instance in which a person so sentenced had not returned again to the same course of life, and been, if possible, worse than ever.
LORD BERNERSrose only to say that he had intended to present a petition in reference to the subject of prison discipline, and to make some remarks on the subject; but in consequence of what had fallen from the noble Earl (the Earl of Aber-
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deen) he should not consider it needful at that moment to do so. The petition seemed to complain of the inefficiency of the system of discipline in force in prisons.
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEdid not wish to say anything at present with regard to this country, nor to dispute what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord, anticipating and hoping that a full discussion would be raised on the question in all its bearings, in connexion both with this country and the colonies, when, as regarded the colonies, he would be prepared to express the conclusions at which he had arrived on this subject; but he wished to set his noble Friend (Earl Grey) right as to what he had stated relative to the latest accounts from Van Diemen's Land before Parliament—meaning of course those that had been most recently printed. He was not quite certain of those being the most recent accounts from Van Diemen's Land; but there had been laid upon the table of the House, or were now in the course of printing, papers which he thought would convince his noble Friend that as regarded Van Diemen's Land, there was the very strongest opposition to any further number of convicts being sent to that colony. He was sure that his noble Friend could not dispute that the strong remonstrance of the Legislative Assembly of that colony afforded a decided indication of the views of a large portion of the inhabitants of that colony; and he believed, also, that his noble Friend would find that the feeling had increased within the last twelvemonth against any continuance of the system. He was aware that that able and excellent public officer the Governor of the colony, Sir William Denison, differed in opinion with the majority of the inhabitants of the colony, and with Her Majesty's Government, as to the propriety of abolishing transportation—at any rate as connected with that colony, and that it was desirable to continue it, as the colony would suffer from the discontinuance of it; but the feeling of the colonists, to which he was sure their Lordships would attend in a matter of this kind, was rapidly increasing against the continuance of this system. He did not think that his noble Friend had a right to argue so strongly with respect to the readiness to absorb those convicts within the colony when they arrived there; and he must say he thought that the circumstance referred to by the noble Earl was explainable on other and

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very different grounds from an anxiety on the part of the colonists that the system should be continued; and he could not help thinking that the noble Earl must be aware of the explanations that had been given on more than one occasion in reference to what at first sight appeared to be somewhat at variance with their expression of opinion.
The EARL of DERBYsaid, he had no doubt of what might be called the double feeling existing in Van Diemen's Land; that was to say, that the feeling in Van Diemen's Land of a portion of the population, was against the receiving of convicts, and that upon the other, there was a desire among the masters to have the opportunity of employing convict labour; but he must say that he should have drawn a totally different inference from the prevalence of these two convictions from that which had been arrived at by Her Majesty's Government. The inference which he should have drawn would have been this, that it would have been a perfectly legitimate way of satisfying the general feeling in Van Diemen's Land if the Government had intimated that attention would early be directed to that subject, with the expectation that the system of transportation would be discontinued, and, at the same time, the two well-founded objections touched on by the noble Earl—the breach of faith which the Government had incurred with regard to the convicts who were entitled, by the engagement entered into with them, to be transported, and the want of sufficient accommodation to meet the sudden discontinuance of transportation—might have been overcome. He must beg to say that that was the course which Her Majesty's late Government had intended to pursue on the subject of transportation, as would be seen by the noble Duke on reference to the language used in Her Majesty's Speech. The late Government were certainly of opinion that the longer continuance of transportation to Van Diemen's Land should not be persevered in; but so far from desiring to discontinue transportation as a secondary punishment, which they thought it necessary to preserve as a secondary punishment, the contrary was the fact; and so anxious were they that no misapprehensions of their sentiments should take place on the subject, that the terms in which they referred to it in the Queen's Speech were couched in these cautious words:—
"The system of secondary punishment has usefully occupied the labours of successive Parlia-
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ments; and I shall rejoice if you shall find it possible to devise means by which, without giving encouragement to crime, transportation to Van Diemen's Land may, at no distant period, be altogether discontinued."
He would not say that Her Majesty's Government had arranged all the details, but the system had been very carefully considered, and they believed they did see their way to the adoption of a system that might preserve transportation as a secondary punishment, and at the same time secure, at no distant period, that systematic transportation to Van Diemen's Land should be discontinued. He confessed that he thought Her Majesty's Government had taken a hasty step when, without having made up their minds as to the course they would ultimately pursue, they had at once discontinued transportation to Van Diemen's Land; and announced the decision to the persons who were entitled to claim the privilege of being transported under certain terms, before they had clearly seen their way as to their future course. He thought the course pursued by them was hasty, and might have been advantageously superseded by intimating to the colony their expectation of being able to discontinue transportation, so that a few years might have intervened to allow of sending out those with whom the Government had entered into a compact, and who might have been sent out without exciting the fears of the colonists, and have been absorbed in the colony without difficulty.
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEsubmitted that it was quite as important that they should keep good faith with the colonists, as well as with the convicts; and undoubtedly there was a strong impression on the minds of those who were connected with Van Die-men's Land that a promise had been made on the part of the Government that transportation to that colony should immediately cease. He had received remonstrances in January last from persons connected with the colony, stating they had heard that a ship had been chartered to send out convicts there; that the present Government had committed a gross breach of faith, and should be bound by the promises made by the late Government. He inquired what those promises had been, and he found they did not bear out the anticipations of those gentlemen, because all that had been said on the part of the late Government was that no further transportation should take place so soon as arrangements were made in this country for the purpose. He had

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been informed that it was the intention of the late Government to send no more convicts to Van Diemen's Land after the close of the year; and he thought that when they had determined not to send convicts to a colony reluctant to receive them, the sooner the system was put an end to the better, particularly when it was found there was no absolute impediment as regarded the infliction of punishment in this country. He would remind their Lordships that when they withdrew Van Diemen's Land from the category of convict colonies, there would only remain the small colony of Western Australia, to which, so far as Australia was concerned, any more convicts could be sent. On three important grounds—political, economical, and, above and before all, upon moral grounds—it was the bounden duty of the Government to send no more convicts to any portion of Australia, with the exception of the small colony of Western Australia.
EARL GREYhad never meant to say that there was not a strong feeling in Australia against the reception of more convicts, or that it might not be proper, after making due arrangement, to discontinue transportation to those colonies; but, at the same time, he must be permitted to observe that the feeling expressed against transportation to Van Diemen's Land would appear to partake not a little of the character of what Mr. Carlyle, in his expressive language, would call a "sham." One of the first things to which the members of the anti-convict league bound themselves was to employ no more convict labour; but, if he had not been misinformed by private letters he had seen from that colony, amongst the most clamorous for convict servants were to be found gentlemen who had signed this anti-convict paper. He could not, therefore, believe that the feeling was so strong and so earnest in Van Diemen's Land as had been represented, and that the feeling, such as it was, which really existed, he believed to be, in a great degree, the echo of the foolish language that had been used in this country. There were persons in this country who had been in the habit of telling the people of Van Diemen's Land that the reason why emigrants did not go to that island was, that, as a penal colony, it was considered inferior to other colonies. This language had produced a great effect in Van Diemen's Land, though nothing could be more unfounded than the notion that transportation prevented the emigration to a colony of settlers of the higher
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class. On the contrary, the first settlers of this class that went to New South Wales were attracted by the cheap labour of convicts, and there was no doubt that the same motives would now have led settlers to Van Diemen's Land; indeed, he might mention that he had heard of 'one case of a capitalist who had intended to emigrate to Van Diemen's Land this year, but who had altered his intention because he was led to believe that, by putting an end to transportation, he could not obtain the labour he had expected. At the same time he did not object to the discontinuance of transportation to Van Diemen's Land, provided it was not effected so precipitately, and with so little preparation, as to compel them to act with injustice towards the unhappy men now under punishment at home, who had a right to expect to be relieved from the severe discipline of the penal establishments where they were now detained. By incurring some additional expenditure, he believed that if a little time were taken for the purpose, means might be found of providing elsewhere for the convicts, who, under the former arrangement, would have been sent to Van Diemen's Land. They might then discontinue transportation to Van Diemen's Land; and he believed the effect that it would have upon the prosperity of the colony would be a most useful lesson to the persons who had taken up this cry without reflection. His complaint against the Government was, that they had not taken time to consider what they were to do, but had ceased to sent out convicts to the colony, which was a practical discontinuance of transportation, and might lead to very serious consequences. The noble Duke had said he was prepared to show that, for political, moral, and economical considerations, it was desirable that transportation to the Australian Colonies should cease. He did not know what the arguments of the noble Duke would be; but this fact still remained unshaken, that those Australian Colonies had been created altogether by transportation, because there was not a free person there whose presence was not to be traced ultimately to the system of transportation. It was by sending convicts that free settlers were first attracted there; and the funds by which the conveyance of emigrants had of late years been conveyed there, had all been derived, directly or indirectly, from the wealth first created by convict labour, and by the expenditure of this country on account of convicts. When

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the moral effects of transportation were spoken of, it ought also to be borne in mind that it was an undeniable fact that, of the convicts sent to that colony, ninety-nine out of every hundred, or, at least, some large percentage, became so far reformed that in future they Supported themselves by honest industry, instead of reverting to crime. On the contrary, in this country the Lord Chief Justice, and other authorities on the subject, all the Judges and police magistrates without exception, concurred in saying that in general the discharged convicts, however apparently reformed they might be, reverted to crime. In Australia the holders of tickets of leave might be dispersed over a vast tract of country, and in that way they were prepared for the complete and entire freedom which they might ultimately attain. It Was impossible in this country to place convicts under restrictions that were analogous to those that applied to tickets of leave, because when they turned a man out of prison here he had but one resource; he might go to London next day, and to the old flash houses he was accustomed to frequent, and human nature being what it was he could not resist temptation. He looked upon the course that had been taken by the Government with extreme apprehension as to what the result might be on the peace of the country if men were to be let loose for whose good conduct they could have no security. The noble Earl had told them that there were about 1,000 who were to be turned loose on society almost immediately, and if he was not mistaken, the whole number could not be less than from three to four thousand a year; he could not, therefore, but look with extreme apprehension to what the consequences must be after the lapse of a few years.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that whether it was true or not that the feeling of the Australian colonies against transportation was a "sham," the noble Earl would not deny that Parliament was bound to accept, as the opinion of the colonies, the opinions expressed by the Legislative Assemblies. Every Australian Legislature had agreed in protesting against the continuance of transportation; indeed, to so great a length had the feeling carried them, that two of them, Victoria and South Australia, had lately passed a law that if any convict were found in those colonies who had not fulfilled his term of punishment, he was to be imprisoned until he was sent out of the colony. The Government agreed with the
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Lord Chief Justice, that although there were reasons to be urged against transportation, yet that when it could be carried out it was of essential advantage to this country, was a most humane punishment to the criminal, and was, besides, beneficial to the colony. But it was not possible to force convicts upon an unwilling colony, and considerable excitement having been created, and a breach of faith having been imputed to the Government, it was wiser at once to put an end to sending them out than to keep up ill-will in the colony by sending a few who might be left upon the hands of the Government at home. He could not help thinking that his noble and learned Friend (Lord Campbell), when he spoke of the impression produced by the sentence of transportation, did not carry his views far enough into the other bearings of the question; and he feared he was thinking more of the present impression on the convict than of the ultimate consequences to the public, when he spoke of the desirableness of sending out convicts to the Falkland Islands and Greenland, because, if the convict, at the end of his term of imprisonment, could find nothing to do, and came back to this country, he might as well be imprisoned here at first.
The EARL of DERBY, after what had fallen from the noble Earl, wished to put a question to the noble Duke opposite, and could hardly have a doubt as to the answer he should receive. The noble Earl had referred to two laws that had been passed by the Legislatures of Victoria and South Australia; and if such laws had been passed, he begged to ask the noble Duke if they had been allowed or disallowed by Her Majesty's Government?
The DUKE of NEWCASTLEbegged to say, in reply, that Her Majesty's Government could not approve of measures which contained provisions that were at variance with the Imperial law, and would make null and void the prerogative of the Crown, and that therefore they would be disallowed. The noble Earl (Earl Grey) had said that something like 4,000 or 5,000 persons would be thrown on the country yearly if transportation should cease altogether; but his noble Friend was arguing on an unfounded supposition. The number which, during the last year, had been actually sent to Australia to be absorbed in the free population of that country did not amount to 2,000. The great majority of those on whom sentence of transportation

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was passed were not sent out of the country; and out of the number sent to Bermuda and Gibraltar, many were returning to this country instead of going to Australia.
House adjourned till To-morrow.