Lords Sitting of 19 November 1852

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament. —The Lord Lurgan, after the Death of his Father. Took the Oaths. —Several Lords; The Lord Lovat took the Oath prescribed by the Act of 10th Geo. IV., to be taken by Peers professing the Roman Catholic Religion.

THE SANITARY CONFERENCE—QUARANTINE REGULATIONS.
The EARL of ST. GERMANSrose to put to his noble Friends the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (the Earl of Malmesbury), and the President of the Council (the Earl of Lonsdale), the questions of which he had given notice with respect to the quarantine regulations. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships that in the last Session of Parliament [3 Hansard, cxxi. 1267], he moved for the production of the minutes of proceedings of an International Sanitary Conference that met at Paris in the years 1851–52, and to which assembly many most eminent medical and scientific men were sent by the principal maritime and commercial States of Europe, for the purpose of considering and reporting upon the quarantine regulations now in force throughout Europe. His noble Friend the Foreign Secretary replied to him that the Government had no objection to give the information for which he had asked, but that they could not then lay upon the table the papers relating to the convention by which it was proposed to give effect to the recommendations of the Conference, because the precise terms of the convention were not yet agreed on. He (the Earl of St. Germans) at once acquiesced in the decision of the noble Earl, and left it entirely to his discretion to lay upon the table such extracts from those minutes and other papers as he could produce without detriment to the public service. At the same time, at the suggestion of the noble Earl the Chief Commissioner of the Board of Health (the Earl of Shaftesbury), the report of that body on the subject of the Sanitary Conference was also ordered to be laid on the table. That was on the 28th of May last; but up to that day, the 19th November, none of these papers had, as far as he knew, been laid on the table. He wished, therefore, to know, in the first place, what was the cause of the delay which had taken place in the production of these papers, and whether there was any pro-

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spect of their being soon laid upon the table? He next wished to know whether the convention by which it was intended to carry into effect a portion at least of the recommendations of the Conference had been ratified, and, if not, what were the obstacles which prevented such ratification? He believed that he was justified in saying that for the last sixteen years such a measure had been strongly desired by the noble Earl's predecessors in office—not only by the noble Earl's immediate predecessor (Earl Granville), but by the noble Viscount who had presided over the Foreign Office for so many years (Viscount Palmerston), and also by that noble Viscount's predecessor (the Earl of Aberdeen); and it would be a matter of great regret to the country at large if his noble Friend could not hold out to them some hope of the ratification of the Convention at an early day. An impression (which, indeed, he sincerely believed to be erroneous) prevailed abroad that persons interested personally in the retention of the quarantine system had prevailed upon Her Majesty's Government to recede from the position occupied by their predecessors; and that, instead of aiding that onward movement which would have swept away those vexatious restrictions, they had been induced to incline towards their retention. He did not himself believe this to be the case; but he thought it would be satisfactory to the public to hear an assurance to that effect from the noble Earl. His next question would be addressed to his noble Friend the President of the Council. On the 2nd of September last, a letter was addressed by order of the Privy Council to the Commissioners of Customs directing that all vessels arriving from foreign countries having persons on board "actually suffering from cholera, or who had been suffering from that disease within five days previous to the arrival of the vessel in port, should be detained under a precautionary quarantine for such period as might be deemed necessary." Now he wished to ask the noble Earl (the Earl of Lonsdale) on whose advice and authority that letter was written? It was well known that the Board of Health, the tribunal specially charged by Parliament with the administration of the laws for the prevention of disease, not only utterly disbelieved in the efficacy of the system of quarantine regulations, but believed, on the other hand, that they were productive of serious evil in a sanitary point of view. The College of Physicians, also, although in 1831 they re-
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commended the adoption of the most stringent measures for the prevention of the spread of cholera, and even went to the extent of proposing to isolate infected districts of the country, yet, in 1848, declared their conviction that all attempts to prevent the spread of cholera by means of cordons or quarantine regulations had utterly failed. On what medical or scientific authority, then, did the noble Earl rely when he issued these instructions? He wished next to ask the noble Earl what was the meaning of that passage in the letter which related to "persons on board in the enjoyment of good health?" His want of apprehension of the meaning of that passage might arise from his own incapacity, but, at any rate, he found his doubts shared by a very intelligent body of men; for shortly-after that letter appeared, a memorial was addressed to the Lords of the Treasury by the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, putting the very same question which he was now asking. Whether the Treasury had replied to that memorial he did not know, but certainly no reply had been published. He wished to know whether, by the "free communication with the shore," which it was stated would be allowed to persons in the enjoyment of good health, it was intended that they should be allowed to leave the vessel, or whether it was intended that they should be detained on board, and merely permitted to have intercourse with those on shore? Whatever might be the meaning of this passage, it altogether abandoned and relinquished the only principle upon which the quarautine system could be maintained; because if persons in good health having come to England with a vessel having cholera patients on board were permitted either to land or even to have free intercourse with the shore, it proclaimed to the world at once that we had no faith in the principle of contagion upon which we acted; and, therefore, this arrangement of the noble Earl was altogether inconsistent with the view which those must be supposed to entertain who enforced even a precautionary quarantine. The last question he had to ask was, whether any measures had been taken to ensure proper medical attendance being given to the persons who might be attacked with disease while they were detained in quarantine? We had not in this country, as was the case in the maritime States of Italy, lazarettos or hospitals for the reception of the persons on board ships declared in quarantine; but all

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ships coming to our ports must perform quarantine, with the crew and passengers on board, at certain stations or grounds. The principal of our quarantine stations was that at the Motherbank; yet we were told by the superintendent-general of quarantine that he ordered the Eclair to Standgate Greek, because intercourse with the shore Was absolutely impossible at Motherbank in stormy weather. Stand-gate Creek, on the other hand, had been pronounced by Sir William Burnett, director-general of the medical department of the Navy, to be the most unhealthy spot on our shores. Then again, at the mouth of the Humber, where the northern ships performed quarantine, the quarantine station was several miles distant from Hull, and if the weather was rough, or the wind and tide were unfavourable, it often required six or seven hours to communicate with that town. If hospitals and lazarettos, well aired and ventilated, were provided, persons who were attacked had a reasonable hope and chance of recovering! but let the House consider what was the position of an unfortunate man suffering from disease, and yet cribbed and cabined between the decks of a merchant vessel riding in one of these quarantine grounds, and without the reach of the medical care of nursing that a person in such a state required. Such were the questions of which he had given notice to his two noble Friends opposite; but he also wished to put another, of which he had not and could not give notice. Their Lordships would, he was sure, have seen with deep pain and sorrow the announcement in the papers of that morning of the arrival of one of Her Majesty's mail steamers from the West Indies with the yellow fever on board, several fatal Cases having occurred in the Course of the voyage. The question which he now wished to ask was, whether La Plata-for that was the name of the steam-packet--had been relieved from quarantine; and if not, whether any accommodation had been provided, or any precautions taken, for the reception of the unfortunate men on board? Look at the case of the Eclair, which was long detained in quarantine, and in which disease prevailed and increased with the continuance of the quarantine, and Contrast it with the case of the Arethusa in December last, which, having landed its crew at Plymouth attacked by smallpox, had no fresh instance of disease afterwards; while in the Eclair, from which no person was permitted to
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land, the ravages were frightful. These were the questions which he had to ask; and he would express his unfeigned hope that the answers which he was about to receive would give satisfaction to the House and to the country, and would convince both that the Government was not clinging pertinaciously to a vexatious and expensive system, which experience and science had proved to be utterly worthless.
The EARL of MALMESBURYsaid, that without subscribing entirely to the notion which his noble Friend seemed to entertain, that contagion was altogether impossible, he must assure him that Her Majesty's Government was not less anxious than its predecessors to bring the convention to which his noble Friend had referred to a satisfactory result. He was sorry to have to inform his noble Friend that at that moment the negotiations for the conclusion of the convention were not terminated; and, therefore, he was obliged to tell his noble Friend that he could not, with due regard to the public service, lay on the table of the House the papers respecting which he had asked. They were excessively voluminous, and he did not think that any extracts that could be given from them would give his noble Friend the satisfaction which he expected to derive from their perusal. Indeed, if he were to lay those papers on the table, he should only be delaying the progress of the convention. While he had to regret that the negotiations for the convention had not arrived at a successful result as yet, still, although they might not terminate, as he hoped at one time they would, in the general consent of the twelve Powers to one formal convention, he had a confident expectation that Seven Or eight of the principal maritime States would sign such a convention. It was naturally desirable that the principal Powers with ports in the Mediterranean should agree to such a measure; but at this moment some of the States of Italy, Spain, and Austria, either refused their signature to the convention, or else put forth such difficulties in the way of signing it as they had not been able to overcome; on the other hand, Portugal, Sardinia, France, England, and, he believed, he might say, Russia, did not object to sign such a convention as Her Majesty's Government had proposed. He hoped that before long it would be signed by some of the Powers of Europe, although he could hope to have it signed by all. When that event took place, he should have great sa-

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tisfaction in laying on the table all the correspondence.
The EARL of LONSDALEsaid, that with respect to the question the noble Earl had addressed to him he should be happy to give his noble Friend all the information in his power on this subject. The circumstances connected with the letter of the 2nd of September to which his noble Friend had referred were these: It was represented to the Council by official authority that malignant cholera was raging at Dantsic and several of the principal ports in the Baltic, and the advice under which the Council acted in issuing the letter to which reference had been made, was given by one of the most skilful physicians of the present day. His noble Friend had complained of the letter of the 2nd of September as an act of severity and restriction on the part of the Privy Council; but his noble Friend was under some misapprehension in this respect, for if he would take the trouble of referring to the Act of the 6th Geo. IV., he would find that the Board of Customs had the power to send to any quarantine station any vessel arriving from a foreign port with any infected person on board. The late Quarantine Act allowed the Privy Council to give in each case such orders to the Board of Customs as the Case might require; and the letter of the 2nd of September mitigated several provisions of the existing law. His noble Friend said that he could not understand that letter. He was surprised at such an assertion, for to him it appeared that its meaning was clear enough. The letter mitigated the Act of George IV. very considerably, as it ordered those only who were actually attacked by cholera to be detained on board. He would not enter into any discussion with his noble Friend on the subject of contagion and non-contagion, for he knew that eminent physicians had not only differed from one another, but, at different periods, even from themselves, on these points. [The noble Earl here read, in a low voice, several conflicting extracts from the reports of the College of Physicians and of the Army Medical Board on the subject of contagion; and, in reply to a question of the Earl of St. Germans, said, that there were some physicians who denied contagion, but he believed that not merely three-fourths but nine-tenths of the profession advised all who consulted them to avoid contagion.] With regard to the news respecting La Plata, that vessel had only arrived that
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day, and the intelligence had only reached him that morning through the telegraph. He had immediately consulted with the physician attached to the Board of Privy Council, Sir W. Pym, and had given orders that the parties should be relieved from quarantine. The physician had gone down himself, and would communicate such orders as were necessary to the quarantine station.
The EARL of ST. GERMANS: Has any accommodation been provided for the parties on shore?
The EARL of LONSDALEhad already stated that he had sent down orders that the parties should be relieved. He also repeated his statement that he had sent down the physician of the Board to the quarantine station to give the proper directions.
Loan STANLEY of ALDERLEYwas uuderstood to remark upon the inconsistency of our sending a representative at the Sanitary Conference at Paris, to impress upon the other deputies that cholera was not conveyed by contagion, while we were renewing our quarantine restrictions in our own ports. The members of the Conference were of opinion, that cholera could not be conveyed by contagion, and a report had been made by a congress of American physicians, and had been recently published by the Board of Health in this country, in which it was stated to be their unanimous opinion that no quarantine regulations were of any avail in preventing the entrance of the cholera, if the atmospheric and other causes necessary for its production were present. It was not likely that we could make satisfactory progress with the Convention, if, while our representative at Paris was urging these views on the one hand, on the other the President of the Council was enforcing more stringent quarantine regulations with respect to cholera.
The EARL of LONSDALEsaid, that the regulations issued by the Privy Council were not more stringent, but were in fact a relaxation of the powers with which the Council were invested by the Act of George IV.
LORD STANLEY of ALDERLEYremarked, that it seemed very extraordinary that our representative at Paris, instructed by the Foreign Secretary, should there maintain views on this subject quite different from those entertained by the President of the Council.
The EARL of MALMESBURYalso protested against the idea that the repre-

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sentatives of the British Government had been instructed to abolish all regulations of quarantine; they had only been instructed to mitigate and regulate them, and to render the burden of them less intolerable; and that was their object in attending the Sanitary Conference at Paris. If his noble Friend fancied that he could persuade the representatives of foreign countries to believe that cholera and other diseases were not contagious, he believed that his noble Friend, on trying it, would find that he was very much mistaken; nor would any convention ever be concluded if we were to wait until we had brought them to that conviction. Whether diseases of this kind were infectious or contagious, he did not know; but foreign countries were convinced of this—that they were catching.
LORD STANLEY of ALDERLEYsaid, he did not suppose that the different nations of Europe could be induced to forego all quarantine regulations; but the greatest number of medical opinions were certainly against the contagious character of cholera.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEwas understood to say, that nothing could be more preposterous than to subject a vessel to quarantine for yellow fever in our latitude, and in the month of November. The yellow fever depended on the thermometer. It was never known to exist when the thermometer was below a certain point. It was well known in tropical climates it ceased its ravages with colder weather. In New Orleans it was well understood that the first frost put an end to the yellow fever. When we were pressing upon other Governments the propriety of relaxing their quarantine laws, it placed us in an awkward position to be found enforcing our restrictions with respect to a disease so unlikely to spread as the yellow fever.

RAILWAY LEGISLATION.
LORD REDESDALEwished to ask his noble Friend the Vice-President of the Board of Trade (Lord Colchester), whether there was any intention on the part of Her Majesty's Government to bring in any Bill for the regulation of railways. He believed that there was an almost universal opinion amongst persons in this country, with the exception of those personally interested in railways, that some further regulations should be adopted, and some further control exercised in regard to matters connected with these concerns. The accidents which had lately occurred, and which had certainly been more than usually numerous,
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had drawn the attention of the public to this matter; and he believed that the 3afety as well as the convenience of the public really required some attention on the part of the Government, and the adoption of some regulations which might enable them to interfere a little in these matters. He knew that there was some little difficulty in moving in this matter; because, whenever any attempt was made by the Government to interfere with them, it was urged that to interfere with the railway companies? would diminish their responsibility. But he was convinced that there were many points in the management of railways on which the interference of the Government would be most useful. His reason for drawing the attention of the House to this subject, arose partly from the responsibility which the House had cast upon him in the office in which they had placed him as their Chairman of Committees. It was supposed that that functionary should exercise an almost complete control over the regulations to be enforced with regard to Private Bills. Now, unquestionably from the manner in which the House had always supported the Chairman of Committees, he had considerable power; but still no Chairman of Committees, and certainly not he, for one, could presume to lay down on matters of this kind a code of legislation which he would feel justified in imposing on all railways whatever. This could only be done by Parliament itself acting legislatively at the instance of the Government. To him it appeared that all the railway companies stood in a position which rendered such a course of legislation justifiable—because for the last thirteen years a clause had been inserted in every Railway Act subjecting the companies to the operation of any general Act which might be introduced with respect to railways. No railway company, therefore, would have any right to complain, whatever the interference of the Government might be. He thought that advantage should be taken of the present Session for the introduction of a measure of the kind to which he had referred; for if it was allowed to pass without this being done, their power of obtaining a control over railway companies would be materially diminished. It was also most important that such a measure should be introduced on account of the character of many of the Bills likely to be introduced—Bills to effect important amalgamations. Now, it was impossible for any person to look to a great extension of

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amalgamations without some apprehensions as to the consequences that might arise from them to the public interests. To a certain extent he entertained no objection to the amalgamation of companies, but he thought that proposals for that end should he taken up only with the greatest caution. Measures should be taken to protect the public against the consequences which might naturally be expected to follow from some of these amalgamations, if they should he carried out, for they would certainly partake in a considerable degree of the nature of monopolies. It was only, therefore, in proceeding by a general measure, assuming the necessary powers of control, that they could expect to give the public confidence in the administration of railway business. He had to the last opposed the abolition of the Railway Commissions; and he hoped to see them re-established with more extended powers, and properly supported by the Government of the day, which they never had been before. There were many points as to which he thought it highly expedient that some power of control should be taken. For instance, there should be some authority able to regulate the proceedings of the railway companies in putting on and in taking off trains from different lines, for at present the conduct of the railway companies in regulating such matters was in many cases opposed to the convenience of the public. You found that when there were two railway companies conflicting with each other, you came by one to a point from which you must travel by another, and that the train by which you wished to proceed on your journey had started just ten minutes before your arrival by the train of the other company, and that you must wait three or four hours until you could start by another train. It could not be productive of any mischief to vest power in a general Board to correct such abuses on receiving a representation from the inhabitants of a district, or from another railway company; and it would he just to enforce such arrangements, for the lines were given to the companies by Parliament on the faith of their giving that accommodation to the public. There was another point on which he thought it necessary that Government should interfere with the management of the railway companies. There should be some stringent regulation to exact from them punctuality in their times of departure and arrival. Almost every accident on the railways arose from
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want of punctuality. A reform in railway management, by which punctuality should be enforced, would be more beneficial to individuals, and would even affect a greater number of persons, than the reform recently introduced by his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack into the Court of Chancery. In a new Parliament, like the present, it would be difficult to obtain that attention in the other House to the many Railway Bills which would come before them in the course of the present Session which their importance required, on account of the number of election petitions, which would necessarily occupy the time of many of those who were best qualified to act as Chairmen of Committees; and the consideration of these matters must consequently not only be more hurried than usual, but also in many cases be left to the decision of new and less experienced Members. It was on that account that he had drawn the attention of the Government to the subject thus early. If the Government were not prepared to introduce a general measure for the better regulation of railways, he trusted that, at least, they would frame beforehand some clauses, directed to the purposes he had specified, and to other matters of importance to the safety and convenience of the public, to be inserted in all Railway Bills in the present Session; but he believed they would find that proceeding by a general Act would be the least trouble to them, and more effective.
LORD COLCHESTERwas ready to acknowledge that this was a matter which the noble Lord had done well in bringing before Parliament, for it was one of great importance to the public safety and the public convenience. He was afraid the answer he had to give to the questions put might not be quite satisfactory to his noble Friend. The attention of the department to which he had the honour to belong was constantly devoted to this subject, but no new measure was at present in preparation. With respect to the number of new Railway Bills that might be expected to be introduced in the present Session, their information was at present necessarily very imperfect. They had only the official notices inserted in the Gazette by which to judge of the probable number, and the entire number would not be known until the 30th of November, the last day for depositing the notices, and even then it must be remembered that many intended undertakings probably

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would not be carried out, and perhaps the Bills not even introduced into Parliament. At present the number of Bills for which notices had been given was forty-two, fifteen of which were for the incorporation of new companies, thirteen for the construction of new works, eight for continuations, five for amalgamations, and one for extension of powers. The whole subject, in the opinion of Government, was of such difficulty and importance, as only to be adequately dealt with by a Select Committee, and, therefore, Government had come to the determination of moving the appointment of a Select Committee to consider it. At present he was not able to give a more decided answer to the questions, than that the subject was engaging the earnest attention of Government.
LORD BEAUMONTobserved, that in his opinion, the necessity of an Act respecting the management of railways did not depend upon the number of Bills which in the course of the present Session would be introduced into the Legislature. What they wanted was this, a code of laws—a general code of laws—respecting the management of railways, which should apply equally to all railways, both those that might obtain Bills in future, and those that had already obtained them, and had consequently now no occasion to come before the Legislature. A Bill might be framed so as to prevent the vexatious proceedings which now so often take place between conflicting railway interests, and which always result in inconvenience to the passengers, and loss to one or other of the parties. What they wanted was such a general Bill as would lay down a rule to enable persons who had grounds of complaint to right themselves. Of course such a Bill could alone properly emanate from Government; and he (Lord Beaumont) thought, therefore, he might ask his noble Friend if, in the Office of the Board of Trade, this question had been considered, whether in consequence of the numerous accidents which had recently occurred on railways, and the enormous loss incurred by the necessity of applying to Parliament for amalgamations and other desirable objects by separate and special Bills, the Government intended to introduce any measure of a general nature which would put an end to this state of things, by an enactment in the nature of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, which would be of general application?
The EARL of DERBYthought, however
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desirable theoretically it might be that there should be one code of regulations which should guide and govern all railway companies, past, present, and to come, and that Parliament should, by an ex post facto regulation, lay down rules for the guidance of a railway company, thus interfering with its internal management, not only would it be impossible for Government to carry any measure through Parliament, but, if it were possible, it would be an extraordinary interference with the internal regulations of railway companies, which were most of them much better judges of what was conducive to their own and the public interest, and much more capable of attending to it than any Government Board could be. He could not, therefore, hold out to the noble Lord who had just sat down any expectation that it was the intention of Government to introduce any measures of railway regulations which might tend, according to the sanguine views which the noble Lord took, to render impossible the occurrence of inconveniences and accidents to the public, or which would amount to any serious interference with the powers and privileges conferred by Parliament on the existing companies. He would not, however, hesitate to say that, as experience showed from day to day the necessity of legislation for particular purposes, and as opportunities arose for dealing with particular questions, he thought it exceedingly desirable, and indeed necessary, that they should avail themselves of the fresh references to Parliament that would become requisite on the part of the companies, for the purpose of introducing such modifications of the existing system as experience had shown to be necessary or desirable for the public interest. One question raised by his noble Friend in which Parliament might probably interfere with advantage, was in the connection of different trains with different railways communicating with each other. In such cases there might usefully be given some power of arbitration or arrangement under a Government Board to prevent the inconvenience now inflicted upon the public, for the purpose of making them travel the greatest length possible upon the respective lines of the different companies. But any measure of that kind would require much care, because it might involve an interference with the details of management; and their Lordships must recollect that in every case where Parliament insisted on particular times being observed, Parliament must become responsible also for the in-

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convenience and danger which might be introduced by running corresponding trains on other lines, and which, if great attention were not paid, might be of a very serious description. There was another subject to which he wished to call the attention of the House, and with respect to which he considered that a great mistake had been made by neglecting it at an early period of the existence of the railway system—he meant the making provision for the conveyance both of mails and troops by the different companies. He believed that at present Government was absolutely and entirely in the power of a railway company as to the terms—not on which the mails would be conveyed, indeed—but on which other conditions most essential to the public service, in the conveyance of troops and similar objects, would be performed. Therefore, when railway companies came to Parliament for new and amended Bills to extend the powers they already possessed, he thought the opportunity should be taken of introducing such fresh regulations for the furtherance of the public service by facilitating the conveyance either of mails or troops, as might be found expedient. His noble Friend the Postmaster General (the Earl of Hardwicke) had very carefully considered this subject, and prepared clauses which would be submitted to Parliament for its approval, and which, if adopted, would provide greatly increased facilities for the transmission of mails and troops by railway companies. He differed, however, from the noble Lord as to the extent to which Parliament ought to legislate for the regulation of existing railways.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, he had heard with great satisfaction the remarks of the noble Earl; because he was fully aware of the great inconvenience to which the Post Office and other departments were put by the present system. The sum paid by the public for the conveyance of mails was now of an enormous amount, and exceeded, when he left office, 400.000 l. a year. He was sorry the noble Earl had not held out greater hopes that the subject would be considered by Government. He did not approve of ex post facto legislation. It would be very unfair to resort to any measures of that kind, except when railway companies came to ask for some boon. He thought, however, there would be no hardship whatever in taking measures by which redress would be afforded in case of the breach of public engagements. It was very desirable that consideration should be given to the sub-
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ject, with the view of remedying the present imperfect states of railway legislation.
The EARL of HARROWBYdenied that in any contract the Government were at the mercy of the railway companies. It ought to be remembered that the public required from the latter a vast amount of duty. Look at the vast bulk of newspapers and books which the railways conveyed, and for which the means of transit were never required under the old system. This should be remembered when noble Lords were told of the large amount of payment to railways by the Post Office. All experience showed that railway amalgamation, under wise and proper regulations, was the best system. Parliament might order trains to be run at particular hours, but they could never regulate the action of hostile parties. Companies with rival interests always began with extravagant competition, and then combination eventually followed, to cover the expense of all the losses caused by competition. It would have been much better if Parliament had carried out properly the scheme of Lord Dalhousie. If they had not left the construction of lines to the mad speculation of private parties, they would have had a much more economical and efficient service. The best remedy was, to keep in view the original views of Lord Dalhousie, and to assign somewhat of a monopoly to each railway company over their respective districts, under proper regulations for the protection of the public. Monopolies on railways were, and must be. Let Parliament avow that they were, and deal with them as such, and all would be easy. But if they treated railways as undertakings to which the ordinary law of supply and demand was applicable, causes of complaint against railway management would always exist.
EARL GRANVILLEdoubted whether so many towns would be now connected by railway, or whether so many trains would be run, if the Government had originally assumed greater responsibility, or had been intrusted with the management of railway matters. He thought it desirable that a Parliamentary Committee should be appointed. In many instances the railway companies would be grateful to have some of the questions between them settled by the superior authority of Parliament.
LORD BATEMANsaid, that a passenger in Yorkshire ought to have the power of booking himself through to London without being compelled to change his carriage when he came upon the line of any other

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company. On some matters of this kind legislative interference would be desirable.
The DUKE of MONTROSEthought cooperation between railway companies hardly to be expected, unless a controlling power were vested in Government. To show the necessity of an improved system, they had only to look to the frequency of accidents at present. He remembered on one occasion travelling to Scotland by express train. An accident occurred; but as no lives were lost, he supposed for that reason the circumstance was not noticed in the newspapers. The cause was, that trains of several different railways passed along one line; and while such a state of things existed, it was fraught with the greatest danger. He understood that an inspector from the Board of Trade went down to examine the line, and that he recommended the erection of a bridge; but the recommendation was disregarded by the railway, and the Board had no power to enforce it.
LORD COLCHESTER,alluding to the case referred to by the noble Duke, said that it was but just to the engineer of the railway, Mr. Stephenson, to state that when the matter was represented to him, he undertook to make a bridge sufficiently wide to prevent accidents.

FUNERAL OF THE LATE DUKE OF WELLINGTON.
The EARL of DERBY: My Lords, I will, by moving the adjournment of the House, put myself strictly in order in addressing a few observations to your Lordships on a subject to which I am anxious to call your Lordships' attention. My Lords, I desire to express the deep satisfaction and the deep thankfulness which I have experienced, and which I am sure your Lordships will have experienced, at the more than satisfactory result which attended the great solemnity of yesterday. My Lords, I think it is matter of humble thankfulness to Almighty God that an event which brought together such masses of persons as never before have congregated, under any circumstances whatever, in this great metropolis, should have passed over, not only without any signal calamity, but without being attended by any—or rather attended by so few — of those casualties which are contingent upon every great congregation of persons, even upon a much smaller scale, but which in this case were rendered more probable by the necessarily hasty and hurried manner in which many of the preparations were made for the accommodation of that greatmultitude. My Lords,
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I think that I may even say that the providential change in the weather in the course of yesterday was no light circumstance, not only in adding to the comfort of the vast multitude assembled to witness that solemnity, but also in diminishing, to a great extent, the amount of risk, of confusion, and of danger which all ceremonials of this kind must necessarily more or less involve. But it would be most unjust if I were to withhold—and if I did so your Lordships, I am sure, would consider that I was committing an injustice—if I were to withhold the tribute of my applause and satisfaction at the perfect organisation, the admirable arrangements, the entire discipline with which the whole of that great ceremony was marshalled and conducted, and at the discretion and the judgment which were manifested by all those civil and military authorities who took a part in carrying out this national testimonial. My Lords, nothing could have been more admirable than the temper and the patience with which both the troops and the police conducted themselves — the troops under arms, and the police on duty, for a period of at least eleven or twelve hours, and engaged during the whole of that time in unremitting exertions in preserving order. But, my Lords, we must not omit to do justice also to another class, without whose signal co-operation and admirable conduct the best arrangements might have been marred—I do not say that the efforts of the military and the police would have been unavailing— but which doubtless rendered that task, arduous as it must have been under any circumstances, a matter of comparative ease and safety. My Lords, I allude to that upon which we may look with pride and gratification—I mean the admirable temper, patience, forbearance, and good conduct which was manifested by the whole of these incredible masses. When we consider how large a proportion of the population of these United Kingdoms was for that single day crowded together in the streets of this metropolis; when you remember, as those at least remember to whose lot it fell to take part in the procession, and who saw it throughout its whole length and breadth—when you remember that on a line of route three miles in length, extending from Grosvenor-place to St. Paul's Cathedral, there was not a single unoccupied foot of ground, and that you passed through a living sea of faces, all turned to look upon that great spectacle—when you saw every house, every window, every

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housetop loaded with persons anxious to pay their last tribute of respect to the memory of England's greatest son—when you saw those persons (those, at least, within the streets) remaining with entire and unflinching patience for many hours in a position in which movement was hardly possible, and yet that scarce a single accident occurred to the most feeble woman or child amid that vast mass— when, throughout the whole of that length, not only was a perfect decorum preserved, and a ready assistance given to the efforts of the police and the military, but there was exhibited no unseemly desire merely to witness that magnificent spectacle, no light and thoughtless applause at the splendour of that spectacle; when you saw how the people of England, in the awful silence of those vast crowds, testified in the most emphatic manner the sense in which every man among them felt the public loss which England had sustained—I know not, my Lords, how you may have looked upon this manifestation of public feeling and good sense and order, but I know this, that as I passed along those lines it was with pride and satisfaction I felt that I was a fellow-countryman of those who knew so well how to regulate and control themselves; and I could not help entertaining a hope that those foreign visitors who have done us and themselves the honour of assisting at this great ceremonial might, upon this occasion, as upon the 1st of May, 1851, bear witness in their own countries how safely and to what extent a people may be relied upon, on whom the strongest hold of their Government is their own reverence and respect for the free institutions of their country, and the principles of popular self-government controlled and modified by constitutional monarchy. My Lords, when we had passed over the long line of the procession, and had entered into that magnificent edifice, I think that few who were present can, to the latest moment of their lives, forget the scene which they witnessed there. Who will forget the effect when, throughout the length and breadth of that vast cathedral, the pealing anthem swelled the note not of praise, but of sorrow? Who will forget the effect when, in ready acquiescence to the request publicly communicated, within that immense edifice 16,000 voices joined simultaneously in the responses to the common prayer of every Christian man? And, my Lords, when the close of that impressive solemnity ap-
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proached—when, amidst solemn and mournful music, slowly, and inch by inch, the coffin which held the illustrious dead descended into its last and honoured resting-place, my Lords, I was near enough to see the countenances of many of the veteran companions of his labours and of his triumphs—near enough to hear the labouring breath which scarcely checked the tears which would not have disgraced the cheek of England's hardiest warriors, as they looked down for the last time upon all that was mortal of their late mighty leader. Honour, my Lords, to the people who so know how to reverence their illustrious dead! Honour to those friendly nations who, renewing their old companionship in his triumphs and his glory, joined in the general tribute of respect to him whose renown was not English, nor European, but world-wide, and who associated their own countries for the last time with the name and the glories of Wellington! And, my Lords, honour—let me say it also—to that great and friendly nation, our relations with whom in times long gone by, and I trust never to return, incapacitated her from participating in the national triumph with which we celebrated his military fame, but who yet, my Lords, in joining in the public mourning over the departed hero, forgot for a time their old national prejudices, and by the presence of their representative testified their respect and their veneration for his memory! If they thought of him as a foe at all, it was as one who had been so in the discharge of his duty to his country—it was as a foeman worthy of their steel; and they remembered, perhaps, with pardonable pride, that never were his military talents and abilities more highly tested, and more severely tried, than when opposed in the field to the valour of their troops, and the science and the skill of their commanders. My Lords, we have paid the last tribute to our illustrious hero's mortal remains; we have consigned him to the grave; but in so consigning him, I trust we shall not forget, in the burial of our greatest warrior, that we have buried perhaps the man among us who had the greatest horror of the miseries of war:—that every effort, every energy of his mind, in the field, in the camp, and in the senate, was directed not to the mere attainment of victory, of fame, or of glory, but that the hope to which he always looked forward was, that the victories for which he struggled would be the means of securing to his country and

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to the world the blessings of lasting peace. My Lords, I trust that in burying him we have not taken leave of and buried the recollection of the principles which he supported and advocated. I am sure that I am speaking in the spirit of him whose loss we all deplore when I say (and I feel confident your Lordships agree with me), that I look upon war in itself as the greatest curse with which a country can be afflieted, and upon unnecessary war as the greatest crime of which a statesman can be guilty. I am sure, my Lords, that the great and paramount object of this country is the maintenance of a firm and honourable peace; but I am no less convinced of the necessity of that principle which it was his constant duty to inculcate upon successive Governments—namely, that in order to maintain the security and permanence of peace, every nation must have within itself those means of self-defence and self-dependence which should not provoke aggression by its weakness, more especially if to that weakness be added the possession of unbounded wealth. My Lords, I trust that we shall bear this in mind, not in words only, but in our actions and policy, and that setting aside all political and party considerations, we shall conour in this opinion—that, in order to be peaceful, England must he powerful; but that she ought to be powerful, only to be more securely peaceful.
House adjourned to Monday next.