Lords Sitting of 29 November 1852

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—Several Lords.

MILITARY PENSIONERS.
LORD PANMURErose to put a question to the noble Earl at the head of the Government, of which he had given him notice. Before, however, putting his question, he hoped he might be permitted to enter into a short preliminary explanation of the subject to which his question related, in order that he might render the question itself more clear and intelligible. His question had reference to a meritorious class of individuals who had rendered considerable public service in various parts of the world—he meant the body of pensioners belonging to the British Army. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships that in 1843 his noble and gallant Friend, now Commander of the Army, but who then held the office which he (Lord Panmure) had afterwards the honour of holding—that of Secretary at War—introduced a measure for enrolling the pensioners who had received pensions for long service into a body fit for service under arms. When he (Lord Panmure) had the honour of succeeding to that office which his noble and gallant Friend had held with so much advantage to the public, he found that those pensioners had been of so much advantage to the public service, that he brought a Bill into the House of Commons, to which that House subsequently assented, to increase their number from 10,000, at which Lord Hardinge had fixed it, to 30,000, the number now enrolled. Those pensioners had been enrolled for nearly ten years, and had served the country with a zeal and fidelity which it was not necessary for him to praise, because all who had had anything to do with them had highly commended them. In 1847, so beneficial were their services esteemed in this country, that Earl Grey, who was then head of the Colonial Office, and himself (Lord Panmure), who was then in the War Office, thought it right to extend their services to the Colonies; and
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accordingly in 1847 they first sent pensioners out to New Zealand, where they had proved themselves extremely useful in the then disturbed state of that colony. Those men had proved themselves efficient, not only in rendering military service to the Crown, but they were the means of enabling the authorities in this country to withdraw a portion of the Queen's troops from that colony. The pensioners were sent out on certain conditions; they were to have certain accommodation afforded, in the shape of houses, with lands attached to them, which they were to be permitted to cultivate and improve. In New Zealand, Australia, and Van Diemen's Land, to each of which colonies the Government sent bodies of men, these conditions had been faithfully kept; and the result was, that these pensioners were contented and faithful, and the services which they rendered to the Crown were undeniable. From that part of the world the noble Earl, late Colonial Secretary, and himself directed their views to Canada, where they found a considerable number of pensioners located who were not enrolled. It was deemed advisable to send Major Drummond out there in order to ascertain whether these pensioners were capable of service, and if the Government in the Canadian colonies had any control over any portion of the land there which might be granted to those pensioners when they came to settle in the different localities to which they were sent. It was found that there were certain military reserves in Canada which were at the disposal of the Government, and that in the neighbourhood of Montreal and Toronto the Ordnance had entire control over certain military reserves, which, if they were disposed to surrender, would suit admirably for the purpose of locating pensioners upon. In communicating with the Ordnance they found that there was no difficulty on their part in surrendering those lands for the use of the number of pensioners it was then thought requisite or safe to send out at one period. They accordingly sent out a certain detachment to Canada, and the Government were consequently enabled to withdraw many of their troops from that colony also. In one portion of the Canadas, all the conditions which had been made with the pensioners had been faithfully fulfilled, and he believed that there was not a more contented or loyal body to be found than were located in that particular part of Canada. Elsewhere, he understood that the condition

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held out to the pensioners, though partially had not been entirely fulfilled; for instance, at Toronto. In sending the pensioners to Toronto, the conditions entered into with them were exactly the same as in the other places, namely, that they should receive a certain portion of those lands which they were to cultivate, and to hold upon certain terms. Now he understood that these pensioners had been there for many months—there were 220 of them settled at Toronto—and no steps had been as yet taken to fulfil the conditions upon which they were sent there. He did not wish to throw any blame upon the Government in this matter—all he wished was, to draw their attention to the fact. He was sure that the noble Earl must be aware that no body of men were so jealous of any infringement of any conditions made with them as old soldiers and sailors, who had served their country for many years, and had retired upon pensions. Their Lordships might recollect the unfortunate step taken in 1831, in sending out old soldiers to Canada, and inducing them to commute their pensions to four years' purchase. They might remember the sad fate of many of the men who were led to enter into that melancholy bargain. It happened to him when Secretary at War to have had occasion to call upon the public to reimburse those men for the losses they had sustained, and a more grateful task he had never had to perform. That, however, should be a caution to us as to how we sent pensioners abroad in the present day, upon conditions which were not only written, but which were printed and put into each man's hand on the authority and honour of the Secretary of State and the Secretary at War for the time being. He wished to impress upon the Government that they should lose no time in settling with these old soldiers upon terms that would prove satisfactory to them. They might rely on it, according as they increased that force, that they would have the best system of military colonisation that could be possibly adopted, and they would be increasing in the Colonies the number of loyal subjects, who would be ever loyal to the Queen, and bound by other obligations to the service of this country. Having said so much by way of explanation, he would now ask the noble Earl whether it was true that these conditions had not as yet been fulfilled, so far as regarded the pensioners who were settled at Toronto? Whether it was the intention of the Go-
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vernment to carry out those conditions? or, if the Government found those conditions to be impracticable, or in case some unexpected difficulty had arisen, whether they were prepared to offer any compensation, so as to remunerate those pensioners for the failure of the conditions entered into with the former Government?
The EARL of DERBYsaid, that though he agreed with the noble Lord in many parts of his speech, there was one part of it in which he entirely and most especially agreed—namely, that a succeeding Government, whatever opinion it might entertain of the policy which dictated them, was bound to carry out fully the engagements into which its predecessors had entered with any class of persons. He further agreed with the noble Lord in his observation that there was no class of men with whom it was more incumbent that good faith should be strictly observed than that class of men to whom he had more particularly referred—namely, the discharged pensioners of the Army and Navy. At the same time, he must remark that he entertained strong doubts whether the system to which the noble Lord had adverted, and which had been in partial operation for the last three or four years, was likely to be productive of so much unmixed benefit as the noble Lord expected; and he could not but fear that some inconvenience would result, as had resulted on a former occasion, from sending out old pensioners to engage in a mode of life for which their previous habits had unfitted them; and, moreover, that you would not gain from them in another country that military protection for which the noble Lord was such an advocate. That had, however, nothing to do with the question of good faith. He doubted the policy of the original scheme; and he doubted it the more, because there was no provision made, as their Lordships were well aware, for the removal of these old soldiers from the little plots on which they were located when they were incapable of military service, or of working on and cultivating their land. Consequently, at no distant period you would have settled on lands near the town a pauperised and discontented population. The facts, as stated by the noble Lord, were, that up to the present moment the conditions, held out to the pensioners sent to Toronto held not been fulfilled. That was not the, fault of the present Government, but arose out of the course adopted by their predecessors in sending the men out with a promise

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of locating them immediately on land without having previously ascertained whether there was any such land at the disposal of Government. He held in his hand at that moment the printed conditions on which the pensioners had been sent out. It was there stated that the pensioners were to receive a free passage and rations for themselves and families to such countries as the Government might determine upon for their future habitation and service. There were to be certain advances made to them for the purpose of building houses, and from three to four acres of land were to be allotted to each man in the immediate neighbourhood of towns, upon which these houses, or rather cottages, were to be built. He doubted the policy of that arrangement; for, though it was clear that the pensioners might eke out an existence in this manner while they were capable of military service and of working on the land; yet, when strength failed them for one or both, there was no provision made for the support either of themselves or of their families. There was also another point in the printed conditions which must not be overlooked. "It must be distinctly understood that the grant of land depends on the quantity available by Government, and that the want of it affords no claim for compensation. All that will be insured is a free passage to Upper Canada, where provisions are cheap, and where employment can be easily obtained." Now, in the case of the pensioners at Toronto these were the facts: 220 of them had been sent out. The expectation held out to them was, that from two to three acres of land would be granted to them in the neighbourhood of that town. The whole of the Ordnance reserve in Toronto, if every inch were made available for this purpose, amounted to less than 400 acres; so that it would be insufficient, even at a minimum allowance, for 220 persons. Whether the late Government was aware of the fact or no he could not say: but the fact was that, supposing all the Ordnance reserve had been available, 270 or 280 acres of it were let under a lease to the corporation of Toronto. Therefore, all the disposable land under the control of the Government was only 120 acres, even supposing you wanted none of it for Ordnance purposes. Now, there had been a dispute for some time between the corporation of Toronto and the Government on this point—namely, how far the Government had power to rescind that lease?
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Now, that point ought to have been ascertained before the pensioners were sent out. A great portion of time had been consumed in discussion between the corporation of Toronto and the Government upon the powers of this lease; and recently a proposition had been made by the corporation of Toronto, that if the Government would allow them to take 100 acres for the purpose of forming it into a park for the town of Toronto, they would pay 1,000 l. for the clearing of the wilderness—for such it was—in order that the pensioners might be comfortably and satisfactorily settled in their location, though smaller than at first contemplated. There was also a further deduction to be made from the quantity of land available to the purposes of the Ordnance. By an Act of the Colonial Parliament passed three or four years ago, to which the Ordnance had paid at the time little or no attention, power was given to a certain railway to cut right through the centre of this land. The railway had, therefore, taken nine acres more. Here, then, was another element of uncertainty, which thus rendered it impossible for the Government to settle these pensioners in the immediate neighbourhood of Toronto in the way originally intended. Such was the condition in which they found this affair on their entering upon office; and such he believed it to be at the present moment; so that, unless some progress had recently been made in the negotiation, although the pensioners had been enrolled and called out, and served their twelve days, the conditions held out to them had not been fulfilled. While he said that the conditions had not been fulfilled, he thought it right, also, to add, that it was the duty of Her Majesty's Government, whatever it might think of the policy of the original bargain, to provide either literally for the fulfilment of the original contract, or for the making of such compensation to the pensioners as justice might require and they were willing to accept. There was another point which he must notice before he quitted this subject, and to which the noble Lord had not at all adverted—namely, the wisdom of disposing of lands in this way for Ordnance purposes. If this land near Toronto were to continue available for such purposes, it would be necessary to prohibit the construction of any extensive buildings upon it, and to limit the construction to cottages of a single story; but, if the laud were not to be kept entirely clear for Ordnance purposes, in that case, from the circumstance

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of its close proximity to the city of Toronto, it might become valuable for building purposes; and yet, by the terms of this agreement with the pensioners, it must be let to them on short and terminable leases, thus rendering it less valuable, and, as an arrangement, not the best to be made for the parties themselves. It was clear that, if these parties had a right to claim to be placed on this land, and to have a lease granted to them of the cottage built thereon, and of the two acres to be attached to it, the general value of the land would be sacrificed in a way in which it ought not to be sacrificed. In his opinion it was not advisable to devote, as we were going to do, to permanent garden ground land which might be far more valuable for building purposes. He believed that these questions were under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. The Colonial Secretary was giving his attention to them, and he hoped that at no very distant period there would be a satisfactory settlement of the whole of this question.
LORD PANMUREwould be prepared to discuss the policy of this arrangement with the noble Earl at any future period he liked, but would not enter upon that discussion at present. His object in rising now was merely to deny the noble Earl's observation that the pensioners had been sent out without its having been previously ascertained whether the Government had any land whereon to locate them. The noble Earl laboured upon that point under a grievous mistake. Before the pensioners were sent to Toronto, Her Majesty's Government of that day had ascertained that the Ordnance had both the power and the will to surrender to them the land in question. He could not see any reason why such surrender was not made long ago. The whole question turned upon this:—When we took the land, it was, as the noble Earl truly said, part of the wilderness. The corporation of Toronto had leased a portion of it for the express purpose of making improvements. It failed in its engagement to do so; and he believed that the Ordnance had in consequence declared their lease to be forfeited. As to the objection taken by the noble Earl, that this land was wanted for the military defence of Toronto, he had only to say that he had himself visited Toronto; that it was a perfectly open place; that it had neither fortification nor battery; that the barracks which it contained were rather erected to keep the inhabitants in, than an
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enemy out; and that, to speak the plain truth, it was no more a fortified place than London was. On the most impoverished land in Canada the pensioners Were doing well—no settlers better.
The EARL of DERBYreiterated his former statement, and added, that he had received an account only that morning, stating that the whole of this land ought to be kept clear, to prevent an enemy from approaching in the rear of Toronto, and from taking a position on those points from which the town could be most easily annoyed.
House adjourned till To-morrow.