Lords Sitting of 16 March 1852

MINUTRS.
PUBLIC BILL.—3a County Courts Further Extension.

COUNTY COURTS FURTHER EXTENSION BILL.
Bill read 3a (according to Order); Amendments made. Bill passed.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that he could not help congratulating the House upon the passing of the Bill. He by no means intended to say that further improvements were not necessary; but if the present measure should receive the ultimate sanction of the Legislature, a great benefit would be conferred upon the country. He was happy to observe that his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack viewed the subject in the same light as he did; and he yet trusted that upon further consideration the late Lord Chancellor and the Chief Justice would see grounds for altering their opinions upon some minor matters upon which they were at issue. He was sorry that there was still no provision in the Bill by which a practising barrister should be allowed to go into court uninstructed by an attorney. The prohibition in the Act of 1846 remained unrepealed. Contrary to his own opinion he had at present yielded that point. Differing from those who were opposed to him, he considered that it was a subject which should be left to the etiquette of the profession; and he hoped that his noble and learned Friends would adopt the only course which could be adopted, namely, the removal of the restriction which at present excluded barristers from these courts, thus leaving it to the heads of the profession themselves to settle what should be the etiquette, as it was in every other Court of any description; the County Courts forming the only exception. Of the importance of these Courts, too high an estimate could not be formed. He found, by returns to Parliament, that during the four years from 1846 to 1850, the number of causes which had been brought into the County Courts amounted to 2,400,000, and that 6,000,000 l. had been the amount of money recovered under their jurisdiction. It was a singular fact that in actions for sums of money from 51, to 50 l., in which parties had the option of trial by jury, the proportion submitted to a jury was only 1 in 45. That was a circumstance which had given cause for great reflection in his mind, whether it would not be just and expedient to give to parties in all courts the same option in matters of debt and contract. He by no means intended to extend this option to matters of tort, as where the action lay for injury to person or reputation, but only to cases of debt and contract. For this purpose he had prepared a Bill; but as he knew that some of his noble and learned Friends differed from him in opinion upon
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this subject, he should take further time to consider it.
LORD BEAUMONTgave due credit to the exertions of the noble Lord, but he regretted the course he had taken, or had been obliged by others to take, in respect to this Bill. They had now three or four Acts of Parliament, besides the Bill before them, for regulating the jurisdiction of County Courts. Most of those Acts amended one another; and he thought that the noble Lord should have aimed rather at consolidating those already in existence, than at adding the numerous, though trifling, Amendments contained in this Bill, which increased the difficulty of collating, without bestowing fresh powers upon these Courts. But the measure of the noble Lord did not aim at consolidation, neither did it bestow any original jurisdiction on the Judges. It was an attempt to facilitate the operations of the Chancery Courts. The Bill of the noble Lord was merely one to enable County Court Judges to do what is already done in the Masters' Offices. The noble Lord had held out to the public the idea that his object was to give to the County Courts original jurisdiction in equity; but the Bill did not confer any such thing. For his part, he regretted extremely that the noble Lord did not persevere with the 23rd Clause, whereby a barrister was allowed to practise uninstructed by an attorney. As long as it was a question merely of etiquette amongst members of the Bar, he (Lord Beaumont) abstained from interfering; but the public were, as the Bill now stood, also interested; they knew what was best for them, and they should, therefore, have been left a full option to employ a barrister with or without the intervention of an attorney. The client was the proper person to judge what was the best for his own interest. He wished to know whether it was the intention of the noble Lord to bring in any further measures having reference to these County Courts?
LORD BROUGHAM, in reply, said that he had postponed his Bill for conferring equitable jurisdiction upon the County Courts, because he understood a Bill dealing with that subject was likely to be the fruit of the labours of a Commission which had bestowed much attention on the subject. He rejoiced to think that this expectation had not been disappointed. The learned Commissioners had reported, recommending a most important change in

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the whole system of Chancery procedure, and this report was adopted by the present Government. It had been announced in the House of Commons last night that the plan of the Commissioners was to be supported by the Government, with the determination to pass it into a law as speedily as possible. By this he meant the whole plan of the Commissioners. With respect to the consolidation of the County Courts Bills, it would take a very considerable time before that could be effected; but he entirely agreed in the necessity of it, as be had stated the first day of the Session.

NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEasked if Her Majesty's Ministers intend to propose to Parliament any alteration in the present Application of Public Funds for Educational Purposes in Ireland? Those who, at various times, had taken a warm interest in the welfare of Ireland had, he believed, always founded their hopes of effecting a permanent improvement in the state of that country in placing the education of the people of Ireland upon a sound footing. In the year 1832, after a careful investigation of the subject by the authorities, under the supervision of Lord Grey's Government, the system now in operation in Ireland was devised and carried into execution under the immediate direction of the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) opposite. That system had been adopted after grave deliberation, and after full examination and reflection upon the whole subject, after taking counsel with the hierarchy both of the Established and of the Roman Catholic Churches, and after consultation with the best authorities on the subject, both in Ireland and in this country. The noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) bore great part in the preparation of that system; he certainly had the honour and credit of introducing the measure on the subject to Parliament, and he was sure the noble Earl could not at present, and probably never would, look back to any action of his life with more satisfaction than he might to the introduction of the national system of education in Ireland, whereby that country had been most permanently and materially benefited. The progress which had been made by the system in the popular estimation was very great. In the second year after its establishment there were in operation 785 schools, giving education to 107,000 scholars.
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The numbers continued to increase yearly—in 1843 the schools amounted to 2,192, educating 353,340 children; and in 1846 those numbers were augmented respectively to 3,600 schools, and 455,415 children. In 1848 the number of children attending those schools had risen to 507,000. In 1849, the extensive emigration had diminished these numbers somewhat; but at the period to which the last report on the subject brings down the account the number of children attending the schools was 511,623; and he had no doubt that at the present moment the number reached a still higher amount. The system, then, was one which ought not to be touched, but rather carefully guarded and preserved by the Government. No better system of Christian education existed in any part of the civilised world. It had the peculiar advantage, too, for Ireland, of being a united system of education, conducted with the greatest care and impartiality; and the books of the society were all of such an excellent character that they were sought after greedily, not only in this country, but en the Continent. Besides the ordinary schools to which he had referred, there were also seventeen model agricultural schools in different parts of Ireland. Such being the case, it was painful to him to have to direct attention to a recent speech of the Attorney General for Ireland on the subject. He did not find fault with any particular passage in the right hon. and learned Gentleman's (Mr. Napier's) speech; it was the general purport and tone of his speech he wished to direct attention to, and the general purport of it undoubtedly was to cast blame upon the present system of national education in Ireland. The hon. and learned Gentleman stated that he had every reason to hope that he would be able to induce Government to change the system. He said that "Lord Derby had told him that he would have an honest inquiry into the management of these schools; and, when he said an honest inquiry, he meant an honest inquiry into the working of the system, to see what deviation had taken place from the original rules, to see whether it was united, and what could be done with it, in order to meet the objections of the clergy." It was the well-considered determination of Lord Grey's Government that the system of national education in Ireland should be a united system; and it was clearly impossible that a separate system could go on at the same time. The

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Attorney General for Ireland said that Lord Derby had no objection to an inquiry; but he (the Marquess of Clanricarde (took exceptions to the whole of that right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech, for going forth, as it did, to the people of Ireland upon such high authority, and addressed, as it was, to the highest educational institution in Ireland, it was impossible to imagine that it would not give rise to the impression that Her Majesty's Government was disposed to extend its support to other systems of education besides that which was carried on under the superintendence of the National Board. If their Lordships considered the difficulties with which that system had had to contend, and the violent antagonism by which it had been encountered on all sides, they must be prepared to award the highest degree of praise to the learned and reverend persons who had been placed at the head of the Board, superintended the progress of the system, and done so much to render it successful; and encouragement given to any rival system could not fail to seriously embarass those eminent persons. This was a question which ought not to be in contest at all. He hoped the Government would maintain the present system; but if it were held out that a doubt upon the well-working of that system was entertained by the Government, it must have a very injurious effect throughout the whole country. He thought, therefore, he was doing no bad service to the Government by asking the noble Earl whether it was his intention, or the intention of the Irish Government, to propose to Parliament any alteration in the present application of public funds for educational purposes in Ireland?
The EARL of DERBY: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships and the noble Marquess himself must suppose that if there be any one man in the land who takes a personal interest in the well-working of the national system of education in Ireland, it must be the individual who has now the honour of addressing your Lordships. But I take no further credit to myself than that of having been the Secretary of State for Irish Affairs under the Government which examined into the previous reports of various Commissions, and the several plans which had been propounded by many learned and pains-taking persons, and which came to the conclusion that it was necessary to introduce a new system of combined education in Ireland, and of having had the duty—I might say the
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good fortune—to be the organ of that Government in framing the original resolutions, and introducing that system into Ireland. My Lords, I have watched with the deepest interest the progressive increase which has taken place in the number of schools and scholars under the system which was then introduced; and undoubtedly I believe that no step which can now be taken would have any effect in weakening the influence and the hold which that system has produced on the minds of the people of Ireland. I believe it has deeply rooted itself in the institutions and in the affections of the people, and that the progress of the system is as certain as that its results have been, on the whole, beneficial. Greatly as the numbers of the schools and the pupils have from time to time increased, I believe also that increase has not been more than commensurate with the improvement in point of the quality of the education which is now given in Ireland under the auspices of the National Board, as compared with the quality of the education which was given in Ireland twenty years ago. And, moreover, I believe that if at this moment all Government assistance were withdrawn from that and every other description of schools in Ireland, still this great and permanent advantage would have arisen from the institution of the national schools—that the people of that country now understand and appreciate what a good education is, as compared with that which was prevalent there twenty or twenty-five years ago, and that they would not he satisfied with an education of an inferior quality to that which, by means of the national system, they now receive. Nor do I think, my Lords, that it would be in the power of any class of persons, however great the influence they may exercise over the population, to support schools of an inferior character, in opposition to those of the superior character administered by the Board; and gladly do I join in the tribute which the noble Marquess has offered to those reverend and earned persons to whose assiduity and exertions the progress of that system owes far more than it does to any assistance which has been given it by the Government. I have spoken of this as a system of education; but at the same time it is impossible that the noble Marquess should not acknowledge, as of course I must acknowledge myself, that in the course of the twenty years which have elapsed since the system was first adopted, various modi-

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fications in detail have been introduced, and various alterations made in the minor arrangements of the Board, and even in some matters which may be considered as of primary importance. I have not of late entered minutely into the details of the education given in these schools; but I understand that that which was in the first instance rendered compulsory—namely, the use of Scripture lessons in all the schools—has since from various causes been left a good deal to the discretion of the managers of the different schools, and that, consequently, in many of them where Scripture lessons are not used, there is less Scripture education given in those schools than was contemplated by the plan at the original foundation of the Board. I do not mean to say, that, where these lessons are not used, there is not now given to the great bulk of the Roman Catholic population a far more enlightened and a far more scriptural education than they were receiving, or were likely to receive, if this system had not been adopted. But various modifications have taken place from time to time; and your Lordships are aware that some time ago considerable objections were raised on religious grounds, on the part of the Presbyterian body, who held aloof from the system of education in those "schools with quite as much perseverance and determination as, I am sorry to say, a great proportion—though not the whole—of the clergy of the United Church of England and Ireland do at the present moment. Now, my Lords, the absence of this co-operation I feel to be a great evil. I feel that it is a great misfortune that the national system of education was not from the first taken up by the clergy of the Established Church; for sure I am that if it had been so taken up, they would by this time have obtained throughout Ireland a great and important—and not an unworthy—influence over the education of the people, and over the minds, not only of the Protestant but of the Roman Catholic population of that country. But whilst I regret that the Protestant clergy of the Church of England have thus stood aloof, I hesitate not to Bay that I consider it a matter of the greatest importance that we should ascertain whether or not, without departing from the original system, it may be possible to introduce into that system, as has already been done with regard to the Presbyterian Church, such modifications as may, perhaps, remove the objections of the clergy, and induce the clergy to co-operate in
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promoting the system to a greater extent than they have hitherto done. Of late I have not had much time to read the newspapers; and I hope my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland, if he becomes acquainted with what is taking place here now, will not imagine that I treat him with any disrespect if I frankly avow that I have not read that speech of his to which the noble Marquess has alluded; but this I know; because I have had communication with him on this subject—I know his straightforward and candid disposition and character too well not to be quite sure that he would not make any statement on my part, in which he was not entirely borne out by the language I had held to him. I see on the opposite side of the House the noble Earl the late Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and I think he can bear me witness that some two years ago I expressed to him my opinion that the time would come when it would be most expedient that a Parliamentary Committee should be appointed for the purpose of examining into the practical working of the system of national education in Ireland, and that I thought such an investigation, calmly, deliberately, and fairly conducted, would tend to remove much of the misapprehension and misconception on both sides, and might lead to such modifications as would obtain for the system a more united support. I stated at the same time also, that I was strongly disposed to submit that question to your Lordships' consideration, and to move for a Committee to inquire into the working of this system. And there is one point which it is exceedingly desirable should be cleared up, and upon which the noble Marquess has laid considerable stress—namely, how far this system, as it at present exists, is practically a system of combined education. It is a great object now to bring up the youth of Ireland in constant and familiar intercourse with those of different religious persuasions to themselves, and rather to teach them how much of common truth there is in which they might all agree, than to inculcate upon their minds those peculiar points upon which they may happen to differ from one another. But how far the national system is a system of combined education—how far it includes within the limits of its operation Protestants of the Established Church, Presbyterians, and Roman Catholics, and is yet in its details a system which in each particular school is an ex-

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elusive system, not of necessity by the rule, but practically according to the results—how far Presbyterian schools, acting on their own principles, and complying with the rules of the Board, are yet practically and exclusively confined to Presbyterians—and how far, in the south and west of Ireland, where the great bulk of the population are Roman Catholics, the vast majority of the schools are essentially, and all but exclusively, Roman Catholic, under the management of Roman Catholic patrons and Roman Catholic schoolmasters—and if they are, the great majority of the pupils being Roman Catholics, I do not complain; on the contrary, I think it is quite right that these schools should be under the management of Roman Catholic schoolmasters. I complain of none of those things; but, when we want to look at the working of the system, and the possibility of effecting modifications, I think it is important that we should know, by the inquiries of a Committee, how far the system in all these respects deserves to be called that which it was intended to be, and which it is certainly desirable that it should be, a system practically of combined and united education. These questions are, I think, worthy of inquiry by a Committee, and for that purpose I am of opinion it is very desirable that a Committee should be appointed. I think also that, as a part of their labour, that Committee might fairly and properly enter upon an investigation of any possible modifications of the existing rules, which might remove any portion of the objections which are now raised against the system. And if the result of their inquiries should be, that we found that in the great majority of the schools that which was intended to be a combined system, is practically and in reality an exclusive system—if there be Presbyterian schools here, and Roman Catholic schools there; and if the rules of the Board are such as to render it impossible for a portion of the community to attend those schools, and, in fact, practically to exclude them, I hope it will not be regarded as a thing which would derogate from or diminish the influence of the existing system if we enter upon a calm inquiry how far, under the superintendence of the Board, assistance might not in a certain degree be given even to schools which do not strictly come within the letter of the law laid down by the Board. I do not shrink from the consequence to which the noble Marquess has adverted, that schools which, through the
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conscientious scruples of those who lead the population, are now excluded from the advantage of coming under the direct superintendence and control of the Board, would then be admitted to the advantages which are undoubtedly to be derived from the assistance of the Board, without sacrificing their principles, I say, my Lords, I do not see that we should in the slightest respect be violating the principles upon which that Board was originally founded, if, adopting an example which was set us in this country in the first instance, we consented to afford some, perhaps a minor, degree of assistance to schools, be they Protestant or Roman Catholic, which may not come under the strict rules of the Board. And I do not dissent from the conclusion adverted to by the noble Marquess, that if we render assistance to an exclusively Protestant school, for instance, we cannot withhold it from an exclusively Roman Catholic school. In the years 1831 and 1832, when this system was first originated, there existed a different feeling from that which prevails now, which would have rendered any assistance on the part of Government to a school exclusively Roman Catholic a matter of absolute imposibility. I have reason to believe that that feeling is materially weakened in the present day. I believe that the scruples which were then entertained with regard to educating Roman Catholics, as Roman Catholics, have not now the same weight and power over the minds of the people that they had at that time. I believe that the affording Government assistance to a school composed exclusively of Roman Catholics would not now meet with the opposition and with the objections which it would have met with in 1831 and 1832. But I readily admit that if you introduce the principle of affording assistance to a school exclusively Protestant in Ireland, you cannot escape from the other alternative of affording assistance also, under the same rule, to a school exclusively Roman Catholic. Whether it may be possible to combine with the independence of these schools as to their internal management—be they Protestant or Roman Catholic—aid from the national funds, and superintendence by national inspectors, is a matter upon which at this moment I do not desire to pronounce any positive opinion. If you ascertain, on the report of a Committee, that, combined education being the rule, practically exclusive education is the system, then I think it would deserve attention whether you should

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not extend the principle still further, and without intending in the slightest degree to withdraw the support given, or the influence exercised by the present Board, extend the benefits of a good education, assisted by the Government, supplied with the best books, and controlled and superintended by the inspection of the Government, to those, whether on one side or on the other, whose feelings, principles, or, if you will, prejudices, prevent them from receiving these advantages under the present system. I say, then, that the Attorney General for Ireland was perfectly justified in stating that I desire, if possible, to overcome the objections of the Protestant clergy to the system at present pursued; that I desire that an investigation should take place into the practical working of that system; into the modifications which from time to time may have been found necessary or judged expedient to make in the regulations of the Board in the course of the last twenty years; and into the still further modifications which, without departing from the principle, might yet be adopted; and he was justified also in saying that I desired, if possible, to obtain the co-operation of the clergy to the present system; and before and above all things that I desired to have the means in Ireland, as far as practicable, of extending to Roman Catholics and to Protestants, under the superintendence of the Board, and by the assistance of the Government and the public, the advantages of a sound moral, literary, and religious education. Further than that, however—further than the expression of an opinion that the appointment of a Committee, fairly chosen, and entering impartially on their task, might tend to remove difficulties and facilitate the advancement of education—neither am I as an individual, nor is the Government of which I am a Member, in the slightest degree pledged; but I am of opinion that an investigation by a Parliamentary Committee is desirable for the purpose of seeing how far modifications may be introduced in the existing system, which may have a tendency, not to diminish the influence of the Board, but to carry out more extensively and more beneficially those great objects which to a considerable extent have already been accomplished, and which it is my wish and earnest desire to see thoroughly and effectually carried out in Ireland.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, he would willingly give full credit to the noble Earl for the part which, at a former
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part of his career, he had taken in the establishment of the present system of national education in Ireland; and of the working of that system he could speak in terms of the fullest approbation. At that time the difficulties which opposed themselves to the working of any such scheme were almost insuperable; and he had no hesitation in saying that those difficulties would have proved too powerful for it, had it not been for the fortunate occurrence which placed at the head of that system prelates of the two Churches equally distinguished for their enlightened character, their profound knowledge, and their liberality to all men. By them that system had been kept alive; all the rocks and shoals had been successfully avoided; and the great mass of the people of Ireland had been made acquainted with the blessings of an enlightened, instead of, if he might use the word, the ignorant education to which before they had been accustomed. He felt that that system had mot, perhaps, not with all the success, but certainly much more success than had ever been anticipated; and the inference he drew was, that the system ought not to be touched, he would not say not at all, but certainly not without the greatest care. They ought not to go into a Committee with any view that the essential foundation of that system ought to be departed from; for in that case he had no hesitation in saying, that their Lordships would find that all their grants, all the efforts which they had made, would be found to have been in vain, and that instead of uniting the whole people under the blessings of a system of common education, they had ended by establishing a system of exclusive education, and alienating each class more and more from the other. He protested against any inquiry being gone into as to the working of the system in any case where the Protestant and Roman Catholic clergymen had not co-operated together in supporting the system. It had been well remarked, that the great success which had attended the system, had resulted, to a great extent, from the efforts of the eminent persons set at its head. Unfortunately, at this moment it had to deplore the loss of one of these most distinguished prelates (the Rev. Dr. Murray) whose life had done honour to that Church with which he had been connected; who, so far as his influence was concerned, opposed the evil influence of others; and who maintained a state of

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religious peace and harmony in the country where he was called upon to exercise his beneficial influence. Much might depend upon the choice of the person to act in his place, as to how far the same benefits might be derived from the same system. That, therefore, was an additional reason for not hastily announcing a disturbance of a system which, up to the present moment, he held to be perfectly successful, but which might be made more successful; and, at the same time, so far as he was concerned, for not drawing from the high authority of the noble Earl any indication of an intention to substitute, for general and common, a separate and independent system of education.
The EARL of DESARTregretted that the Protestant clergy in Ireland had acted with so great a want of judgment at the first establishment of the system. Their system then was a total withdrawal of themselves from connexion with it; the consequence of which was, that the administration had fallen into the hands of the opposite party. He spoke strongly of this systematic withdrawal, because, from his admiration of the national system, he put a school of his own under it. At first, both the Protestant and Roman Catholic clergymen visited it; but the Protestant clergyman by and by absented himself, and, after a time, the Protestant parents complained that they could not allow their children to attend, on account of the annoyances they were subjected to by the Roman Catholic children. He reminded their Lordships that they disposed of a sum of the public money upon principles which had the effect of excluding a great part of the people of the Church of England from participating in the advantages. He, on that account, did not wonder to find some of the clergy of that Church were of opinion that the people to whom they ministered were hardly used.
The EARL of RODENsaid, he might, perhaps, stand alone in the opinion he felt it his duty to give in respect to the subject now under their Lordships' consideration; but he felt that he had a duty to perform, and, whether he stood alone in his opinion or not in the discharge of that duty, he would have the consciousness of doing that which he owed to his country, to himself, and, above all, to the great cause involved in this question. He agreed with the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde) that the subject was one of paramount importance. Its importance, indeed,
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could not be too strongly urged, seeing the end which was desired to be attained was the giving to the poorer classes an education both for time and eternity. Their Lordships might recollect that when this subject was brought forward in 1832, he felt it his duty to oppose the introduction of the measure, on the ground that he thought that no measure ought to be introduced under a Protestant Government, and under a Protestant constitution, for the instruction 6f the people, that had not for its foundation the teaching of the Scriptures among the children admitted to its schools. He was told at the time that if that course was to be pursued, it would entirely exclude the Roman Catholic children from those schools; but he knew well that at that period Roman Catholic children, to a large amount, were attending schools conducted upon that system, and he had since learned that Roman Catholic children in large numbers were gladly and anxiously attending them and receiving therein a scriptural education. He could not agree with the noble Earl in the statement he had made as to the success of the national system. He (the Earl of Roden) admitted their books were good, and that some of their schools in the country were good; but he said the great majority of the schools were established on a system of giving an exclusively Roman Catholic education to the people. Would not the noble Marquess allow the large body of the Protestant Church in Ireland to have some conscience on this subject? It was his (the Earl of Roden's) privilege to be acquainted with many of the clergy of Ireland, and to meet them from time to time, and to hear their opinions on this subject, and he was certain their opposition to those schools was dictated by the most conscientious motives. He could not doubt that it would come out in evidence before the Committee to which the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) had referred, that among the Roman Catholic people of Ireland there was the greatest anxiety to be instructed, and to have their children instructed, in the Scriptures, and that they were only kept from that instruction by the tyranny of the priests. He (the Earl of Roden) himself had been a witness within the last few months of what the feelings of the people in the west of Ireland were on this subject. They evinced the greatest anxiety to be instructed in the Scriptures. He had seen a large population, to the amount of upwards of 10,000, brought out of the Church of Rome, and

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united to the Church of England. And where had that taken place? It had taken place in the diocese of Dr. M'Hale, an eminent man, possessing great talents, and holding sincere ultramontane opinions. He (the Earl of Roden) trusted the effect of the Committee would be, that in future the Protestant Church would have a share in the public grant; for, was it not monstrous to give a large sum of money to educate Roman Catholics exclusively in the Roman Catholic religion, and to refuse to bestow funds for the exclusive teaching in the schools of children connected with the Protestant Church? The people of England expected that the present Government would uphold the Protestant Church, and he trusted they would not have their feelings disappointed.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, if a Committee was to be appointed on this subject, which he considered might be a prudent course if the Committee were rightly guided, his noble Friend at the head of the Government and the noble Earl who had just sat down would enter upon that inquiry upon principles entirely opposite and irreconcileable. It was satisfactory to him (Lord Monteagle) that the noble Earl at the head of the Government had announced his adhesion to the established system; and it was also another ground of satisfaction to him to remember that one of the best and most conclusive speeches which had been made in defence of this system of education was made in the other House of Parliament by a very near relative of the noble Lord at the head of the Government who had a hereditary claim to defend the national schools of Ireland. On the other hand, what was the object of the system proposed to be established by the noble Earl who last addressed the House (the Earl of Roden)? It was a strictly scriptural system of education which he recommended, leading, as the noble Earl himself had sought to prove, to an extensive amount of proselytism. It was the very system which the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) when Secretary for Ireland had condemned. He (Lord Monteagle) thought it was a fit subject for Parliamentary inquiry, whether the principles which had been adopted as the foundation of the system, had been adhered to; and if it had been altered in any respect, what were the effects of the alterations introduced. But he would remind the House, that in every year in which any alteration had taken place in the system, that alteration had
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been specifically brought under their Lordships' notice in the annual reports; and up to this time there had never been any sufficient objection raised against it. The subject was, no doubt, encompassed with difficulty. His noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) and himself, when Members of the other House of Parliament, were joint members of a Committee which inquired fully in to these schools; many of the matters which had been adverted to in the course of the present discussion were made the subject of investigation at that time. Two heavy folio volumes, containing in the evidence given before that Committee much dull theological rubbish, were printed; but the inquiry had led to no other result whatever. Let it not be supposed that he (Lord Monteagle) was not as anxious as the noble Earl (the Earl of Roden) for the diffusion of the Scriptures to those who were willing to receive them; but he said Parliament had no right, if they professed to give a common education, to interpose at the very threshold objections the result of which must be to prevent the principle of a common education being carried into practical operation. Whatever might be the modifications of which this system of education was susceptible, he prayed their Lordships not to attempt to enforce the doctrines of religion in violation of the principles of charity. The great inducement, which in many cases had led to the withdrawal of the Protestant children from the schools, had been, first, the absence of the Protestant clergyman who disapproved of the schools, or would not extend his countenance to them; and, next, the desire which those very clergymen had of seeing schools established in which the education of Protestants might be conducted separately. If they endeavoured to combine in the same system of instruction schools exclusively Catholic, and others exclusively Protestant, the system of national schools for combined instruction would inevitably fail. If they established schools exclusively Protestant, then, on the showing of his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Derby) they laid down a principle by which they were bound to establish schools exclusively Catholic. He (Lord Monteagle) would say, frankly and unreservedly, that he would never be a consenting party to placing the general education of the Irish youth exclusively under the dominion of the Irish clergy or of the Irish priesthood: such a course would be an entire violation of all the principles on which this system

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was founded. But if it was in the hands of the Irish priesthood at the present time in certain places, why was it so? Why had Protestant co-operation been with held from the national schools? Were Protestants entitled to withdraw all the Protestant children from the schools, and then to stigmatise those schools as being exclusively Roman Catholic? He wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Lord of the Treasury joy of the task each would have to encounter on presenting a separate estimate for schools exclusively Catholic, and for schools exclusively Protestant. It would be matter for surprise if the House of Commons were to vote 2,000 l. a year to the schools of the Christian Brothers, good as that education might be. Was his noble Friend at the head of the Government aware that some of his Colleagues and many of his supporters had pledged themselves against the renewal of the grant to Maynooth? Did his noble Friend dream there would be much chance of obtaining an exclusive grant for Roman Catholic schools? He (Lord Monteagle) did not think there would be any such chance, nor did he wish that there should be, seeing that it would be likely to disturb that united education and religious peace which it was desirable to maintain. The House must remember, to use the words of the Duke of Wellington, whether they liked it or not there were 6,000,000 of Roman Catholics in Ireland. He trusted that the proposed Committee would be most carefully chosen, and would confine itself within those fair limits of investigation which his noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) himself assigned to it. He (Lord Monteagle) would only make this remark in conclusion, that, for the satisfaction of the public rather than for his own, the House should reprint the original letters written by Mr. Stanley to the Duke of Leinster, in reference to the principles which Lord Grey's Government laid down for the schools in question; and he proposed to move that this should be done.
The EAEL of DONOUGHMOREthought that the system of common education, if it meant merely the education of the children of different creeds in one school, had not succeeded to any great extent in Ireland in effecting the principal object for which it had been established; for he believed that religious rancour was fully as rife at this moment in Ireland as it had been in 1832. A noble and illustrious Duke (the Duke of Wellington) had once
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used the expression in their Lordships' House, that there were 6,000,000 of Roman Catholics in Ireland, and that whether their Lordships liked it or not there these millions were. He (the Earl of Donoughmore) might suggest an analogous argument on this occasion. There were 1,600 educated gentlemen, Protestant clergymen, in Ireland. These rev. gentlemen were conscientiously opposed to the system of national education, and, whether their Lordships liked it or not, these individuals would continue to be opposed to that system. You must accept the fact: you could not alter it, or drive them from their conscientious convictions; and it was absurd to maintain that that system could be a thoroughly national system which had not obtained the sanction of persons of such influence and position. He could not perceive the peculiar difficulties which were alleged to be in the way of a satisfactory settlement of this controversy. It seemed to him that the solution of the problem was to be found in such a new system as would make the patrons of the several schools the judges of the character of the religious education which should be given, with the proviso that the minimum of religious instruction should be the reading at the stated intervals of the scriptural extracts decided upon as part of the arrangements of 1832 in reference to the national schools. Certainly such a solution would be accepted with satisfaction by the large majority of Irish Protestant clergymen. He was glad that there would be a Parliamentary Committee on the whole question; and he was not without hopes that the advocates of a change would produce such evidence before the Committee as would be calculated to have the effect of enabling the clergy of the Established Church to assist in the education of the people.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEreminded the noble Earl who preceded him, that the National Board of Education in Ireland was presided over by a prelate of the Established Church, whose great learning and whose fitness for such an office had never been disputed. If the noble Earl would look back to what had occurred in 1832, he would find that it was after communications with persons of the highest authority in the Established Church, the present system was adopted, and that the system which the noble Earl advocated was a system which had been tried and failed. It was said by another noble Earl (the Earl

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rangements should not be interfered with; and the reasons which had induced the of Roden) that if they had Protestant schools in Ireland they would get Catholic children to come to them, and they would be able to convert those children. The noble Earl approved conscientiously of that system; but he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) differed from him, and so did Parliament, and a system, not of exclusive but of united education, was established under which good, sound, conscientious Roman Catholics could be sent to the schools. He regretted that there should be a Parliamentary Committee appointed at this moment on the subject, because anything that threw the slightest doubt on the present system might have a most injurious effect in Ireland. He was sorry that it was in the other and not in that House of Parliament the Committee was to be appointed, and he trusted Government would take care that the examination was fairly conducted. Their Lordships would see that, in fact, the most Protestant part of Ireland was the place where the schools had been received with the greatest avidity, and established with the greatest success.
LORD DE ROSbegged to know what the inspectors were for? Why did they not look to the irregularities which had occurred?
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, that if the noble Lord looked to the annual reports laid before Parliament, he would see that the reports of the inspectors were there give in extensor in the appendices.
On the Motion of LORD MONTEAGLE, an Address for "Letter from the Chief Secretary of Ireland to the Duke of Leinster, dated London, October, 1831, on the Formation of a Board of Commissioners of Education in Ireland," was agreed to.
House adjourned to Thursday next.