§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read; House in Committee accordingly.
§ The DUKE of NEWCASTLEsaid, that as he had expressed very strong objections 1285 to one or two of the provisions of this Bill in the debate on the second reading, though he agreed with the general purport of the measure, it was not necessary that he should now repeat any of the arguments which he had then endeavoured to adduce. It was now his intention to propose certain Amendments, which he thought necessary and desirable. First of all, the clauses from 33 to 39 inclusive were those which constituted the Upper Chamber of the Legislature of New Zealand. He stated fully on the former occasion, when the Bill was read a second time, the great objections he had to the Upper Chamber being composed of nominees of the Government. He would not now repeat the objections which he had urged on this point on that occasion; but he would simply remind the noble Earl at the head of the Government of the practical experience we had had of the working of the system of nominee chambers, and how uniformly that experience proved the unfitness of the system for carrying on the functions of legislation. The disturbances which took place in Canada in reference to that question went strongly to prove the mischievous operation of the system. He thought, too, he could assign an additional reason against a nominee Chamber in New Zealand when he reminded their Lordships that they were now establishing a free government at the Cape of Good Hope, where the English settlers were comparatively few, but where nevertheless they were giving a far more liberal constitution in this particular respect than they now proposed to confer on New Zealand by this Bill. He did not think he need go over the grounds he stated the other night. He might just remark, generally, how utterly unlike their Lordships' House that nominee Chamber would be, and how impossible it was to plant in our distant Colonies institutions exactly such as we had in the mother country. He was confident their Lordships would obtain a better class of men by an elective system, properly restrained, both as regarded qualification and the mode of election; and with that conviction on his mind, and apprehending also the serious alarm to which the imposition of a nominee system on New Zealand would give rise in the minds of the Colonists—for that was a point on which the inhabitants of all the Colonies felt most anxious—placing, as it would, their Governor in the position in which so many previous Governors had found themselves, of being; 1286 either obliged to give way to the inevitable difficulties of the system, or to resort to the expedient of overruling the opinions and voices of the old members by the addition of new ones.—and entertaining those objections most strongly, he felt it his duty to move the omission of the 33rd Clause from the Bill—and if he should succeed in that, all the subsequent clauses down to the 39th inclusive—for the purpose of inserting the clause of the noble Earl lately at the head of the Colonial Department (Earl Grey), to which reference was made on the last occasion when the Bill was before their Lordships, and which provided that in constituting the Upper Chamber the members should be elected by the local Legislatures of the six Districts to be constituted under the provisions of this Bill.
The EARL of DESARTregretted that on the part of the Government he could not assent to the proposition of the noble Duke. It might be quite true that inconvenience had occasionally arisen from differences of opinion between the Upper and Lower Chambers; but, without seeking to compare a Legislative Council to a House of Lords, he might remark that the same inconveniences had arisen from the House of Lords and House of Commons being of different opinions, and yet nobody denied that the system worked well in the end, notwithstanding the inconvenience which occasionally accrued. What the Government wished to see in the colony of New Zealand, was not a system similar to the House of Lords—for that was impossible, and he might add Utopian—but they aimed at creating something analogous to the House of Lords; for he considered the great benefit they derived from that institution was, that they had a legislative body with certain powers, which were not liable to be affected by the influence of popular feeling. He thought they could constitute a body in the colonies, which, not being elective, would not be subject to be influenced by popular feeling, which might be transitory. It was for those reasons that he thought this clause a very valuable one, and therefore he regretted be could not accede to the proposition of his noble Friend.
§ The EARL of HARROWBYsupported the Amendment, contending that experience had proved that a nominee Chamber had no weight in the colonies, and that it was only regarded there as an instrument of the Government. His wish was 1287 that there should he two Chambers, one representing property and the other population, but that both should be elective—a system analogous to that which had been adopted in the United States with so much success.
§ The EARL of DERBYthought their Lordships would agree that there ought to be some check on a purely democratic constitution. He confessed, however great had been the admiration expressed from time to time of the American Republic, he was not desirous of framing the constitution of our Colonies upon republican models. He would rather frame them on the British than the American—rather on the monarchical than the republican principle of Government. He quite agreed with the noble Earl (the Earl of Harrowby) that it was important to have property represented as well as population; and that was precisely what would be done in New Zealand under this Bill—for the Governor of New Zealand would depart from his duty to the State if he did not take care that the members who were nominated to the Upper Chamber were men of large property and of respectability and standing, and who had a large stake in the colony of New Zealand. He confessed he did not expect to see in the Colonics in their day, nor in their sons' or grandsons' day, anything resembling the constitution of the mother country; yet he did hope that in New Zealand, which was a most important and promising colony, there would arise in time a class of men possessing large property, out of whom might be taken those who would represent the aristocratic element in the colony; and he thought, looking forward to that period, it was important that the Crown should have the power of nominating, not a body of men who would be the mere representatives of the Government of the day, but men who, being chosen personally, retained their full rights of legislation, wholly independent of the Government, for their lives, and who should not be capable of being dismissed, and who would in consequence exercise a great deal of influence both on the popular will on the one hand, and on the will of the Governor on the other; and that influence would go on extending and increasing as the aristocratic element developed itself, until it might ultimately approximate to the principles of the British Constitution. Thinking, then, that a body of men, holding their seats for life, possessed of property, and holding a stake in 1288 the colony, were a valuable check on the democratic principle, he was of opinion that it was exceedingly important that that element should not be lost sight of, and that the exercise of that valuable check should be retained in the hands of an influential body of men, such as he had described.
§ The DUKE of NEWCASTLEsaid, seeing that there were at that moment only three or four Members on the Opposition side of the House, and few independent Members on the other, he should not think of troubling their Lordships to divide on his Motion.
§ Motion negatived.
§ The DUKE of NEWCASTLE, in reference to the 58th Clause, which gave to Her Majesty the power of vetoing any Bill passed by the colonial Legislature, within two years after its receipt at the Colonial Office, said he had called the attention of their Lordships, on the second reading, to the fact that whilst the Governor's power of veto was limited to three months, that of the Colonial Office at home was fixed at two years. He thought that the same restrictions might with great safety be introduced into the power of veto of the Colonial Secretary. He believed there was a great practical inconvenience in allowing the Colonial Secretary to exercise his veto over a Bill of the colonial Legislature for so long a period as two years after its receipt by him in this country. He would move as an Amendment to Clause 58, that the power of veto proposed to be confided in the Secretary of State at home should be limited to three months, instead of two years, after his receipt of Bills from the colonial Legislature presented for Her Majesty's assent.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ The DUKE of NEWCASTLEthen suggested that the clauses for giving compensation to the New Zealand Company should be postponed, with a view to legislation in the next Session, and in order to admit of inquiry in the meantime into the allegations which had been made against the conduct and fair dealing of the Company. He would not go into the details of the subject, having so recently adverted to them when the Bill was last before the House, but would simply sum up his observations under three heads. First, there were certain charges brought against the New Zealand Company; and, without expressing any opinion as to whether those charges were just or not, there was, at any rate, a primâ 1289 facie case, which did absolutely require a full investigation; and, in the meanwhile, it was not desirable to place that Company, against which those charges were brought, in a more favourable position than it stood at present, which this Bill did, for the Company would receive 5s. for every acre of waste land sold or alienated in the colony after the passing of the measure, until their debt was paid. A second point was this—that, induced by the representations made by the New Zealand Company, the Legislature, in 1847, passed an Act, by the 19th Clause of which the Government in this country became responsible for all the claims which might be substantiated against the New Zealand Company by that class of colonists called the Nelson settlers. That Company was bound to indemnify those settlers, if any case should be made out against it, by land instead of money; and the Government would, therefore, find themselves in this most anomalous position—that if these Nelson settlers should hereafter establish their case, and it should be found that the Government had parted with the whole of the land in the colony, the Government would be obliged to repurchase of the colonial Legislature a sufficient quantity of land to indemnify those settlers. Those were two of his points—the first had reference to the general principle of justice; the second was connected with the interests of the Empire. His third point was this: He thought that unless stronger reasons could be shown than had been shown in the other House of Parliament—and none had been shown in their Lordships' House, for it had not been discussed there—it was not right towards the settlers of New Zealand that the first charge of a heavy mortgage of 268,000l odd should be imposed upon them. It was a most fearful liability to throw on them. Looking to the probability that for the present the great tide of emigration would set in towards the Australian Colonies rather than in the direction of New Zealand, they would have the interest of that mortgage perpetually increasing, and it would be in all probability the ground of future applications to the British Legislature to pay that accruing debt. He repeated, it was not expedient or fair towards the colonists to impose such a burden upon them. In doing so they made it the interest of the colonists to endeavour by every means however questionable to defeat the intentions of the Legislature by their own arrangements in reference to the sale of 1290 the lauds in question. For these three reasons he thought it was most desirable that this arrangement with the New Zealand Company should not be made, believing it would not be fair to hand over the management of the lands to the colonists, placing the New Zealand Company in a better position than that in which it at present stood, and that to impose this heavy burden upon an infant colony is neither politic nor just. Being desirous, therefore, that strict justice should be done to all parties concerned, he would now move that the clause handing over the management of the lands to the colonists should be postponed, with the view of its being considered in the next Session of Parliament.
The EARL of DESARTregretted again that he must refuse his assent, on the part of the Government, to the proposition which had been made by his noble Friend. He (the Earl of Desart) would not go into the question whether the New Zealand Company were justly liable to the charges which had been brought against them or not. He did not think that their Lordships' House was the proper place to investigate such matters; and he believed his noble Friend was of a similar opinion on that head, his object being, as he understood it, merely to prevent the New Zealand Company being placed in a better position than they now were until an inquiry had taken place. But he (the Earl of Desart) maintained that this clause would not place them in a better position than that in which they formerly stood. The New Zealand Company were willing to accept the certainty of one-fourth of the produce of the waste lands for the uncertainty which they at present possessed; and he believed that, if anything, their position in a pecuniary sense would be less profitable than hitherto. The latest accounts from the colony afforded the pleasing evidence of the speedy settlement of the land claims. The Government had made themselves liable to certain claims in 1847; and the claimants were perfectly satisfied with the operation of the different arrangements that had been carried into effect. In twelve months more Her Majesty would have the control of the waste lands; and by this Act the Government would not put himself in a worse position than it had occupied since 1847. As to the charge of fraud, he thought it would be unfair to prejudge the case. They were bound to place the New Zealand Company in such a position that they 1291 could not accuse them of having prejudged the case against them.
§ Motion negatived.
§ Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.