The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEpresented a petition from the guardians of the Poor Law Union of Galway, praying that the Report of the Committee of this House of last Session on the Consolidated Annuities (Ireland) Act may be adopted. The noble Marquess said, that he was not going to discuss the general question respecting these annuities, but he would shortly state the position in which the matter stood, and the grounds on which the decision of the Government ought to be taken. He was one of rather a numerous body of Members of both Houses of Parliament who waited on the Chancellor of the Exchequer last February, with the view of impressing on him the necessity of directing the attention of the Government to the expediency of dealing in a fair, equitable, and liberal manner with the subject of these annuities. The Select Committee of their Lordships had devoted much of their time to an examination of the claims of the Government against the land of Ireland, and he ventured to say a more fair, dispassionate, and elaborate investigation into any subject had never taken place. The deputation had pressed on the right hon. Gentleman the necessity of considering not only the report of the Committee, but the evidence on which it was founded; There were particular points to which the deputation felt they were entitled to expect an answer. Those points were explained by his noble Friend near him (Lord Monteagle) with great lucidity and distinctness. One, and in his mind the most important, of those points, was, that the question should be considered by the Government, irrespectively of any other financial arrangement, or of the condition of the Exchequer, or of the resources of Ireland. He had upon that point the most distinct recollection; and when he heard, on a late occasion, the noble Earl at the head of the Government speak on the subject of the financial arrangements, he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) entered his protest against a part of the noble Earl's statement, on the ground that the question respecting these annuities did not appear to have been considered entirely upon its merits. He had since spoken to many of the deputation, and their recollection was unanimous, after having heard the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that that Gentleman assured the deputation that the subject should be 1197 considered solely upon its merits, and that the question with the Government would be whether it was, or was not, a fair, an equitable, a sound, and a wise course towards Ireland to remit part of these annuities. The state of the resources of Ireland was a matter utterly beside the question; for it was perfectly clear that whether these annuities ought to be obtained from Ireland or not, was a question which could have nothing to do with the financial arrangements of the Government. Those arrangements could not in any way affect the liability of Ireland to make those repayments. He did not wish to press the case upon the present Government too strongly, but it certainly had excited great attention, and he regretted that the matter had not been allowed to rest entirely upon the basis upon which he understood the Government had undertaken to consider it. Their Lordships were aware that a Motion had been made recently in the House of Commons with a view to pledge the House to consider forthwith these Irish Consolidated Annuities, in order to alter the arrangements respecting them, and to make those arrangements more favourable to the Irish landlords. He did not at all wonder that that Motion should be refused, as it was very natural to expect that the decision of the Government upon the question, whatever it might be, would be promulgated upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer's making his financial statement. But, although he thought that no Budget could at all affect grounds upon which the Irish Consolidated Annuities were to be levied or remitted, yet it was perfectly clear those Consolidated Annuities might very seriously affect the Budget. It however appeared that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had since denied that any pledge or promise bad been given or made to the deputation, and had stated that the question of the Consolidated Annuities was to be mixed up with other financial questions. He (the Marquess of Clanricarde) had now stated what was his distinct recollection of the interview. No doubt he would be entirely wrong to suppose that the Government had departed from the pledge he understood had been given. And he was certain no man who had considered the subject could deny that it was a question of honour, of equity, and of wise expediency, and one which was not connected with any other question whatever.
§ The EARL of ABERDEENsaid, that 1198 when the noble Marquess commenced his address to their Lordships, he did not know what it was to which the noble Marquess more especially alluded, he (the Earl of Aberdeen) having no knowledge of the meeting to which the noble Marquess had referred, or of the statement which the noble Marquess said had been made by his (the Earl of Aberdeen's) right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He could not, therefore, say anything of the pledge supposed to have been given by his right hon. Friend. All he could say was this, that he felt perfectly satisfied whatever pledge his right hon. Friend might have given, or whatever promise he might have made, would be fully and strictly adhered to.
§ LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, he was present at the meeting held by the deputation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and could bear his testimony that the statement made by his noble Friend (the Marquess of Clanricarde) was perfectly correct. A communication had been made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by himself at the interview, in which he stated that the parties interested in this matter were not disposed to call upon the Government for any premature pledge or promise, but rather wished that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should take time to consider the whole question, and to form an independent opinion upon it for himself. He also pressed upon him the absolute necessity of keeping this question wholly distinct from the financial arrangements of the annual arrangement of the Budget. The application made to the Government was not upon lower ground than that justice. The question, therefore, did not rest on a possible surplus or deficiency of revenue, or the repeal or the imposition of taxes. Nor was the recommendation of the Committee of their Lordships' House, on which the deputation acted, exaggerated or unreasonable. It was a conclusion to which a Committee consisting of a majority of Peers of England had unanimously come. These Consolidated Annuities consisted of five separate heads, all of which had been united into one charge. The deputation perfectly agreed with the Committee that there was no adequate case upon which they could ask the Government for a remission of any part of the debt, which had been incurred by the Irish landlords themselves, with their eyes open—which had been administered by 1199 them, and over which they had the entire control and disposition. It would be most unjust, after that expenditure had been incurred, that they should ask Parliament to make a remission of the money advanced to meet that expenditure. Therefore in respect to all but the charge for public works, they felt that the debt ought to be paid in full. But the Committee did feel with respect to the fifth head of the debt, that, as it had been forced upon them by the unfortunate state of the law and by the circumstance of the calamity which befell Ireland, which exceeded all that was apprehended at the time when the Act was passed under which the debt was created—the amount of that calamity was such as to defeat the good intentions of the Government that introduced the Bill, and neutralise the efficiency of the mechanism employed in its administration, the Committee did, under those circumstances, feel that they had irresistible ground, with respect to that part of the debt, for claiming a remission. The answer given to the deputation was most distinct. The principle advanced by the deputation was admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with whom they communicated, and they obtained the most distinct assurance that their application should not be mixed up with other considerations.
§ Petition ordered to lie on the table.