Lords Sitting of 30 November 1852

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths. —Several Lords.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Oaths in Chancery, &c.

THE NATIONAL SYSTEM OF EDUCATION (IRELAND)—PETITION.
The EARL of CLARENDONsaid, he had a petition to present from certain non-subscribing Presbyterian Ministers in Ireland—in the north as well as in the south, and in the urban as well as the agricultural districts, praying that the fundamental principle of the National System of Education in Ireland may be maintained inviolate. They stated that, in their opinion, any alteration of that system would destroy the confidence of their body in the Board, would impair the usefulness and vigour of the schools, and add fuel to the bitterness of parties in the country. His noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) was, perhaps, aware that in consequence of a speech which his noble Friend made last year, and also of a speech made by the Attorney General for Ireland at his election for the University of Dublin, some apprehension had arisen that a change in that system of education was meditated by Her Majesty's Government. He (the Earl of Clarendon) confessed he did not share in that apprehension; and in answer to numerous inquiries made to him on the subject, he had not hesitated to state his conviction that no danger was likely to accrue to the system with with which the noble Earl's name was so honourably connected, and of which he was the author; and, he believed, that if the noble Earl should think it his duty to institute an investigation

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into the subject, the result would be to show that the system was faithfully administered—that it worked well—that it was not only the best, but the only system which was adapted to the wants and feelings of the people of Ireland -—and that no change could be effected without great difficulty and danger to the cause of education in that country. That opinion had, to a certain extent, been confirmed by the statement lately made by the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Lord Naas); and he (the Earl of Clarendon) was bound to say that the rev. gentleman who had forwarded the petition to him for presentation stated that the speech of the noble Lord had greatly mitigated the apprehensions of himself and other persons in Ireland, though they did not think it necessary on that account to withdraw their petition. He need hardly say that would be a great satisfaction to them, and to the friends and supporters of education in Ireland generally, to learn from the noble Earl at the head of the Government that no change in the national system of education in Ireland was contemplated by Her Majesty's Government.
The EARL, of DERBY: My Lords, during the recess, my attention and that of my Colleagues in the Government, and more especially my noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, has been directed most anxiously to the question of national education in Ireland. My noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland has felt it his duty to devote very great consideration to this question; and with every desire to remove, as far as possible, the feelings or the prejudices of those who are opposed to that system and who desire certain alterations in it, neither I nor my noble Friend at the head of the Government in Ireland can see our way to the introduction of any change which would have that effect without disturbing or materially altering the present system of education in that country. All I can say is, that I consider it would be a very great evil if we were seriously to disturb the existing system; and the Government, not seeing their way to make any alteration with the view to which I have alluded, have no intention of bringing forward any measure to effect what one party had in view, seeing that could not be effected without incurring evils which they would greatly deplore.
Petition read, and ordered to lie on the table.

COMMERCIAL LEGISLATION—FREE TRADE.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDErose to give notice, that on a future day he would move the adoption of Resolutions similar to those which had been lately adopted, not by an unanimous vote, but by a large majority of the House of Commons. He had expected that Resolutions similar to those adopted in the other House would have been proposed to their Lordships' House; and he purposely abstained yesterday from giving the notice he was now about to give. He had hoped, al-though it was but a feeble hope after what passed a week ago, that Her Majesty's Ministers might have thought it necessary to communicate those Resolutions to their Lordships' House, to renew them there, or to take some steps to move Resolutions of a similar nature on the subject. But as it did not appear now that any step had bean taken on his (the Marquess of Clanricarde's) side of the House, he thought it was due to the House as well as to the great question to which the Resolutions of which he had spoken related, that the matter should be brought under their Lordships' deliberate opinion, and that their Lordships' judgment thereupon should be regularly, and he hoped permanently, recorded. Therefore, upon some day that might be most convenient to the House—he cared not what day it might be, for in that respect he was in the hands of the House—he should bring the subject under the consideration of their Lordships. If it was satisfactory to the House, and if it equally suited the convenience of the noble Lord opposite (the Earl of Derby), he should name Monday; if not, any other day that might be more agreeable.
The EARL of DERBY: I certainly think —considering the noble Marquess asked me a short time since whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose any measure of importance, or to ask the opinion of the House on any important measure before Christmas, and that in consequence of the answer I gave to the House, which was in the negative, a very large number of noble Lords had left town—I certainly think, if the noble Marquess intends to bring forward this question, and to submit a Resolution to your Lordships' consideration, sufficient time should be given to those noble Lords who may desire to take part in that discussion to return to town, which

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I think can hardly he before Monday week. It will be convenient for me to enter into a discussion on Monday next; and if the noble Marquess thinks it is necessary to raise a discussion, I cannot at all object to his bringing his Resolution forward on Monday next. But at the same time I must say I am quite ready, if the House thinks fit, to adopt such a Resolution as shall faithfully express the opinion of this House and the country with regard to the course of future policy; and I am not prepared to call on those noble Lords who, adhering to the present policy and determined fairly and candidly to carry it out, entertain still the opinion which they previously entertained with regard to the policy of the original measure—I am not prepared, I say, to call upon them to sanction a Resolution which shall express opinions with regard to the past not in accordance with their own views. But if the noble Marquess is satisfied with a Resolution—I am not now speaking of any particular form of words —which fairly adopts the recently established policy for the future, I am quite prepared to concur with him as to the form of words which should be introduced; and that they shall be as binding as the most cordial advocate of free trade can desire. I am quite prepared to concur with the noble Marquess and other noble Lords on the other side of the House in passing a Resolution which should be in terms something like these:—"That this House thankfully acknowledges the general prosperity of the country; and, recognising the evils of frequent changes in the financial system of the country, is prepared to accept and adhere to the commercial system recently established, with a view to its being fully maintained and carried into effect." I do not desire at this moment to bind myself or noble Lords to any particular words; but such a Resolution, I think, would entirely satisfy those who only desire to have a security for the future; and I confess I think it would be more satisfactory to your Lordships' House, and to the country generally, that such a Resolution should be come to by your Lordships, rather than have discussions, wranglings, and altercations with reference to particular terms or words, which I am bound to say I do not think reflect any very great credit on the proceedings of the Legislature. I submit to the consideration of the noble Marquess, whether, looking to the future policy of the country,
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and the feelings which have been excited on this subject, it would not be better to conciliate rather than to aggravate those feelings by the consideration of questions bearing on the past; whether such a course would not better suit his views and those of other noble Lords acting with him; and whether it would not be more conducive to the good feeling of this House that such a Resolution should be adopted, rather than that an Amendment should be moved of a character which would lead to a long and acrimonious discussion.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, he was sure the noble Earl would not expect him at once to adopt the suggestion he had made, and which rather took him by surprise. He did not think that any opposition, or rather he should say hesitation, would have been shown by the noble Earl to adopt the words which he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) certainly thought were frankly, fairly, and voluntarily adopted by the noble Earl's colleagues in another place. He saw great inconvenience in a Resolution being adopted by this House different from that of the other House. He would not, however, enter on the subject now. nor would he express any decided opinion on the subject; but this he would say, with reference; to something that fell from the noble Earl, that it should not be the fault of him (the Marquess of Clanricarde) if any wranglings, unpleasant altercations, or discussions arose in that House in discussing that question. He wished to bring forward the question wholly and solely on large principles, and in such a manner as he thought was due to this House and to so important a matter.
The EARL of DERBY: With regard to a Resolution in the other House of Parliament, the House will be aware that the Resolution which was adopted and sanctioned by a very large majority, was not a Resolution proposed by either side of the House, but one which was accepted as a compromise between extreme opinions, and which it was hoped would lead to a satisfactory adjustment. But as the noble Marquess wishes to take into consideration the suggestion I have thrown out, perhaps he will abstain from placing any notice on the books at present; and perhaps on Thursday he will say what course he intends to pursue. If he thinks it fit to persevere with his Motion, it will then he my duty to otter an Amendment; and he will then perhaps not have any objection

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to give some further notice—say from Thursday to that day week. But if on Thursday he will take the course which I think desirable, then it will not be necessary to summon noble Lords who are now absent, and who will find it inconvenient to attend on Monday.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE: On Thursday, then, I will give the notice.

CLERGY RESERVES IN CANADA.
LORD WODEHOUSEasked the noble Earl the Under Secretary for the Colonies, whether there would be any objection to lay on the table of the House certain correspondence relating to the Clergy Reserves in Canada?
The EARL of DESARTsaid, the correspondence was not yet ripe for discussion: but he confessed he had not clearly heard what the noble Lord asked, owing to the conversation going on in the House on the termination of the previous question. The correspondence that had taken place on the subject was very scanty, but such as it was, there was no objection to its production. He could assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government were deeply impressed with the importance of this subject. It was now fully under the consideration of his right hon. Friend at the head of the Colonial Office, and he trusted that ere long some final settlement would be arrived at, which would be consonant with the just rights of all parties concerned.

OATHS IN CHANCERY BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he rose simply to move the Second Reading of a Bill which he had had the honour to introduce to the House on a previous occasion. The purpose of it was to give a different name to Masters Extraordinary in Chancery, and to enable all solicitors within ten miles of London to act in the same way as Masters Extraordinary formerly acted. There was one provision in the Bill for the purpose of saving expense in taking evidence under deeds and wills. He wished to take that opportunity to correct a misapprehension which had gone abroad, that it was the intention of the Act to take away from the Masters Extraordinary the benefits which they previously had. No such intention appeared in the Bill; the object of it merely was to give them a name consonant with their occupation.
Bill read 2a, and committed.

CORK CITY ELECTION.
The EARL of DONOUGHMOREpresented a petition from inhabitants and owners of property within the Parliamentary boundary of the city of Cork, complaining of the manner in which the officers charged with the preservation of the peace in that city discharged their duty at the last election, and praying for relief. He had intended to accompany the presentation of the petition with some remarks of his own, but as there was a petition in reference to this election under consideration in the other House of Parliament, he should refrain from doing so. He might, however, observe that for two days, during the election, the city of Cork was in the possession of a lawless mob.
The EARL of BANDONsaid, he merely rose for the purpose of supporting the petition presented by the noble Earl, and to state that he could bear testimony to the disgraceful conduct represented in the petition.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, he observed that the petitioners prayed, amongst other things, that the House would devise some mode of protecting life and property during elections in Ireland. Without, however, questioning the allegations contained in the petition, he submitted that it would be disadvantageous in every way, if their Lordships' House were to raise discussions with respect to matters of that description, as they might thereby prejudice the impartial consideration of the election petition before the tribunals appointed to try their merits.
The EARL of DERBY: I do not think my noble Friend behind me is open to any censure on the part of the House, or of my noble Friend who has just sat down, for having in the performance of his duty, presented a petition, couched in most respectful terms, to this House, asking for the intervention of Parliament for the removal of that which, if it did exist at the last election, was undoubtedly a great evil; and stating facts connected with the locality from which the petition proceeded which were within the knowledge of the petitioners themselves, and on which they founded their prayer for some remedial measures. On the other hand, I concur with my noble Friend that a lengthened discussion, or an attempt to form a judgment with regard to the merits of a particular case, ought not to precede an inquiry, still less an attempt of the Legislature to pronounce an opinion upon a question of

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this kind, when an inquiry will, in all probability, take place before the proper legal and constitutional tribunal in another place. I entirely concur with my noble Friend that such a course would be both unwise and impolitic. If I correctly understand my noble Friend behind me, he does not propose to institute any inquiry at the present moment. This case of Cork as detailed by the petitioners, I fear, is by no means a single one; and I am afraid that in the course of the approaching Session of Parliament very many petitions of a similar character will be presented by different parties in Ireland, and will undergo investigation, on oath, before those tribunals which are appointed for the especial purpose of inquiry into disputed elections. I think that before those Committees it is very possible that not only local but much general information of very considerable interest and importance may be produced; and I am far from saying that if the result should be that not only in one case but in several—from any quarter or by any body of men—the free exercise of the right of election has been tampered or interfered with in Ireland— I am far from saying that the result of such a mass of evidence from different quarters may not justify and render necessary the intervention of the Legislature for the purpose of preventing such an infringement of the law, and such an interference with the liberty of the subject. But, for the present, while I cannot concur with the noble Lord opposite (Lord Monteagle) that my noble Friend behind me is open to any censure for having presented the petition, I entirely agree in the propriety of our neither, in this nor any other similar case, prejudging questions which must be submitted to competent tribunals in the other House of Parliament.
Petition read, and ordered to lie on the table.

UNIVERSITY TESTS IN SCOTLAND.
The DUKE of ARGYLLsaid, he wished to put a question to the noble Earl at the head of the Government, of very pressing importance, with reference to academic tests in Scotland. It was not his intention to raise any discussion on the subject, as the facts were sufficiently known to the noble Earl, and would probably before long come in detail under the consideration of their Lordships. All who were acquainted with the subject must be impressed with a sense of the incongruity of those tests with
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the existing circumstances and state of society in Scotland. He was, however, fully sensible of the difficulties to he dealt with in determining how they should be altered, and whether any other tests should be substituted. He trusted that if any change or modification of the law took place, it would come from the hands of the Government. He had reason to believe that the attention of the Government of the late Sir Robert Peel had been called to the important subject, and that if they had continued much longer in office, they would have laid a measure before Parliament with a view to the amendment of the law. The present law officers of the Crown in Scotland were gentlemen of the highest abilities and attainments, and as competent as any of their predecessors to deal with the question. He thought it of importance that if any measure was proposed, it should proceed from those who could not be supposed to be hostile to the Established Church. It was on that ground he urged the Government to take the subject into their serious consideration. He hoped the noble Earl would not be deterred from entering upon it by finding it was not in his power to devise any measure which would meet the opinions and views of all parties. From his own knowledge of the state of parties, and of the ecclesiastical divisions in Scotland, he was convinced that if the noble Earl refrained from introducing a measure until he could frame one which should be acceptable to all parties, he had better abandon the attempt at once, as altogether hopeless. He had no wish to speak with the slightest disrespect of the opinions and feelings of those who belonged to the Established Church in Scotland, of which he was a member. It was but natural that the ecclesiastical courts which were placed in the peculiar situation of trustees of the Church, should take a somewhat limited and technical view of the question, and stand on her legal and constitutional rights, however at variance with the altered circumstances of society. Though, as he before said, he was anxious that a measure should originate with those who, in a general point of view, were known to be favourable to the interests of the Established Church, he did not desire that an attempt should be made to conciliate all opinions, or even that the measure should receive the approbation and approval of the ecclesiastical courts. Having made these observations, he would ask, whether the Government intended, during the present Session, to propose any alteration

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or modification of the religious tests at present imposed on professors previous to occupying chairs in the Universities of Scotland?
The EARL of DERBY: I will give a plain answer to the noble Duke. Looking at the existing state of the law and the existing practice of the law, and looking, moreover, at the altered circumstances of Scotland in regard to ecclesiastical establishments, I certainly do not consider the present state of things as one calculated to give satisfaction; but at the same time the noble Duke has himself admitted the extreme difficulty of dealing with the question, which is one calculated to excite peculiarly strong religious feeling, and one, moreover, the noble Duke will bear in mind, in which this country is involved— one of the fundamental articles of the Treaty of Union with Scotland having been introduced for the protection of the rights of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland, when that country was incorporated with England, with an united Legislature in which the Scottish representatives must necessarily be a minority. The question of the possibility of altering the existing law is under anxious consideration of the Government, assisted by the present eminent chief law officer of the Crown in in Scotland. I must say that while, in the first place, I admit that the present state of the law is so unsatisfactory that it might be possible for the Government to introduce amendments, yet it must not be forgotten that it is necessary, in dealing with such a question, to have peculiar reference to the religious feelings of a large portion of Scotchmen who still adhere to the Established Church, and to take especial care that, in introducing any amendment into the law, we do not give a colour to the allegation that we are using the power of the majority in a way hostile to the Presbyterian Church of the country, and for the purpose of removing restrictions and tests on which that Church sets great value, because they necessarily connect the Universities with the doctrine and discipline of the Presbyterian Church. Now, in employing those words doctrine and discipline, I confess that, in using my own judgment on the subject, and without hoping in the least to do that which has been adverted to by the noble Duke—conciliating the views of all parties—I certainly would have been very desirous to have seen a distinction drawn between two distinct portions of the' tests—namely, those which
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apply to doctrine and those which apply to discipline. I believe the intension of the tests to be to secure the religious character of the University, and also its adherence to the Presbyterian doctrines of Scotland against the Episcopalians, the Roman Catholics, or any other body of men. The point of discipline is one altogether of minor importance. It always happens that in proportion as religious bodies approach each other more nearly in point of doctrine, the more earnestly they differ about questions of discipline and points of minor importance; and I apprehend that practically these tests are not brought to bear against Episcopalians, but are enforced against members of the Presbyterian Church who profess the doctrines, yet dissent from the discipline. I am, however, ready to admit, that if an alteration Could be made, which, without altering the religious and Presbyterian character of the Universities, could in any way tend to reconcile the great bodies into which the Church of Scotland is at this moment split, and give those Universities the advantage of the talents and attainments of professors belonging to the different denominations, such a measure would be well entitled to the consideration of the Government. But, as I said before looking at the difficulties which surround the question, I cannot undertake to promise that it will be in the power of the Government to bring forward any specific measure for the amendment of the law with regard to those tests.
The DUKE of ARGYLLtrusted that the opinions which had been expressed by the noble Earl would have a good effect in Scotland. It should be recollected that after a professor had been admitted by taking those tests, the ecclesiastical courts of the Established Church had no power over him, and the declaration that he was subject to their discipline was a mere form. Though it had the effect of excluding most eminent men from the chairs of the Universities, it did no good. There were some men who wished for the abolition of all religious tests, but in that opinion he was not prepared to concur. He agreed with the noble Earl, that, touching as this matter did on a question that was settled by the Act of Union between England and Scot-land, it was but right they Should act with the greatest caution; but he could not see how a measure such as the noble Earl had alluded to, being a minimum change, Could injuriously affect the interests of the

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Established Church, While it would materially Conduce to education in Scotland, and admit to the chairs of the Universities many men who were most able to discharge the important duties connected with them.
House adjourned to Thursday next.