Lords Sitting of 11 May 1852

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1ª Bishopric of Christchurch (New Zealand).
2a Repayment of Advances (Ireland) Acts Amendment.

MAYNOOTH COLLEGE (IRELAND) ACT.
The DUKE of ARGYLLsaid, he had given notice of the presentation of a number of petitions on the subject of Maynooth; he did not rise, however, to enter into the general question, but for a much more limited object. In common with many other noble Lords connected with Scotland, he daily received petitions from that country against the grant to Maynooth, and praying its immediate and absolute abolition. He considered it respectful to the petitioners—taking into account their numbers,
character, and influence—that he should there state the grounds on which he was unable to support the prayer of their petitions. He considered the policy on which the College of Maynooth was originally founded as more than doubtful; and though a great alteration was made in the state of the question when Parliament consented to remove its endowment from the footing of an annual vote to that of a permanent endowment, he held that it was open to Parliament at any time to reconsider the question. But he observed that almost all these petitions proceeded upon one ground—that of principle—the question of policy was referred to perhaps but incidentally, and as of secondary importance; but almost all the petitions proceeded upon the principle that it was morally wrong to grant public money to support institutions connected with a religion in the truth of which they did not concur. Their Lordships might be disposed to think that this objection had already been sufficiently dealt with; and probably that was so. The principle, however, had been very widely received out of doors, and would materially affect the character of a future Parliament; and he was anxious to state why he could not give it his assent. He could not understand what idea the petitioners entertained of the composition of our Government or Legislature. If they considered this country as comprising only one religious community, or if the House of Commons—the legislative body charged with the distribution of the public funds—consisted only of members of one religious body, the views of the petitioners might be more easily understood. But he was unable to see how, in a country like this, cut up by religious divisions, and governed by a Legislature in which all religious bodies were represented, the Members of the Legislature could be considered individually responsible for sums of money being voted for the support of religious institutions of which all did not approve. It must be borne in mind that the endowment of Maynooth was not the only pecuniary endowment of religious institutions. He did not, of course, include the greatest—the Established Church—because he would never admit that its preservation stood on the same footing with the support of grants out of the public treasury. He alluded to grants of money out of the public purse, and would remind their Lordships of the Regium Donum to the Presbyterian clergy

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of Ulster. It might be said that the differences between different Protestant churches were less than those which separated us from the Roman Catholics. But he was persuaded many in both Houses of Parliament would feel uncomfortable if they thought they were responsible for the endowment of the Presbyterian Church. If the principles, indeed, laid down by a certain section of the Anglican Church were pursued to their logical results, they would render them more reluctant to incur any responsibility for the support of Presbyterianism than Romanism. And so as to our Colonies, in which a similar principle was illustrated. Then, again, as to education. It was impossible to deny that the grants made out of the public money for the purposes of education were closely connected with religious teaching; and were, in fact, grants to the different religious bodies, specially in their character as such. It was impossible, without reversing the policy which had been pursued in this country on the subject for a long period to accede to the principle laid down by these petitioners. The question was purely one of policy; and he saw with great regret the course pursued in Scotland on this subject. In many cases pledges had been actually extorted from candidates requiring them to vote against the continuance of the endowment. In other cases, some of the most important constituencies were unable to unite in the support of con-didates in consequence of this question. He feared the result would be, in many cases, that inferior men would be chosen, and superior men shut out. He saw with pain men trying to square their opinions with the prejudices of the people they addressed; and it was always a melancholy spectacle to see men so paltering with their convictions for party purposes. By the Constitution of the realm their Lordships were elevated into the rank of hereditary legislators, removed above and beyond the temptations to these sacrifices of principle. That position imposed on them a corresponding responsibility. It was their part to come forward and express their opinions honestly on any great subject upon which popular feelings were excited; and when they thought that the course pursued was detrimental to the true policy of the country, firmly to protest against it. He reserved to himself the right of acting on his own opinion upon the question when the proper occasion arrived; but, he re-
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peated, that he regretted this question should be agitated on grounds which must prove most offensive to their Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen, and which went much further than the petitioners at all anticipated. The noble Duke them presented a great number of petitions from different parts of Scotland, praying for the repeal of the Maynooth College (Ireland) Act.

NATIVES OF INDIA.
LORD MONTEAGLEpresented a petition from George James Gordon, that certain Propositions set forth in his petition connected with the Position and Political Rights of the Natives of India might be taken into consideration. His Lordship said that this petition, although it was signed by only one person, represented, as he had good authority for stating, the feelings of many enlightened, wealthy, and respectable Natives of India on the subject of their position and their political rights under the last Act for the renewal of the East India Company's Charter. The exclusion of the natives of India from holding offices in the Government of their own country had been rigidly acted up to in former times; but a clause, recommended or supported, as he believed, by the high authority of Lord William Bentinck, was made part of the last Charter Act of the 3rd and 4th of William IV., and affirmed the principle of an opposite policy. It was to the following effect:—
"That no native of our territories in the East Indies, nor any natural-born subject of His Majesty resident therein, should, by reason of his religion, place of birth, descent, colour, or any of them, be disabled from holding any place, office, or employment under the same Company."
In consequence of that enactment, which established their eligibility for the public service of India, a considerable number of natives had been introduced by Lord W. Bentinck into what were called "uncovenanted offices," both revenue and judicial, in which he believed their conduct had been highly creditable; yet, notwithstanding his authority, notwithstanding likewise the result of the experiment tried, and the spirit of the clause he had cited, there had been a practical exclusion of them from all "covenanted services," as they were called, from the passing of the last Charter up to the present time. The Charter Act was construed so as to declare the

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eligibility of natives to "uncovenanted" offices only, whereas its words are general, and without such limitation. In that interval there had been a great development of education in India, and a great expansion of intellect and of knowledge among the natives—circumstances which had not only increased a sense of the oppressiveness of the law thus construed, hut had also created a greater desire on the part of the natives to be employed in the public service. All this was fully stated in the petition which he then held in his hand; and petitions to the same effect would soon approach their Lordships' table from native landed proprietors, merchants, and traders of Madras, Calcutta, and Bombay. When such petitions were laid upon their Lordships' table, men well acquainted with India would be able to inform their Lordships how far they represented the sentiments of all the weight, and wealth, and intelligence of the educated natives of India. It was due to the petitioners who had placed the petition in his hands, that he should state what was its prayer. They adverted to the approaching renewal of the East India Company's Charter; they also called their Lordships' attention to the present state of the finances of India; they impressed on their Lordships the necessity of applying the most stringent measures of economy to the expenditure of the Government in Europe and in Asia; they asked for the abolition of useless offices, suggested the expediency of reducing many of the official salaries, and recommended an alteration in the tenure of certain appointments, on the ground that at present India lost the services of some of the best officers just at the moment when by experience and knowledge they were best qualified to fill their situations. They also complained that, although natives had distinguished themselves in subordinate offices, they were excluded from holding the higher class of appointments, and prayed their Lordships that a more generous construction should be practically put on the 87th Section of the Act, by enlarging the field of employment for the native subjects of Her Majesty. They also called attention to the necessity of completing the system of education by adding to schools and colleges an Asiatic university. They also complained of utter neglect shown to the labours of the law, on which high intellectual powers and a considerable amount of revenue had been expended. They called for the enactment of a consistent code,
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and the adoption of general measures for further amending the state of the law in India. He (Lord Monteagle) wished the attention of the Committee upstairs to be specially directed to these allegations of the petition, because the people of India now took a deep interest in what took place in this country with respect to Indian affairs, and in British legislation as affecting their interests, and they were now more sensitive than ever with regard to the legislation and even the discussions of the Imperial Parliament, in England, as affecting their rights and interests. He wished also to call their attention to the evidence which had been given by the late Lord William Bentinck after his return to England, when examined before the Select Committee on Steain Navigation with respect to the growing capacity and intelligence of the people of India, which were advancing not only in proportion to the diffusion of education, but in proportion to the development of their material interests. This progress could not be arrested or even retarded. His Lordship had said that "every indigo and coffee plantation, the Glocester mills, the works of every description moved by steam, the iron foundries, the coal mines worked after the European fashion, and the other great establishments which we see around us in Calcutta, are so many great schools of instruction, the founders of which are the real improvers of their country;" and he further added that, among the causes of progress now so rapidly in action to render India so different from what it had been twenty years ago, were to be enumerated every commercial enterprise, every manufacturing improvement, and every extension of agriculture—all which had tended to improve and to expand the capacity of the people of India, and to stimulate their desire for still further progress and advancement. In presenting this petition, he neither sought to prejudge the question, or to commit himself to a distinct opinion. But he hoped that he had convinced the House that the subjects he had touched upon were fit subjects for examination before the Committee, and that an inquiry which did not include them would be unsatisfactory and incomplete.
Petition read, and referred to the Select Committee on the East India Company's Charter.
House adjourned to Friday next.