Lords Sitting of 23 March 1852

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL.—2a Law of Wills Amendment.

LAW OF WILLS AMENDMENT BILL.
ORDER of the Day for Second Reading, read.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I rise to move the Second Reading of a Bill for the Amendment of the Law with respect to Wills. When I introduced this Bill the other night, I stated to your Lordships the difficulties which it was intended to guard against. By a statute passed in the reign of Charles II., all devises in writing were to be attested and subscribed by three or four witnesses, in the presence of the testator; and it was said that a will was good if the name of the testator was found at the head of the will; and therefore, if a man, for example, began in these terms—"I, John Styles, do make this my will," that was held to be a sufficient signature. Now, my Lords,
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this was thought to be an abuse; and, in order to guard against such an abuse, a new Act of Parliament was passed in the first year of Her present Majesty, for the amendment of the law of wills, which provided that every will should be signed at the foot or end thereof by the testator, in the presence of certain witnesses. I have stated to your Lordships that the effect of that enactment was (and I dare say it was a surprise upon those who framed the Act) that; unless the name of the testator followed immediately after the disposition of the will (if there was, for example, a little more than an inch of space left, on which the name might have been introduced), if the name was placed a little lower, the case was tried, not by the rule of law, but rather by the rule of space, and the will was held to be void; and, upon that construction, my Lords, hundreds of wills have been held to be invalid, and misery and wretchedness have found their way to hearths where wealth, peace, and comfort ought to have found their habitation. My Lords, the proposition is to

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amend the present law, by providing, that, where the name of the testator is found after the will, so as to give, by its place and situation, a sanction to the will itself—so as to show that it was intended to sanction the will by the signature after the will—that shall be held to be valid. Now, my Lords, no question ever arose in the vast number of wills which were made after the Statute of Frauds in the reign of Charles II., which I have mentioned—no question, I say, ever arose as to whether the name of the testator being after the will was in its proper place or not, and therefore the removal of the obstacle which has been occasioned by the decisions will remove all the difficulties, and no question hereafter can arise, as it appears to me, my Lords, with regard to the execution of such a will. My Lords, I believe there will be a general concurrence in this measure, and I believe that nothing can be more desirable, as people die daily, and as men must make their wills, and as a great majority of wills would be held to be valid but for the rule of law I have referred to; and, indeed, I know that many of your Lordships, in consequence of what you have heard, have done exactly what I have done myself—namely, I have looked at my own will to see whether it was executed so as to carry my own intentions into effect, having a very great doubt in my mind whether the appearance of the thing upon paper might not invalidate it, for I might have put my name a little lower than the rule of law required. And I think, my Lords, that it is of the utmost importance that a man's will should be considered valid and sacred where the mere form only is in question, and the substance is not in dispute. Therefore I propose, with your Lordships' permission, to carry the Bill through all its stages now, so that your Lordships may be enabled to pass the measure before Easter, and send it down to the other House immediately. My Lords, there are other points which I have endeavoured to cope with, and which may be open to more observation, and which may draw from some of my noble and learned Friends objections to its passing without more mature consideration; and, my Lords, if that should be so, I can only say that I should at once feel myself bound to withdraw those clauses, because I mean to put forward nothing that, in my opinion, will endanger the principal measure, which is one which I think so exceedingly important. My Lords, the two clauses
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to which I refer, will, I think, remedy a very great abuse. The Act of Parliament of Her present Majesty, as I have told your Lordships, requires a will to be signed at the foot or end thereof, in the presence of two witnesses. That, my Lords, I have disposed of. It then goes on to require that the signature of the testator shall be made or acknowledged in the presence of the witnesses. Now, my Lords, this difficulty has arisen upon that—it was not required by the Statute of Frauds—but this difficulty has now arisen. Your Lordships will bear in mind that what the Act requires is, that the signature of the testator shall be made or acknowledged in the presence of the witnesses. Now, my Lords, it often happens that when a man has made his will and called in the witnesses to attest it, he is anxious that they should not see any part of the provisions of that will: suppose, for example, that it is written on a sheet of letter paper—you have it before you, and two servants, perhaps, come into the room to witness the will, and the testator desires that they should not read any portion of the will by glancing over that part which is above the signature, and that has induced a man frequently to fold down the will so as to hide from the witnesses the portion above the signature, and in doing so he has folded down the signature itself. And, my Lords, it has been held that as the statute requires that the signature, not the will, should be made and acknowledged in the presence of the witnesses, unless they have seen the signature, the will is void. Now, my Lords, that was never the intention; and with your Lordships' permission, I propose to amend that state of the law in this manner, by enacting that if the signature of the testator be in its proper place, and it is not proved to have been placed there after the witnesses affixed their signatures, and if the testator at the time acknowledged the instrument to be his will, that that shall be sufficient. Now, my Lords, I entertained a hope—which hope I have rather abandoned within the last quarter of an hour—but I had hoped that this proposition was free from objection, and would meet with none from any of my noble and learned Friends, because, if a testator acknowledges an instrument to be his will, and if the will come to be examined, and the name of the testator is found to be in its proper place at the end of the will, where is the danger? What is it, my Lords, that you have to guard against?

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There is the signature—the testator has signed it, and, properly speaking, it is not his will unless he has signed it. If, there-fore, be did that which was requisite at the end of it, which is necessary to give effectual operation to it, I ask your Lordships whether it is reasonable to allow men's wills to be set aside upon a distinction of that sort? I should promise your Lordships that if any obstacle be opposed by any of my noble and learned Friends to this provision being carried now—a provision which I should think it not proper to attempt to force upon your Lordships—if any of my noble and learned Friends should have any objection to offer, I shall think it highly improper to attempt to ask your Lordships to pass this provision without full consideration being given to it; and, therefore, I shall withdraw it, so as not to endanger the ultimate success of the whole measure, though undoubtedly I shall introduce it for further and more mature consideration upon another occasion. My Lords, there is another improvement, if your Lordships should think proper to concur in it, that I propose to introduce. The statute requires that the witnesses should sign in the presence of the testator. And, my Lords, it has very often happened, that when a man is making his will in extremis—when he is lying in bed, and is incapable of being moved, but in a state of perfect capacity of mind—it has frequently happened that witnesses who have come round the bedside, and witnessed the execution of the will, and seen it signed by the testator, all due solemnities being observed, in order not to disturb him, have retired to the adjoining room, and there attested the will; and then the question has arisen—Is that, or not, a compliance with the statute, which requires that a will shall be signed by the witnesses in the presence of the testator? Now, my Lords, in order to meet the difficulties of the case—with a natural desire to give effect to men's wills, where there is no fraud, and where the statute has been substantially complied with—the Courts have made this distinction, that if the witnesses sign in such a position in an adjoining room that they are within the line of sight, so that the testator, if he liked, might see them (although nobody pretends that he did see them), the will is good; but if they happen to retire a little beyond the line of sight, the table, for example, being out of view, and they all sign the will, the will is void. Now, my Lords, what has been the consequence? Why,
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my Lords, this—that juries have not been found who would, though upon their oaths, find a will so signed to be void. They would not find a will to be void, though it was clear that the testator was not in a position in which he could have seen the witnesses sign. And, my Lords, we have had several instances of this sort. Several trials have been sent down to juries once, twice, and thrice, to decide that question upon a will, in cases in which there was no doubt about the fact that the witnesses were not within the line of sight, and the juries have, upon every occasion, returned a verdict in favour of the will, refusing obedience to the law, because they thought that a verdict according to the rule of law would be stripping the rightful owners of their just possessions. Now this is an invitation which should not be held out to juries to compel them to come to a verdict at variance with their own conscience. My Lords, there is undoubtedly a difficulty, and I will state to your Lordships what one of the results of this state of things is, and which is really almost absurd and almost ludicrous. The statute applies to a blind man's will as well as to the will of a man who is possessed of his eyesight; and it has been held, therefore, that under the statute, although the witnesses are to sign in the presence of the testator, yet if they sign in the presence of a blind man that it is a good signature. But your Lordships will be astonished when I tell you that the Courts have made this rule, namely, that the same rule—that which I have spoken of to your Lordships as to the line of sight—applies as well to a blind man as to a man that can see; and the Courts have decided that if a blind man is not in a position in which, if he was blessed with sight, he could see, his will is void. And so, in the ease of a man being wholly incapable of seeing, if the witnesses are there, his will is good if they happen to sign within the line of sight. Now, my Lords, surely these are anomalies in the law of England which ought not to be allowed to prevail; and I must say that the first case that I put to your Lordships, in which men wills have been held to be void because the signature was not in the proper place, is a case which in its operation is a disgrace to the country. My Lords, it is very easy to point out what I have been stating to your Lordships upon the last head. It will not be, perhaps, so easy to persuade

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some of my noble and learned Friends that I have provided a satisfactory remedy, although I have often and anxiously taken the subject into consideration. But, my Lords, this no hasty conclusion of mine. I have no doubt some of my noble and learned Friends will think that I have not provided in the most satisfactory manner for the solution of this question; but what I propose to provide for is this, that where witnesses, without fraud, and as part of the same transaction, without quitting the house or place where the will is signed, do sign a will after seeing the testator sign it, all due solemnities being observed, that shall be held to be a valid will. Now, my Lords, no doubt it may be said that this would open a door to some fraud or some substitution of one will for another. My Lords, these are not the dangers, after all, which we have to avoid. It may be said, that because the dangers have not occurred, the law has prevented them. But the law has not struck at fraud; the law has destroyed a man's will which was open to no substantial objection: but the law has not prevented the frauds which, whenever the parties had been determined to carry them into execution, they have been able to do in spite of the law. I do not say that they have all been successful—they have attempted it skilfully, and it may be successfully in some cases, and they have taken care to adhere to all those rules which would destroy men's wills, in attempting to impose the solemnities required. Now, my Lords, I must state in conclusion that if any of my noble and learned Friends object to either of these two clauses, I will not retain them. But if I should have the concurrence of my noble and learned Friends to the first clause, which I expect, I shall be very well content. If not, I shall listen with respectful attention to what they have to suggest. But, my Lords, I cannot promise that I shall not, upon a future occasion, bring into your Lordships' House a measure founded upon these propositions, which may be then more fully considered. And, as I am addressing your Lordships upon the subject, and speaking of future measures, I would draw your Lordships' attention to a measure as to wills which may require the attention of this and the other House of Parliament. The statute of the first of Queen Victoria for the first time imposed the same solemnities upon the disposition of personal estate as in the time of Charles II., with variations,
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were imposed upon the disposition of real estate; and it was said, how absurd is it that you cannot dispose of half an acre of land without three witnesses, and yet you may dispose of 100,000 l. of personal estate without any witnesses. Yet people do not desire every day to alter the testamentary disposition of their real estate, but they make variations in the disposition of their personal estate by codicil and by legacy to be payable out of their personal estate, however large it may be; but no man can make the slightest alteration in his will: he cannot give 5l., nor alter a legacy, without calling in two witnesses. It was said of no ordinary man that he had ten thousand freaks which; died in thinking. I might say with equal truth that owing to the difficulties which the law throws around them, many ten thousand legacies have died in thinking. These are points, however, which we must consider hereafter. The noble and leaned Lord then moved that the Bill be now read 2a.
LORD BROUGHAMhad no objection to give the Bill a second reading. He entirely approved of the course suggested by the noble Lord on the woolsack, of striking out, for the present at least, all but the first clause, and agreed with him that at all events that clause should be passed. If there were any difficulty, it was not so much with the second as with the third clause; but with reference to those two propositions, he desired further discussion. As to the ease about which there were two or three trials, he supposed the noble Lord meant that of the late Duke of Roxburgh's will. He (Lord Brougham) was counsel at the trials, and the question was, whether the signatures of the witnesses were affixed within the line of sight. His Grace died in the house in St. James's Square; before his death he lay in a room next the drawing-room; the will was signed by him and then taken into the drawing-room to be attested. The whole matter turned open whether the witnesses signed upon a table between two windows, or upon a table in the centre of the room. If it had been signed upon the table between the two windows, it would have been, by the rule of law, in the presence of the testator; but if upon the centre table, it would not have been, by the same rule, in the presence of the testator, the wall intervening. Of course great consequences followed the distinction made by the rule; but serious consequences were apt to follow almost all

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rules laid down. The business of the lawgiver was not to avoid laying down rules, but was so to frame the rules that the minimum of contradiction and anomaly should be involved.
LORD CRANWORTHexpressed himself in favour of the principle of the Bill, but thought that some of the evils of which his noble Friend on the woolsack had complained, arose rather from wrong decisions of the Judges, than from the imperfections of the law. These evils, however, required remedy, whatever might be their cause; and he should therefore not oppose the second reading of the Bill.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHthought that his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack was perfectly justified in introducing this Bill; but should have been better satisfied had he consolidated all the statutory provisions relating to wills into one general measure,
BUI read 2a.

COMMERCE WITH RIO DE LA PLATA.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, that the subject to which he wished to draw the attention of their Lordships, and on which he rose to ask a question, though of great importance in a commercial country like this, was not one likely to possess any general interest for their Lordships. It bad often been his lot to bring this question before their Lordships—and it had often been brought before them by the noble Earl behind him (the Earl of Harrowby), and by several other of their Lordships; but on all former occasions the principal points raised had been the conduct of some diplomatic agent or naval officer in the Rio Plata, and the merits or demerits of the policy which such diplomatic agent or naval officer had pursued. He should not on this occasion criticise the conduct of any of our officers, or the policy adopted by our different Administrations, though he might have occasion to refer to certain transactions in the Rio Plata, and to the great contrast in the instructions sent out to our agents by the different Governments of this country. He wanted on this occasion to obtain information as to the present position of affairs in that part of the world, and to impress upon Her Majesty's Ministers the necessity of observing the operations there, and of not letting the present opportunity pass by without attempting by negotiation to do that which he thought was the only legitimate object we ought to have in view—to establish peace in that
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quarter of the globe, in order that commerce and the arts attendant upon peace might hereafter flourish there. The countries watered by the tributary rivers of the Plate opened a large field for the enterprise of European commerce, and possessed means of communication almost unrivalled in the world. These physical advantages had hitherto been turned to no account. Foreign vessels seldom ploughed the waters of the Parana and Paraguay, nor were busy marts of trade to be found upon their banks. Every one of their Lordships must have observed that, while on the northern part of the great American continent there was an active and energetic race, who were advancing with such rapidity in civilisation and power as to seem destined to form the first nation and the finest people in the world, there was in the southern part of it another race, which was always lagging behind—which made no advance in improvement or civilisation, or which, if it did make any advance, made it at a snail's pace—which, being the descendants of Spanish and Portuguese settlers, were far behind the descendants of the Anglo-Saxon race in all the arts and sciences; and which was moping in ignorance and grovelling in superstition, notwithstanding the neighbourhood of more enlightened countries. He attributed this, in a great degree, to the bad propensity of their Governments to exclude them from all intercourse with Europeans; that was the marked and most unfortunate policy of all the countries watered by the vast rivers which would otherwise be the arteries through which trade and civilisation would flow into the interior of South America. But now as freedom of action amongst the States forming the Argentine Confederation, which from a federal republic had fallen into an absolute despotism, had been restored, a new turn seemed to have taken place in its affairs, a new page seemed to have been opened in its history, and an opportunity was afforded for the powerful maritime nations of Europe to interfere, with just reason and right, to induce that republic by negotiation to adopt a new line of policy, and to bestow thereby an invaluable boon not only upon the rest of the world, but also upon all the numerous nations of that part of the world. He was especially anxious to state to their Lordships the reasons on which he thought that this opportunity had now arrived, and that if it were not seized instantaneously it would rapidly pass by. He believed that

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an intention was entertained in that part of the world to exclude our commerce from it by more stringent regulations than any which had hitherto been adopted, and that a new line of policy was to be followed up there which would be extremely injurious, not only to ourselves as a commercial nation, but to other commercial nations also, and more especially to the country itself. Their Lordships were all aware that after the war which broke out beween Brazil and Buenos Ayres in the year 1828, a treaty between those two countries was signed and ratified under the mediation of the British Government—a treaty by which the Banda Oriental, of which Montevideo was the capital, was declared an independent country and republic. Their Lordships must not lose sight of this point throughout this discussion, that this district was declared to be totally independent. Hitherto; whatever party had been in power in Great Britain, their common object had been to insist on the complete independence of the Banda Oriental, with regard both to Buenos Ayres the capital of the Argentine Confederation, and Brazils, the other party to the treaty. We negotiated with the Republic of Uruguay, as the Banda Oriental or Monte Videan territory is called, as with an independent Power. The treaty of which he had just been speaking, and to which we were not parties, but only mediating Powers, was signed in 1828. In the year 1838 war existed between France and Buenos Ayres. During the period of that war, France wished, and used, to avail herself of the independent country of Montevideo as a basis of its operations of war against Buenos Ayres. General Oribe was at that time President of Montevideo, and objected to that country being made use of against Buenos Ayres in that way by France. A revolution then took place in Montevideo; he need not say how General Oribe was driven out, and General Ribeira was appointed President in his place. Ribeira joined the French in their operations, and an invasion of the territory of Buenos Ayres took place under General Lavalle, assisted by Ribeira. Previously, and also subsequently, to that time, there were two violent parties in the Argentine Confederation, known by the respective titles of Unitarians and Federalists; and so hostile were they to each other, that not one of the proclamations of General Rosas was to be found which was not headed with the words—"Death to the
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savage Unitarians!" General Rosas, who had made himself, in 1828, President of Buenos Ayres, belonged to the Federalist party, and was, of course, opposed to. the Unitarians. There was no doubt that many Unitarians from Buenos Ayres went over to Montevideo, and there carried on hostilities against Buenos Ayres. After the French had concluded a peace with Rosas, Ribeira continued the war, and invaded part of the Argentine Confederation. Rosas availed himself of the services of General Oribe, placed him at the head of an army in Buenos Ayres, and sent him at the head of that army, to meet Ribeira. They met, and Ribeira was routed. Oribe continued to press on the Banda Oriental, and claimed to be its legitimate President, raised the whole country of Uruguay, and surrounded and besieged the town of Montevideo. Then it was thought necessary that we should interfere. Mr. Mandeville had attempted a mediation as early as 1841, and had been blamed by his Government for having exceeded his orders. He was recalled. We sent out Mr. Gore Ouseley as the successor of Mr. Mandeville, whose interference had not been approved of. Mr. Gore Ouseley's negotiation, however, did not gain the results anticipated. The French Government sent out a negotiator also, Baron Deffaudis. They went together to Buenos Ayres, but could not persuade General Rosas to adopt any terms of peace. They then went to Montevideo, which at the time was engaged in strong hostilities against Buenos Ayres, and not only encouraged the Monte Videans to resist Oribe, but sent an English squadron to blockade Buenos Ayres. An English force was also landed to defend Montevideo. In spite of all this, Generals Rosas and Oribe held their footing, and the latter pressed Montevideo very hard. Mr. Gore Ouseley again proposed terms of accommodation, to which General Rosas would not accede. Mr. Hood was then sent out, but after long fruitless negotiations with Rosas, he came away re infecta. Lord Howden then went out as our mediator, and with him went, on behalf of France, a distinguished personage, who was now the Ambassador from France to this country. After a short time, though the intervention was a joint intervention, Lord Howden thought it expedient to break up the blockade: and from that day our interference ceased, and Buenos Ayres and Montevideo were left to fight out their

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quarrel as they liked. They did so; and from that time the joint intervention of England and Prance was at an end. The state of things continued as before; one Minister after another was sent out, first Mr. Robert Gore, then Mr. Hood, and finally Mr. Sotheron. Mr. Sotheron was the only Minister who had any success; but it was doubtful whether even he had the success which he desired. After all these failures which he had enumerated, a treaty was agreed upon between General Rosas and this country. That treaty was to acknowledge the independence of Montevideo, and to induce Rosas to withdraw his forces from the vicinity of that town, which, however, he seemed very loth to do, though he acknowledged the independence of the republic. Nevertheless, in all those negotiations which he had alluded to, and in the treaty finally obtained by Mr. Sotheron, though the object was to open the navigation of the tributaries of the Rio Plata, and though in one instance we had opened the navigation of the Parana by force, Rosas would on no account consent to throw open the navigation of the rivers within the Argentine territory, and opening into the Rio Plata, so as to enable the merchandise of Bolivia and Paraguay, and the provinces higher up on those great rivers to have free passage to our shores. Mr. Hood proposed to consider the navigation of the Parana and the Paraguay as an interior navigation, and subject to the laws of the Argentine Confederation; but so suspicious was Rosas on that point, that he refused to accede to their words, and dictated new words of his own; and the consequence of his doing so was, that the negotiations failed, and no attempt had been made to renew them. When affairs came to this point, it was supposed that there was an end to our interference. We had gained no advantage in a point of commercial value, although we had compelled Rosas to act up to the treaty of 1828, and acknowledge the independence of Montevideo. After that arrived the circumstance which had altogether changed our relations with that country, and which had opened to us an opportunity of making new relations with that country. After we had withdrawn from the River Plate, and after Rosas had withdrawn his troops from Montevideo, Brazil interfered, and made several treaties—he believed four or five. [The Earl of MALMES-
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BURY: Six.] He hoped that they would all be communicated to the House. Brazil, he said, interfered, first, by making treaties of commerce, and afterwards by urging the Government of Corrientes to raise the flag of rebellion. This movement was joined by the remains of the Oriental forces, and was supported by the Brazilian fleet, very much as the Montevideans were supported by the British fleet on a former occasion. This insurrection under the leadership of General Urquiza was speedily successful. General Urquiza rapidly advanced against the army of Rosas, and, having driven his troops out of Corrientes, Entrerios, and across the Parana, fought the important general action at Santos Lugares, in which Rosas was utterly defeated. Immediately after that event, Rosas was abandoned by the whole of his followers, and was obliged to fly with his daughter on board Her Majesty's ship Locust. Urquiza proceeded on his march up the country; and, as he (Lord Beaumont) was informed, on the authority of recent letters, at this moment not only the Argentine flag, but the flag of Brazil, was floating over Buenos Ayres. He had seen one letter which stated that circumstance distinctly. It was further natural to expect that Brazil, having assisted Urquiza, would, in this state of affairs, demand from him full rewards and return for the services rendered to him. As part of these, it was stated that the island of Martin Garcia, the Gibraltar of the Parana, was to be surrendered to Brazil. He wished to ask if it was true also that a large portion of the Banda Oriental had been ceded to Brazil. It was to obtain exact information as to the position of the Brazils, as to the state of the Argentine Confederation, and as to the independence of the republic of Uruguay, he asked these questions. The independence of Uruguay was settled by treaty; and he was anxious to know in what condition it was at present? He also wished to know who was to be considered the authority of the Confederation, and if General Urquiza, the President of Corrientes and Entrerios, was to be considered in that capacity? Having obtained that information, he would merely urge on Government not to lose one moment in entering upon negotiations with the countries watered by the Parana and Paraguay, and the Uruguay, for the purpose of establishing a free navigation, and for securing the independence not only of the Argentine

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Confederation, but of Bolivia, Paraguay, and the Banda Oriental.
The EARL of MALMESBURYwas sure their Lordships did not expect him to go into the history of past events in all these countries to which his noble Friend had referred, and which had occupied be many years; but at all events it was unnecessary for him, after the detailed account which the noble Lord had given of transactions in South America, to refer to them at any length. He would observe, however, that it was not very likely that any Government in which Her Majesty placed confidence would neglect so important a subject, as not to see the vast importance of the changes which had taken place, and the immediate necessity of active measures to secure the advantages which might be reaped from them. But it was a subject which had occupied the attention of public men of this country for many years; and even so long ago as the year 1806, when Sir Home Popham made his attack upon Buenos Ayres, and had to defend his conduct before a court-martial, he wrote a letter, which is still extant, in which he directed attention to the vast importance of the territories on the River Plate, with respect to the commerce of Great Britain. All that remained for him, after the sketch given by the noble Lord on the late and present state of affairs in these countries, was to state, with reference to the condition, the political state, the geographical position, and the1 requirements of those territories, that the upper and more remote districts of Bolivia, and those into which the country bordering on the Paraguay was divided, had long desired to have an unbroken communication with the Atlantic, and, across; the ocean, with this country; also that the independence of the Republics of Paraguay and Uruguay, which had been recognised by treaty, appeared to them of the utmost importance to have established on a secure basis. The independent Republic of Paraguay, which we had not yet acknowledged, but which he thought we ought to do as Soon as possible—and which appeared to be governed at this moment by a man who appeared to be very much in advance of his race, had agreed to accept commercial relations with this conntry. He might add that when Sir Charles Hotham went up the Parana, he had communications with the chief of the country, Lopez, which confirmed the existence of
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the desire for unrestricted communication with the ocean on the part of those states, and in any negotiation which might ensue between this country and those States, whether with respect to commercial relations or other matters, it wag s source of satisfaction to know that such a disposition existed on their part. Further, when he considered the immense advantages England and other European countries trading with the River Plate would derive from availing themselves of the facilities presented by the geographical position of those territories, there was hardly a nation in Europe which would not take the same view as the noble Lord and as the Government of this country took on the subject. He need not say that they fully appreciated the importance of the matter, and the value of the present opportunity to benefit generally the commercial interests not only of this country, but of mankind at large. With respect to the question of the noble Lord on the political state of the country at the present moment, he had to state that the Government had received no account, either official or private, except of the battle in which Rosas had been defeated, after which it was stated he had fled for refuge to one of our ships; neither had they any intelligence that the Brazilian flag was flying together with that of the Argentine Confederation at Buenos Ayres. They had no account, official or private, as to any part of the Bands Oriental, or the island of Martin Garcia, having been given up to Brazil; but they had certain reasons for believing that the island retained the neutral character which had been imparted to it by the last treaty between those territories and Brazil. With respect to the conduct of Her Majesty's Government in the circumstances which had lately arisen; it was1 simply this:—Within twenty-four hours of their receiving the news of the defeat of Rosas, he (the Earl of Malmesbury) had put himself rib-communication with the Government of the French Republic, inviting that Government to join us in renewing negotiations with those States, for the purpose of contributing to the commercial interests of both nations and of Europe generally. Further than that he could not, and he thought their Lordships would not expect him in his answer to go into any details of any scheme of policy which the Government were framing, or might frame, with a view to the opening of the Rio de la Plata

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He would, therefore, again state that Her Majesty's Government fully appreciated the opportunity which had now offered, and would take the best advantage of it.
The EARL of ABERDEENsaid, he had frequently turned his attention to the subject which the noble Lord had brought before the House, and he could not help taking that opportunity of expressing his great satisfaction at the determination come to by Her Majesty's Government in this matter. The main object of the interference of this country was now only fully obtained—and that was the entire independence of the Oriental Republic. That was our only indispensable object, though there were others which were collateral and subsidiary to it. The republic was net really independent after the last treaty with Rosas in 1849; for, though its independence was recognised in terms, the army of Rosas was left in the Oriental territory in a position to press hostilities against it; and, had it not been for the intervention of Brazil and the rebellion (as the noble Lord called it) of Entrerios against Rosas, it would have been very possible that army would have succeeded in obtaining possession of Montevideo. That town, after a protracted and most heroic defence, assisted certainly at its earliest period by this country and by foreigners in maintaining that independence which the treaty of 1828 had obtained for it, had now, he hoped, been brought to a state in which its long sacrifices would be rewarded. He was most happy to hear from the noble Earl that the first thing he had done had been to propose to renew with the French Government those negotiations which had been stopped by the treaty separately concluded with Rosas on one part—a proceeding which at the time he (the Earl of Aberdeen) had taken the liberty of saying he could not see any full justification for adopting, and which the French Government might have to a certain degree resented, as indeed they did. He would take that opportunity of stating that nothing could exceed the perfect cordiality and good faith with which fee French Government had acted throughout the whole transaction; and, as far as he had been able to understand, the Government of the French Republic had acted with the same good faith as the Government of the French Monarchy. In arranging this co-operation and concert with the French Government, he trusted the noble Earl opposite would proceed in
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the same manner as he had hitherto done, till the effect in view had been produced. It was difficult to say what might happen in a commercial point of view from a free access to the rivers of South America; but no doubt tins was a golden opportunity for seeing what might be done, and he was happy the noble Earl had not neglected it. It was very easy to declare the navigation of a river free; but much remained to be done after such a declaration. The separate interests of the States bordering on these rivers must all be consulted. For instance, he recollected that in 1814 the navigation of the Rhine was declared by the Great Powers of Europe to be free; but it took twenty years to regulate the conditions on which the navigation should take place. Now, he hoped the States on the borders of these great rivers in South America were animated by the feeling and knowledge of their own interest, and were prepared to encourage European Powers to free intercourse. That was not the case with Rosas; but he trusted and believed such a result had now taken place. We had practically at this moment the free navigation of the Uruguay, although not under any treaty, which was the western boundary of the Oriental Republic, the people of which had shown the utmost liberality in commercial matters; and he trusted the Argentine Confederation might share in the wise and salutary principle of the Eastern Republic. He would abstain from entering upon the specific objects of our negotiations—no doubt, the Government were impressed with the great importance of those objects, and he was disposed to give them credit for following them with the greatest assiduity. He hoped he might not be considered guilty of the vanity of authorship, if he remarked before he sat down, that he happened lately to look at the intructions (which he had not seen since he drew them up seven years ago, in 1845), and, so far as he was a judge of them, notwithstanding to various events which had occurred in the interval, there was not one word of them he should desire to alter at this moment.
The EARL of HARROWBYwas understood to make some observations on the conduct of Lord Palmerston when Foreign Secretary in relation to the affairs of the River Plate; which Lord STANLEY OF ALDERLEY defended: but the discussion was very imperfectly heard.
House adjourned to Thursday next.