Lords Sitting of 3 May 1852

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1ª Enfranchisement of Copyholds; Ecclesiastical Muniments.
2ª Linen, &c. Manufactures (Ireland); Poor Relief Act Continuance; Loan Societies.
3ª Copyright Amendment.
Royal Assent. —Exchequer Bills; St. Albans Disfranchisement; Sheep, &c. Contagious Disorders Prevention.

DRAINAGE OF LANDS,(IRELAND).
The EARL of ROSSEsaid, that certainly it was not without much consideration that he ventured to ask their Lordships, in the terms of the Motion of which he had given notice, to grant a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of the Acts relating to the Drainage of Lands in Ireland, as administered by the Board of Works. It was with great reluctance that he troubled the House on this subject, for he was aware that' attendance on a Select Committee required a sacrifice of valuable time: but the complaints, not from one district alone, but from all parts of Ireland where these works had been carried on, were so general with respect to the course which had been pursued by the Board of Works—and indeed evidence of the fact

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was to be found in the reports furnished by the Board itself—that it appeared to him to be absolutely necessary that a searching inquiry should be made. When on a former evening he presented a petition on this subject, the noble Lord at the head of the Government expressed an opinion that a Government inquiry would probably be sufficient; but that if it would not, he should have no objection to grant a Parliamentary inquiry. Being anxious not to take up the time of their Lordships unnecessarily, he had consulted with those whose opinions on this subject were most valuable, and had asked them whether a Government inquiry would answer the purpose which he, and those who thought with him, had in view. It appeared to them, and to him also, after some deliberation, that the result of a Government inquiry would not give satisfaction in any quarter. The only mode of giving general satisfaction appeared to them to be an inquiry before their Lordships, when all the facts which were necessary could be fully brought forward and thoroughly investigated, and where the ground might be laid for a prompt and effectual remedy. He was most happy in being able to inform their Lordships that in laying down the ground on which he based his Motion, he should not have occasion to trespass long on their attention. Without at all entering into details or bringing forward a single matter of dispute, there were a few plain, broad, and simple facts, admitted on all hands, which he thought would of themselves form quite a sufficient case to convince their Lordships that an inquiry was necessary. Their Lordships were, doubtless, aware that for many years past very large engineering works had been in progress in various districts of Ireland to relieve the land from superfluous water. They were carried on at the expense of the parties to be benefited, the immediate funds being provided by loans, partly from the local proprietors, and partly from the Treasury, the same as under the Land Improvement Act for England; and the loans were secured as a first charge upon the land. It appeared from the returns for which he had moved at the close of the last Session, that the amount which had been actually expended in this manner, up to the 30th of September, was 1,375,559 l., and that the estimate of the total cost, when the works should be completed, was about two millions sterling. But then there were other works which were not actually commenced, but which had been
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in some degree examined, while in other cases the surveys and estimates were complete; and, as far as he could judge from looking over the returns in their Lordships' library, the whole cost of the works when completed, if they were all carried out, would amount to about five millions. Such was the magnitude and such the scale of the operations which he was now anxious to submit to an investigation before a Committee. These works were carried on in some respects in the same way as similar works were in England; but there was this important difference, that in England all such works were carried on under private Acts of Parliament. In Ireland they might be carried on in a similar manner; but the Legislature, with the view of affording increased facilities for the execution of such works, had provided in the first instance, that where the assent of the proprietors representing two-thirds of the lands to be benefited had been obtained, but subsequently where the assent of more than one-half of the proprietors had been obtained, that then the Board of Works should be invested with powers similar to those of a Committee under a Private Act. So that while in England there was one way in which such works could be carried on, namely, under a Private Act; in Ireland there were two ways—by a Private Act, and also by certain Public Acts administered by the Board of Works. Practically, as far as he was aware, no works were at present carried on in Ireland under a Private Act. The Board of Works, having obtained the assent of the proprietors representing more than one-half of the land to be benefited by the proposed works, were invested with very large and perhaps necessary powers. The proprietors, on the other hand, although they might observe that the works were carried on upon a much larger scale than ever they assented to—although they might see that the estimates must be largely exceeded—yet they had no power, and no control. The Legislature had, probably very wisely, entrusted enormous powers to the Board of Works, enabling them to carry out improvements without the intervention of those who were called upon to pay for them. Now, the principal complaints made against the Board of Works were the following. The first was, that the cost of the works in progress was greatly in excess of the estimate. The proof of the complaint was to be found in the return laid upon their Lordships' table at the beginning of the Session, There were about

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193 of these works, and they were arranged in alphabetical order. The first was at Ardee, the original estimate for which was 8,388 l.; and the total amount that had been expended up to the present time was 17,820 l.; while the works were still unfinished, and nobody could tell how much they might ultimately cost. The next were the works at Bonis in Ossory, where the estimate was 3,486 l.; and the amount that had been actually expended reached the sum of 9,296 l. The next case that he would mention was the works at Bandon, the original estimate for which was 47,329 l.; but the present estimate of the cost of completing the works was no less a sum than 76,000 l., and the proprietors had no assurance that they would be completed at that amount. He would not weary their Lordships by going over the rest of the cases in detail; but the summary of the whole of these 193 works was, that up to the present time 1,179,374 l. had been expended upon them; and the Board's present estimate of the cost of completing them was 1,863,168 l. He thought that return proved that the first complaint to which he had directed their Lordships' attention, namely, that the Board had largely exceeded the estimates, was well founded. And it must be remembered that these estimates were not like the estimates of an architect employed to erect a fancy edifice, or perhaps some great national building, where he would have the public purse at his back; but these estimates purported to be estimates similar to those that were made by a contractor for his own guidance, when he undertook the works himself; and there was ample proof that the fullest assurances were given in various places, that the estimates were of that character—that under no circumstances would they be exceeded—that there was a large margin taken for contingencies—that the character of the Board of Works was an ample security that they would be executed for the sum for which they undertook to execute them. The next complaint was, that the works were not executed by contract. In this country, he believed in every case, the committee under a Private Act took this course. They appointed an engineer, who prepared a survey, with an estimate giving detailed specifications, and then the work was put up for contract. But the Board of Works had pursued quite an opposite course, having appointed their own engineers, their own surveyors, clerks, and in fact a large staff, and sent them to carry out each individual
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work—just in the same way as a gentleman sent his steward. It was obvious that a system of that kind might be liable to great abuse. The total annual cost of this large staff for the Drainage department he found came nearly to 30,000 l.— a tolerable amount of patronage for one officer in a public board. The third complaint was, that the accounts had not been bonâ fide brought within the reach of the proprietors. Now, where works were carried on, not by contract, but in this loose manner, with engineers, surveyors, clerks, and other persons, over whom, perhaps, the Board could not exercise any effective supervision, it was obvious that it would have been advisable to have had the attention of the local proprietors directed to the accounts of the expenditure, and thus to have secured a more perfect check than could otherwise have possibly in all circumstances been exercised over the servants of the Board. But so far from keeping the resident proprietary aware. of what was going on, and thus enabling them to act as a check, the complaint was that the Board of Works had not complied with the provision of the Act of Parliament, which required that every year a statement of the accounts should be deposited with the clerk of the peace of each county. He was not prepared to say that this complaint was well founded throughout the whole of Ireland, because he had not felt that it was his business to go to every clerk of the peace for the county in Ireland to make the inquiry; but he could state that in King's County there were several works in progress: he had asked the clerk of the peace there whether the Act had been complied with or not, and he found that it had not, and that the accounts had not been deposited with the clerks of the peace. The fourth complaint was, that, having obtained the assent of the proprietors to works on a small scale, the Board had undertaken works on a large scale, without the assent of the proprietors, and left them unfinished after expending the whole amount of the original estimates. He would illustrate this complaint by adverting to one instance, respecting which he had made particular inquiry. He had examined the printed survey and estimates furnished to the proprietors before the work was undertaken, and also the estimate, when the whole sum was found to be expended, and the Board called upon them to assent to a much larger advance money. In addition to this a correspondence had taken place between the Board

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of Works and the proprietors, which he had had the advantage of seeing; and although he could not refer to that correspondence because it had not yet been pre sented to their Lordships, still he might be allowed merely to say that, having perused that correspondence, he felt the more confident that in the statement he was now making he was not misleading their Lordships. In the case of the Brusna drainage, as he had already stated, the original estimate was 47.329 l., and the present estimate had increased the amount to 76,000 l. A very long interval elapsed betwen the survey of the works and their actual commencement, so that if any works could be said to have been undertaken after apparently mature deliberation, they were the works to which he was now alluding. With some difficulty the assent of the proprietors to this work was obtained, many of them thinking that the outlay of 47,000 l. would not pay; but they had the distinct assurance that, whether it would pay or not, at all events, under no circumstances would the work cost more. At length, in July last, the proprietors were furnished with the book which he held in his hand, purporting to be a fresh survey and estimate, stating what further sums would be necessary for the work. He begged their Lordships' attention to this point, as affording, in the instance of a particular work taken as an example, a proof that the Board, in a variety of instances, without consulting the proprietors, or having ascertained their wishes, had altered the works to a larger scale, and having expended the whole of the money, had called upon the proprietors to assent to the expenditure of perhaps as much more. The Board stated as an excuse for the excess over the original estimate, that that excess was caused in the first instance by a complete change in the plan originally proposed, namely, the adoption of a new river course, instead of following the old one. It might be asked, what right had the Board of Works to depart from the original plan to any considerable extent? As far as he could collect from the reports in their Lordships' library, the excuse was, that it was done for the benefit of the proprietors. The proprietors differed altogether from this, and stated that the cost of the works in some instances would exceed the fee-simple of the land. But even if the object of the alterations was the benefit of the proprietors, what right had the Board to make them, and to incur additional expense, without the assent of those who had
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to pay it? He had already stated the four principal complaints which he wished a Committee of their Lordships to inquire into. Some might ask, what motive could the Board of Works have had for carrying out these improvements in a different way from what they originally intended, and for conducting them upon a much larger scale, without the consent of the proprietors? All he could say was, that in a question of this nature he knew nothing of motives—he had done his duty in stating to their Lordships what he believed to be facts; and he was quite sure that the only investigation that would be satisfactory to the country in a matter where it was considered there had been great dereliction of duty and abuse of power, was an investigation, conducted under the authority of Parliament. The Select Committee for which he asked would not interfere with the very important Committee now sitting upstairs, on the Irish Consolidated Annuities. Indeed, he would be sorry to enter into this inquiry without the assistance of noble Lords serving on that other Committee; but it was very desirable that the preliminary arrangements should be made so that, when the Committee did undertake its labours, the inquiry should be begun without less of time. The noble Earl concluded by moving for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the Operation of the Acts relating to the Drainage of Lands in Ireland, as administered by the Board of Works.
The EARL of DERBYadmitted that the subject was one of considerable importance and interest, the importance being no less than providing an entirely new system of arterial drainage for a large portion of Ireland. In many cases that system would involve the altering the course of rivers, and other changes, providing a sufficient outfall by which a large portion of that country should be provided with drainage— measures necessarily involving great operations, and consequently a very great expenditure. The powers vested in the Board of Works were of a very extensive character, and they necessarily must be for carrying out operations on such a large scale; and he was by no means prepared to say that a Board invested with such extensive powers ought not to be very diligently watched, not only by the proprietors of land, but also by the public, who more indirectly have an interest in the due discharge of these duties by such a body. He did not, therefore, intend to offer any opposition to the Motion of his noble

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Friend (the Earl of Rosse) in his Motion for a Committee of Inquiry as to the practical working of the present system. At the same time he begged to disclaim any intention of prejudging the question, or of casting any blame whatever upon the Board of Works, for results which frequently were not under their control. He was afraid that all their Lordships had found by experience that whenever a great work was undertaken, whether of drainage, improvement, or building, it was completed at an expense considerably larger than was expected, or the science and skill of the most able architect or engineer could have foreseen. But in this case, when they looked at the large scale of the works in progress, they could easily understand that there must sometimes be a considerably larger outlay than was originally contemplated. In such cases he would not at all deny what the noble Earl (the Earl of Rosse) had said, that if the total charge was to be determined by the Commissioners, they ought to have the consent of the proprietors. But he could at the same time conceive many cases where the Commissioners would be justified in extending their operations, and incurring increased expense. He might here mention that the Board of Works was presided over by a gentleman whose name would give the best security that could be given for efficiency and ability—Mr. Griffiths; and he was sure the name of that gentleman would be recognised as that of one who had conferred important benefits on Ireland: and that he had succeeded in carrying out with great industry and success the various operations with which he had been connected, would be readily acknowledged by all who were acquainted with that country. It might be as his noble Friend (the Earl of Rosse) had said, that the staff, employed by the Board of Works was a very large and expensive staff; and if that were so, it was a fair subject for inquiry. But when his noble Friend complained that the Board of Works had not put up the works to contract, but had carried on its operations by their own agents, and their own staff, he must say he thought they had exercised a sound discretion in doing so, and that that was a better mode than trusting to contractors, for the sake of apparently greater economy, but which ultimately would be found to be attended with neither greater economy nor the same amount of success. At the same time this was a question which he (the Earl of Derby) did not at all like to prejudge—
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the Commissioners themselves were satisfied they had discharged the duty for which they were appointed, and they were very far from shrinking from any inquiry— even a hostile inquiry—still less from such an inquiry as his noble Friend proposed to institute, which would be not an inquiry of hostility, but one in a fair and liberal spirit. At the present moment the Commissioners were preparing a Report for Parliament, which would very shortly be laid before both Houses, and would embrace, he feared, a very voluminous correspondence; but it would place Parliament fairly in possession of all the facts, and he thought that until that Report was ready, the Committee would probably do better if they deferred any practical operations till that correspondence was laid before them. He could not offer any opposition to the Committee; and he was glad the noble Earl (the Earl of Rosse) had adverted to one point, namely, the services rendered by the noble Lords who were lately sitting on the Irish Consolidated Annuities Inquiry, which was in some degree cognate with the one his noble Friend proposed; and he thought his noble Friend would do well if, appointing his Committee in the first instance, he would endeavour to obtain the assistance of those noble Lords whose knowledge would be a most efficient aid to his inquiry. He thought his noble Friend was quite justified in bringing this question before Parliament, for it certainly was for the public interest that, where a large trust was confided, it should be exercised under the strict superintendence, not only of those more immediately placed over it, but also of the Parliament by which that trust had been confided.
Motion agreed to,

TRANSATLANTIC PACKET STATION.
EARL GRANVILLErose to put a question to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) of which he had given notice last week. It was a question of some importance, and one in which no party consideration was involved. It was, whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take any measures to remove the Transatlantic Station from Liverpool to any of the southern or western ports of Ireland? In giving notice of it the other day, he had mentioned that his attention had been drawn to a newspaper, which professed to give an account of a deputation which had waited on the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to solicit the establishment of a packet station at Galway, The noble Earl (the

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Earl of Eglinton) was there stated to have referred to the report of a Commission upon this question, of which he (Earl Granville) had been Chairman, and to have stated that his views and opinions were, that the whole of the traffic to the United States from this country should pass through Ireland; that, however, he did not pledge himself to anything, hut that he would communicate with the Government on the subject. The Commission over which he (Earl Granville) presided had collected a very great mass of evidence, written and oral, which was laboriously considered by the Members of the Commission, and they came to the result—he must, indeed, say with some dissent—that it would not be consistent with their duty to recommend the removal of the Transatlantic Packet Station from Liverpool to one of the Irish ports. He would not trouble their Lordships with the grounds of that decision, which of course had given some dissatisfaction in different parts of Ireland, neither should he allude to any of the comments which had been passed upon that Commission. He thought it very natural that a person in the position of the noble Earl at the head of the Irish Government should feel greatly inclined to consider any question which was likely to be of importance to that country, and to which the geographical position of the island would lend a primâ facie support. But, on the other hand, he thought it very likely that the account which had appeared in the newspaper was not correctly given. He had himself observed that in cases of deputations the accounts which had appeared next day were not in all cases correct, and that the person who received a deputation often found himself, when he came to read the report of what had passed, like the lion in the fable, depicted by the sculptor. But as false alarms might be excited by any misapprehension on this matter, bethought the subject of sufficient importance to entitle him to ask the noble Earl opposite whether the opinions expressed by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland on this matter were such as had been ascribed to him; and if so, whether the Government concurred in them, and whether they intended to take any steps for the removal of the Packet Station from Liverpool to any of the Irish ports?
The EARL of DERBYsaid, that as to what the noble Earl had stated in reference to the reports of deputations, he also might observe that such of their Lordships
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as had official experience well knew that they frequently received letters reminding them of some promise given with respect to an appointment, and on referring they found they had promised to put the applicant down on the list, at the same time telling him there were a great many before him, but that when it came to his turn his application should be considered. This was construed into a positive promise; and he could not help believing that there had been, not from any wish to misrepresent, but from an over-sanguine view of the case, some misrepresentation in the present instance. In consequence of the notice which had been given by the noble Earl of the question he had just put, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland wrote to him (the Earl of Derby) stating that he saw, to his great surprise, that what he had said had been considerably misrepresented, and that so great had been the misrepresentation, that the Lord Mayor of Dublin had called on him next day to express his great regret. When he informed their Lordships of the answer which the Lord Lieutenant had really given to the deputation, he felt sure that their Lordships would agree that it was just such a statement as the Lord Lieutenant ought to have made on the occasion. What his Excellency really said, was, that he felt a deep interest in the welfare and prosperity of Ireland, and that he was personally anxious to see the whole trade, not of England only, but of all Europe, pass through Ireland to America, but that any good wishes that he might entertain not only could not obtain the establishment of a Transatlantic Station in Ireland, but could not even obtain the granting of the request of the deputation for the building of a pier in Galway Harbour. That was the only answer the Lord Lieutenant gave, with the exception of an assurance that he would transmit the representations of the deputation to the Government. In reference to the question put by the noble Earl, he (the Earl of Derby) had to reply, that Government had not seen reason to come to any decision adverse to the conclusion at which the Commission referred to by the noble Earl had arrived, and. consequently, the Government, as at present advised, had no intention of removing the Transatlantic Packet Station from Liverpool, and establishing it in any of the ports of Ireland. But, at the same time, he must observe, that the subject was open to inquiry, and there were many motives, more especially the submarine telegraph between England and Ireland, if it

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should be carried into effect, which might render it desirable that such a packet station as had been alluded to should be at some future time established, and that every encouragement should be given to the improvement of those splendid harbours in which the west coast of Ireland more especially abounded. Nevertheless, he would not, on the part of the Government, desire to hold out any expectation, at all events for the present, that the Transatlantic Packet Station would be established on the west coast of Ireland, or that any preference was intended to be shown in favour of one port over another, more especially as between the two ports which had been prominently put forward, Limerick and Galway.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, the report of the Royal Commission, over which the noble Earl (Earl Granville) presided, stated distinctly that, as far as rapid communication was concerned, very considerable advantages would be gained by the establishment of a transatlantic packet station on the west coast of Ireland. If that were done, no doubt a totally different system of navigation and communication must be established. The report also recommended the adoption of Holyhead as a port at which the transatlantic mails ought to be embarked and disembarked; and he (the Marquess of Clanri-carde) had no doubt very considerable advantage would be gained by that. The officers of the Post Office—particularly Mr. Rowland Hill—had considered that point minutely, and it was their opinion, an opinion in which he joined, that that part of the report should be followed up. In Ireland, when a public men fulfilled his duty very strictly, he was apt to be called very unpatriotic. He had thought it his duty, when he was Postmaster General, to recommend that the transatlantic mails should be embarked and disembarked at Holyhead; but he was free to say that the adoption of that course would lead ultimately to the adoption of a port in Ireland as the port for the embarking and disembarking of the mails for the United States, because of the total alteration in the system of navigation which would ensue; and he thought that project ought not to be lightly lost sight of.
LORD MONTEAGLEdid not approach this subject with the slightest intention of casting discredit on the industry and ability displayed by the Commission over which his noble Friend (Earl Granville) had pre-
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sided. Nothing could be more creditable than the mode in which that inquiry had been conducted, although for one purpose it still remained incomplete. He was personally interested in this matter, and might therefore be supposed to be not quite an unbiassed witness; but he thought it impossible to overrate the importance of providing means of rapid communication between Ireland and the United States of America, and also with our North American Colonies. Yet he did not anticipate from any Irish transatlantic port some of the advantages which his more sanguine countrymen expected. He believed that the manufactured goods of Lancashire and Yorkshire would always find their way directly to America, from the trading port of Liverpool; and that, therefore, English commercial interests were needlessly alarmed at the proposal to establish a packet station on the west coast of Ireland, as likely to affect their commercial interests injuriously. On the contrary, it would promote them. The question seemed to him to resolve itself almost exclusively into one of improved postal communication; though he did not mean to say that the question of passengers might not, to a certain extent, enter into it. The report of the Commission appeared to him greatly to underrate the importance of a windward port communicating with America. What was the evidence of Mr. Penn, the eminent engineer of Greenwich, upon this subject? He stated that, if a vessel were exclusively built for Post Office and passenger purposes, he would pledge his reputation that he should be able to place at a windward port a vessel that would make the voyage from that port to Halifax in five days and three-quarters on an average. The only motive which could justify any interference in shipping was either national defence or the postal question. With a view to the acceleration of postal communication, England, so far from viewing the subject with any jealousy, ought only to see the establishment of a principle by which England, in common with Ireland, would share the advantage. Nor was this all. A more certain line of communication across the Atlantic would benefit not only the British empire, but the whole of northern Europe, for he believed that if an improved line of postal communication were established with America through Ireland, the whole. correspondence, not only of this country, but of the entire north of Europe, would pass through that line. The Commissioners, in their

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report, had expressed themselves opposed to the selection of an Irish port; but of the different Irish ports to which their inquiries had been directed, they had given a preference to the port of Galway and a port on the Shannon. They have not procured any opinion with respect to the relative merits of these two ports. It was a matter of great importance to complete the inquiry, in order to ascertain what remained to be done in both these ports, otherwise there would be a continual struggle between one port and the other. Neither of them were as yet fully complete for the purpose contemplated. A decision was required, or otherwise capital might be misapplied, either in marine works at Gal-way, or local communications on the Shannon. It was important that an impartial and authoritative opinion on the subject should be procured. He believed that many memorials from Ireland had been presented to the Treasury on this subject; as he believed there was no objection to their production, he moved that they be laid upon the table.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he believed there could be no objection to the production of the memorials to which his noble Friend had referred. He (Earl Granville) might, after they should have been laid before Parliament, take some future opportunity of bringing the subject still further under their Lordships' consideration.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, their Lordships would perhaps be surprised that he should rise to take part in a debate of this kind; but as he had lately had the honour thrust upon him of becoming an Irish proprietor, and as he had been requested, if an opportunity presented itself, to put in a good word on this subject, and particularly in favour of the port of Galway, he wished to make one or two observations. He was much afraid that nothing could be expected to be done in this matter in favour of Ireland or of Galway; but as the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) had told them that the completion of the submarine telegraph might alter the state of affairs, and as they had seen sudden revolutions on other subjects of late years, it might be that they would experience a sudden revolution in this matter also. He had been informed that the submarine telegraph would be almost immediately put in operation, and then communications would take place between London and Dublin in the course of a few seconds. When that was once done, he hoped they would see the
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very desirable object carried out of a packet station at Galway. With reference to the condition of property in that part of the country, he might mention that he knew an estate which used to produce 3,000 l. a year, that for the last five years had not yielded enough to pay the rates.
Motion for Copies of all Memorials addressed to the Treasury respecting the establishment of a Harbour in Ireland for Transatlantic Communication, since the presentation of the Report of the Royal Commission on the subject, agreed to.
House adjourned till To-morrow.